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House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler Offers President Trump Opportunity To Participate In Impeachment Hearings; Rep. John Garamendi (D-CA) Is Interviewed On House Impeachment Inquiry And Presidential Candidacy Of Joe Biden; Civilians Subdue Terrorist In London; Joe Biden To Campaign In Iowa; Search For Children Swept Away In Flood Waters In Arizona Turns Up Two Dead And One Still Missing; U.S. Supreme Court Blocks Appeals Court Ruling For President Trump's Accountants To Turn Over Financial Records To House Investigators; National Institutes Of Health Working On Universal Flu Vaccine. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired November 30, 2019 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:01:38]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

The White House is set to make a key decision for this impeachment inquiry. Democrats on the Judiciary Committee are giving the administration until tomorrow to determine if it wants to have attorneys take part in the first hearing on Wednesday. House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler also set a new deadline, giving the White House until Friday to decide if it will participate in any of the committee hearings. President Trump weighing his options this holiday weekend at his Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is in West Palm Beach this morning, or this afternoon, I should say. Jeremy, so has the decision been made?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, Fredricka, we are 28 hours now away from that first deadline tomorrow for the White House to decide whether the president will send any attorneys to attend this first impeachment hearing from the House Judiciary Committee, which is scheduled on Wednesday. So far sources have told us that the White House was leaning against sending attorneys to that first hearing, but a final decision, Fred, has not yet been made.

But the more critical deadline, really, will come at the end of next week, and that is on Friday when the White House must decide whether or not they will participate in any of the impeachment proceedings being carried out by the House Judiciary Committee, which is of course responsible for actually drafting those articles of impeachment against the president.

And here is the question facing the White House essentially -- will they participate and perhaps risk legitimizing these proceedings, which the president has repeatedly slammed as a hoax, as a scam, as a witch hunt, and denigrated throughout the process, or will they opt to participate? After all, one of the top criticisms from the White House and from the president himself has been their inability to participate in the proceedings thus far, that is, those that were being carried out by the House Intelligence Committee.

The president himself, had even tweeted and talked about the fact that he was not able to have any attorneys present. And yet now that they do have that opportunity being extended, the White House so far has not made a decision. An administration official told us yesterday that the president, that the White House, was reviewing the letter from the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Gerald Nadler, and reviewing whether or not they would indeed send an attorney. So that decision has not yet been made.

Either way, though, Fred, the president will not be present when the House Judiciary Committee holds its first hearing on Wednesday. The president will be out of the country in London for a NATO summit. Fred?

WHITFIELD: Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much, in West Palm Beach.

Earlier today, I spoke with Democratic Congressman John Garamendi of California about the upcoming impeachment hearings and 2020.

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WHITFIELD: Next week your colleagues in the House Judiciary Committee will their proceedings. What do you expect will happen? What are you hoping to learn?

REP. JOHN GARAMENDI, (D-CA): Well, the important thing we're going to learn this coming week is what an impeachment is all about? What are the standards for impeachment? What is the history? What is the Constitution? All of those things are going to be laid out in the first hearing.

It's going to be exceedingly important for the American public to understand the particular clause in the Constitution that calls for impeachment of an official, president or other official of government, who is acting beyond the best interests of this nation. Perhaps it's bribery, treason, or acting in their own self-interest, not in the interest of the American public and the American state.

[14:05:08]

So that's going to be laid out, very, very important foundational knowledge for the American public to pay attention to what this is all about.

WHITFIELD: You had seen recent polling showed that half of Americans polled believe that the president should be impeached and even removed from office. But are you concerned that even as it enters this next phase that people are fatigued by the process and perhaps may not be fully engaged? GARAMENDI: I think they will become more engaged. They certainly

became more engaged through the two weeks of hearing that the Intelligence Committee had. This will be another piece of the puzzle going forward. And the American public is very, very concerned. They may, 50 percent or more, support impeachment and removal.

The really important matter here is for the American public to understand the offenses that Trump has committed in Ukraine and beyond, the coverups, the obstruction of justice, all of those will be laid out in the week ahead. Will it move the American public? We'll see. But clearly this president is operating in a way we have never, ever seen before, even with Nixon.

WHITFIELD: And in all of this, the White House has an opportunity to participate in these hearings. They have stonewalled past requests for witnesses and documents. Why is it important that the White House be involved? And do you believe that they will take up on this offer?

GARAMENDI: Well, one of the defenses that the White House has continually made is that this is an improper inquiry in which they've not had a chance to participate. That's simply never been true, and now clearly the invitation went to the president and to the president's lawyer to participate in the Judiciary Committee hearings.

And in the previous intelligence Committee hearings, certainly the Republicans had equal time with their own counsel and with each of the members of the Republican minority being able to participate in those hearings. So it really puts to a lie the White House's strategy.

WHITFIELD: Many Americans see this upcoming 2020 presidential election as a less divisive way in which to hold the president accountable. Do you believe that people will appreciate this phase prior to Election Day in which they could express whether they want this president in or out of office?

GARAMENDI: Well, we'll see where the impeachment goes itself, and the trial in the Senate, should it come to that, what will come of all of that. But clearly the American public is learning what the president is all about, what he's done in Ukraine, jeopardizing our national security for his own election benefit, trying to strongarm, to bribe Ukraine to help him -- to help a foreign government interfere in an American election, which clearly was what was going on in 2016 with Russia.

And also, the president is actively deflecting the known fact that Russia involved itself, tried to influence the American election in 2016, by saying, oh, no, it was Ukraine all along. This is simply a deflection, and, frankly, a terrible disservice to our upcoming election, where we know from American intelligence agencies and foreign intelligence agencies that Russia is already involving itself in the American 2020 election.

WHITFIELD: And now 11 months out from the presidential general election, and speaking of 2020, you have yet to endorse a Democratic candidate. Have you made up your mind? GARAMENDI: I certainly have. I want Joe Biden to be our next

president. I want somebody that comes from the middle class, from the working American, to be our president, that understands what it is to try to make it in America as a family working in a factory on a construction job or an office, trying to put together the necessary resources to educate their kids, to provide their health care.

That's Joe Biden. That's where he has been through his entire career, standing shoulder to shoulder with Obama during those eight years, caring about our veterans, caring about the working men and women. So yes, I'm all in for Joe Biden.

WHITFIELD: Was there something that has transpired over the last couple of months that has cemented your view? You listened to some of the critics, whether it be in the Democratic Party or even beyond about Biden that he may not -- questioning whether he's relevant, whether he is in step and in tune with the American public, spanning so many generations. What is it, or is there a moment that solidified it for you?

GARAMENDI: I think it's -- I've been watching all the candidates. The Democratic candidates are terrific, each and every one, bringing to the debate very, very important issues.

[14:10:07]

But what really cements it for me is that this government under the Trump administration is total chaos. The Department of Defense, Homeland Security, you name it, every single one of the agencies of the government have been taken down, largely disassembled, and in chaos. We need a president that can put this ship of state back in its correct order, so that we have a government that actually functions. And Joe Biden has that experience.

WHITFIELD: So you see Joe Biden as a mender?

GARAMENDI: Absolutely. Not a divider. One nation under God, I'm sure that's what Joe Biden has believed for his entire life as I've watched him over the years, one nation under God, that's where he is coming from. And he can pull us together, not divide us, but find the common threads of this nation's future and pull us in the direction we can all be together. We have seen the most divisive president ever, ever in our history, really tearing us apart. We got to end that. Joe Biden can do that better than any other person that is running for president.

WHITFIELD: And you see him as the most viable candidate in which to take on the incumbent president?

GARAMENDI: Absolutely. The debates will be something -- Trump is just vicious. He is vicious. He's a bully. Joe Biden has been in government, vice president, with world leaders, understanding what it takes to stand tall as a leader. Next to this divisive bully called Trump, he's going to do very, very well.

WHITFIELD: Congressman John Garamendi, thank you so much for covering so many bases today for us.

GARAMENDI: Thank you, Fredricka.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Still to come, a remarkable takedown of a terror suspect, all with the help of a fire extinguisher and a whale tusk? We go live to London.

And a desperate search to find three children in this country who are missing after their vehicle was caught in fast-moving floodwaters in Arizona. Details next.

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WHITFIELD: All right, we continue to follow new development in the London terror attacks and the heroic attacks of bystanders who likely prevented further carnage. This is video of the surreal moment brave witnesses confronted the armed attacker who had already stabbed two people to death, one man spraying the suspect with a fire extinguisher, another armed with a narwhal whale tusk that witnesses say was grabbed off the wall of the historic Fishmonger Hall, a popular market and meeting spot where that attack started.

Moments after tackling the man to the ground, police arrived on the scene and shot the suspect to death. Investigators believe the attacker acted alone.

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ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER NEIL BASU, U.K. METROPOLITAN POLICE: At this time, we found no evidence, no evidence to suggest anybody else was involved in this attack. However, we're still making extensive inquiries to ensure that no one else was involved. Our investigative priority at this time is to ensure that there is no one relate as an outstanding threat to the public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Mark Bolton is in London for us. So Mark, what more are you learning about this attack?

MARK BOLTON, JOURNALIST: As we just heard, we know it's a solo attack, at least that's what the police are telling us. And that, of course, is the worst-case scenario for them. For them, they have thousands of potential terrorists in the country which they keep tabs on every single day.

But that lone wolf, that individual who at a moment can just change their mind and act, not immediately on the moment, but with very little planning, it's very difficult to detect for the services. And of course, the background to this case means that the scrutiny will be great in terms of what he was doing in the public domain and out and about amongst the British public in the first place. He was convicted just 19 in 2012 for his part in the London Stock

Exchange plot, a plot to place pipe bombs under the London Stock Exchange and other high-profile locations. It was foiled, of course, but on being sentenced, he was said to be a serious jihadist and a man who should not to be released from prison until such time that it was ascertained that it was safe to do so for the British public.

He was given an indeterminate sentence, an open-ended sentence, essentially, until a review could conduct and ascertain that he was safe to go. But on appeal in 2013, that sentence was quashed. He was given a fixed term, and that is the basis upon which he was released early, less than half of the time served of the 16-year sentence that was placed upon him. One of the conditions of that was to wear an electronic tag. So he had conditions about his parole or bail, and also the manner in which he went about his business. He was known to police.

That's caused great consternation amongst the public, who are somewhat here not accepting of the fact that in this day and age there will be the occasional act of terror, but stoic in their approach to it. I think they know that occasionally someone will slip through the loop when such big numbers of potential terrorists are involved.

The question is how big that loop should be. There will be mistakes. There will be gaps in security. But when the British public now that a man convicted, who was said should not be released until such time it was absolutely proven he was rehabilitated, wasn't tested before release, do they have a right to feel aggrieved at this? Many believe they absolutely do.

WHITFIELD: All right, Mark Bolton in London, thank you so much.

All right, coming up this week on CNN, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi will take questions on impeachment, the 2020 election, and more in a live town hall moderate by Jake Tapper. That's Thursday night, 9:00 Eastern, right here on CNN.

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[14:23:00]

WHITFIELD: We're following breaking news out of the Arizona where we have just learned that two children have been found dead where a flash flood swept them away, one still missing. The kids were in a vehicle that was trying to cross a creek that was caught in the floodwaters. Natasha Chen joining me now with what we are learning. Terrible, sad news.

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, and we're just learning this in the last few minutes. The Gila County Sheriff's Office in Arizona just sent us that update to the newsroom about these two children found dead and one still missing. Now they've been searching since yesterday afternoon when this happened at around 4:00 local time.

They are part of -- these kids were part of a group of nine people who were in a military-style vehicle, and when the deputies arrived on scene, they said that the vehicle was almost completely submerged. Most of the people got out OK. They had to rescue two adults and four children, so they were looking for remaining three. Now they are telling us two out of those three they have found dead, one still missing.

This is all part of very dangerous weather that people have had to contend with over the Thanksgiving holiday. On the west coast especially we've seen some high winds, power outages, snow in mountain passes, other flooding happening in places like San Diego.

And if we have some video of the semitruck in Colorado that we saw from high winds just tipping over on the side of the highway. There you see it right there. That's the moment it gtips over like that from the high winds. That high wind warning is still in effect throuh this afternoon.

Now, looking ahead, we are going to be seeing snowstorm really hit the northeast tomorrow. Massachusetts is expecting maybe up to 12 inches of snow. New York state expecting up to two feet in places like the Catskills.

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And that's all coming from this system on the west coast that's already wreaked havoc there. So it's just moving eastward towards the northeast. And of course, Fred, we know that tomorrow is such a busy travel day. So people are going to have to pack some patience, and we know that some airlines --

WHITFIELD: And flexibility.

CHEN: And flexibility. American Airlines is among those that have already talked about travel waivers beginning tomorrow. So everybody going home tomorrow, just take it easy, weather will definitely be an issue.

WHITFIELD: And take advantage of those wafers if you got it. Natasha Chen, thank you so much, appreciate that.

CHEN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All eyes on Iowa for Joe Biden as the campaign hopes to recapture momentum in that state. Live to Iowa and the "No Malarkey" bus tour, next.

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[14:30:00]

WHITFIELD: All right, next hour former vice president Joe Biden will kick off an eight-day 18-county Iowa bus tour. The goal, connect with voters, recapture momentum and boost support in this first in the nation voting state.

Biden campaign officials say the Iowa swing, which they are calling the "No Malarkey" tour, symbolizes the next phase of the campaign where it's the sprint to the finish. CNN political reporter Arlette Saenz is in Council Bluffs, Iowa, right in front of the No Malarkey bus. So what have you heard about how this tour will go and how catchy it might be, et cetera?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, Fred, it's certainly going to be a jampacked week for Joe Biden here in Iowa. As you said, he's going to be spending eight days hitting 18 counties on that No Malarkey bus right behind me. And a campaign official that I spoke with said that really this is part of the next phase of the campaign when people are starting to tune in a little bit more after Thanksgiving and really start to focus as we're a little over 60 days out from the Iowa caucuses.

So Joe Biden is going to be blanketing the state really. If you take a look at where he's going, he's starting off here in Council Bluffs in the western part of the state. He's going to be hitting some rural and in small town areas as he makes his way through Iowa until Saturday.

This, of course, is all coming as the state of the race here in Iowa is a little jumbled. Joe Biden is the frontrunner in national polls, but when you look at the race here in Iowa it's a bit of a different picture. Just two weeks ago a CNN/"Des Moines Register" poll showed that Pete Buttigieg is the clear leader right now in this state. And then it's a battle for second place between Joe Biden, Elizabeth Warren, and Bernie Sanders.

Biden's campaign in the past has said that Iowa is not necessarily a must-win for them, but this tour shows the emphasis that they are trying to place on the state. One thing that they really want to do is get Joe Biden in front of as many voters as possible. As one campaign official told me, the more Joe Biden is one on one with voters, the better it is for his campaign. Fred?

WHITFIELD: Arlette Saenz, thank you so much.

For more now, let's talk further on the Iowa blitz of the Joe Biden campaign. I want to bring in national politics reporter for Yahoo News Brittany Shepherd, and CNN political analyst Margaret Talev. Good to see you both, happy Thanksgiving weekend.

MARGARET TALEV, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, BLOOMBERG NEWS: Happy Thanksgiving.

BRITTANY SHEPHERD, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, YAHOO NEWS: Happy Thanksgiving.

WHITFIELD: So Margaret, you first. What are the most important themes and policies that Biden needs to focus when he's on this No Malarkey bus tour?

TALEV: Fred, a big part of what he has to do is convince Iowa voters, and I'm going to say middle-aged and older Iowa voters here, that he is the better alternative to Mayor Pete Buttigieg if you're looking for kind of the moderate centrist Democratic path. And I say that because most college aged students probably have to Google the word "malarkey."

WHITFIELD: They don't know what "no malarkey" means.

TALEV: And so I think the branding of the bus tour is a clue as to who he is trying to reach out to. But he is trying to show Iowa voters that what the national polls still show, which is that he's the frontrunner, are actually true. Of course, as we all know, national polls sometimes don't mirror what's happening in individual states. But Joe Biden's case has always been that he's the strongest contender to take on Donald Trump in the general election. He may not have to place first in Iowa. He's probably got to place in the top three.

WHITFIELD: So Brittany, do you agree with that, that the title in and of itself, no malarkey, he really is targeting the middle-aged and older voters in Iowa because they're the ones who would carry it?

SHEPHERD: Absolutely. Of course, younger voters might not be familiar with "malarkey," but also a lot of young voters are not really standing for Joe Biden. His campaign always says that Joe Biden is the strongest coalition builder. But his greatest Achilles across every early state has been young voters.

And I think what they're trying to do is not just flip Iowa voters on Pete, but also retain voters in early states. So it's kind of this hard-earned theory that people who get black voters in Iowa will retain those black voters in South Carolina and other early states. And that's really where we Joe Biden have a breakaway lead.

So you think about national polling, this time last cycle with Republicans, Jeb Bush was right here at the front too. So with that grain of salt, it's not just about being number one in every state but telling other states and other voters in other states that, look, you can remain with me and maybe not flip to far left or even left of center alternatives.

WHITFIELD: Let's talk about another candidate who was doing really well at the very beginning, maybe stacking up right up in the middle, and now just very low on most of the polling, I'm talking about Kamala Harris. And then there's a new piece in "The New York Times" that examines what it calls the missteps in her campaign.

It reads in part, "So for much of the year she focused on competing against Biden in South Carolina and beyond. What her campaign did not anticipate was that Mr. Biden would remain strong with many black voters, and that Senator Elizabeth Warren and Mayo Pete Buttigieg would rise as threats in Iowa and New Hampshire."

[14:35:08]

And Margaret, there is a lot of criticism in this write about who is leading her campaign, i.e., her sister is the primary campaign manager, and a lot of other folks within the staff feel uncomfortable with being able to challenge her, and that is to the detriment in the Harris campaign. Is it your view that it's going to be difficult for her to regain the momentum that she had early on? TALEV: Well, it's certainly going to be difficult. And she's been

sort of on that difficult path -- this didn't just happen -- since August or September this has been true. And I think what's very interesting about the analysis that you just read was that, indeed, it was not the Biden factor that she didn't anticipate. It was the Pete Buttigieg, Elizabeth Warren factor.

When you have a field with 18 or so candidates, at one point in the low 20s, it's very hard to predict how those paths are going to break and what your window is, what the pocket of the most opportunity is. When there are organizational problems in the campaign or fundraising challenges, it adds to that. But it's just been, as it was for the many Republican candidates in 2016, very hard to predict how to play at what your strategy should be in this sort of field.

And what's been frustrating for so many I think inside those Democratic coalitions is that African-American voters make up such of an important part of the Democratic voting base, and yet the African- American candidates in this race have had more trouble breaking through than many of those candidates with their resumes and their expertise and their messages expected to have.

WHITFIELD: Yes, and that is curious. Brittany, you wrote a piece this week asking, can young black voters save Mayor Pete? And that's an extraordinary question because he does not seem to resonate among black voters as a whole. Why do you focus on the young black voters? Why might he stand a better chance appealing to them?

SHEPHERD: Well, when you're polling zero percent to four percent with black voters overall in South Carolina, you have to scramble for a way into that electorate. And the young voters and young black voters are more likely to identify as moderate, more likely that they're not happy with the current frontrunner or the folks who are in second and third place. And they are a lot more willing to caucus later on in the season. This is all according to some data that I reviewed from the Harvard Institute of Politics.

And so there is a bit of an opening for Pete here, for young voters to not just vote themselves but to tell their parents, their grandparents, their peers, I call it carpool caucusing, about a candidate they are interested and invigorated by. And in that way, there is a way to kind of break some of the glass ceilings that Pete is facing with black voters.

WHITFIELD: Fascinating. Brittany Shepherd, Margaret Talev, good to see you both. Have a great rest of the holiday weekend.

TALEV: You too.

WHITFIELD: Still to come, an Indiana grandfather is breaking his silence nearly six months after his young granddaughter died when she fell from a cruise ship window. His emotional interview, next.

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[14:42:13] WHITFIELD: Welcome back. The grandfather accused of negligent homicide for dropping his granddaughter out of the 11th floor window of a cruise ship is speaking out. Chloe Wiegand died in the incident back in July while the ship was docked in Puerto Rico. The family says her grandfather was playing with her and sat her on a rail near an open window. He claims he didn't realize the window was open, but prosecutors say he negligently exposed the child to danger through that window. Salvador Anello described the incident to CBS this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SALVATORE ANELLO, GRANDFATHER OF CHLOE WEIGAND: She down looking out the window and the glass. I bent down by her. And we always, like whenever we were at hockey games, we would bang on the glass and it was fun. So when I knelt down to be with her at that level, I couldn't reach the glass really, only with my fingertips, so I knew she couldn't. So that's when I decided I'd pick her up. So I was trying to stand her on the railing, and it happened in seconds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you show me how you were holding her? Like was it kind of a bear hug?

ANELLO: Kind of. Yes. I was trying to hold her like that, from what I remember. I had her, and I was trying to knock on the glass. And at that point I'm like, I'm going to have to lean further for her to be able to reach it because, I thought it was further out than I expected.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had one arm around her, and the other arm you were trying to knock on the glass?

ANELLO: At one point, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

ANELLO: And I think that's the point where she slipped out of me. At no point during that whole incident did I think that, oh, she fell out. It was like -- it was unbelievable. It's like it disappeared. It's like the glass disappeared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Anello's next court hearing is set for December 17th.

The U.S. Supreme Court delivered a victory to President Trump this week when it temporarily blocked an appeals court ruling that would have forced Trump's accountants to turn over his financial records to House investigators. The president's lawyers now have until Thursday to file a petition for why the Supreme Court should hear the case. I want to talk this over with Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor, and Richard Herman, a criminal defense attorney and law professor. Good to see you both. Happy Thanksgiving weekend.

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Happy Thanksgiving.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Happy Thanksgiving to you.

WHITFIELD: We're grateful that you're with us this weekend. Thank you so much.

So Richard, you first. Should the U.S. Supreme Court take on this case?

HERMAN: They should not take on this case, Fred. And we're going to find out real soon whether this United States Supreme Court is truly an independent branch of government or a political tool. We'll find that out.

[14:45:02]

He has stacked, the president has stacked this court with some friends of his, and we're going to see. It's all going to come down to Justice Roberts. He's the one that's going to make the ultimate determination. But this temporary stay, this is not a victory for the president, Fred. It's very temporary. It was expected. It's just to hold the status quo.

And it does not give you an idea at all ultimately how the case will be resolved. And I do not believe that the Supreme Court will take any of these cases. They should not. It has no bearing up there. It's a basic decision in New York. The Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit locked it down airtight. There's no way this court should take these appeals.

WHITFIELD: So then, Avery, what do you believe the U.S. Supreme Court is considering when it makes a decision whether to take this on or not?

FRIEDMAN: I think this obviously was a very powerful legal week. Again, the Second Circuit Federal Court of Appeals saying the district attorney in New York has the right to subpoena the records, and also the House Oversight Committee subpoena. That's the one that was held up.

And I really do think that it's legitimate to take the case. I think ultimately, though, ultimately the decision will be against the president. In other words, there's nothing wrong with accepting, looking at the question of presidential authority, presidential immunity. That's perfectly fine. The bottom-line, though, is we're dealing with private records of a private citizen. I think the court will take the case, and I think they will decide against the president.

WHITFIELD: Interesting. So Richard, one of the arguments we have heard, or even that the justices might hear if they end up taking it, that precedent has already been set so there is no need for this body to even take up the case. Do you think that argument has merit?

HERMAN: No. It's ridiculous, like all the arguments by the president. Fred, he has lost on every lower court decision through all of the appellate processes in all the states. He's losing everywhere. This is not -- this is not something that's even like should be up for discussion. It's black and white. But with President Trump, nothing is black and white because there's always that gray area, or he gets away with abusing the law.

WHITFIELD: But this does further --

HERMAN: That's what he's doing.

FRIEDMAN: No, no, no.

WHITFIELD: And this does further delay any release of those records.

HERMAN: This will delay because if the Supreme Court takes this case, Fred, you can forget about seeing these returns for another year, easy.

FRIEDMAN: I don't agree with that. That's not right. You've got --

HERMAN: It is right.

FRIEDMAN: -- two Supreme Court decisions, one involving Richard Nixon, another one involving Bill Clinton. The question is their behavior. That's what the case deals with. It's OK for the Supreme Court to look at it. I think they're going to deny it.

I don't think it's going to interfere with the people's right to ultimately choose. And I think the court is not a bunch of his friends, as you said. These are independent members of a separate branch of government. At the end of the day they should take the case, and they will rule against the president. It's very simple.

WHITFIELD: Richard, you sound exasperated.

HERMAN: You have to click your heels together, Avery. You've got to come back to reality and see what's going on here.

FRIEDMAN: Oh yes?

HERMAN: He has stacked the Supreme Court. He has stacked federal district courts throughout the country. This is a different breed. This is a different world we're living in right now. I don't believe the Supreme Court is independent. We'll find out real soon. We'll see where Kavanaugh goes on these decisions, and Gorsuch, and we'll see where they go on these decisions.

WHITFIELD: All right, we shall see.

FRIEDMAN: Have faith. Have faith.

WHITFIELD: Avery, Richard, always appreciate you.

HERMAN: Have faith. Always have faith.

FRIEDMAN: Take care.

WHITFIELD: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

FRIEDMAN: All the best. Take care.

WHITFIELD: All right, still ahead, flu season, it's already in full swing, but the flu vaccine isn't as effective for everyone. Coming up, why some doctors say that flu shot needs to be fixed.

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[14:52:41]

WHITFIELD: A look at our top stories right now. A teenager in Indiana has died after she was shot in the back while driving her car. Police say a backseat passenger is responsible for firing an AR-15 style rifle and killing 19-year-old Annalysa McMillan. This happened in Marion, Indiana, on Tuesday. The backseat passenger, 22-year-old Austin Smith has been charged with reckless homicide and criminal recklessness while armed with a deadly weapon. McMillan's pastor described her as a bubbly person with a bright future.

And six people in a minivan were rescued Friday after driving down a flooded road. This happened in San Diego. Thankfully no one was hurt. It happened on a popular road leaving a nearby mall, which was closed due to rising water levels. Police say the car was driven by a ride share driver who picked up the group from the mall, and they were visiting from outside of the country.

All right, it's flu season and it's not too late to get your flu shot even though it only protects against certain strains of the virus. But soon you may not even need to get a shot every year. Here's CNN's Elizabeth Cohen.

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ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Two-year-old Jude (ph) McGee (ph), 26-year-old newlywed Katie (ph) McQuestion (ph), Gianna (ph) Cabasag (ph), a four-year-old little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her heart stopped beating.

COHEN: They all died of the flu, and they'd all had flu shots.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just relax your arm. No, relax your arm. You're OK. Done. Look at that.

COHEN: There's no question, you should get a flu shot. Last flu season the flu killed at least 36,000 people, so this shot could literally save your life. But it's far from perfect.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Even on a good year, influenza effectiveness of the vaccine is about 60 percent. On a bad year it's as low as 10 percent.

COHEN: Do we need to make a better flu vaccine?

FAUCI: We really absolutely do.

COHEN: In September President Trump signed an executive order, noting that the current system for making flu shots has critical shortcomings. The order pledges to modernize the process. The first step, stop using eggs to make flu vaccine. They grow the virus in the eggs, like the eggs you eat for breakfast, and then they kill the virus and put it in a vaccine.

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But sometimes the virus changes inside the egg, so it doesn't end up matching the flu that's out there spreading among people. That's why some companies like this one have figured out ways to grow the flu virus without using eggs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here we are cells growing the virus, the virus stays be the same, and when you make the vaccine it looks closer to what's in the wild.

COHEN: So no eggs here anywhere?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No eggs here.

COHEN: Trump's executive order to designed to encourage more of this technology, and something even bigger, something researchers have been working on for years, a flu vaccine you would get once in your life instead of once every year. Karen Crany (ph) is one of the first people in the world to get what's called the universal flu shot as part of a study at the National Institutes of Health. The shot is prepped, and medical history is made. A universal flu shot is at least a decade away.

FAUCI: It's complicated. It's not going to be easy. But we're starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

COHEN: So for now get your regular flu shot to protect yourself and everyone around you while we wait for something even better.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Bethesda, Maryland.

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WHITFIELD: So much more straight ahead in the NEWSROOM, and it all starts after a short break. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. See you tomorrow.

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