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Trump Will Not Participate In Wednesday's Hearing; Protests Continue After Prime Minister's Resignation; Gun Battle Leaves 19 People Dead In Northern Mexico. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired December 02, 2019 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN NEWSROOM: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Michael Holmes.

Coming up here on CNN Newsroom, not showing up. The White House tells House Democrats the president and his lawyers will not be at this week's impeachment hearings.

Grief and London, both victims of the terror attack where recent university graduates who worked with presidents.

And coast to coast, 50 million people in the U.S. under some kind of winter weather alert as powerful storms caused major problems.

U.S. President Donald Trump and his lawyers refusing to participate in this week's impeachment hearings. The White House Counsel told Democratic lawmakers on Sunday that the hearings are unfair. The proceedings shift to the House Judiciary Committee on Wednesday, which will consider possible charges against the president, the so-called articles of impeachment.

Sarah Westwood with details now of the message sent to the committee chairman.

SARAH WESTWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: The White House responded Sunday evening to House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler's offered to let the White House have a lawyer present at Wednesday's Judiciary Committee Hearing. White House Counsel Pat Cipollone is saying the White House will not be sending an attorney to that hearing.

Now, Cipollone spent much of the five-page letter he sent to Nadler on Sunday night complaining about the House Democrats' impeachment process so far, for example, complaining that the president and administration witnesses have been denied due process, but specifying that the White House would not be taking this opportunity to have representation at Wednesday's hearing, again, the first in the Judiciary Committee throughout this impeachment process.

I want to read you a part of the letter that Cipollone sent to Nadler. He wrote, as for the hearings scheduled for December 4th, we cannot fairly be expected to participate in the hearing while the witnesses are yet to be named and while it remains unclear whether the Judiciary Committee will afford the president a fair process.

And he goes on to write, accordingly, under the current circumstances, we do not intend to participate in your Wednesday hearing.

Now, this had put the White House in a tough spot because, of course, administration officials and Trump allies have complained throughout this process that they have perceived it as unfair. But sending a lawyer to those hearings on Wednesday could have been lending an air of legitimacy to proceedings that Trump and his allies have decried as a sham throughout this process.

Now, interestingly, Cipollone did leave the door open for the White House participating in future hearings. Cipollone writing, we may consider participating in future Judiciary Committee proceedings if you afford the administration the ability to do so meaningfully.

Now, Cipollone had complained, for example, that not enough information was provided about Wednesday's hearings. Nadler had set an additional deadline on Friday for the White House to specify whether they wanted to mount a public defense for future Judiciary Committee proceedings. It's in the Judiciary Committee, House Democrats will first a vote on articles of impeachment, something that House Democrats have said they want to get done by Christmas Day, so the impeachment inquiry about to accelerate dramatically.

The White House also has a big day on Monday, when House Intelligence Committee members will have their first opportunity to look at the findings of weeks of work from House Democrats in a report that will be distributed behind closed doors to members.

Sarah Westwood, CNN, the White House.

HOLMES: Joining me now to discuss is David Katz, a former Assistant U.S. Attorney. Always good to see you, sir.

Let's start with the White House saying it's not going to attend Wednesday's hearing. Doesn't that look bad since not having representation in this process is exactly what the president has been complaining about?

DAVID KATZ, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES: Well, it does look bad. And, of course, what they have done is they've given Trump what he's asked for. And now, he is suddenly not participating.

But I think that he thinks that this will be largely scholarly. It will be academic, and he doesn't really need to participate.

HOLMES: What do you think the White House strategy is? I mean, the whole thing seems to be, at the moment, to delegitimize the process, I mean, deflect by raising issues like Hunter Biden, but not deal with the substance of the allegations, the witness evidence, and just pretty much wait for a Senate trial, where republicans have the numbers.

KATZ: Well, they not only have the numbers, but in the Senate, they will control the procedures. [00:05:02]

As it is, back here in the House, he doesn't have the control of what's going on, but having said that, they still expect that they're going to hear evidence in there.

And so I think that he is going to pretty much stay out of it at this point. And, Mike, I think the rubber is going to hit the road when he says next week, you know, I want my lawyer to participate, but I'm going to keep stonewalling on the documents.

And one of the key things that's going to come to the floor then is there are some sanctions, there are some rules against the president if he refuses to provide documents. He can't just send his lawyer in there and say, well, this is all here, say, this is all not supported, when it's not supported by the fact that Trump and his agencies refuse to turn over documents. They are stonewalling. So that's when the rubber is going to hit the road.

And as to the timing, he's complaining that he's at the NATO conference, but what's happening with regard to the NATO conference is that we have an old saying, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime, if you don't like the timing, don't commit the high crime and misdemeanor, because you make it called to account at a point when you say the timing is no good. And you know that Trump would say, no matter when the timing was, that the timing was inconvenient with his duties as the president.

HOLMES: And that the process is unfair.

Zoe Lofgren, a Democratic congresswoman, she's on the Judiciary Committee. And interestingly, she is the only member of Congress who worked on both the Clinton and Nixon impeachment. She even wrote one of the articles of impeachment for Nixon when she was a congressional staffer. And she was telling Dana Bash that this is more serious than Watergate. Have a listen to what she said.

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REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): President Nixon's misconduct related to trying to use the levers of government to hide the Watergate burglary to his misconduct it had to do with trying to throw the election, but at least it didn't involve involving other foreign nations. If you take a look at what the founding fathers were concerned about, it was the interference by foreign governments in our political system, that was one of their greatest concerns.

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HOLMES: And it's interesting. In a purely legal sense, looking at then and now, how does the evidence heard so far stack up to the previous impeachment?

KATZ: Well, the evidence is devastating. The Clinton one was considered kind of a farce. I mean, it was alleged perjury but about a purely sexual matter. It certainly didn't seem to rise to the level of high crime and misdemeanor that warranted removal from office.

Nixon's conduct was worst, and Trump's is even worse than that, because Nixon's, whatever you can say about it, he called it a third rate burglary, but it was a onetime crime that he then covered up. This was a repeated course of conduct. On July 25th, there is the call to incoming President Zelensky, where the president said, but I need a favor though.

And then it has followed up the very next day with Sondland's visit and Sondland's phone call, which Mr. Holmes over in our embassy in Kiev testified to. He heard directly Trump's voice on the phone saying that he wanted this political personal favor. It's also become clear, Mike, that Trump and no one else stopped the money from flowing, even though it had been approved by Congress.

Having said that, you know, both Nixon and Clinton did participate in the judiciary proceedings and they did put on a defense. And I'm expecting that Trump, at the very least, will put in a written rebuttal.

How much he participates beyond that is going to be whether he stops stonewalling. I think if he continues to stonewall, he's going to find that his privileges to participate are circumscribed by the fact that he's stonewalling the very group. This would happen to you in court if you stonewalled. You wouldn't be allowed to fully participate because you were stonewalling, you were obstructing the proceeding.

HOLMES: And it's interesting you mentioned the Bill Clinton. This president's sexual conduct put his lawyer in jail but that's not part of this process at the moment, in terms of impeachment.

I wanted to ask you too it's been interesting how -- we're talking strategy. There's been a lot of photo ops lately with Donald Trump. He was having turkey with the troops. He was in Afghanistan. He was visiting factories. He has been honoring fallen service members. He's off to the NATO Summit. He's largely stayed off Twitter, which is really interesting, his usual rants of not being there.

Do you think this is a new approach, because that is how and Bill Clinton dealt with impeachment, stay out of the fray, be seen to be running the country. Do you think Donald Trump has been counseled to do the same?

KATZ: I think he's being council to do that, but I think he finds it irresistible. Because I think what he likes most about the presidency, except maybe enriching himself, the emoluments argument, is he loves the eagle trip of it.

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He loves the attention. And I think that he just can't help himself, that he's kind of egomaniacal.

But, certainly, any criminal defense attorney, like myself, would council him, don't give them more vote to hang yourself. Think about it. If on July 25th, if he never made that call, he would've been home free. I thought the Mueller report was devastating, but it kind of fizzled out when Mueller testified.

And here, the very next day, Trump goes and gets himself right in trouble again with his big mouth and, of course with his withholding the money, trying to get a personal favor to hurt what he considered his biggest political rival, Joe Biden.

HOLMES: It's going to be an interesting week or two ahead. Good to talk it over with you, David Katz. I appreciate it.

KATZ: Great to be with you.

HOLMES: Meanwhile, President Trump will travel to London Monday for the annual NATO Summit, that comes as his administration is looking to cut its contribution to NATO's funding for headquarters and staffing. That is a separate budget from defense spending, we should point out.

The president has long complained that allies aren't paying their fair share. Queen Elizabeth will host the reception at Buckingham Palace to mark NATO's 70th anniversary.

In just a few hours, the victims of the London terror attack will be remembered at a vigil. 25-year-old Jack Merritt and 23-year-old Saskia Jones were Cambridge graduates involved with Learning Together. That's a prison rehabilitation program. They've been attending an event of that program when they were stabbed by Usman Khan, a man convicted on terrorism offenses who was out on early release.

Jones' parents said this in a statement. Saskia had a great passion for providing invaluable support to victims of criminal injustice, which led her to the point of recently applying for the police graduate recruitment program wishing to specialize in victim support.

The attack has brought the U.K.'s prison rehabilitation system under close scrutiny with the British prime minister, Boris Johnson, criticizing the early release system.

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BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I think it's ridiculous. I think it's repulsive that individuals as dangerous as this man should be allowed out after serving only eight years. And that's why we are going to change the law.

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HOLMES: But Merritt's family slammed the government's plans to review the sentencing system, asking them not to exploit their son's death. They wrote this, quote, we know Jack would not want this terrible, isolated incident to be used as a pretext for introducing even more draconian sentences on prisoners or for detaining the people in prison longer than necessary.

Cambridge University's vice chancellor also spoke about Merritt's passion for prison reform. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN TOOPE, VICE CHANCELLOR, UNIVERSITY OF CAMBRIDGE: Well, we're devastated. I met Jack only once, but I must say that he impressed me as a person of tremendous charm but also extraordinary commitment. He really believed that the work at Learning Together is doing is fundamental for the future of our society.

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HOLMES: Three other people were wounded in that attack and continue to recover.

Meanwhile, the attacker's lawyer told CNN's Nina Dos Santos that Khan was monitored after release and there was no sign that he would reoffend.

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VAJAHAT SHARIF, ATTACKER'S LAWYER: It is correct to say, look, he was monitored. He was closely supervised by both counterterrorism command officers and probation service. It's not correct to say that he was just released on license, unsupervised, and could go anywhere without any consideration. That was taken place.

And my experience in dealing with counterterrorism officers and the probation services now, on the whole, they manage such offenders quite well so that they are properly rehabilitated.

NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So what questions do you think need to be asked as a result of this? Which answers would you like to hear and from, which institutions, counterterrorism officials?

SHARIF: Counterterrorism officers. They are extremely professional, very capable, equally probation service. There may be issues to address about resourcing and allocation of resource in this kind of cases.

But what immediately comes to mind is the benefit of having a trained de-radicalization expert who can examine the underlying political and religious philosophies to examine an offender, to see where they are intellectually at that time before they're going to be released, and have sufficient time to deal with them, to progress them on to the licensing phase of the sentence.

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HOLMES: Iraq's parliament has accepted the resignation of Prime Minister Adil Abdul-Mahdi, who vowed to stepped down amid the violent protests that have been going.

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But the move has not ended the unrest. There have been more demonstrations in Najaf where more than a dozen people have reportedly been killed since Wednesday. Local courts have started prosecuting officials over the killing of protesters.

Meanwhile, protesters gathered in Baghdad to mourn the people already lost. Some lit candles, others carried flags as they marched in the capital.

CNN's Arwa Damon is further south of Baghdad in Hillah, where another grieving community has come together.

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ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They cry for those they love for those they never met, for the agony of loss today and that of Iraq's painful past.

The sorrowful lyrics, a traditional Shia morning hymn, told from the perspective of the martyr, saying farewell to the living.

This is Hillah, the predominantly Shia capital of the province of Babylon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is (INAUDIBLE) from the oldest civilization in the world, from Babylon. We love our country. We love life. So we made this peaceful demonstration.

DAMON: Our presence prompts an address in English, those who are here starved to get their message out to an international audience.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need the world to support us, to stop killings against innocent people.

DAMON: Those crimes reflected in this living piece of macabre art and along the walls leading to the protest ground. After all the blood that was spilt, we won't let that go, we won't give up, 22-year-old Tabarek Fadre (ph) vows.

She is a recent college graduate and this is about her future. It's a future without the chains of Iraq's sectarian political parties, without the toxic influence of Iran and other outside powers. Students of all ages are on strike for going their education until their demands are met.

They want to start over. They want a do-over when it comes to Iraq's democracy project. And it really is this generation that is forcing about this change.

But few places are as calm as this where there is an agreement with the police to keep the peace.

This is the local provincial council that has been shut down at the request of the population. I mean, they basically gotten rid of the local government here.

They also torched the local offices of all political parties, a reflection of the outrage felt towards the political elite and their outside patrons.

But just a 45 minute drive further south in the holy Shia city of Najaf, the bloody oppression against those who dare revolt continues.

In the last few days at least 20 people have been killed, more than 500 wounded.

(INAUDIBLE) my son is thirsty. I will drink after him. I'm worried he died thirsty. This father early (ph) beside himself cries out.

And this little girl, just five years old, was killed by a stray bullet when she was standing in front of her house.

Najaf is where Shia political power lies and Iran's influence is more prominent. But even here, there is no more tolerance left for the status quo. Protesters have already burned the Iranian Consulate and more recently attacked the shrine of the once revered Shia cleric whose families entrenched in Iraqi politics.

Despite the crushing pain, there is hope and determination, a strength even in sorrow that those here swear is more powerful than any sectarian force.

Arwa Damon, CNN, Hillah, Iraq.

HOLMES: All right. We'll take a short break.

When we comeback, violence gripping Mexico once again. Ahead, details on a fierce gun battle that left several people dead and a community rattled.

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HOLMES: Welcome back.

In Mexico, 19 people are dead following a gun battle between security forces and suspected cartel members.

You hear there the sound of gunshots obviously terrifying families nearby, forcing them to take cover in their homes. Officials say four police officers and two civilians among those killed in the fighting.

The battle broke out on Saturday. This is in Northeastern Mexico. The governor of the state there says criminal groups have long sought to enter the region but he vowed to keep them out.

CNN's Rafael Romo with more.

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN REPORTER: It was a brazen attack that happened in plain daylight in Mexico just south of the U.S. border. It all started when a group of armed men arrived in more than a dozen trucks and open fired against a local municipal building in Northern Mexico.

This was the beginning of several shootouts in the town of Villa Union, located about 40 miles south of the U.S. border town of Eagle Pass, Texas. By the time the shootouts were over about an hour-and-a-half later, at least 19 people had died, including 13 suspected cartel members, four police officers and two civilians. According to Coahuila State Governor Miguel Angel Riquelme, authorities confiscated 14 vehicles with powerful weaponry that were used by the criminals in the attack.

According to Riquelme, the attackers belong to the cartel of the northeast, a criminal group that has long sought to enter his state and that tried once again Saturday with the force that is not like anything they had seen in a long time.

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The shootouts happened only days after President Trump said he would designate Mexican cartels as foreign terrorist organizations. Trump also offered to go in and clean it out but the Mexican government rejected the offer.

Also, in Northern Mexico, less than a month ago, three mothers and six of their children was dual Mexican and American citizenship and members of a Mormon community were massacred. This latest incident of violence happened the day before the Mexican president wants to celebrate his first year in office. Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador won the presidency and part because he promised to improve security across the Mexico.

Rafael Romo, CNN, Atlanta.

HOLMES: And as Rafael said, in a few hours, Mexico's president is scheduled to me with the family of the Mormon community members who were killed last month.

On Sunday, people gathered in Mexico City to protest ongoing violence gripping the nation. A major tourist spot at the center, meanwhile, of a new U.S. mass shooting, police say a shooter wounded ten people on Sunday. This is near the French Quarter in New Orleans.

CNN's Natasha Chen is near the scene with more.

NATASHA CHEN CNN CORRESPONDENT: Police told us that the person they detained earlier for questioning has now been released. They do not have a suspect unidentified at this time.

Now, of the ten people wounded, two of them were critically injured. Police say one of them was shot in the chest, the other shot in the torso.

Now, Saturday night, Canal Street here was filled with people, and that's because of the Bayou Classic, a football game played at the Superdome about a mile away or so away from here. Police say that's why they already had a lot enforcement contingent out here and they had several officers within feet of the incident, just a block from where we're standing. In fact, it was so crowded, police say they could not tell where the shots were coming from and at one point thought that the shots might have been aimed at the officers themselves. Now, a witness who was here overnight told us that, indeed, it was overwhelmingly crowded. He saw the sparks but he could not see where the shots came from. He said he heard at least five or six shots following a verbal altercation. He said then people were running in all directions and they were tripping and falling to try and get away from the scene.

At this point, police are trying to review surveillance footage and talk to witnesses to figure out what happened, and they have assistance from state and federal law enforcement.

Natasha Chen, CNN, New Orleans.

HOLMES: And the mayor of New Orleans responded to the shooting saying, quote, the shootings on Canal Street early this morning were an ugly disruption of an otherwise beautiful holiday weekend. We will do everything we can to wrap the families and their -- the victims and their families in our love and support and bring the criminals responsible to justice.

When we come back, intense winter weather making a mess of things right across the U.S., the dangerous conditions millions of travelers are facing. That's when we come back.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And welcome back to CNN NEWSROOM, everyone. I'm Michael Holmes with the headlines this hour.

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U.S. President Donald Trump will not participate in the House Judiciary Committee's impeachment hearing Wednesday. The president's attorney wrote to the committee, saying it was not a fair process. He said they will respond separately to another deadline on Friday about participating in future hearings.

A vigil will be held in the coming hours to honor the victims of the London stabbing attack. Jack Merritt and Saskia Jones were Cambridge graduates involved in an education and prison reform program called Learning Together. They were stabbed by Usman Khan, who was convicted of terrorism offenses and was out on early release.

Three other people were wounded in the attack.

And more unrest has erupted in Iraq on the same day the Parliament accepted the prime minister's resignation. Protestors set fires outside the Iranian consulate in Najaf. Sources say more than a dozen people have been killed in that city since Wednesday.

Now, a travel nightmare in the U.S., powerful winter storms wreaking havoc from coast to coast. In Buffalo, New York, the weather caused a plane to slide off the runway. And by Sunday evening, more than 800 flights have been canceled nationwide, nearly 6,000 delayed.

In South Dakota, nine people, including the two founders of the Health and Wellness company were killed on Sunday when their plane crashed in blizzard-like conditions. And heavy fog led to a 25-car pileup in Maryland on Sunday.

Meteorologist Pedram Javaheri joins us now to talk about this. Been forecasting it for a couple of days. How's it unfolding?

PEDRAM JAVAHERI, CNN METEOROLOGIST: You know, we've certainly seen the peak of the storm system when it comes to come of these cities that have been impacted, Michael. And, of courses, you take a look at this, the timing couldn't be any worse when it comes to the biggest travel day of the year.

Massive storm system across the Great Lakes region of the United States and very slowly moving on in over towards the most densely populated corner, which would be right around the Northeastern United States. And it is just cold enough to support snow showers, so it's that wet slushy snow that's coming down across some of these cities. And we expect this to continue through much of Monday.

But, of course, the broader perspective shows you we have advisories and warnings from the Western U.S. all the way towards the Northeast. And about 50 million people at risk here for wintry weather, and parts of 20 states impacted by it, as well.

So you go in for a closer look, you'll notice how slowly the storm system pulls away from Sunday into early Monday. And finally, on Tuesday, a lot of this region, and with it, because it is a heavy, wet, slushy type of snow, the accumulations are not as impressive for the major metro cities.

But of course, it doesn't take much. And the wet snow is often more disruptive sort of weather pattern.

And you notice Boston, out towards New York City on into Philadelphia kind of on the cusp of the gray, the white contours, which are five to ten centimeters. You work your way, though, inland across the interior regions of New England, over 45 centimeters possible.

Now the latest numbers: on the busiest travel day of the year, which was Sunday across the United States, 900-plus cancellations. Over 7,000 flights were delayed.

So far, the pre-active numbers coming in for Monday, which is just a few minutes young, of course, puts cancellations over 100. And also seeing delays over 50, but we expect this to climb up into the thousands as Monday afternoon heads our way there, Michael.

HOLMES: Thanks Pedram. Pedram Javaheri there.

Well, in the coming hours, world leaders are going to be gathering in Madrid to tackle climate change at the United Nations conference, COP25. For years, lawmakers have taken part in this annual gathering, and this year, scientists say it is urgent that countries take action.

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Writing in the journal "Nature," researchers say the Earth is headed towards a global tipping point, meaning climate change is pushing environmental systems to the point of no return.

The Paris agreement will likely be a key focus at the conference.

And despite the United States formalizing its withdrawal from that historic accord, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi will be in attendance with other Democratic lawmakers, as well.

Singapore begins using a new law to tackle what it considers fake news, but critics say it is not what it seems. We'll speak to an expert about this controversial issue when we come back.

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HOLMES: Welcome back. Singapore's first use of its fake news law is already causing controversy. I want show you now one of two Facebook posts Singapore says contains false information.

It was reposted on the government's website with the word "false" stamped all over it. The original was written by an opposition politician, questioning investment decisions of the state's sovereign wealth funds.

The other post was published by an Australian-based blog that claimed police had arrested a whistleblower who exposed a political candidate's religious affiliations.

In both cases, Singapore ordered that the government rebuttal be included with each of the posts. But critics say all of this threatens free speech.

Let's talk now to Shawn Crispin in Bangkok, Thailand. He is senior Southeast Asia representative for the Committee to Protect Journalists, doing important work.

Let's just sort of start with your reaction to the first use of this law and what it sort of is portending.

SHAWN CRISPIN, SENIOR SOUTHEAST ASIS REPRESENTATIVE, COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS: I mean, we were concerned from the start when the legislation was passed, the adverse implications for press freedom. But now those concerns have come to fruition, with the -- you know, the first use of the law.

You know, we see this law is -- is wide open to abuse, that you know, any post, news on social media that the government deems as objectionable, and its undermining confidence in its administration, can be deemed as false.

So this legislation was designed in a way that is over broad, vague, and lends itself to abuse. And our concern is that abuse is now starting.

HOLMES: Yes. I guess one of those cases, the government asked Facebook to publish the correction notice instead of the author, who refused to do so, because he was in Australia and didn't have to. How worrying, though, is that aspect? You've got a government

demanding a social media company do as it's told by the government. What are the ramifications of that?

CRISPIN: Right. I mean, you know, we think that Facebook needs to come down on the side of press freedom and not censorship, you know, as a rule. And in this particular instance, right, there's a debate as to whether or not a whistle-blower had been arrested or not.

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Now, with Facebook willing to put, you know, a corrective note at the bottom of the post, we would assume that means that Facebook independently confirmed the information that this whistleblower was not arrested.

But they moved pretty quickly, and so we're wondering, you know, if indeed that their fact checking, you know, is up to snuff.

So I mean, this is -- Press freedom is right in the middle of the storm there in a press-freedom-related issue. And, you know, we're hoping that they come down on the right side here.

HOLMES: Yes. Yes, the big picture, there are a lot of concerns about press freedom in Singapore. The recent world -- like most recent world rankings on press freedom by the watchdog Reporters Without Borders, Singapore placed 151 out of 180 countries. That's one of the worst positions for a country that considers itself a democracy.

Do you see this intimidating to some journalists?

CRISPIN: I mean, the problem here, of course, is that Singapore already had all of these laws on the books that allowed them to stifle news, to intimidate critics, and even to, you know, sue some of them into financial oblivion. Right?

So we just saw that the move to implement this new fake news law is effectively a piling on effect, right? It gives them yet, you know, more ammunition to go after their critics.

And what we're particularly concerned about, obviously, is that -- as Singapore enters into an election cycle, that this new law is really going to lend itself to abuse. You know, that anybody that comes out with a counternarrative or questions the record of the ruling People's Action Party, you know, could be deemed as false news.

And at this point, you know, we're not so sure if Singapore, you know, has the capacity to go out and verify this before, you know, they put a corrective measure underneath these -- these posts. So it's very concerning.

HOLMES: You live and work in the area and have done for many years in the region. I mean, in the age of Trump, do you see other governments emboldened, if you like, to -- to cry fake news when they see reporting that they don't agree with, but isn't at all fake? I mean, what does that lead to? CRISPIN: It most certainly hasn't set a helpful precedent, you know,

that's to be sure. And yes, we see across the region, you know, governments lurching towards accusations of fake news to challenge, you know, any reporting that they see as objectionable or, effectively, checks and balances there, their administration.

So, yes, you know, when the U.S. president, you know, sets this precedent, then you know, tin-pot dictators the region over feel they can do the same without any recourse or criticism from the west.

HOLMES: Some of the language in it is interesting, too. It makes it illegal to spread false statements of fact, under circumstances which -- in which that information is deemed, and I think the wording is prejudicial to Singapore's security, public safety, public tranquility, or the friendly relations of Singapore with other countries, among other topics. I mean, that is pretty broad, and that casts a pretty wide net, doesn't it?

CRISPIN: I mean, that's about as overbroad as you can get, isn't it, right? And it gives the power to authorities, effectively, to deem, you know, what violates any of those -- those provisions you just mentioned.

And you know, we think, as a rule, that the government should not decide what is real and what is false, and you know, there are plenty of laws on the books already in regards to defamation and the sort that can deal with these sort of issues. You don't need government authorities deciding what is real and what is not.

And in Singapore's instance, they're sliding down that slippery slope very quickly.

HOLMES: Shawn Crispin with the Committee to Protect Journalists. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.

And that is our time. Thanks for watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Michael Holmes. WORLD SPORT coming up next. I'll see you in about 15 minutes.

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