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Rudy Giuliani Travels To Europe To Meet With Ex-Ukraine Prosecutors; Rudy Giuliani Travels To Europe Meeting With Ukrainians To "Defend" Trump, Despite Federal Investigation & Impeachment Push; Hillary Clinton Opens Up About Personal Life, Losing To Trump; Women Witnesses Dominate Impeachment Inquiry Hearings. Aired 2:30-3p ET
Aired December 05, 2019 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:30:00]
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BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: If you think impeachment inquiry against Rudy Giuliani's most high-profile client detained him from visiting Ukraine, think again. Photos posted Thursday from a Ukrainian lawmaker show the President's Personal Attorney in Kyiv, Ukraine "The New York Times" reporting that Giuliani went to Ukraine and Hungary to meet with these former Ukrainian prosecutors in order to build the President's impeachment defense case and that could involve seeking dirt on the President's political rivals.
Don't adjust your screens. You heard me exactly right. Giuliani appears to still be conducting the action that triggered this entire impeachment saga. What's more, Giuliani as CNN reported is under federal criminal investigation for his ties with two Ukrainians who have been indicted and House Democrats who just held an impeachment hearing are noticing where the man is.
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REP. KAREN BASS (D-CA): But I will just say to you that the urgency that I feel is that this President has attempted to intervene in the next election, and he needs to be stopped immediately. Rudy Giuliani right now is over in the Ukraine. Who knows what he's doing? They might still be attempting to interfere in this election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: And by the way, Giuliani would not confirm to CNN that he is indeed in Ukraine but he did say this to a conservative news outlet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's the Ukraine trip all about?
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY: Well, I can't really describe it. I can't even confirm it. All I can tell you is that I am doing today, all day, and all night, maybe what I've been doing for a year and a half. I am representing my client.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Let's discuss. CNN Legal Analyst Elie Honig is back, and with me CNN's Oliver Dorcy and Kara Scannell. And so Kara, first what more do we know about this investigation into Giuliani?
KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: So I think we're beginning to see that there might be a couple different strands here. We know that prosecutors are interested in what Giuliani was doing in Ukraine as it relates the ouster of Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch and who also know that they're asking questions about Giuliani's business ties with his associates, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman who have been indicted for campaign finance violations.
They were also working with Giuliani in his efforts to dig up dirt on the Biden. And then new reporting from out team which is though real collective efforts we're learning that they're seem to be focusing in on this Ukraine state-owned natural gas company and Parnas and Fruman met with one of the executives.
[14:35:00]
SCANNELL: They wanted him to - they wanted to oust the CEO and replace him with someone they thought might be more favorable as they were pushing a business deal doing this again same at the time that they're working with Giuliani and prosecutors have now interviewed the CEO of that company.
They've reached out to and/or have interviewed four other people associated with that. So we see that they really kind of honing in on what was going on in these efforts around this Ukrainian state-owned company that could be about following the money. Remains to be seen if Giuliani will be charged with anything but we're starting to see this investigation grow.
BALDWIN: So this is sort of the - as the investigation is growing he's over there in Ukraine. And so Elie to you what must he be thinking to be going on this mission over this conspiracy theory?
ELIE HONIG, FORMER FEDERAL AND STATE PROSECUTOR: What must he be thinking I think is a question that the House Intelligence Committee, the Southern District of New York and FBI are all asking themselves as well? I don't know what Rudy Giuliani thinks the end game is here, is he going to come back to the United States with a banker's box full of documents and walk it into DOJ and get an indictment of Trump's political enemies?
But let's also remember yesterday in the impeachment hearings. One of the main themes of the constitutional law scholars sounded as if nothing is done here this conduct will just continue on and on. There needs to be a symbolic statement made. Rudy Giuliani is not doing Donald Trump any favors.
BALDWIN: How do you think what he is doing could impact the impeachment going forward?
HONIG: It depends on what he's actually doing. By all appearances he's still working with Ukrainian nationals to try to dig up items, evidence, information that could be used against a potential political opponent of Donald Trump that sort of the core fundamental thing that got us here in the first place.
BALDWIN: Oliver, let's talk about it. Who was he with? This news organization and why is he there?
OLIVER DORCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: If you judge someone by the company they keep, in this case, Rudy Giuliani is parading around Europe with conspiracy theorists. He's going with the far right media organization, One America News, to film this docuseries with Ukrainians again trying to dig up dirt on Joe Biden.
One of the reporter, the reporter presented this docuseries is totally, way out of here is a set ridge conspiracy theorist, back when she was actually hired by One America News. She was generating a lot of controversy because of cartoons she's drawn. One of them about George Soros and played off some Anti-Semitic tropes, way out there. And this is the person that Giuliani is--
BALDWIN: Associating himself with when he was on this trip?
DORCY: Right. I don't know what to tell you, it's really remarkable to say the least.
BALDWIN: Guys, thank you very much for that. How about this? Hillary Clinton finally faces the man she avoided in the run-up to the 2016 election and it got pretty interesting. So what she told Howard Stern about sex, love and President Trump, next.
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[14:40:00]
BALDWIN: Open and honest like you have never seen her before. Former Secretary of State and 2016 Presidential Candidate Hillary Clinton did not hold back during a quite candid and wide-ranging interview with SiriusXM host Howard Stern. The Former First Lady opened up on everything from losing in 2016 to loving someone other than Bill Clinton. Here is CNN National Correspondent Jason Carroll.
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HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER FIRST LADY OF UNITED STATES: You know I went to the inauguration of Donald Trump, which was one of the hardest days of my life, to be honest.
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JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And call it "Hillary Clinton Unplugged" sort of.
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HOWARD STERN, THE HOWARD STERN SHOW: Bill was the first you loved?
CLINTON: No.
STERN: No?
CLINTON: No, there was somebody before him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: For 2.5 hours the Former Democratic Presidential Candidate talked and her personal life and politics with Sirius XM's Howard Stern.
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CLINTON: By, you know, all of these measurements that they do I won these debates but it no longer matters as much. That's what bothers me. It's like, okay.
STERN: You were almost too nice.
CLINTON: Well, you know, I don't know if I was too nice but I was certainly, you know, very careful, and the reason is, look, I grew up at a time when if you were going to get through a door as a woman, you did not react to anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Among the highlights, how Clinton felt about President Trump's victory and inauguration?
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CLINTON: I mean, obviously I was crushed, I was disappointed and I was really surprised because I couldn't figure out what had happened.
STERN: And you had even written a losing speech when you lost that, you only it victory in mind.
CLINTON: No. And everything was pointed in that direction. I said to myself, as everybody who talked to me about it, look, I hope he's going to be a better President than I think he will be. I'm worried about it, but I'm going to do everything I can, as I told him when I called him that terrible night.
STERN: Oh, you did call him that night?
CLINTON: Oh, I did. I said, look, you know, look Donald, I want you to be a good President. I will do whatever I can to help you. We're in that period--
STERN: Was he gracious or was he --?
CLINTON: He was so shocked, he could barely talk.
STERN: He was shocked as you?
CLINTON: More shocked than me, I think. STERN: Wow! You were shocked?
CLINTON: Yes, he was shocked. So when I got there, go ahead, get out there. You put on the best face possible, and you know, Bill and I are sitting with George and Laura Bush, and then he started on that speech.
[14:45:00]
CLINTON: Which was so bizarre, and that's when I got really worried. Then that carnage in the street and the dark dystopian vision, I was sitting there like just, wow! Couldn't believe it and George W. Bush says to me, well, that was some weird shit.
STERN: Wow!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Clinton also took aim at Republican Leaders such as South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham a man she once worked with across the aisle when she was a New York Senator.
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CLINTON: Lindsey was good company, he was funny, he was self- deprecating and he also believed in climate change back in those days.
STERN: Really?
CLINTON: Yes.
STERN: I would say I'm concerned about the future for my children?
CLINTON: Well, he hasn't had any children but he was concerned about the future, yes, absolutely. I saw him as somebody who had been working to try to figure out what he believed and how had you could do things?
STERN: Has he sold his sole to the devil?
CLINTON: I don't know the answer to that. That's a fair question, however. And what I don't understand is how he went from being the friend and the, you know, real confidant of the maverick, John McCain, who, you know, I didn't agree with politically but I found him to be a man of integrity, a man of real strength of conviction.
Now, you know, I don't know what's happened to Lindsey Graham. I'll be honest with you. I haven't talked to him in a long - "Time" magazine has like the top 100 people and all that. One year back a couple years ago when I was in it, he wrote the tribute to me. And then now it's like - it's like he had a brain snatch. You know?
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CARROLL: Clinton uncharacteristically candid regarding whisperers about her personal life. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Well, contrary to what you may hear, I actually like men.
STERN: All right, this. That is the other thing.
CLINTON: That's the other thing.
STERN: Raise your right hand you never had a lesbian affair?
CLINTON: Never. I've never even been tempted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: There were no questions during this sit down about Former White House Interim Monica Lewinsky and the inappropriate relationship she had with then President Bill Clinton. Stern did get Clinton to open up about life and love before Bill Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STERN: You were popular.
CLINTON: I was pretty popular. Okay popular.
STERN: Right. Boys were not your problem?
CLINTON: Boys were not my problem but I never - until I met Bill met anybody I thought I would ever marry.
STERN: You were not the cheerleader type though?
CLINTON: No.
STERN: You were the studious academic?
CLINTON: Band student government, that kind of stuff. I did run for President of my high school government as I remember.
STERN: Did you win?
CLINTON: No, of course not.
STERN: Did some guy who--
CLINTON: Of course! A guy won. And then - sort of - a lot of my boyfriends they said, you know, come on. We're not going to elect a girl. What are you doing this for? Because, I have ideas what I want to do? Fine. So somebody else wins. Comes to see me and goes you know, I would really like it if you'd help me.
STERN: Oh.
CLINTON: Yes. So I said, sure.
STERN: You were really nice. CLINTON: I was nice.
STERN: I would have said--
CLINTON: I like doing things. What can I say?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Another revealing moment Clinton talked about the first date she had with Bill Clinton at a museum when they were students at Yale Law School.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STERN: No kiss at this point?
CLINTON: Well, we got there eventually.
STERN: Not at the museum?
CLINTON: Not at the museum.
STERN: I would have kissed him at the museum.
CLINTON: No, not at the museum. Well, you know I was just getting to know. In those days we did play a little hard to get in those days.
STERN: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Stern tried to press Clinton on the field of 2020 candidates and she pledged to support whoever the Democratic nominee might be though she did have a few choice words for Bernie Sanders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STERN: Do you hate Bernie Sanders?
CLINTON: No. I don't hate anybody.
STERN: Bernie could have endorsed you quicker.
CLINTON: Yes, he hurt me. There is no doubt that he hurt me but going back to the indictments, that's what really important.
STERN: Have you ever spoken to Bernie about that?
CLINTON: No, I don't talk to him. He finally endorsed me.
STERN: But you're upset with him?
CLINTON: Yes, disappointed. I hope he doesn't do it again, to whoever gets the nomination. Once is enough. (END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.
BALDWIN: Ah, there is so much to discuss. Jason, thank you for all of that. Ana Navarro is a CNN Political Commentator; Jill Filipovic is a lawyer and CNN Contributing Opinion Writer who writes about gender and politics in the law. Ladies, first of all can we all agree that Howard Stern is a genius interviewer and number two, Jill, first to you, just on Hillary Clinton.
Like, where was that candid, raw authentic Hillary Clinton in 2015- 2016? Do you think if he'd have seen more of that Hillary Clinton that we would have had a different outcome?
JILL FILIPOVIC, CNN CONTRIBUTING OPINION WRITER: No. I don't. I think we did see glimpses of that Hillary Clinton. For example, in her comment about Trump voter, some Trump voters being in a basket of deplorable and she were hammered for it.
[14:50:00]
FILIPOVIC: We really, really like women when they're not competing for power. As soon as they are competing for power, all of a sudden an entire massive field of land mines in front of them kind of just waits for them to step in it. So I love this interview. It was funny; it was refreshing, but, no. I think if Hillary had been less controlled she would have been hammered for that as well.
BALDWIN: It's interesting. Ana Navarro, the story that she tells on Howard Stern is asking her about Inauguration Day, right? What was going through your head? She said she was crushed, and she was surprised, there in a First Lady capacity. And she was saying that Howard, I hope he'll be a better President than I think he will be.
And she was sitting there with her husband and Former President George W. Bush and Laura Bush and then he started with on that speech. I remember standing listening to it, you know, from the mall and the phrases about carnage in the street and dark dystopian vision and she said Bush 43 turned to her and said well, that was some weird S-H-I-T. Remember when we thought that would be shocking?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Actually it shouldn't be shocking because I think most of the country was having the exact same reaction at the same exact time. That was weird. Wasn't it?
Look, I love this Hillary Clinton. She's 72. She is rich. She doesn't need to prove anything. She's not running again for anything. She is liberated. She is unplugged. She is unfiltered. I feel like a Hillary Clinton that you could be having a drink with and telling stories. The truth is she's got very interesting stories to tell.
She's led a fascinating life, and I'm glad she's gotten to this point where, she can do this and get it all off her chest and not have to feel restraint. Remember, this woman has been First Lady of Arkansas. First lady of the United States, Senator, Secretary of State, Candidate so for decades, for decades, she has been--
BALDWIN: She has had the color within the lines.
NAVARRO: --restrained and constrained and she has been within - having to color within the lines. She's finally free!
BALDWIN: Yes. As she's coloring outside the lines now she talks about Lindsey Graham and having his brain snatched and the question was so great from Howard on Lindsey Graham. Has he sold his soul to the devil? You know the man. Hillary Clinton makes this point. What happened? What do you think, Ana Navarro happened to Lindsey Graham from the go from President or been just Donald Trump a nut job to being this ardent supporter of the President?
NAVARRO: To quote George W. Bush, that's some weird - S-H-I-T. Look - I don't know. Okay? I think it almost takes psychoanalysis and I'm not capable of it to tell you what has happened. I do think some political realities are that when he was confronting Trump, when Trump was giving away his phone number and attacking him, Lindsey Graham was dead in the water, when it came to a primary in South Carolina.
Right now he walks on water. He is untouchable and is going to win again. I also think Lindsey has convinced himself that he can have some influence on Trump on some of the issues that he really cares about. Namely, foreign policy and military issues and I think that's a fig leaf he's offering himself, but, look.
You know, psycho babbles a little. I think Lindsey likes being somebody's junior. I think he likes having almost like - figure, it used to be John McCain. John is no longer here, and you know, somebody to pal around with, and - lastly, Brooke, it's nice to get invited on Air Force One. It's nice to get invited to the White House. It's nice to have access and be on first-name basis with Donald Trump and be able to golf at Mar-a-Lago. So it's got all sorts of fringe benefits for him.
BALDWIN: Sure.
NAVARRO: Other than that, it's weird.
BALDWIN: Yes. Last question on these impeachment hearings right? I just wanted to highlight some of these female powerhouses who have been testifying. So what do you make of these women who have been dominating?
FILIPOVIC: It's incredibly impressive I also think it's telling that these are women of a certain generation right? When you had so few female role models in positions of power in the Foreign Service in elected office and I think the reality is for a lot of women - women still, but especially women of for example, my mom's generation, you really did have to be twice as good, three times as competent to succeed.
And I think we're seeing that. You see how these women are showing up. They are immaculately prepared, they are incredibly articulate and obviously deeply intelligent and doing this great service in defense of this country. And I think one of the reasons they do stand out so much is because women generally just have to perform at a higher caliber.
[14:55:00]
FILIPOVIC: Mediocrity especially for women now in their 50s, 60s, 70s, wasn't an option.
BALDWIN: You can't just be good. I think you said this to my producer. You can't just be good. You have to be great and they have been great. Jill, thank you so much. Good to have you on. Ana Navarro, it's a pleasure. Thank you, my friends.
Let's move along. President Trump dares Democrats to impeach him and impeach him fast. And House Speaker Nancy Pelosi accepts the challenge saying she has no choice but to proceed with articles of impeachment. What is next? We'll have that conversation also I'll speak with the producer who found that hot mic moment that caused an international back and forth.
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BALDWIN: We are now at the top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. Thank you for being here. We have some breaking news coming in from the Pentagon involving thousands of U.S. troops. So let's go straight to our Pentagon Correspondent.
