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Bystanders Confront Attacker with Narwhal Tusk and Fire Extinguisher; White House Faces New Deadline Ahead of Hearings; Iraq's Prime Minister Resigns in Response to Ongoing Protests; War in Syria; Joe Biden to Campaign in Iowa; Destigmatizing HIV. Aired 4-5a ET
Aired December 01, 2019 - 04:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[04:00:00]
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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): We are learning more about the victims and the heroes involved in the London terror attack.
Outrage in Iraq as protesters clash with police and they celebrate the prime minister's promise to resign.
Also, wicked winter weather. Parts of the U.S. getting pummeled on the busiest travel day of the year.
And welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. Live in Atlanta, I'm Michael Holmes here at CNN World Headquarters. CNN NEWSROOM starts right now.
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HOLMES: Welcome, everyone.
British media reporting the justice ministry is reviewing every parolee. The action comes after a convicted terrorist on parole stabbed five people near London Bridge on Friday. Video shows bystanders rushing the man with a fire extinguisher and a long narwhal tusk. He was later shot and killed by police moments later.
Mike Bolton covering the story for us in London.
Bring us up to date on the investigation. And, of course, we're learning about at least one of the victims.
MARK BOLTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We've been told one of the victims killed on Friday was a 25-year-old man, Jack Merritt, a graduate of Cambridge University who was on site. A released prisoner, he was trying to help rehabilitate others.
His father has spoken of him having a beautiful soul. He said he was a champion of the underdogs, hence the reason he was involved in rehabilitation. He had a wonderful and brilliant spirit.
Others involved, those who had become friends of his because of the rehabilitation, talked highly of his character. One saying he stood by me when society didn't. That adds to the sadness of this whole thing.
Events put on to help those who try to improve their lives. One of those people turns and kills one of those trying to help. We know also there was another woman killed and three people are in hospital still. NHS said one of those three people's conditions have improved.
So all three are stable. One man and two women are still being treated in London's hospitals.
HOLMES: With this review of other cases that we just mentioned and various comments by politicians, is this going to be coming -- or has it become a political issue with the upcoming elections?
BOLTON: You know all too well, Michael, it will. Generally there is a period of grace, where people pay tribute to those services and the individual acts of bravery we saw on Friday. Then the political fallout comes.
Well, there is a general election in less than two weeks so no grace period. Political point scoring has begun already. Boris Johnson said yesterday tariffs should be served in full. Khan served less than half of his sentence. Johnson said he wants to clamp down on that.
The difference we understand being that Khan was believed to be wearing a suicide vest, so he still posed a threat. In Northern Ireland, the shoot to kill policy was criticized when the assailants could be detained instead.
I think generally people feel the criminal justice system has some major loopholes that need filling. This will no doubt now be front and center stage of the rest of the general election campaign between now and December 12th.
HOLMES: Thank you, Mark, Mark Bolton reporting there.
Fawaz Gerges teaches at the London School of Economics and joins us now to talk more about this.
Khan was a man at a conference, focusing on the rehabilitation of prisoners.
[04:05:00]
HOLMES: It clearly did not work with him.
What are the challenges of deradicalization?
What makes it work, what makes it fail?
FAWAZ GERGES, DIR. MIDDLE EAST CENTER, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: It is extremely difficult to say what are the drivers behind deradicalization. There is no magical wand. It depends on every particular case.
The record is extremely -- there is nothing really that shows a perfect system. Here you will have Khan, who spent eight years in prison. He wanted to be out. He said quote-unquote, he wanted to be a good British citizen and contribute to society.
Yet less than a year after he was released, he went on a killing spree. What the big point about really Khan's case is that the lone wolf phenomenon is very resilient.
He was part of a very radicalized -- hardcore radicalized cell. Even though the attacks in Europe the past few years have declined substantially, just to give your viewers a glimpse of what we're talking about, in 2015, 150 attacks occurred in Europe, according to the European Union figures. Only 13 attacks occurred in 2018.
And also the gravity of the attacks, now we are talking mainly about lone wolf attacks as opposed to coordinated multiple attacks by limited cells all over Europe.
HOLMES: Right. The thing about this incident, it is likely, is it not, to color the debate over the repatriation of ISIS suspects in Syria, even those who have gone through the system and were convicted, slipping through the cracks. It does speak to that challenge of rehabilitation of jihadists.
GERGES: I mean, yes. To give you an idea here in London, in the U.K., you have almost 100, I mean, basically individual, radicalized individuals, who are in the prison system.
One thing we're not talking about, you have 800 active ongoing terrorist investigations taking place in the U.K. today. So not only do you have between 70 and 100 basically convicted individuals, who either plotted or carried out terrorist attacks, you have 800 active cases just in 2017.
More than 2 dozen attacks were basically, I mean, found out before the attacks took place. They were basically preempted by the British authorities.
And I think the system itself is overwhelmed. There is not really much resources either in terms of the judicial system or the police system. That's why it has become a politically, I mean, big case in the coming elections in Britain.
The Conservative government has not really invested considerably in trying to manage this particular problem.
HOLMES: It does speak to -- I mean, the authorities, as good a job as they can do, they have stopped many. But it only takes one to slip through.
Speak to the state of ISIS. You have had the death of Baghdadi. People want to make a point of we're not gone yet.
GERGES: I think we should tell our audience the good news first. The good news is the ISIS wave has lost much of its momentum in the past two years. Think how the landscape was in 2015. The attacks in Germany, France, Belgium, U.K. Multiple coordinated, I mean, devastating attacks, hundreds of
casualties. Now we are dealing with -- even though it is very vicious, very painful, we are talking mainly lone wolf, deluded individuals inspired either by ISIS or by Al Qaeda.
Usman Khan was part of an Al Qaeda cell.
[04:10:00]
GERGES: My take on it is the lone wolf phenomenon is here to stay for a while because you have individuals who are radicalized online. What we're talking about here, we are talking about an ideology that is traveling, of Salafi jihadism, politically inspired zones.
You will have an individual like Khan who basically are radicalized online and they create these small limited cells and do what they do. Sadly and tragically, these, even though they are limited, their impact is tremendous.
Even though here in the U.K., you have hundreds of stabbings, one single attack in terms of lone wolf is magnified because it is random and individuals really do not know, people do not really know, you know, how it comes and where it comes from and whatever.
HOLMES: As we saw, the police response was almost immediate. Yet the damage was done. They are very easy to carry out. You make the point, ideology is still there. You cannot defeat that with bullets. Good to see you. Thank you.
GERGES: Thank you.
HOLMES: As President Trump gears up for a big summit in London this week, some people who could decide the fate of his presidency are waiting to hear from him or his people.
Also, the U.S. is about to be walloped by a massive winter storm coast to coast. We'll have a live report coming up.
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HOLMES: Welcome back.
The U.S. president Donald Trump finishing his Thanksgiving holiday at Mar-a-lago in Florida before heading back to the White House in a few hours from now. It is shaping up to be a big week for his administration on Capitol Hill.
The House Judiciary Committee set to hold its first impeachment hearing. But Mr. Trump will be in London for the NATO summit. Still, he has a decision to make and deadlines are looming. Jeremy Diamond explains.
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JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No decision so far from the White House as it relates to this first impeachment deadline Sunday 6:00 pm Eastern. The White House needs to decide whether or not the president will send an attorney to represent him at the first impeachment hearing hosted by the House Judiciary Committee. That is coming up on Wednesday.
But there is a second, more critical deadline and that is coming up on Friday, by which time the White House needs to decide whether the president or any of his attorneys will participate in any of the impeachment hearings held by the House Judiciary Committee, something House Democrats are likely to move forward with in the coming weeks.
So far the White House has not indicated one way or the other. Here is the core question that the White House faces.
The president has, of course, been extremely critical of the impeachment proceedings calling it a hoax and a scam. He doesn't want to legitimize it by sending attorneys. At the same time, he has not been able to have an attorney present at any of the impeachment proceedings thus far. Those have unfolded on the House Intelligence Committee.
So that is kind of where the president is. So far it's not clear which way the White House is leaning. The president, though, on Saturday, did sound off. He is reveling in the contrast of what's going to happen in the first impeachment hearing on Wednesday.
As Democrats hold that hearing, the president will be abroad on international business. Here's what the president tweeted on Saturday.
"I will be representing our country in London at NATO while the Democrats are holding the most ridiculous impeachment hearings in history. Read the transcripts. Nothing was done or said wrong. The radical left is undercutting our country. Hearings scheduled on same dates as NATO."
This is something quite familiar we have seen from the president, of course, during special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation. The president repeatedly complained about the cloud that he had over his head as he went to meet with key U.S. allies abroad.
He felt it undermined his diplomatic efforts abroad. And the president seems to be reprising that theme now that he faces the prospect of impeachment -- Jeremy Diamond, traveling with the president, in West Palm Beach, Florida.
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HOLMES: Scott Lucas is professor of international politics, University of Birmingham, joining me now via Skype. Thanks for doing so, professor. We have seen it in the Intelligence Committee. That's where the drama was. It is now Judiciary Committee.
How different might that look and do you think the Trump administration will take part?
SCOTT LUCAS, UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM: Well, the House Intelligence Committee was sort of like a grand jury where you assembled the evidence. You had 17 witnesses behind closed doors, 12 in public.
And then the House Intelligence Committee has to almost in effect serve as a grand jury, say is there enough weight of evidence here to proceed to the next stage.
The House Judiciary Committee will probably not hear from a great deal of new witnesses on the evidence. They will talk to constitutional lawyers about whether these are impeachable offenses, whether it constitutes bribery.
If the lawyers say yes, the Judiciary Committee will draft articles of impeachment. Those articles of impeachment will be voted on. In effect, the House Judiciary Committee will be the procedural body saying yes or no, is there enough evidence. If they say yes, there is bribery, obstruction of justice, they pass it to the full House for a vote before the Christmas recess.
HOLMES: Donald Trump has been strangely quiet on Twitter the last week or so. The Twitterverse has been commenting on that. But he did tweet today. I think it was his only direct tweet other than retweets.
"I will be representing our country in London at NATO, while the Democrats are holding the most ridiculous impeachment hearings in history.
[04:20:00]
HOLMES: "Read the transcripts. Nothing was done or said wrong. The radical left is undercutting our country. Hearings scheduled on the same dates as NATO."
Is it undercutting the country holding these hearings?
LUCAS: No. Let's be very clear about what Donald Trump and perhaps his staff are doing this weekend and that is the next phase of trying to block this inquiry. They first tried to block it by preventing any witnesses from showing up, telling current and former officials to defy subpoenas.
That didn't work; 17 current and former officials testified, including his former ally, ambassador Gordon Sondland.
The second stage is you delegitimize the hearings, tear down witnesses, saying they were disloyal to United States and Ukraine. If you can't tear down the witnesses and can't say they are
illegitimate, you say, look, he is doing great things for the country, great things everywhere and you're stopping him from doing a great job.
The fact of the matter is the biggest problem for Donald Trump in getting legislation getting legislation passed is Donald Trump. The biggest problem for NATO isn't impeachment hearings; it is that Donald Trump is unpredictable and insults foreign leaders. So time to keep your eye on the ball and not get dust thrown in your eye.
HOLMES: Donald Trump, as we said, he is going to NATO. Not going to be many friends to greet him. One of his allies, Boris Johnson, warned Trump, warned him to stay quiet on the upcoming general election. Other NATO leaders resent his admonishments.
How do you see it going?
Do you see a disruptive Trump again?
LUCAS: I have a well-placed colleague here in the U.K. who calls him a human hand grenade. You don't know when Trump will go off. In the past he has turned his back on other leaders, insulted the Germans, threatened to walk out of the alliance completely before U.S. officials walked that back. He is a disruption for NATO.
They have serious issues but they are about tactics, strategy, not just finance. Especially with a forthright Russian challenge in eastern Europe and other areas.
And Donald Trump gets in the way of discussing those issues. You have to sort of discuss around his back. Beyond that, look, Boris Johnson's people are worried. Donald Trump, three weeks ago, nearly sabotaged the prime minister's campaign by saying that he wants a no- deal Brexit.
In other words, he wants the U.K. to crash out of the European Union. And Boris Johnson is saying vote for me.
Will Trump cause his former ally more problems?
We'll wait and see.
HOLMES: You have the role of Turkey as a NATO member, yet buying air defense systems from Russia, a NATO critic; joint patrols in northern Syria. A couple of days ago you had Mr. Erdogan telling the French president to check, quote, "whether he is brain dead."
That was after Mr. Macron said NATO was on life support. I imagine a fairly awkward atmosphere with Turkey.
LUCAS: President Erdogan is a fairly crafty politician. I don't think it will be his interest to tear up the NATO summit. The big problem is a space was opened up really by the failure of U.S. policy on Syria, not just during the Trump administration. That indecision, uncertainty, inability to protect civilians led to
Turkey and Russia to intervene. That is a bigger problem for NATO and goes beyond Donald Trump and will not immediately be resolved at this summit.
HOLMES: Good point. Scott Lucas at the University of Birmingham. Thank you so much.
LUCAS: Thank you, Michael.
HOLMES: All right. A plane crash in the U.S. Left nine dead, including the pilot and two children. This happened near Chamberlain, South Dakota, shortly after takeoff. Three people survived and have been taken to hospital. Officials say the crash was weather related. It happened during heavy snowfall, had reduced approximate visibility.
Speaking of which, a powerful storm affecting many travelers across the U.S.; 50 million people coast to coast brace under rain, wind and snow. Hundreds of flights have been canceled. The storm moving east.
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HOLMES: We will take a short break. When we come back, Iraq's prime minister has agreed to resign but that has not stopped the unrest on the streets. Why many Iraqis say they will continue to demonstrate.
Plus, U.S. Democratic candidate Joe Biden is on the move in Iowa as he looks to move up in the polls. A look at where he stands ahead of the Iowa caucuses.
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HOLMES: And welcome back to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. You're watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Michael Holmes. We have the headlines now.
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HOLMES: Iraq's council of ministers reviewed the prime minister's resignation offer after he vowed to step down amid protests. His exit requires parliament approval. A vote is expected in the coming hours.
He told the council that his government hasn't spared any efforts in responding to protesters' demands. The prime minister now calling for a peaceful transfer of power.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ADIL ABDUL MAHDI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We had taken brave and daring decisions at that time to prevent the use of live bullets but, regrettably, when clashes happened, multiple interferences and complications occurred.
This led to the fall of victims and negative consequences. So it was left to the government to adopt a bold stance in this regard and, therefore, the resignation is now required in order to calm matters down.
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HOLMES: It did not stop Iraqis from returning to the streets on Saturday. Over the past two months, hundreds have died. Arwa Damon reports from Baghdad.
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ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is quite chaotic here but this is Shaima (ph) and we were just talking to her.
(Speaking Arabic).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking Arabic).
DAMON: She was saying she just wanted the United Nations to come in and get involved at what is going on here, to come in and actually support the population.
[04:35:00]
DAMON: And they also want to end Iran's influence.
If you come this way, you can see --
(Speaking Arabic).
-- if you come this way, you can see what has become this de facto front line and what they are trying to do here is keep pushing forward to take control of these vital bridges that cross the Tigris River.
And in doing that, they are hoping to keep up even more pressure on the Iraqi government, because they say, unless they keep going like this, unless they keep trying to push forward and make sure that their demands are heard, they say nothing is going to change.
Shaima (ph) showing what is being shot at them, saying this, this is the blood.
(Speaking Arabic).
(CROSSTALK)
DAMON: He says this is blood from someone who he says was just shot and was just injured and he carried him. And this is the blood. You can see how intense it is here right now. And again, as we were saying, these are demonstrators who are
determined to hold this ground, to hold all ground that they have and to keep pushing forward because, as I was saying, they want to make sure that, this time, their demands are heard.
And what they will also tell you is that just demonstrating has not been enough in the past. They say they have to keep the pressure up; otherwise, they say the government will just keep on making its empty promises -- Arwa Damon, CNN, Baghdad.
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HOLMES: Turning our attention to Syria in the aftermath of Turkey launching that offensive into the north of the country. It was nearly two months ago that U.S. troops were ordered by Donald Trump to pull back. And that left Washington's Kurdish allies at the mercy of Turkish troops and their proxies and they feel betrayed.
CNN's Clarissa Ward has more on the civilians paying the price for the U.S. exit.
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CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Class should be in session now but here in Hasakah, the school has become a temporary shelter for displaced people.
In one classroom, we meet Ibrahim Hassan. The Kurdish father of five tells us he was forced to flee his home in Ras al-Ain with his children when the Turkish military operation began.
This is what remains of his house. Ibrahim says it is one of many in his Kurdish neighborhood that was deliberately ransacked by Turkish- backed forces.
IBRAHIM HASSAN, DISPLACED SYRIAN KURD (through translator): They took everything and after they took all our belongings they set it on fire and burned it all.
WARD (voice-over): Just days before the offensive began, Ibrahim's children had posed smiling with U.S. troops patrolling the area. He says America's presence gave him a false sense of security -- then suddenly, they were gone.
HASSAN (through translator): Since America betrayed us, every time I look at these photos of my children with the Americans, I want to erase them.
WARD (on camera): Do you feel that you trust the Americans, still?
(Speaking foreign language).
HASSAN: Bialtabe la.
WARD (on camera): Bialtabe la -- definitely not. HASSAN (through translator): Now we hear and we see on television America saying that they're only here for the oil. Why did Trump do this?
You have betrayed all of the people.
WARD (voice-over): It's a sentiment we found shared by many here. Nearly 200,000 people have been displaced by Turkey's offensive. Hundreds of their homes have been damaged or looted.
Local authorities are now trying to move them out of the schools so that class can start again and into hastily-built camps like this one. Conditions are bleak and resources are scarce.
Because of the security situation, international aid agencies have had to pull out, leaving the Kurds with no one to rely on but themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking foreign language).
WARD (on camera): So she's saying it's really difficult here because it's very cold, especially at night. They don't have enough food, they don't have electricity and the water is not good.
WARD (voice-over): Camp organizers say there are 3,000 people living here now with more arriving every day.
WARD (on camera): Almost everyone in this camp is from the town of Ras al-Ain and Ras al-Ain used to be around 75 percent Kurdish.
Now though, we're told there are just a handful of Kurds left.
[04:40:00]
WARD: And the people here believe that the ultimate goal of this Turkish offensive is to essentially push the Kurds out of this area completely and change the ethnic makeup of it forever.
WARD (voice-over): Turkey has done little to alleviate their fears. As the Kurds have poured out of these areas, Arabs have been bused in -- Syrian refugees, who Turkish authorities claim are originally from these areas.
After more than eight years of civil war, this part of Syria is full of stories of people forcibly displaced. In the Christian village of Tal Nasr, we find more families from Ras al-Ain sheltering in the ruins of a destroyed church.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking foreign language).
WARD (on camera): Will you try to go home, I asked these women.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking foreign language).
WARD (on camera): There's no home to go to, they reply.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking foreign language). WARD (voice-over): ISIS cleansed this area of Christians when it was on control. They have yet to return. Now the village provides refuge for another people forced from their homes with no sense of a possible return -- Clarissa Ward, CNN, Northern Syria.
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HOLMES: We'll take a short break now. When we come back, U.S. presidential candidate Joe Biden on the move this weekend, looking to regain momentum as he makes his way through Iowa. Why he is calling it a "No Malarkey" tour.
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HOLMES: Welcome back.
Former U.S. vice President Joe Biden looking for votes in Iowa ahead of the long awaited caucuses in February. And the Democratic presidential candidate has come up with a slogan to show how he is the real deal. Arlette Saenz reports.
[04:45:00]
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ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Joe Biden kicked off what he calls his "No Malarkey" bus tour. It will take him to 18 Iowa counties to meet one on one with voters.
Now Joe Biden right now is leading nationally. He's the front-runner in most polls. But here in Iowa, it is a more mixed race. Pete Buttigieg was shown as leader in the state with Joe Biden battling it out for second with Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.
I asked Biden about what this bus tour means.
Is this bus tour going to turn things around?
JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think our campaign is going fine. And I think it's going to help. We have to earn the votes. We have to show up. That's what I'm doing.
QUESTION: Can you win the nomination without winning in Iowa?
BIDEN: Yes. But I'm going to win Iowa.
QUESTION: What are you telling voters about why you want to be president?
BIDEN: You got an hour?
SAENZ: One main focus is trying to put Biden in front of as many voters as possible. His ability to connect with people is one of his key strengths ahead of the Iowa caucuses. As for why it is called the No Malarkey bus tour, he said it's because the other guy, referring to President Trump, is all lies -- Arlette Saenz, CNN, Iowa.
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HOLMES: Three charities have come up with a unique way to fight the stigma of HIV. They have helped set up the first HIV-positive sperm bank. More about the initiative in New Zealand.
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HOLMES: Today is World AIDS Day. People around the world are wearing red ribbons in a show of support in the fight against the disease. To mark the event, New Zealand has opened the world's first HIV positive sperm bank in the hopes of destigmatizing HIV.
Sperm Positive already has donors. They all have the virus. Since the levels in their blood are so low because of new drug treatments, they cannot transmit the disease through childbirth or unprotected sex.
Joining me now, Jane Bruning, national coordinator at Positive Women and Mark Fisher, executive director at Body Positive, two groups behind this initiative.
Good to see you both.
Jane, let's start with you. This is obviously good news for those with HIV. Explain why someone would go to a sperm bank with HIV positive donors rather than donors without the virus.
JANE BRUNING, POSITIVE WOMEN: I guess (INAUDIBLE) a donor is (INAUDIBLE) a two-year waiting list in regular fertility clinics. So it's not always that easy. I guess we are doing it more from the perspective of people living with HIV who, over the years, have not had the opportunity to be parents.
And so -- and we really want to highlight the fact that now, with the changes in HIV medication, where people can now have an undetectable viral load and not pass on HIV, that it is OK to be able to donate sperm and not pass HIV onto a partner or to the children.
HOLMES: Right.
Mark, a major aim is raising awareness, HIV is far from a death sentence these days. It's not. And also reduce discrimination with that knowledge.
How much of stigma remains even with medical advances and what does that stigma lead to?
MARK FISHER, BODY POSITIVE: There is a huge amount of stigma still existing. Just from putting this campaign out there, the amount of negativity we've got towards it is quite significant. Even amongst the HIV community about the advances, people aren't convinced they can have children and have zero risk in that process. It's been a long journey.
HOLMES: Jane, you mentioned this. Let's talk a little bit about it. The advances made with HIV. Other people probably don't know. As I said, it's no longer a death sentence.
It is a manageable condition now, isn't it?
BRUNING: Absolutely. I myself have been living with HIV for 32 years. And that's all down to the medication. What happens nowadays, as soon as someone is diagnosed with HIV, they will get onto medications.
Within three weeks to three months, the virus will be undetectable, which means it can no longer be measured in the blood. It doesn't mean they're cured; they still have HIV but it's lying dormant. So it can no longer be transmitted sexually or passed onto a child.
So people with HIV now, it is more of a chronic life illness. You still have to take medications every day. But our life expectancy is the same as someone who has not got HIV.
HOLMES: Do you have any donors yet and any clients?
What's been the reception?
BRUNING: We actually have had seven donors come forward and seven women recipients who would like to -- yes, it's been very successful.
HOLMES: That's women with or without HIV?
BRUNING: Without HIV.
HOLMES: That's a big deal.
BRUNING: Yes.
FISHER: Yes.
BRUNING: So it's seven men with HIV and seven women without. Ironically, it is seven and seven.
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BRUNING: Funny after three days of the campaign going out. So there is -- while there's been a lot of negativity, which highlights the need for anti-stigma campaigns, there's also been a lot of positivity. And I think this shows there was a need for this.
[04:55:00] HOLMES: You know, when we were talking about this here in the NEWSROOM, several people were like, this is great but if you were not HIV positive, why would you go and, even if there is no risk, in your head, you might be taking a risk.
Why would you do that?
Just to hear there's seven women HIV free who signed up for this is remarkable, isn't it?
What's your reaction, Mark?
FISHER: I think it's amazing. It shows people have learned there is no risk. It is all about creating life. That's what we are doing this for, is to give people living with HIV to do that altruistic piece of being able to share and help someone have a child.
(CROSSTALK)
FISHER: It is hard --
(CROSSTALK)
FISHER: -- in New Zealand so it's really hard to get clinic donations in terms of sperm donors. So it's very much an altruistic place for people to come forward and contribute.
HOLMES: Where do you go from here with it?
Where do you take it now?
BRUNING: We will connect at these events (ph). We're not actually at the fertility clinic. So we will work with these couples and work with the fertility clinics and match them up. It's not straightforward work (ph) but we will work through it over the next few weeks, months.
FISHER: And the other thing is we want to change the way fertility clinics work around the world so that they can actually take on people living with HIV and support them because there is no risk.
HOLMES: Jane Bruning, Mark Fisher, we have to leave it there. But that's remarkable. It's just so encouraging that you have HIV-free women coming in and saying yes because there is no risk. So great news. Good luck with it.
BRUNING: Thank you very much.
FISHER: Thank you.
BRUNING. Thanks, 'bye.
HOLMES: Extraordinary stuff and good news. Taped that interview earlier.
Thanks for watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Michael Holmes. But I'll be back with more after the break.
