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Democrats Move Forward with Impeachment; Rep. Steve Cohen (D- TN) is Interviewed about Impeachment; Trudeau Admits Hot-Mic Video; Harris as VP Pick. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 05, 2019 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00}

JULIAN EPSTEIN, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR HOUSE JUDICIARY DEMOCRATS DURING CLINTON IMPEACHMENT: Because I think earlier this year the Democrats really did get out in front of the facts. And when the Mueller inquiry didn't quite show the conspiracy or the Russian collusion question as definitively as they wanted, I think a lot -- that middle swath of the public, that middle third of the public kind of lost faith and tuned out.

And then what happened with Ukraine was we had a giant reset. And Nancy Pelosi kind of -- who had previously been a passively aggressive in her opposition to impeachment, kind of took the reins and -- with an iron fist and I think exerted a lot more discipline. And I think the facts were much, much more compelling on the Ukraine matter.

And what the Democrats have shown now is much, much more discipline in kind of their rhetoric, their somber tone and not sounding as political as they did during, I would say, the Mueller inquiry. And that's been very good. And the numbers on impeachment have moved from about 34 percent to about 56 believing that the president has committed impeachable offenses, but only about 47 percent of the public want to see the president removed.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Right.

EPSTEIN: So the Democrats haven't quite gotten to where they need to get to in terms of winning the public argument, but they're a lot further than they were in say September. And I think that's largely because of the discipline, as John is pointing out, the discipline that Nancy Pelosi has exerted.

The more narrow they can keep this focused on the Ukraine matter where there really does seem to be consensus in -- in the entire caucus, I think the better off the Democrats will be. But for political reasons, and particularly because of some of the more extreme voices on the left, they may feel that they need a third article on things like emoluments or the Mueller investigation, obstruction issues, to satisfy some of the more -- kind of the base elements of the Democratic Party.

Remember, in 1998, the Republicans voted four articles out of the committee but only two passed the House. JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Exactly.

EPSTEIN: So they may have a third article just for political purposes. But the smart money is on keeping this narrow.

SCIUTTO: Jennifer Rodgers, constitutionally, and as we saw Nancy Pelosi utter those historic words just 30 minutes ago, she made a constitutional argument going back to the Declaration of Independence even as well, that this, in her words, his wrongdoing strikes at the very heart of our Constitution.

You had Jonathan Turley yesterday speaking as a Republican witness saying, OK, you know, these things, you know, not appropriate but they haven't proven their case.

You're a lawyer here. Based on what you've seen so far, have they made a constitutional case for his removal?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They have. Absolutely. I mean the evidence has been really compelling, as Speaker Pelosi also said. And, you know, it's a challenge to make this case here. In a regular, criminal corruption case, you always have to explain to the jury why this is important, why it matters when public officials put their own interests above the public interest because it wastes taxpayer money, it leads to improper and inappropriate and bad decision-making in government. And here the stakes are even higher.

So the trick here is to make everyone understand. And I think what Nancy Pelosi said went towards this point, why it's so problematic for the president to abuse his power in this way, to try to undermine our election, because it subverts the will, the true free will of voters and it makes us less safe because it damages our national security interests.

And that's why I disagree a little bit that they should keep it so narrow. I think they need to establish a pattern of behavior from this president in order to get him removed. This is not something that can be seen in isolation, but it's something he's done before and will be something that he will continue to do if they don't act now.

HARLOW: OK, so, John King, back to you.

Once we get the articles, the process moves forward in the Judiciary Committee. And it is tomorrow the White House has to decide if they're going to play ball or if they're not going to do anything until a Senate trial.

What are you hearing?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The White House is sending very clear signals that right now its inclination is to play no ball, if you want to use that term, with the House and to wait until what it says it wants to be a fair Senate trial. The Senate, of course, controlled by Republicans. That's an unpredictable process as well, though, because first you have to create the . The Senators don't get to jump up and give speeches whenever they want. They're mostly confined to their seats as a trial-like procedure plays out. But you do have a Republican majority.

I think, to Jennifer's point, and Julian's point in this debate about how broad the articles could go, you have to look at the politics of the moment. The speaker and the Democrats have to proceed as of today assuming this is an all-Democratic enterprise, that Democrats will vote to impeach the president in the House. There is zero evidence as we speak today that any Republicans are prepared to break.

HARLOW: Yes.

KING: They may get the vote of Justin Amash, the former Republican turned independent. So they have to proceed under the idea that they're not going to have any Republican support and that the president will not be convicted and removed in the Senate, because, again, the math today is pretty clear. That does not mean things won't change if they make a compelling case, but heading into an election year to the point of keeping this tight, the speak very much wants to keep it tight so that she keeps the Democrats together. The tighter, the shorter the articles of impeachment, the more Democratic support she has on the floor, so that the Democrats can at least say they're trying to do the right thing.

And to Jennifer's point about leading the argument, one of the president's defenses here, if you will, is that there's so much disruption in the age of Trump.

[09:35:05]

So many things he's said that, you know, provoke outrage among Democrats and the Trump base loves is that -- one of the challenge for the Democrats is to make the case that this is different, that this is not the president blowing something up on Twitter. This is not the president saying, you know, can we build a moat at the U.S./Mexico border or can we shoot them in the legs if they try to cross the border? This goes beyond that into a constitutional (INAUDIBLE). So making the case that this is not just typical Trump is different, Trump disruptive, it's critical to the Democrats in a court of public opinion.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Thank you all.

EPSTEIN: Yes, I would -- I would also take -- I would take slight issue with the notion of -- that Jennifer was suggesting. I understand her point from a legal points of view of showing the pattern by bringing in the Mueller evidence on the Russia question. But the two problems with that, and John points at one of them, the two problems with that is that the Democrats haven't really done a really exhaustive set of hearings on really the four of the ten instances in which Mueller pointed to all of the requirements of obstruction being satisfied in the Mueller report. There were four real serious ones. And -- but the Democrats haven't really done a lot of exhaustive hearings on that.

Secondly, as John points out, it divides the Democratic Party. I mean the moderates in the Democratic Party really weren't on board with impeachment on the obstruction that we saw in the Mueller report. So you're looking at something that's going to be divisive.

So, from a political point of view, I don't think it's advisable. But the question is, will Nancy Pelosi have to satisfy that part of the caucus by having something that, you know, some of the Democrats can vote for and others can vote against?

HARLOW: Thank you all so much. Julian, John, Jennifer, we appreciate it. It's a big day for sure.

We're going to talk next, right here, with a member of the House Judiciary Committee. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:41:20]

HARLOW: A very consequential day. Democrats are now officially crafting articles of impeachment against the president. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi making it official just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): The facts are uncontested. The president abused his power for his own personal, political benefit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: (INAUDIBLE) who serves on the House Judiciary Committee.

Good morning, Congressman. I really do appreciate your time this morning, especially this morning of all days.

What do you think the articles of impeachment against the president should be?

REP. STEVE COHEN (D-TN): Well, they certainly will include the abuse of power and the obstruction of Congress. It's possible we'll get to obstruction of justice. But we are a team. The Democratic caucus, the Judiciary Committee, we're all working as a team and we will see what Speaker Pelosi and her team come up with and then we'll support it.

HARLOW: OK.

Do you believe anything from the Mueller report should be included in those articles?

COHEN: What I believe and what the team proposes are maybe two different things. And I'm on the team.

HARLOW: What do you believe, sir?

COHEN: I believe that the Democratic caucus and Speaker Pelosi are leading America in the right direction, standing up for our Constitution, our oath of office, standing in the feet of the founding fathers. And we will proceed as a team.

HARLOW: Can you elaborate at all on that? It sounds to me like you're saying leadership wants to keep this narrow focused on Ukraine. You may feel differently?

COHEN: No, what I'm saying is I'm going to work with leadership.

HARLOW: OK.

COHEN: I've been a -- maybe an agitator, some in the past to bring impeachment to the floor. I'm proud we brought it to the floor. I'm proud we've got -- gotten here. It's been somewhat of a circuitous route. But at this point we all need to work together and win this game for America.

HARLOW: I understand your point. Let's move on.

One of the three tenets that Chairman Nadler set out a year ago when he was on MSNBC to move forward with impeachment is bipartisanship. Here is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY): You have to be able to think before -- at the beginning of the impeachment process that the evidence is so clear of offenses so grave that once you've laid out all the evidence, a good fraction of the opposition voters will say -- will reluctantly admit to themselves they had to do it. Otherwise you have a partisan impeachment which would tear the country apart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: OK, well, at least publicly, not a single Republican member of either chamber has voiced support for impeaching the president and removing him from office. Not a single Republican member even voted with the Democrats on the rules for impeachment.

Are you concerned at all that that third threshold laid out by Chairman Nadler himself has not been met?

COHEN: Chairman Nadler is thinking of a Republican Party that had members like Howard Baker, Barry Goldwater, what they called Rockefeller Republicans. They no longer exist.

With that as a fact, you should not have expected Republicans to follow the facts and abide by their oath. Instead, they are following Donald Trump and pledging an oath to him.

It's a different Republican Party that Jerry Nadler was talking about. We should not let this unfortunate demise of the Republican Party veto and stymie what is the correct thing to do for America and what the founding fathers dictate. That is impeachment of this president.

HARLOW: But he made that statement last November when the Republican Party was then what it is now, Congressman. He knew the make-up of Republicans in Congress and he still said, you've got to have this if you want to move forward with impeachment. And the polling hasn't moved at all after the --

COHEN: The polling has moved, Poppy. That's not true.

HARLOW: Well --

COHEN: Seventy percent of Americans favor this impeachment inquiry.

HARLOW: So --

[09:45:00]

COHEN: Fifty percent of Americans believe he should be impeached and removed from office.

HARLOW: OK.

COHEN: There's 7 percent that are undecided. That's a pretty bad position for the president.

HARLOW: So, Congressman, I hear --

COHEN: And regardless of that we're -- we have to do our oaths, we need to continue with the truth --

HARLOW: Yes.

COHEN: And we don't need to be impeded by a cult group that supports Donald Trump.

HARLOW: Just to -- just to lay out the facts for everyone. You're right and I'm right. We're talking about different polls. You're right on the 70 percent, the ABC News/"Washington Post" polling. I'm talking about the CNN polling. Pre-House Intel Committee hearings and post that showed it remaining at 50 percent.

Let's move on to something -- final question I have for you. Not exactly on this, but related. And it really, really struck me, and that is the retirement of Congressman Denny Heck. He wrote a post about it yesterday. And what struck me is the words that he used about why he is choosing to leave Congress. Let me read you some of them. Quote, the countless hours that I have spent investigating Russian election interference and the impeachment inquiry have rendered my soul weary. He goes on to say, success seems to be measured by how many Twitter followers one has, which are largely gained by saying increasingly outrageous things, the more personal the better. There are simply too many hyperbolic adjectives, too few nouns. Civility is out. Compromise is out. All or nothing is in.

Do you ever feel like that? Have you considered retiring because of it?

COHEN: I haven't considered retiring, but I have been frustrated and disappointed and sometimes have periods where I get a little down because every day there's a new revelation of something awful that's happened up here. Mostly provided by Trump. And he's the cause of the Twitter and a lot of the vitriol.

But there are Republicans, too. And it's difficult to watch them march down like lemmings to the sea. It is very disillusioning and disappointing, but at the same time today, we have a speaker that's calling on impeachment of a president who are experts, who are the experts have said are exactly what the founding fathers feared. So progress is being made. It's slow. It's difficult to make progress in Washington, but progress is being made.

HARLOW: Congressman Steve Cohen, thank you for your time. And, of course, we thank Denny Heck for serving in Congress and wish him the best in his next chapter.

Thank you so much.

COHEN: You're welcome, Poppy.

HARLOW: Well, tonight, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi will take questions on impeachment, the 2020 election and a lot more all right here only in CNN's live town hall. Jake Tapper moderates it. It begins 9:00 Eastern.

SCIUTTO: Yes, can't think of better timing for that.

Meanwhile, President Trump fuming, and the prime minister not apologizing. Canada's Justin Trudeau admits he was talking about the president on that hot mic, but he's not backing down.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:52:34]

SCIUTTO: Sources tell CNN that President Trump was fuming after the video of world leaders appearing to mock him, laughing at him, on the sidelines of the NATO summit went viral. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau now admits that he was talking about President Trump's unpredictability during the summit in London. Trudeau tried to clear the air, but crucially did not apologize to President Trump for this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUSTIN TRUDEAU, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: He was late cause he takes a four -- forty minute press conference off the top every time.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, forty minutes. He announced --

I just watched, I watched his team's jaws just drop on the floor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now is Edward Keenan. He is the Washington bureau chief for "The Toronto Star."

Edwards, I wonder that this is a president who has not been reluctant to retaliate for snubs in the past. I wonder if the prime minister, if Canada is concerned that the president might take this as an opportunity to punish Canada.

EDWARD KEENAN, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "THE TORONTO STAR": Well, I mean, I think that's certainly a fear inside the government. Not just the prime minister, but the opposition party leaders, government officials themselves. I don't think that they expect that. I think they expect that they'll be able to smooth this over.

But, at the same time, Canada is a relatively small country next to a giant, right? And -- and 70 percent of our trading is with the United States. It's a long undefended border. Our tourism industry, our national defense, to some extent, depend on the United States.

SCIUTTO: Sure.

KEENAN: So there's a fear that if Trump is very angry about this, that if it continues to be a thing and he wants to retaliate, tariffs, for example, can be (INAUDIBLE).

SCIUTTO: Which he's done before, right?

KEENAN: Yes, which he's done before. And that actually was the source of the last spat between Justin Trudeau and Donald Trump was tariffs and whether Canada could retaliate if the -- if the U.S. put tariffs in place.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEENAN: But those things do hurt the economy. I mean that said, I don't think, among the general people in Canada, this doesn't really hurt Justin Trudeau, because they're kind of laughing along.

SCIUTTO: I was going to ask, does this -- does it work politically for him then at all?

KEENAN: Yes, there's -- there's sort of a -- yes and no, right? I think in the short term, there's a tradition in Canada because of those things I mentioned, how big the United States is, how small Canada is, of respecting prime ministers when they show a little independence --

SCIUTTO: Right.

KEENAN: When they stand up to the president of the United States. And that was true of say Jean Chretien refusing George W. Bush's appeal to join the Iraq War for -- the second Iraq War.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEENAN: And that was -- that was true when Justin Trudeau's father, Pierre Trudeau, had an angry relationship with Richard Nixon.

[09:55:05]

Nixon called him bad names. Trudeau was defiant. I've been called worse things by better people, he said. And it became sort of part of his lore. So, you know, there's a tradition in Canada of enjoying seeing our

prime minister have a little spine, right, and stand up to the president.

SCIUTTO: Right.

KEENAN: I think in this case it also though looks a little catty possibly. You know, you stand in front of the cameras with him and smile and grin and then you go behind his back when you think you're off camera --

SCIUTTO: Right, which is why Trump called him two-faced, right, that was the --

KEENAN: But that said, I think Trump is not popular among Canadians. So you combine those things and I think when this was released, there was two reactions in Canada that I heard a lot of, and one was kind of like, of course he's laughing at him, right, he just came out of that press conference.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEENAN: Did you see the press conference? Trump's going on forever about his own things and then confronting him and all of that. But then, you know, there is this, especially from official channels and the editorial news pages --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEENAN: This fear is Trump is thin skinned and possibly vengeful and carries grudges and, you know, maybe this could come back to -- didn't poke the bear, right?

SCIUTTO: Right.

Well, it seemed pretty clear, as he spoke to Macron and others there, that Trudeau had a friendly audience for the news conference as well.

Edward Keenan, thanks very much for joining us.

KEENAN: Thanks, Jim.

HARLOW: All right, Senator Kamala Harris may have suspended her campaign to be president, but she might find herself right back in the 2020 race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Senator Harris as a running mate?

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Of course I would. Look, Senator Harris has the capacity to be anything she wants to be.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Kamala Harris would be on any Democrat's short list. She's smart. She's confident. She's got this terrific voice. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: There's that. And then the question of who will win over her supporters.

Errol Louis is here, CNN political commentator, host of the "You Decide" podcast.

Good to have you.

So I guess if Hillary Clinton can be Barack Obama secretary of state, anything can be bridge -- water under the bridge, even weird, awkward, tense debate moments.

Who would benefit most from Harris on their ticket, Biden or Warren, and who would she say yes to?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, really almost all of them I think really would benefit. I mean it was -- the day that she dropped out, trending on Twitter was, you know, VP or AG?

HARLOW: There you go.

LOUIS: The idea being that she's a national quality candidate for almost any top job in politics and she would help any candidate. Look, she's an effective and energetic and sort of pleasant campaigner. She seems to enjoy what she does.

HARLOW: Yes.

LOUIS: And so that's what you mostly want a vice president out there to do, a vice presidential candidate. She's also pretty good with taking it to her opponents. And you also want a vice presidential candidate to do that too.

HARLOW: That's true.

LOUIS: I think she -- she -- she probably helps Warren more, I would think, actually, in some ways.

HARLOW: OK. Right. Because Joe Biden's done so well with African- American voters and held that support.

LOUIS: Exactly right.

HARLOW: All right, now that she is out, the top of the field and all of those who qualified for the debate stage later this month are white. It's whiter and it's older.

Kamala Harris, I remember --

LOUIS: And it's richer.

HARLOW: And it's richer. Two billionaires.

Kamala Harris, I remember when she was, in January, talking about her team. She said, you are not invisible. And she announced that a majority of her staff would be minorities. I mean that -- what does this say about America in 2019, what does this tell us and what does it mean for the Democratic Party?

LOUIS: I don't -- I don't -- I don't know if it says anything about the country or even the party. It says something about this candidate and her ability or lack of ability to pull off what was a very promising start.

HARLOW: OK.

LOUIS: I mean she started, remember, 20,000 people in Oakland and, you know --

HARLOW: Yes.

LOUIS: She had all of this momentum and all of this possibility.

HARLOW: But you don't have Cory Booker up there. You don't have Julian Castro up there.

LOUIS: It's true. But, you know, I think it comes to something I noticed in the last debate, Poppy, which is that only at the end did she finally find her voice and say, we need to reassemble the Obama coalition. I don't particularly think that's a winning strategy, but it was the only real chance that she had. And she really should have said that on day one, instead of really right at the end.

HARLOW: An interesting moment in Ames, Iowa, a beautiful, wonderful place where I spent much of my childhood visiting family. Joe Biden goes there and he gets called out by a voter who essentially says, hey, this is the first time you've been to Ames. Mayor Pete Buttigieg has been here. He's the shiny, new thing. Joe Biden extends his hand and says, well, I'm going to start off by saying I need your vote. Telling?

LOUIS: Yes. Well, that's how you campaign, by the way --

HARLOW: Sure.

LOUIS: For all of the would-be politicians who are out there. It is somewhat telling. But it says, in some ways, more about Buttigieg. Buttigieg poured a ton of money and time. He's trying to frame himself as a Midwestern candidate from a nearby state. And so, not surprisingly, this person who says Buttigieg has been here a lot, maybe he's been there a lot on television, maybe he's been there a lot on radio, but, you know, nevertheless, Biden has a strategy that doesn't necessarily involve trying to win Iowa. If he has a second place finish in Iowa and/or New Hampshire, wins big in South Carolina and Nevada, he'll be on his way.

[10:00:02]

HARLOW: All right. Thank you, Errol, we appreciate it very much.

LOUIS: Thanks.