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Giuliani Back in Ukraine; House Proceeds With Articles of Impeachment; U.S. Considers Deploying Thousands of Troops to Middle East. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 05, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:07]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: All right, we are near the top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. Thank you for being here.

We have some breaking news coming in from the Pentagon involving thousands of U.S. troops.

So, let's go straight to our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr.

And, Barbara, what are you hearing?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Brooke.

Well, the Pentagon is now seriously considering sending thousands of additional troops to the Middle East as further additional deterrence against potential Iranian provocations.

What we are being told, the range, the most realistic right now they're looking at, an additional 4,000 to 7000 U.S. troops, mostly devoted to air defense. And that is because Iran recently has moved a number of ballistic missiles into Iraq, could pose a threat to U.S. troops in Iraq, could pose a threat to Saudi Arabia, Iran moving all of this into Iraq, and Iran also stepping up its rocket attacks.

The Pentagon has pushed back since last night against some reports that it's looking at sending up to 14,000 troops to the region. We're told that is not what they're looking at. It's much more in the range 4,000 to 7,000 troops to the Middle East, further deterrence against Iran.

No firm decision has been made yet -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Got it. Barbara, thank you very much.

From the Pentagon to the halls of Congress and the West Wing, anticipation and speculation about what happens next in this impeachment inquiry into President Trump.

One thing we definitely do know, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, after initially resisting calls from some of her caucus to even pursue impeachment, is now firmly in favor of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): The president leaves us no choice but to act, because he is trying to corrupt once again the election for his own benefit.

Sadly, but with confidence and humility, with allegiance to our founders, and our hearts full of love for America, today, I'm asking our chairman to proceed with articles of impeachment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's begin with CNN's Lauren Fox. She is there on Capitol Hill.

And so, Lauren, the president says he wants this process to be fast. And then, when you just take a look at a calendar laid out by House Democrats, he may get his wish. We will flash the calendar up. A full House vote could take place, they're saying, the week before Christmas.

But my question to you is, what should we expect before then?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, there's quite a few steps, Brooke, in between now and that vote on the House floor.

One of them, they have to draft the articles of impeachment. That is a process that takes a little bit of time. And I will tell you that, while it's very clear what direction they're headed in -- they're looking at obstruction of Congress, they're looking at abuse of power, potentially obstruction of justice related to the Mueller report. That's still a debate within the Democratic Caucus.

But there is a step-by-step process for this. Next week, they're going to have a another hearing where they will have a presentation in the Judiciary Committee from House lawyers, who will go over the findings so far, because, remember, the Intelligence Committee had a two-month investigation, where they gathered quite a bit of information.

That will all be presented again in a form that can be seen on Americans' television screens. So that gives you a sense of where they're going to be in the House of Representatives. They're also going to have to vote out the articles of impeachment from the committee.

Then you get to the vote on the House floor, but, of course, not very much time until Christmas. So that gives you a sense of just how quickly this could all unfold -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Quickly, indeed. Lauren, thank you for that.

And for months, critics of the impeachment inquiry have claimed that this whole thing is nothing but a partisan exercise based on Democrats' hatred of President Trump.

In fact, one of Trump's biggest allies, Georgia Congressman Doug Collins, repeated that belief during Wednesday's hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DOUG COLLINS (R-GA): The chairman talked a lot about the founders from the quotes. And, again, this is why we have the hearing, about the founders being concerned about foreign influence.

But what he also didn't quote was the founder being really, really concerned about political impeachment because you just don't like the guy. You haven't liked him since November of 2016.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Well, this is what happened when a reporter from Sinclair Broadcast Group actually asked Speaker Pelosi this morning if that was true.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Do you hate the president, Madam Speaker?

PELOSI: I don't hate anybody.

QUESTION: Representative Collins -- reason I asked...

PELOSI: I don't -- I was raised in a Catholic house. We don't hate anybody, not anybody in the world.

So, don't accuse me...

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: I did not accuse you.

PELOSI: You did. You did.

QUESTION: I asked a question.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: Representative Collins yesterday suggested that the Democrats are doing this simply because they don't like the guy.

PELOSI: That has nothing do with -- let me just say that...

QUESTION: I think it's an important point.

PELOSI: I think the president is a coward when it comes to helping kids who are afraid of gun violence.

I think he is cruel when he doesn't deal with helping our dreamers, of which we're very proud. I think he's in denial about the concept -- about the climate crisis.

[15:05:01]

However, that's about the election. This is about the election. Take it up in the election.

This is about the Constitution of the United States and the facts that leads to the president's violation of his oath of office. And, as a Catholic, I resent, your using the word hate in a sentence that addresses me.

I don't hate anyone. I was raised in a way that is full -- a heart full of love, and always pray for the president. And I still pray for the president. I pray for the president all the time.

So, don't mess with me when it comes to words like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: "Don't mess with me," Speaker Pelosi there this morning.

And as Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is mapping out his strategy on the Senate side, CNN has learned that he's been reading a book about how this unique process was handled with previous presidents.

It's called "Impeachment: An American History."

And one of its authors, CNN presidential historian Jeffrey Engel, is with me now live from Dallas. He is also the founder director of the Center for Presidential History at SMU, Southern Methodist University.

So, Jeffrey Engel, a pleasure to have you on.

And I just have to ask first your reaction when you heard Leader McConnell is studying up on impeachment by reading your book?

JEFFREY ENGEL, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: You know, I have to say it was basically every historian's dream.

(LAUGHTER)

ENGEL: I mean, we all talk about writing things that will actually influence policy and influence policy-makers.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ENGEL: So, the idea that the majority leader was looking back, not only to understand history, which I think is really critical, but to look back at the nonpartisan history that we tried to write, to present a case to the country to understand what happened in the past, so we can better go forward in the future, my graduate adviser is probably pretty proud.

BALDWIN: Pretty, pretty, pretty proud.

In terms of what you wrote about, you write about how impeachment is a double-edged sword, right? And we could definitely see that after the president said he wants the Bidens, he wants Adam Schiff, the Intel chairman, he wants Speaker Pelosi all to testify.

What will happen if the Republicans actually call them?

ENGEL: You know, that's a great question. Likely, they're going to actually testify.

I mean, one of the things that was successful, I think, in the sense of getting the bipartisanship that was necessary for a general national consensus in the Watergate era was that Representative Rodino, who was in charge of the Judiciary Committee at that time, really basically said, whatever the minority wants, whatever Republicans want in that case, we're going to say yes.

And I would not be surprised to see a similar thing go forward with the Judiciary now, where essentially, in order to combat the idea that this is an unfair process in some way to the president, that the Senate -- that the majority leader will -- excuse me -- the majority leader in the committee will essentially say yes to whatever the minority wants to calling whatever witnesses they want, and then basically let the facts fall out as those witnesses explain it.

BALDWIN: Wow.

What about the Democrats, Jeffrey? What do you make of how they have handled the proceedings so far?

ENGEL: You know, I think they're actually falling into the same historical trap that they actually exploited in 1999 for President Clinton.

Back in 1999, they were the ones who were arguing about process. They were the ones who were arguing that this was an unfair, partisan event. In fact, Richard Gephardt, who was the House minority leader, the Democratic leader at the time, used to say that we're going to win this thing by losing.

That is to say, that we're going to have as many votes as possible, procedural votes, small votes, didn't matter what the vote was on. So long as there was a vote, and we could turn to our constituents afterwards and say, look, that vote went down on partisan lines...

BALDWIN: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

ENGEL: ... well, that essentially told -- yes, told the American people that this was essentially a partisan event.

And I think the Democrats are essentially falling into that same trap, that the Republicans are wisely using their playbook from 25 years before.

BALDWIN: Also, the pace at which the Democrats are taking all of this has been a talking point for both sides, but it doesn't appear either Leader McConnell or President Trump are on the same page.

You have McConnell saying that the proceedings are too rushed. Trump tweeting today, saying, let's go, rush it. Which way is up, Jeffrey? ENGEL: You know, I think we have to really take what President Trump

says with the largest grain of salt possible.

If he really wanted to rush the process, of course, he would allow the people who he is currently not allowing to testify from his executive branch, from executive office, from his White House staff to testify.

That would speed things up tremendously, and essentially allow the American people to see everything that the Republicans are currently claiming they can't get the evidence for. Well, because the people who have the evidence are not being allowed to speak.

Now, one big difference I think that we're going to see within -- the difference between today and within 1999, Clinton's impeachment, is that, in '99, both the Senate minority and majority leader, Trent Lott and Tom Daschle, were in agreement that Clinton should not be found guilty, that he had not committed a high crime, a crime, yes, but not a high crime against the state.

I don't think we're going to see any sort agreement of that kind between the Senate -- in the Senate today between Republicans and Democrats. This one, I think, is going to be one that the partisanship is going to be not just for show, but really vehement.

[15:10:08]

BALDWIN: Yes. We are in a whole new hyperpartisan reality.

Jeffrey Engel, the man who wrote the book that the Senate leader is reading, thank you so much, sir, to have you on and all your expertise.

Also, just to all of you watching, an important programming note. Speaker Nancy Pelosi will be on CNN tonight in a special CNN town hall taking questions from the audience. Jake Tapper is moderating this, this evening at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

A federal investigation and facts cannot stop Rudy Giuliani. He is on this new mission to pursue debunked conspiracy theories on a pro-Trump news network. So what exactly is he up to?

And Joe Biden was just confronted by a voter at a campaign event, calling him a -- quote, unquote -- "damn liar" and even challenging the guy to a pushup contest. So we will play that entire exchange for you.

We're also talking to the producer who was rolling on that viral hot mic moment when world leaders were caught laughing at President Trump -- the story behind the story coming up.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:57]

BALDWIN: We're back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

It looks like the presidential campaign trail in Iowa getting a bit intense. Democratic front-runner Joe Biden just got into it with a local voter. Words were exchanged, and then a challenge.

Watch for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you, on the other hand, sent your son over there to get a job and work for a gas company, that he had no experience with gas or nothing, in order to get access for the president.

So you're -- you're selling access to the president, just like he was.

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You're a damn liar, man. That's not true. And no one has ever said that.

Let him go. Let him go.

Look, the reason I'm running is because I have been around a long time, and I know more than most people know. And I get things done. And that's why I'm running.

And if you want to check my shape on it, let's do pushups together here, man.. Let's do -- let's run. Let's do whatever you want to do.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BIDEN: Number two, number two, no one ha said my son has done anything wrong. And I did not on any occasion -- and no one has ever said it, not one...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't say you were doing anything wrong.

(CROSSTALK)

BIDEN: You said I set up my son to work at an oil company. Isn't that what you said?

Get your words straight, Jack.

Look, here's the deal. Here's the deal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like you don't have any more backbone than Trump does.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let the guy talk. Let him talk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Wow. CNN's Jessica Dean is with the former vice president there in Iowa, spoke with him afterward. Maeve Reston is with us, our CNN national political reporter.

Jessica, let me just start with you.

What more did the former vice president have to say there? That was quite a moment.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it was quite a moment and back and forth. And you heard the crowd getting into it as well.

This was certainly -- this is not what Joe Biden wants to be talking about on the campaign trail, these unsubstantiated claims that are being spread by President Trump. And he went back and forth with that voter.

When we asked about him -- we asked him about it afterward, he said, look, I was just trying to shut it down. I didn't lose my temper, he said. I just wanted to shut this down and tell this man that this wasn't appropriate in this setting.

And what I was curious about, Brooke, what I asked him about was, look, do you ever get frustrated that you're here in Iowa for eight days trying to take your message to voters, and this is the questions that follow you around, that do come back up?

Here's what he had to say about that. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Look, one of the things that is a competing instinct is, I have overwhelming respect and love for my son. And I find myself occasionally getting frustrated that assertions would be made that are simply not accurate.

But as my son would say, dad, just keep your cool. Just don't let it get to you.

I mean, so -- and I'm not -- I'm just not going to let myself respond to the kinds of assertions that Trump is making, because it will just play into his game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: And, Brooke, that's what we have heard from him here on the bus tour when people ask him about taking on President Trump or when he's pitching himself to them.

He says, look, I want to play my own game. I want to -- I want to run my own race in a way and not get down in it with President Trump.

And what's interesting to also consider is, for some Democrats, they see him pushing back like this and they like that, because they think that it means he can take on President Trump.

BALDWIN: Shows toughness, yes.

DEAN: So, you kind of see both sides there.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

Maeve, it was interesting, just listening to that again, it almost -- I wonder if he will have to deal with this. Like, I wonder if this is a bit of a microcosm moment of...

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, for sure.

BALDWIN: ... Hunter Biden, Burisma. It's in the bloodstream. We know why it's in the bloodstream.

But is he going to continue to have to defend himself and his son?

RESTON: Absolutely, Brooke.

[15:20:00]

And, I mean, you can bet that Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani are not dropping this any time soon, nor any of the Republicans in Washington who brought it up every chance they had at the hearings.

And I actually think that this was a good moment for Biden. Maybe he went a little too far with the "damn liar" thing.

But, to Jessica's point, this is exactly what Democrats want to see from him. They want to see that he's going to beat back these conspiracy theories, he's going to defend himself, he's going to come off as sharp and not going to let Trump to define him.

If we remember anything from the 2016 campaign, it's that Trump is a genius at that. He sets the narrative of who someone is. And with Biden, he's obviously tried to paint him as someone who's corrupt, someone who tried to get things done for his son.

And none of that is true, according to our reporting. And so I think that Biden does have to very strongly take these on when he has these confrontations with voters. And it's not bad for people to see that side of him, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes. In the end, Americans get to be the judge.

Maeve, thank you, Maeve Reston in L.A. for us.

RESTON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: How about this story?

Attorney General Bill Barr, the top cop in the United States, just suggested that communities who protest police brutality might find themselves without protection. We will explore that.

Plus, while under the microscope of a federal investigation, the president's attorney Rudy Giuliani is finding time to travel to Europe to dig even deeper on debunked conspiracy theories. What the heck is he doing?

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:27]

BALDWIN: Rudy Giuliani, the man can't seem to quit Ukraine, despite the fact that his actions there helped set off the impeachment process against the president of the United States.

"The New York Times" reports Giuliani is back in Ukraine. These pictures posted today show the president's personal attorney in Kiev with a Ukrainian lawyer. And "The Times 'is reporting that Giuliani went to Ukraine and Hungary to meet with these former Ukrainian prosecutors in order to build the president's impeachment defense case.

Giuliani would not confirm that to CNN that he's actually in Ukraine, but he did say this to a conservative news outlet:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: What's the Ukraine trip all about?

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Well, I can't really describe it. I can't even confirm it.

All I can tell you is that I am doing today, all day, and all night maybe, what I have been doing for a year-and-a-half. I representing my client.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Matthew Rosenberg is a CNN national security analyst and an investigative correspondent for "The New York Times."

So, Matt, let's start with, who's he meeting with, according to "The Times"?

MATTHEW ROSENBERG, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So, he's meeting with three different people who are at the center of this entire Ukraine story.

He's meeting with the foreign prosecutor...

BALDWIN: Lutsenko.

ROSENBERG: Lutsenko, who's -- thank you -- who is the very good prosecutor Trump talked about on his phone call, phone call with Ukraine's president back in July.

He's somebody who has -- who helped get this entire ball rolling when he met with Giuliani in January in Giuliani's office in New York and kind of briefed him on this idea, this whole story of this Biden kind of corruption investigation.

You know, he's also meeting with another former prosecutor general, Shokin, who is the guy who Vice President Biden was insisting be fired back in 20 -- back when he was in office in 2016.

And that was part of a push by both the U.S. and its European allies to clean up Ukraine. He was seen as a corrupt prosecutor. Biden had gone to Ukraine and said, look, you're not going to get your aid guarantees for like a billion dollars unless you fire this guy. He was fired.

He's also meeting with another former official -- sorry -- a current prosecutor, who has done this entire dossier kind of laying out this corruption case against Hunter Biden and Burisma, the Ukrainian company on whose board he was.

So it's kind of like a murderer's row of Ukrainians who are the center of this entire Ukraine kind of issue.

BALDWIN: And he's at the center of it, and he's not just reportedly committing the same offenses, right, that led to this impeachment inquiry.

ROSENBERG: Yes.

BALDWIN: But, again, a reminder to everyone, he's also under criminal investigation for all of this work of his linked to Ukraine.

And Giuliani was also asked about that. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Are you in Ukraine also gathering evidence to support your own defense?

GIULIANI: I am not here to -- I don't have to defend myself. I didn't do anything wrong.

QUESTION: OK. All right.

GIULIANI: I didn't do a darn thing wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, again, he's now being investigated by the same entity that he was in charge of in New York.

What is he thinking? Why take this risk?

ROSENBERG: I mean, it's kind of wonderfully brazen.

As my colleagues who broke the story pointed out, he's there kind of filming this documentary series, which is kind of it's being done by One America News, and it's being presented as a Republican alternative to the entire impeachment theory, to this idea of Trump using his office to try and extort Ukrainians. This is the alternative, which is that, you know, it's really the

Democrats who are corrupt, it's the Democrats who tried to interfere in the election.

And so -- so, Rudy is there kind of doing as part of -- they're filming this documentary to try and push that idea.

You know, I don't know

[15:30:00]