Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Nancy Pelosi Asks House Democrats to Proceed with Articles of Impeachment. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 05, 2019 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They just know it's about to happen and they're doing their best to prepare, sometimes each in their own way and sometimes in group settings, Jim.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Of course, Republicans have a majority in the Senate. It could be as simple as a majority vote to call a witness such as Hunter Biden. Remarkable possibilities.

Phil Mattingly, thanks very much.

The White House, of course, strategizing behind the scenes.

Let's go to White House correspondent Jeremy Diamond.

Jeremy, White House expectations, do they see this as an opportunity? Do they see this as damaging these coming weeks?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we already saw from the president this morning via Twitter is he framed yesterday's first impeachment hearing in the House Judiciary Committee as a failure calling it an historically bad day. But what is clear, Jim, is that the president and the White House are really turning their attention to the potential for a trial in the Senate.

Here's what the president tweeted this morning. He said, if you are going to impeach me, do it now fast so we can have a fair trial in the Senate, and so that our country can get back to business.

And the president also making clear that he wants witnesses to come forward in his defense, in a potential Senate trial. That was also the message from the White House legislative affairs director, Eric Ueland, yesterday, speaking with reporters where he said the president wants his case to be fully made in the Senate.

So, it is clear, Jim, that even as things are still going on in the House, the White House is very much beginning to prepare the president's defense for a potential Senate trial. And that is where the White House's focus is really shifting.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much.

As we wait to hear from the House speaker, our chief political correspondent Dana Bash is here.

Good morning.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

HARLOW: Nice to have you in person.

BASH: You too.

HARLOW: All right. In the words of Democratic Congressman Jerry Connolly, about Nancy Pelosi, she doesn't follow parades. She leads them.

BASH: Very well put.

HARLOW: Where is this parade going?

BASH: Well, the key word in that is lead. She, obviously, understands her role, maybe better than most. Maybe historically as a leader and the history of this moment is not lost on her.

Remember, she came to this reluctantly. Really came to this notion of impeachment reluctantly. The pressure was on her by a lot of Democrats, by the base to not give up their majority. Not just say, OK, we have a majority but we're not doing anything to hold the president accountable.

So, she's taken methodically taken her caucus through the process.

HARLOW: Yes.

BASH: They are at a point now where she has to, you know, check in with her and her caucus and with the country because this is so much about public opinion which, if you look at the polls, if you see where the caucus is and, more importantly, maybe the Republicans, it hasn't moved at all. And so she has to get out there and tell the public, this is where we are. And this is where we're going.

But just as Manu was hearing, I am hearing, don't speculate on how specific she will get when she gives this announcement. But we're at a really critical point.

HARLOW: Of course.

Jim?

SCIUTTO: Manu Raju, as we wait for Pelosi to come to the podium there, is there any doubt, Manu, that she says we're going to move forward with the next steps of impeachment?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: It would be a big surprise if she suddenly decided to back off at this moment because she's listening to her caucus. She's talking to her colleagues, and there are very few Democrats who do not believe the president should be impeached or move forward to drafting those articles of impeachment because right now as we saw on the vote to formalize the proceedings in the inquiry proceedings, just two Democrats defected and you've heard more and more Democrats raised alarms as revelations came out through the course of this investigation.

So, the will for the Democratic caucus to impeach the president has only gotten stronger. So, for her to back off at this point would be really, really surprising, particularly her language, too, has gotten more aggressive. Yesterday, she tweeted the president was a, quote, threat to democracy and she did not believe the president should be impeached being a threat to democracy. That would be a big surprise.

HARLOW: Yes, that's --

RAJU: So, that's where probably talking some significant news in a matter of moments.

HARLOW: That's a very good point, Manu, because she chooses every word very carefully.

Dana, but her message last night in that meeting that Manu reported on earlier to Democrats in the house was, be disciplined because she has heard and everyone the country has heard her bring up Al Green's words about impeaching the president long ago. Jerry Nadler's own words about the three things you need to impeach, one being bipartisan support of the American people, coming back to haunt him a little bit in the hearing yesterday.

BASH: That's exactly right. And that has -- when you talk about discipline, it's the words but it's also how they're going to approach these articles of impeachment. It's hard to imagine she's going to get super specific when we hear from her in just moments. We're not sure.

But broadly what she is hearing is a mix.

Here she is.

HARLOW: So, let's listen to the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Good morning.

Let us begin where our Founders began in 1776.

[09:05:04]

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another.

With those words our Founders courageously began our Declaration of Independence from an oppressive monarch for among other grievances the king's refusal to follow rightfully passed laws.

In the course of today's events it becomes necessary for us to address among other grievances the president's failure to faithfully execute the law. When crafting the Constitution, the Founders feared the return of a monarchy in America and, having just fought a war of independence, they specifically feared the prospect of a king- president corrupted by foreign influence.

During the Constitutional Convention, James Madison, the architect for the Constitution, warned that a president might betray his trust to foreign powers, which might prove fatal to the Republic. Another Founder, Gouverneur Morris, feared that a president may be bribed by a greater interest to betray his trust. He emphasized that this magistrate is not the king; the people are the king.

They therefore created the constitutional remedy to protect against a dangerous or corrupt leader -- impeachment. Unless the Constitution contained an impeachment provision, one Founder warned, a president might, quote, spare no effort or means whatsoever to get himself reelected.

Similarly, George Mason insisted that a president who procured his appointment in his first instance through improper and corrupt acts might repeat his guilt and return to power.

During the debate over impeachment at the Constitutional Convention, George Mason also asked, shall any man be above justice? Shall that man be above it who can commit the most extensive injustice.

In his great wisdom, he knew the injustice committed by the president erodes the rule of law, the very idea that a fair justice which is the bedrock of our democracy.

And if we allow a president to be above the law, we do so surely at the peril of our Republic. In America, no one is above the law.

Over the past few weeks, through the Intelligence Committee working with the Foreign Affairs and Oversight committees, the American people have heard the testimony of truly patriotic career public servants, distinguished diplomats and decorated war heroes, some of the president's own appointees.

The facts are uncontested: The president abused his power for his own personal political benefit at the expense of our national security by withholding military aid and crucial Oval Office meeting in exchange for an announcement of an investigation into his political rival.

Yesterday, the Judiciary Committee, at the Judiciary Committee, the American people heard testimony from leading American constitutional scholars who illuminated without a doubt that the president's actions are a profound violation of the public trust. The president's actions have seriously violated the Constitution, especially when he says and acts upon the belief -- Article 2 says I can do whatever I want.

No. His wrongdoing strikes at the very heart of our Constitution -- a separation of powers, three coequal branches, each a check and balance on the other.

A republic, if we can keep it, said Benjamin Franklin.

Our democracy is what is at stake. The president leaves us no choice but to act because he is trying to corrupt once again the election for his own benefit. The president has engaged in abuse of power, undermining our national security and jeopardizing the integrity of our elections. His actions are in defiance of the vision of our Founders and the oath of office that he takes to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Sadly, but with confidence and humility, with allegiance to our Founders and a heart full of love for America, today I am asking our chairman to proceed with articles of impeachment.

[09:10:00]

I commend our committee chairs and their members for their somber approach to actions which I wish the president had not made necessary.

In signing the Declaration of Independence, our Founders invoked a firm reliance on divine providence. Democrats, too, are prayerful, and we will proceed in a manner worthy of our oath of office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God.

Thank you.

SCIUTTO: There you have the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, and with those words there, today I am asking our chairman to proceed with articles of impeachment. She begins with a reference to history and notably, I think, Dana Bash, noting the declaration of independence from an oppressive monarch as she goes on to justify the impeachment -- proceeding with the impeachment of Donald Trump.

Also saying, I think this was notable, too, Dana. He's trying to corrupt the election once again. Once again to his own benefit -- a reference there back to 2016 as well.

Your reaction, Dana?

BASH: Yes, look, the big picture, what she is doing is resetting the table, is reminding the public of why she allowed the house Democrats to go there reluctantly on her part in the first place a few months ago and explaining why she wants the committees to go to the next step.

We knew this was extremely likely that this was going to happen, meaning that the committee -- the judiciary committee in particular would start to write the articles of impeachment but she, obviously, as the speaker of the house felt the need to come out and explain that in the context of where this country started and where she hopes it will go.

And one other thing. Yes, she talked about the elections. She talked about the fact the president -- that if we allow the president to be above the law, we do it at the peril of the public. She also talked about the fact that Article 2 does not, as the president suggests, suggest he has ultimate power but there's a separation of power.

So, she didn't say what the articles of impeachment will be but in those two sort of ideas, she's laying out abuse of power, A, and, B, obstruction of Congress. HARLOW: Manu Nancy Pelosi making history just now with those words.

She will be on CNN tonight for a special CNN town hall, 9:00, with Jake Tapper. She'll get all sorts of questions, of course, on what we just heard from her.

But let me began where she began, Manu, and that is at the beginning, right? She said, let us begin where our Founders began in 1776 and quoted Ben Franklin and others, and then she led up to the news, I'm asking our chairman to draft articles of impeachment. But the laying of the history before making that announcement.

RAJU: Yes, and that's in line with what we were hearing out of the House Judiciary Committee yesterday. That proceeding with several experts, three attorneys, three law experts saying exactly that, the president, in their view, violated the Constitution. Something the Founders would not have stood for and the Founders would expect the house would impeach in a situation like this. The one witness provided by the Republicans disagreed.

But nevertheless, her statement here is a signal the Democrats want to start moving on the next phase. It's all but certain here that President Trump will be impeached now that she made these remarks. There's virtually no doubt that's going to happen now.

It's been clear that up until this point that should happen. But everyone was waiting from the signal from the speaker that they just got.

Now as Dana noted, the next discussion is going to be about exactly how many articles of impeachment the president is going to face. Obstruction of Congress, almost certainly will be one of them. Abuse of power also very likely to be another one.

But could they add bribery to that as well? That seems likely as well. So, there could be two articles there.

The question ultimately, too, will be, what do they do about the Mueller report. The evidence cleaned and the Mueller report, those episodes of obstruction of justice. Will those 10 episodes, or at least or some of those be referenced at a separate article of impeachment. That came up in the hearing yesterday. There are a lot of Democrats believe they should go that route.

So, potentially, we would be looking at three articles of impeachment for the president but those discussions will continue behind the scenes with a handful of people. The speaker, the Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler, likely Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff and then we'll ultimately see that decision in the coming days.

SCIUTTO: Well, the possibility of a perjury charge has been raised, too. That, of course, factored into the Clinton impeachment. The question, did President Trump lie in his written answers to the special counsel?

Jeremy Diamond, you have the president tweeting out today, in effect, a -- I dare you, go ahead, impeach me now. [09:15:00]

There's been some back and forth as to whether the president sees this as politically beneficial to him perhaps, rally the base or ultimately damaging.

And I'm curious, you've covered the White House for some time. How does the president actually view this prospect?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, it took the president some time to actually accept the fact that he likely was going to be impeached. There was some game there of the president saying, look, I could benefit from this, maybe daring Democrats even to do it.

But at the end of the day, the president does not want to be impeached particularly because of how this will play with his legacy, making him only, you know, one of three presidents to actually be formally impeached by the House of Representatives. That is not something that the president wants.

That is not a blemish that the president wants on his record. At the same time though, what we have seen from the White House in the last few days is an acceptance that the president was going to be impeached and a turn towards preparing for his trial in the Senate.

White House lawyers have been preparing to mount a very robust defense for the president, acknowledging the facts that senators were going to move forward with a full and complete trial of the president in the Senate once those articles of impeachment are sent over there.

We are getting a little bit of reaction now from Stephanie Grisham; the White House Press Secretary, she just tweeted that Speaker Pelosi and the Democrats should be ashamed and arguing that the president has done nothing, but lead our country resulting in a booming economy, more jobs, a stronger military.

Again, the White House is going to also turn this conversation to try and focus on the president's achievements. There was very much a split-screen moment earlier this week that the president was at least initially relishing which was while this House Judiciary Committee hearing was taking place, the president was abroad representing the country in London during the NATO Summit.

Of course, at the end of the day, we saw a very different message there ultimately with the mocking that he faced from several other world leaders. But again, this is not something that the president wants, and now it is clear that the president will likely be impeached. And that is certainly not something that he is looking forward to facing.

POPPY HARLOW, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Phil Mattingly, to the point that Manu made just a moment ago about whether or not the articles of impeachment will include stuff from the Mueller reporting, including those ten, you know, potential obstructive acts by the president laid out. This is what struck me from Nancy Pelosi that made me think that's maybe more likely than not, quote, "the president leaves us no choice but to act because he is trying to corrupt once again the election for his own benefit."

And we heard something similar from Jerry Nadler in his opening remarks yesterday, what do you think?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, this is a serious debate inside the Democratic caucus. I think there's no question about that. There are front line Democrats who many of them are freshmen, many of them won seats that President Trump won in 2016 who are very late-comers to the impeachment idea.

They came on very late, and the reason they came on late was because specifically of what they saw with Ukraine. They didn't --

HARLOW: Right --

MATTINGLY: There when Mueller testified, they weren't there when Bob Mueller's report came out, and they have made clear -- I've been told, I know Manu has been told too, behind the scenes that they would like to keep this narrow. I think this is the thing that we need to keep an eye on in the days ahead. How they draft the articles of impeachment is extremely important.

It's not necessarily the case that every single one of them won't pass the United States house. I think it's pretty clear some of them will, but how will they -- how they address the scope, how they address the scale, and how they address members that have long thought that Mueller needs to be included in this, obstruction of justice needs to be included with this.

As that compares with those who are very wary of going too far is something they're going to have to figure out. I think as Manu noted, like we all kind of assumed this was going to be the case. The speaker laying the stake in the ground, making clear this was happening, given the historical precedent and relevance to this, I think was an important moment here.

But the real questions and the real debates inside the Democratic caucus about what those articles will look like, those are going to take place over the course of the next couple of days behind closed doors.

HARLOW: Can I just add that --

SCIUTTO: Dana Bash --

HARLOW: Yes --

SCIUTTO: Like you, I'm sure I've been speaking to Republican congressmen over the last days and weeks to see if they have an open mind beyond their public comments, saying they are with the president. Privately, do they have an open mind to considering these articles of impeachment? It seems that door is closing, perhaps, not entirely closed. But with your view, is this almost certainly a party-line vote? DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Almost certainly a

party-line vote. You know, we could get surprised by one of the almost 20 house Republicans who are retiring, but we've got no indication that that's the case yet. And if anything, the attempt by the house Democratic leadership and the committee to take the public through an understanding by gathering evidence, by making a report, by doing public hearings, by convincing them has not worked.

[09:20:00]

Again, this is based on public opinion polling, but more importantly, based on what these Republicans are hearing back home from their constituents. The one thing that is related to this, but just I want to add to what Phil and Manu were saying about how critical this phase is, about how the articles of impeachment, not just how many, but how they're crafted.

Poppy, I agree with you that it struck me that -- when she said that the president leaves us no choice, but talked about how he corrupts -- he would potentially corrupt the election again.

HARLOW: Right --

BASH: It is entirely possible that, that phrase or that notion would be part of an article of impeachment of abuse of power dealing with Ukraine. And the reason is because, like Phil was saying, I am also hearing from the most important majority-makers. The house Democrats --

HARLOW: Sure --

BASH: Who are in very big Trump districts -- even this morning, I was communicating with one. Make it narrow. Make it quick, and let's move on.

HARLOW: Yes --

BASH: And she is hearing that -- I know, she's hearing other things from the more liberal members, but that is important to keeping the house majority which is no small thing.

HARLOW: Which is no small thing at all. Dana, thank you all. Everyone, stay where you are. A momentous moment this weekend. We will speak to a member, a Democratic member of the House Judiciary Committee coming up. All eyes on that committee for the next steps. What will the articles of impeachment look like? Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:25:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Sadly, but with confidence and humility, with allegiance to our founders and a heart full of love for America. Today, I am asking our chairman to proceed with articles of impeachment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: A historic moment, Jim, just moments ago from the house Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

SCIUTTO: Nearly 250 years of our country's history, a process we've only toyed with, played with, considered four times in those 250 years. Let's bring in former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rogers, Julian Epstein; the former chief counsel for House Judiciary Democrats during the Clinton impeachment, the last one, and CNN chief national correspondent John King.

John, if I could begin with you, just on the next political steps here, as we look at this, public opinion did not appear to have moved significantly during those public hearings. And Republican unity actually solidified --

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right --

SCIUTTO: It seemed during that time. Is there any sign based on your reporting with those people you speak to that, that breaks or is this party line vote that we're headed for most likely?

KING: Democrats are hoping, as they continue this proceeding -- I'm just going to take this out, echoing in my head here. The Democrats are hoping as this continues that you have the articles of impeachment. You have the speaker today taking a front and center role. Then you moved to a committee vote on the articles of full- house vote.

They're hoping -- they're hoping that public opinion grows with them. They would also tell you, yes, they have not moved it so far since the beginning of the hearings. However, they're in a better -- they believe they're in a stronger position than when, and Julian remembers this very well, when the Republicans impeached Bill Clinton, the public was firmly against it.

SCIUTTO: Right --

KING: Now support was somewhere in the high 20s or 30s.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

KING: The public was very much against it. So, the Democrats believe they have to make their case, and if they can bring more people with them, good. From a house perspective, they believe in 90 percent or more of their districts they're safe. In a house district that Nancy Pelosi -- she is worried about maybe 15 or 20 members.

SCIUTTO: They shouldn't give them leeway to vote now?

KING: Well, she wants -- she's very critical to her to keep defections to a minimum. She knows --

SCIUTTO: Right -- KING: There will be a few. She's hoping to keep it to one hand. And

if it gets on to a second hand to keep it, you know, to six or eight.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

KING: That's very important to send a message that the Democrats are unified on this, and to see if that message then affects any Republicans. But what struck me today in her careful statement was just the flashback. It was Newt Gingrich versus Bill Clinton. This is Nancy Pelosi versus Donald Trump.

Yes, there's a substance, yes, there's the articles, yes, there's the chairman, yes, we're going to have a process to go ahead. But as America deals with this very sober fact, we're about to impeach a president of the United States. Take the names aside, put the parties aside, that is a huge historic deal. Who leads the conversation?

And Speaker Pelosi, someone the Republicans had tried to vilify and sidelined as a liability for the Democrats, she is the glue that holds them together.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

KING: She is leading this process just as the president is holding the Republicans together in very different ways.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

KING: But -- so, you have these two dominant figures in American politics now who are going to be the face of the argument --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

KING: As we go into this process.

SCIUTTO: And Poppy, President Trump has even grudgingly perhaps expressed respect for Nancy Pelosi these last few months.

HARLOW: Julian Epstein, because you were the chief counsel for House Judiciary Democrats during the last impeachment that this country went through, what would your advice be in terms of the scope? They're drafting them now. Do they keep it narrow? Do they stick with Ukraine?

Do they broaden it out and include the potential obstructive acts laid out in the Mueller report?

JULIAN EPSTEIN, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR HOUSE JUDICIARY DEMOCRATS DURING CLINTON IMPEACHMENT: Oh, I think they should clearly keep it narrow, I think they should keep it narrow to the Ukraine matter, and I think they should keep it on what I think was a bribery or shake-down scheme as one article and an obstruction article as the second. I think to John's point, and John is exactly right on.

In 1998, the Republicans lost the argument by about 73 to 28 in terms of public opinion polls, largely because the public thought that Republicans were being political, and they were way out in front of the facts. And so they lost the argument.

I think the Democrats were losing the argument on the Mueller inquiry because I think earlier this year, the Democrats really did get out in front of the facts, and when the Mueller inquiry didn't quite show the conspiracy or the Russian collusion question as definitively as they wanted.

END