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President Donald Trump Denies Directing Giuliani To Talk Directly With The Ukrainian President; Taliban Appeared To Be Caught Off Guard By President Trump's Announcement; Senator Kamala Harris' Top Aides Jumps Ship To The Bloomberg Campaign. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired November 29, 2019 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: One, they have to participate. And at this point in time, as you know well, they haven't said whether or not they will. And two, they need to agree to whatever request the committee brings their way. So if the committee says we want an administration official to testify, so obviously we have seen no to across the board over the course of the last couple of months. If the White House says no, then the chairman of the judiciary, Jerry Nadler has the right to essentially remove or take away some of the privileges the House rules laid out.

So there is a lot of different dynamics that are at play here. The bottom line here is this. If the White House wants to participate at all in this House process, and as you laid out, it's moving quickly, like the final by vote by Christmas, they need to respond by end of next week if they want to participate in the hearing Wednesday. They have got a couple more days -- Ryan.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN HOST: All right. Our reporting at this point seems that they are leaning in the direction of not participating. But of course, that decision could play a big role how the impeachment process works itself out, right.

Phil Mattingly, thank you for being here. We appreciate it. .

So what should we watch for this critical weeks before the expected House vote on impeachment?

For that we go to CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson.

So Joey, let's break it down. First, there is the President's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani. This week the President said he did not direct Giuliani's actions in Ukraine despite the fact that Trumps directs Ukrainian president to quote "talk to Rudy" in that July 25th phone call.

So the next one. So will the White House -- I'm sorry. Let's talk about Rudy Giuliani. What do you think the impact is of the President's kind of misdirection as it were to Rudy Giuliani? We have had multiple witnesses testify that Rudy Giuliani was heavily involved in this. The President saying that he had nothing to do with what Rudy was up to in Ukraine. JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Ryan. Good to see you. I

think the critical inquiry is really what everyone is looking to see is whether he distances himself from him. Right? That it is the President of the United States says to Rudy and about Rudy Giuliani what he said about Michael Cohen. You know, wait a second. You know I don't know this guy really. We weren't working closely together. He has a low I.Q., et cetera. Whatever he does.

I think strategy will be fraught with difficulty. I think that you are going to see the strategic distancing from Giuliani, of course. And I think that's something you could credibly argue. Right? Giuliani is certainly, he certainly has a mind of his own. Former mayor of New York city. U.S. attorney. We knew the President will's say, certainly I gave Giuliani some directives but he is a rogue guy. Got other clients. He is independent, you know. I knew what I wanted. How he strategically got us there, that is what lawyers do. We deal with strategy all the time. Clients no nothing about it. So what he may have been doing? You know what, that is up to Rudy.

I think you will see that strategic distancing by Trump. Certainly I don't any he could throw him under the bus. Could you imagine if he did that, Ryan? This is not Michael Cohen where he is the attorney to a Trump organization. This is the President's personal lawyer who really knows where all the bodies are buried. I think that would do more harm than good.

NOBLES: And as even hinted that he has an insurance policy if for some reason Trump decided to turn against him.

JACKSON: Yes.

NOBLES: So let's talk now about Phi's reporting here about the deadline for them to decide they are going to be involved in the impeachment hearing. There is the Wednesday, the possibility they could show up and participate in Wednesday's public Judiciary Committee hearing. What do you think? Do you think the White House has any interest in being directly involved in this process?

JACKSON: No. For the two very critical reasons. One, obstruction. Right? I mean, we have seen witnesses not appearing. We are in the midst of court battles. We just got 120-page opinion, right, by judge Jackson, no relation, where she laid out the fact that presidents are not kings and presidents are not potentates. Presidents are presidents and they are certainly above the laws. Of course, we have seen that state as it relates to Don McGahn and whether he had to testify.

But the fact of the matter is we have seen repeated obstruction about witnesses not going, you know. Big question who would the White House admit to the testifying? They haven't allowed anyone to. So they have been obstructing. So now they are going to say I figure out that we are going to participate.

And the other issue, Ryan, quite clearly is they will give impeachment legitimacy. They said to this point it's illegitimate. The President is doing so well. There is an election around the corner. You just want to impeach him because the economy is rolling. People shopping for Christmas. For those two reasons, the obstruction issue and the legitimacy issue, I don't think the White House participating at all.

NOBLES: All right. Abd then, of course, the big name out there John Bolton. We saw him hint on twitter that he has more to say about this process. Unsure exactly what role the administration may keeping him from testify publicly. Do you think that we are going to hear from John Bolton in any of these impeachment hearings?

JACKSON: You know, I do not. So certainly, there could come a time in the even that the impeachment goes through and then of course it gets to the Senate, right. You talk a simple majority in the House of Representatives but then there is the trial, right. And as much as the Senate would have to try him, that is where the presiding judge, chief justice Roberts would have preside. At that point, you certainly may hear from Bolton. But as it relates to actual, the proceedings, no. He is not going to testify. He has already said as much as it relates to, again, the McGahn decision that again 120-page decision by justice Jackson saying, hey, go testify, you know. A President is not above the law. You don't have any absolute immunity. He said wait,, right, it doesn't apply to me, says Bolton people. And so, they are not using that decision to have him testify even though that decision is stayed, that is, held up until a further appellate review. So I don't do not seem him at least immediately testifying, that is, Bolton. At some point down the line in the senate should there be a trials, that's another matter and that has, you know, potential.

[15:35:50] NOBLES: All right. Pretty busy breaking news day, Joey, so we are out of time. But there is one more thing we will be watching for. And that is how the Republicans will defend the President going forward, we are going to talk about that another day, unfortunately.

But Joey Jackson, thank so much for being here. We appreciate it.

JACKSON: Thanks, Ryan.

NOBLES: Next, one of senator Kamala Harris' top aides jumps ship to the Bloomberg campaign. Details on the blistering letter she sent to colleagues on her way out.

Plus, we are getting new video of the reported stabbing incident in the Hague where several people are injured. Stand by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:40:37] NOBLES: The 2020 Democrats are returning to the campaign trail after the thanksgiving holiday, but senator Kamala Harris does so while facing new claims of mismanagement and poor treatment of campaign staffers.

The "New York Times" obtained a scathing resignation letter from her now former state operations director. In it Kelly Mehlenbacher writes quote "this is my third presidential campaign and I have never seen a staff treated so poorly. With less than 90 days until Iowa, we still don't have a real plan to win. Our campaign for the people is made up of diverse talent which is being squandered by indecision and a lack of leaders who will lead. That is unacceptable".

Austin Herndon covered the story for the "New York Times." He is also a CNN political analyst. He joins me now to talk about this.

And Austin, you talked to a lot of people close to the senator. What are they saying, I should say, is going wrong?

AUSTIN HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. Me and my colleagues talked to dozens and dozens almost 50 or more of the allies, staffers and former staffers of senator Harris, And it paints a kind of complete picture what we have seen the trajectory of this campaign be.

On one hand, this is one that entered with so much promised. Let's remember, there was the kind of historic entry, the large rally that happened in Oakland, the immediate thrust into the top tier and the big debate moment that happened in debate one. But have seen since the summer a consistent slide and kind of inconsistent messaging from the Harris campaign. And what you hear when you talk to different staffers is that that inconsistency reflects an organizational problem that there is a kind of lack of decision-makers, that there is kind of a flat organization structure, we are not one person is in charge and that can lead to messaging that can change from day to day. Policies that cannot be consistent with what they think the values are, and for voters, that is why they may be picking up a senator that may look different from one day to the next.

NOBLES: So it is interesting. You guys were able to obtain this resignation letter from Mehlenbacher. She makes a lot of accusations particularly about this recent layoffs. Now, this is a campaign that is having a money problem. Right? It is a big operation. They expected to be running a national campaign. But if they don't have the money to pay staffers what other options do they have? How should it have been handled differently?

HERNDON: Yes. There is kind of two questions at hand there. One is how did they manage the money to bring them to the point where they had to lay off staffers? But as that letter details, there is a separate question that was being asked in the campaign here. A lot of these staffers, some were brought on in New Hampshire were fired just weeks after they were brought on. And so the question is, why were they hired in the first place? What is the management level, what is the oversight level, that caused that to happen? And so, that is kind of what the letter accuses and that is kind of internally what some of the staff accuses particularly the campaign manager -- campaign chairperson of is mishandling those funds even if they weren't plentiful.

Now going forward, let's remember we still have two months until the Iowa caucus. This is still someone who has been able to raise a fair amount of money on the grassroots and then kind of the larger donor level. And what they are going for now is Iowa or bust. To beat expectations in Iowa particularly to prove viability above Joe Biden. And they are hoping that they can unlock a well of support in South Carolina and black communities and in California. But as our story states today, that is an increasingly tight window.

NOBLES: Yes. It doesn't seem like they are ready to go away yet. And there has been a lot of fluidity in this Democratic primary. Perhaps another opportunity for her to pop. But right now things definitely in a difficult position for Kamala Harris.

Austin Herndon, terrific reporting. Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate it.

And back to breaking news. The suspect killed in a terror attack in London, but not before he stubbed multiple people. Two of them have now died. We will have details, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:49:33] NOBLES: President Trump is back from Afghanistan after making an unexpected thanksgiving day visit. He met with troops at Bagram air force base in Afghanistan and made a surprising announcement that peace talks with the Taliban have restarted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Taliban wants to make a deal. We will see if they want to make a deal. It's got to be a real deal but we will see.

The Taliban wants to make a deal and we are meeting with them and we are saying it has to be a ceasefire. And they didn't want to do a ceasefire but now they want to do a ceasefire. I believe it will probably work out that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:50:07] NOBLES: The only problem is that Taliban appeared to be caught off guard by President Trump's comments. A spokesman from the militant group telling CNN quote "our policy regarding peace talks is the same as it was -- the same as it was. If America wants talks would resume from the point where the they stopped."

With me now is David Rohde. He is the executive editor for the "New Yorker" website and a CNN global affairs analyst. He was kidnapped by the Taliban in 2008 and held more than seven months before escaping.

So obviously some unique insight into this particular topic, David. Thank you so much for joining us.

So you know, President Trump saying the U.S. is meeting with the Taliban, that appears to come as news to the Taliban. What do you make of all of this?

DAVID ROHDE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: First of all, I want to say I hope the President succeeded in brokering a peace deal in Afghanistan. That the war is going on so long there. So many American soldiers have died. And so many Afghans continue to die. It looks like the President, you know, didn't listen to his aides.

And that is the problem with his presidency. There has never been an agreement from the Taliban from a ceasefire. They never said they wanted a ceasefire. There was an agreement in September. The outlines of one that involved a partial Taliban ceasefire in exchange for gradual withdrawal of U.S. troops. So I'm not sure what the President was talking about yesterday in Afghanistan.

NOBLES: He is also been a little inconsistent about just how big of a U.S. security presence will exist in Afghanistan for the long term. He is now saying U.S. troops will stay until a deal made. He said in the past that everybody is pulled out. I mean, could see a scenario where the U.S. could safely pull out all of its troops and this art of the deal negotiating style is something that actually works with the Taliban.

ROHDE: Well there was. I want to praise the work of the main U.S. negotiator. His name is (INAUDIBLE). He is a special representative to Afghanistan right now. And again, he had brokered this deal in September that President Trump sort of called off all of a sudden. And the President claimed then that the Taliban were coming to camp David. The Taliban said they never agreed to that.

So there is an opportunity here. And I would, you know, if the President would sort of listen to ambassador Khalilzat and others and that is how a deal could work. It would involve an initial U.S. pullout. There will then be direct negotiations between the Afghan government and the Taliban. But all U.S. troops would not pull out I believe until there will be a full and comprehensive peace agreement.

NOBLES: Now on a separate topic but somewhat related to the conversation in Afghanistan. The Trump administration now substantially cutting the U.S. contribution to the NATO budget. This comes ahead of next week's NATO trip. What do you make of the timing of this move?

ROHDE: It is another effort to be tough on the U.S. allies in Europe. I think, you know, it aids the President domestically but doesn't have the U.S. in Afghanistan either. There are NATO troops there that have been helping U.S. forces for a long time. And it's part of the sort of combative approach to diplomacy that the President tried to use.

It is not working. NATO is not responding well. There is no peace deal with North Korea, you know. And now there is no deal with the Taliban. And the President, you know, those kind of deals would help him in his reelection effort. So less combativeness and listening more to aides and more sort of traditional diplomacy, you know, could help with reelection.

NOBLES: So then, by cutting the NATO budget though, does President Trump actually help Vladimir Putin?

ROHDE: He does. I mean, it places in this narrative of dividing the NATO alliance. That is exactly what Putin wants. Pulling U.S. troops out of Syria, again that is what Putin wants. And that sort of thing, pulling troops out of Syria would no sort of plan to makes the Taliban sort of wait this out. And it is these kind of, you know, rash, inconsistent actions, tweeting you know, major decisions that leads adversaries to frankly not fear President Trump. They think they could wait him out. They think he may not win reelection and it is an unfortunate situation. But again there is still time for a new approach.

NOBLES: All right. David Rohde, terrific insight as always. Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate it.

ROHDE: Thank you.

NOBLES: And we are staying on the breaking news out of European as new video comes in of the reported stabbing incident in the Hague. At least three people hurt at a Christmas market there. Stand by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:59:13] NOBLES: Let's take a moment to honor this week's CNN hero.

After losing her dad to cancer when she was just 14, Mary Robinson struggled with depression for years. But now she is dedicated to her life to providing free year-round help to grieving families so that other children don't loose precious time to unresolved grief.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Bella and my dad died.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kids in grief are kids at risk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Jaden and my mom died.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Time does not heal all wounds. Time helps but it is what you do with that time and what you need to do is mourn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you hear other people's stories it kind of brings comfort.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So that's why a place like "imagine" exists to give children a place to mourn their loss and find out that they are not alone.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[14:00:00] NOBLES: Mary helped more than 700 families in New Jersey. To vote for her or any of our top ten finalist go to CNNheroes.com.

And that does it for me. Thank you so much for watching.