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Giuliani Travels to Europe Meeting with Ukrainians to Defend Trump; Barr's Handpicked Prosecutor Found No Evidence of Spy Conspiracy; How a Producer Caught World Leaders Mocking Trump; Trump and White House Prepare to Bullish at Senate Impeachment Trial; Barr Says If You Protest Cops, You Could Lose Their Protection. Aired 3:30- 4p ET

Aired December 05, 2019 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

MATT ROSENBERG, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: -- in the election. And so Rudy there kind of you know doing as part of their filming this documentary, they're trying to push that idea. You know, I don't know what's in his head. I don't think any of us do at this point.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROSENBERG: But you know, this as I said, a wonderful brazen kind of way going about it.

BALDWIN: Yes, with this reporter who's been you know leading and in the thick of a number of conspiracy theories herself. Let me ask you, Matt, just switching gears into the federal investigation into the origins of the Trump-Russia investigation. Sources say the federal prosecutor tasked with leading this -- this is John Durham -- told the Attorney General Bill Barr that he provided no evidence to back up the claim that the FBI spied on the Trump campaign. Do you think that Bill Barr will accept that as the final say on how that investigation began?

ROSENBERG: I mean, I imagine at some point he's going to have to. You know, it looks like the IG who's doing a separate investigation has also found the same thing. And that you know you've got two different investigations coming to the same conclusion. You know, the President can say black is white, or up is down as much as he wants, but it doesn't make it true. And the facts line up.

You know, we know a tremendous amount about the Mueller investigation now. We know how this Russia investigation started. We know even that you know when they found two of their leading members on Mueller's team had exchanged anti-Trump text messages, they fired them immediately and were very clear about that. And so this idea there's something else there, some "there" there we don't know, at some point the facts don't add up and I don't know how Barr avoids kind of accepting that message.

BALDWIN: Matt Rosenberg. Good to have you on. Thank you.

ROSENBERG: Thank you.

BALDWIN: How about this hot mic moment that had President Trump fuming when world leaders were all gathered there appeared to mock him. Coming up next, we'll talk to the man who captured this candid moment.

[15:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Fumes, annoyed, bothered. People close to President Trump are telling our White House correspondents that that is how President Trump reacted after this video went viral prompting the President to call Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau two-faced.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS JOHNSON, PRIME MINISTER, UK: Is that why you were late?

EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT, FRANCE: [INAUDIBLE]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU, PRIME MINISTER, CANADA: He was late because he takes a four -- forty-minute press conference off the top every time.

Oh, yes, yes, yes, forty minutes. He announced -- I just watched, I watched his team's jaws just drop to the floor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That hot mic moment was discovered by a parliamentary producer for the CBC, that's the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and I talked to that producer, Chris Rands just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So this is essentially a master class, what you have done in field producing. And you know, for the viewer who sees this moment play out across the world it's this huge moment, but for you, how much tape were you scrolling through before you found this nugget of gold?

CHRIS RANDS, PARLIAMENTARY PRODUCER, CBC: You know, Brooke, I wasn't -- there wasn't that much tape to look at. For real folks who never look at TV feeds, summits are really a bunch of moments. The leaders arrive and the limos arrive, and one by one by one they get out or they walk into a room and then there's sort of some interaction with somebody and then it's over. And what happened was, it was about 3:10 in the afternoon Eastern time, and I was looking for some extra pictures to go with a television item, my correspondent, Evan Dyer, was sending from London traveling with the Prime Minister, and I was going through the Royal Palace feed. That is the feed that we were all receiving.

BALDWIN: Sure.

RANDS: And, you know, Prime Minister Trudeau had arrived, he had been greeted by the naval officers. He was in the cocktail party and the pool photographer from the palace, the one photographer assigned for this photo op found a moment where there was a -- I would call it a lady in waiting. Someone from the palace household staff wearing a blue dress, and she was blocking the Prime Ministers, the Netherlands, Canada, U.K., Princess Anne and President Macron of France.

And then she moved out of the way and then suddenly there is my Prime Minister.

BALDWIN: Bam.

RANDS: Bam, the subject. And he looks like he's telling you a story at the local bar downstairs from CNN Center. He is gesticulating. He is animated. He is not the political self. He's telling a story, and I thought, OK. He sometimes says things, not bad things, not good things, just he says things. He's a human being. So let's see what I can hear. And that's when I started to hear 40 minutes, press conference, Doral, jaws drop.

BALDWIN: Doral was the key word. That's when the penny drops and then you said, ah-hah. They're talking about the President of the United States. Is that what it was?

RANDS: Well, Yes, yes. It seemed to me like they were. And we were lucky, because Prime Minister Trudeau was facing the camera, and you know, those of us who have worked with long-range microphones are very directional whether they're at an NFL game trying to catch the staff or at a photo op, and I could hear the Prime Minister, because he was facing the camera. You just -- using my hands here. He's facing. Everybody else was a little bit off. So you know, that's who I could hear. And in television, we have four channels of audio usually so we went upstairs, the edit suite, tried which one we could.

[15:40:00]

And then we ran it through a program to try and get rid of the white noise. Think of it, it was like you know your old cassette players trying to get rid of the hiss. That's what we were doing. And it was group effort. You know, the production team here at "Power and Politics," our big TV political show was into it. They put it together with the tweet, and shazam, I guess.

BALDWIN: Shazam, indeed, Chris. And I mean the fact that you basically caused an international incident in your astuteness in television producing you know between these two world leaders, has that sunk in? And what's your reaction to that? Last question.

RANDS: My wife mentioned to me when I got home. I, you know -- the human part of anyone is to giggle. Because, you know, no one has been physically harmed by this. But a lot of people, a lot of political staff and others have had to do a lot of work behind the scenes including the Prime Minister and others to reconnect after that.

So -- you know, there is, I don't know. There's a human factor of, oh. Oh, geez. He But this is what you do. You can't cover this up. You see it. It was a sanctioned photo opportunity, and you just happen to listen, and you could make out some words, and summits are very staged as you know. There's not a lot of pictures, and we're all looking for interactions in those five-minute little moments where we see the leaders interact. So that's what we have.

BALDWIN: And you found it, and it was indeed something. Chris, thank you so much. We just wanted to hear the story behind the story. Good to have you on.

RANDS: Really appreciate it.

BALDWIN: Pretty cool. How about this? House Speaker Nancy Pelosi accepts the President's challenge and announces that the House is moving forward with articles of impeachment. How aggressive though will they be? How past lessons could inform the monumental task before the U.S. House.

[15:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Now that the case has been laid out before the American public, Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee now must decide which articles of impeachment to draft against President Trump. And lawmakers kicked off their first public hearing with expert witnesses yesterday. Most of whom agreed that the President committed impeachment acts under the rule of law.

So what happens next and what happens you know just when you lift the veil with these House members? So Elaine Godfrey is an assistant editor with "The Atlantic" who interviewed this former Republican lawmaker by the name of James Rogan, who was on the House Judiciary Committee, that helped impeach former President Bill Clinton. So Elaine, fascinating interview. Welcome.

ELAINE GODFREY, ASSISTANT EDITOR, "THE ATLANTIC": Thanks for having me, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Not only was Mr. Rogan on House Judiciary, as you point out, he was this former judge, former federal prosecutor who they really you know leaned on to help draft these articles. In fact as you point out, his handwritten notes were on display for years at the Smithsonian. So take us inside the process and what did James Rogan share with you?

GODFREY: Right, so James Rogan, is one of the very few people in history who have been part of this historic process to build a case against a sitting President. And he basically told me, number one, that it was really exhausting. But number two, that as a former prosecutor it was also extremely exhilarating for him. He said, quote, it was the time of my life. As controversial as that may seem. But he described late nights with a small group of his fellow Republicans and then chairman Henry Hyde going through the Starr report and pulling out the 11 potential impeachable offenses and narrowing it down to four.

BALDWIN: With the current situation, you know, one point of discussion for Democrats is whether they broaden out the articles to include the Mueller report. And what's interesting is what Rogan told you about the political discussions that were happening in '98 among Republicans, right? Where members of Congress would say to him, you know, hey, I'm in a marginal district. Can you throw some articles that I can vote against? Tell me more about that.

GODFREY: Right. So right now Democrats are debating. We've seen from reports and from my own reporting. Democrats are in disagreement whether to write up articles that are just focused on Ukraine or whether to go broader. To paint a broad portrait of the President's wrongdoing. And they had the same -- I asked Rogan if they had similar questions in 1998. And they totally did. He said he really wanted to include other scandals that Clinton was allegedly a part of in the articles. But it turned out in 1998, impeachment was a really unpopular thing. So ultimately, they tried to keep it extremely narrow and they ended up just sticking with the Starr report.

BALDWIN: Keeping it narrow. And then just --

GODFREY: Yes.

BALDWIN: -- lastly back to your point, him saying, you know, I had the time of my life. You asked him about his attitude toward the process as was you know in the throes of history. And what did he tell you?

GODFREY: He told me that he knew going in it was going to be challenging for him politically because he comes from a pretty left- leaning district northeast of Los Angeles, or he did come from that district. And impeachment was not popular there, but he was really supportive of the process. So he went in knowing this is going to be the trial of my life and I probably won't win reelection.

[15:50:00]

And he ended up not winning reelection. He lost by about nine points -- fun facts.

BALDWIN: To Adam --

GODFREY: To Adam Schiff.

BALDWIN: Adam Schiff.

GODFREY: Yes. Now the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, which is sort of full circle.

BALDWIN: How about that?

GODFREY: Yes. Yes.

BALDWIN: Elaine Godfrey, thank you for sharing. Good to have you on.

GODFREY: Thanks so much.

BALDWIN: Attorney General Bill Barr issues a veiled threat at communities that protest law enforcement, warning that they risk losing the very protection officers are sworn to give.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:55:00]

BALDWIN: To serve and protect, those are the words that motivate and inspire people to join the police force. For many, it's a true calling, but Attorney General Bill Barr thinks some communities don't show enough appreciation for the men and women who put their lives on the line 24/7. He suggests that if you are critical of the police force, maybe you don't deserve their protection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Today American people have to focus on something else, which is the sacrifice and the service that is given by our law enforcement officers. And they have to start showing more than they do, the respect and support that law enforcement deserves. And if communities don't give that support and respect, they might find themselves without the police protection they need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Vanita Gupta was in charge of the civil rights division of the Justice Department in the Obama administration. So Vanita, thank you so much for being here. And listening to Bill Barr, how do you interpret his remark and what communities do you think he is talking about here?

VANITA GUPTA, HEADED CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION OF OBAMA JUSTICE DEPARTMENT (via Skype): Well, it seems pretty undoubtable that Bill Barr, the nation's highest law enforcement official of the land was talking about communities of color that have in recent years been expressing a lot of concern about policing practices, are speaking out increasing about the need for police reform. And to have him do that to me is the height of irresponsibility given that we have equal protection under the laws of this country, and he is the Attorney General of the United States.

BALDWIN: We were looking back, of course, into other things that he has spoken about, and as Attorney General he has attacked liberal district attorneys who've pushed for police accountability in cities like Philadelphia and St. Louis and also in previous speeches has suggested there should be, quote, zero tolerance for resisting police. And you know, on the one hand, Vanita, of course, he is right. You know, people should not resist police, but does he take it too far?

GUPTA: His comments in the speech this week I think are way beyond anything he has said before. He's literally advocating in those words abandoning communities that have been increasingly engaged in the fight for police reform, that are criticizing police practices, many of whom are urging and working with local law enforcement around the country to enact these reforms. This notion that -- that the Attorney General would abandon communities that engage in constitutionally protected activity, activity that is profoundly American --

BALDWIN: And I also really wanted to ask about, you know, in listening to him he also drew this curious parallel criticizing Vietnam era protest and claiming people who protest against police today are not showing enough respect and support for law enforcement. What are members of law enforcement saying about that?

GUPTA: I mean, you know, there are a number of police chiefs that think that the rhetoric and the politicization of law enforcement in this administration has been really, really damaging. These kinds of comments further erode the breach between communities and law enforcement, and we need to understand that trust is a cornerstone for public safety in any community.

Police officers need to have legitimacy in their communities in order to have witnesses report crimes to police, in order for head of communities to serve as co-creators of public safety. And when you have these kind of comments that really create and widen the gulf, this is actually detrimental to public safety. It undermines trust.

BALDWIN: Be specific. I'm curious, a final question.

GUPTA: Yes.

BALDWIN: When that trust, that the relationship between community and police is so key, when that trust is eroded, what is the result of that?

GUPTA: The result is victims stop reporting to law enforcement. The result is police officers can't get witnesses to crimes to give them information in their communities. The result is that you can result in actual violence and harassment that takes us back, and it doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't serve police officers. It doesn't serve members of the community, and that is why you have law enforcement chiefs around the country also just shaking their heads at these comments.

They are not helpful and they actually are incredibly corrosive to the longer-term effort to ensure that policing is fair and just in America.

BALDWIN: Vanita Gupta, thank you.

GUPTA: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And quick note before I let you go, do not forget Speaker Nancy Pelosi will be on "CNN Tonight" in a special "CNN TOWN HALL." She'll be taking questions from the audience. Jake Tapper will be moderating. Do not miss this. It happens tonight, 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me. Let's go to Washington. "THE LEAD" starts right now.

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