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Collision Course Looms Over Trump's Demands for Senate Trial; Nancy Pelosi's Moment; Interview with Christine Pelosi; Giuliani Continues Bid to Dig Dirt on Trump Rivals in Ukraine. Aired 2:30-3p ET
Aired December 06, 2019 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:30:00]
STEPHEN GRIFFIN, PROFESSOR OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, TULANE UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: And I assume they'll be perfectly happy to call those in the Senate. And I think Republicans have to think about that if they want to get into calling witnesses.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Again, that's looking ahead to the trial in the Senate. What about now with these articles in House Judiciary? Stephen, what's the strongest article of impeachment Democrats should really focus on?
GRIFFIN: Well, I think that the testimony of the three Democratic experts was particularly powerful on the idea of abuse of power. But I think it hasn't been sufficiently appreciated that this poses a real challenge for Democrats, a historical challenge and a practical challenge.
The historical challenge, past impeachments really have been assembled around the spine, so to speak, of the criminal law. Assembling an abuse of power challenge, as Professor Turley, the Republican witness, indicated could pose challenges in terms of what are exactly the criteria for abuse of power?
And House Republicans on that committee pointed out that if we're going to talk about abuse of power in a loose sense, that's not connected with the criminal law, we're going to have to perhaps talk about how past presidents, including perhaps President Obama, have abused their power.
So real challenges for Democrats as they draft articles of impeachment.
BALDWIN: All right. That's the articles.
What about the members themselves, the votes, Melanie? Earlier, on CNN, House majority whip, Jim Clyburn, expects Democrats to have a few defectors, people who will vote against impeaching the colleagues. They said they're not pushing colleagues but have to know most are onboard or Pelosi wouldn't be going forward, correct?
MELANIE ZANONA, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, "POLITICO": Absolutely right. Pelosi would not go forward with this or put articles on the floor if she thought it would fail. She has her finger on the pulse of the caucus and has to know exactly when to pull the trigger, whether moving forward with the inquiry and, as yesterday, she said we're going to move ahead with articles of impeachment.
That said, there's a challenge for Democratic leaders here because they said they won't whip this. A vote of conscience. They don't want to force members. But they want to limit this as much as possible.
Republicans will seize on that, saying a bipartisan vote against impeachment. No Republicans voting. So they need to craft the articles so that all of their members are comfortable with.
BALDWIN: Melanie, thank you.
Stephen Griffin, nice to have you on.
Let's move on. Coming up, facing off with the president and reporters who questioned her motives. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is in the midst of one of the biggest moments of her storied career. We'll talk to her daughter, Christine, next.
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[14:37:18]
BALDWIN: Nancy Pelosi's big moment is really a year in the making. And it can be told through pictures. Consider this. One year ago, Nancy Pelosi's power was challenged. Already the first woman speaker, her second speakership questioned by rebels inside her own party. Democrats looking for new blood. It is a battle she won. And she's taken on more battles since.
One, inside the Oval Office, in a very public and very infamous standoff over a shutdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I also know that, you know, Nancy's in a situation where it's not easy for her to talk right now, and I understand that. And I fully understand that. We're going to have a good discussion and we're going to see what happens.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Mr. President --
TRUMP: We have to have border security.
NANCY PELOSI: Mr. President, please don't characterize the strength that I bring to this meeting as a leader of the House Democrats who just won a big victory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Shortly after that, remember this? There she goes. The clap that went viral.
And then months later, another showdown on the president's turf. In a tense meeting there on Syria, the president releases this picture of the speaker standing up, pointing a finger at him and thought it would prove she had a, quote, "unhinged meltdown." But instead embraced it, taking that photo and proudly made it the header on her own Twitter page.
During the majority of this year, including the Mueller report, she didn't push impeachment. Went against wishes of many inside her own party. But as she argues, the president left her no choice this time.
After revealing impeachment charges are coming, when asked if she "hated" this president, this moment.
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PELOSI: As a Catholic, I resent your using the word "hate" in a sentence that addresses me. I don't hate anyone. I was raised in a way that is a heart full of love. And always prayed for the president, and I still pray for the president. I pray for the president all the time. So don't mess with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: The president's response that she's "had a nervous fit" is just another example in the pattern of how he attacks a woman. And not just any woman but the first female speaker of the House on her emotions, on her mental state and not on substance.
So will she win this battle? Perhaps the biggest of her career? It's too soon to say. But it is something, like most things with Nancy Pelosi, she wants to decide on her own terms.
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JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: If a Democrat wins in 2020, would you feel free to go home because Obamacare would be protected or -- or not?
NANCY PELOSI: Well, I'll see. I'm not on a timetable. I'm on a mission.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
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[14:40:03]
BALDWIN: With me now, Nancy Pelosi's daughter, Christine, the chair of the California Democratic Party Women's Caucus. And she just wrote a book on her mother entitled "The Nancy Pelosi Way."
Christine, welcome.
CHRISTINE PELOSI, DAUGHTER OF NANCY PELOSI: Thank you so much.
BALDWIN: So this is a historic moment for this country, certainly for your mother. Your tweet with the #don'tmesswithmama has been trending.
You know this woman better than anyone. Is this classic Nancy Pelosi? Is this the mom you've always known?
PELOSI: Absolutely. Nancy and Paul Pelosi had five kids within six years and raised us from diapers to degrees. My mom incredibly hands- on as class mom chaperone, made sure our Catholic uniforms were pressed every day, we had lunch and bus fare and out the door every day.
She was extremely focused on us, well before she entered elected politics. One thing she always said when we were growing up was know your own self. Be your own authentic self and that's what she is now telling women, key claim yourself. Don't be defined by mischaracterizations of you. Define yourself.
BALDWIN: Yes. In the last 24 hours, she made quite a headline in responding to that reporter's question yesterday on, do you hate the president? Walking back up to that podium and I wonder, have you talked to her since that moment?
PELOSI: Oh, yes, I have.
BALDWIN: What did she say?
PELOSI: Well -- I can say this. She -- the funny thing is, one thing that Nancy Pelosi always is says and I put this in the book, criticism and effectiveness go hand in hand. They wouldn't criticize you if you're not effective. They would ignore you.
One thing always surprising to her is how her clear statements of conscience and fact become these needs. This pin I'm wearing, cover of the book, putting on the sunglasses after the "don't characterize my strength" meeting.
Mom, yesterday, you had another big moment.
She was really, really clear that for weeks she's been saying, this is a somber time. It's a prayerful time. I know my mom always goes to church, prays all the time for people, for the president, for the country. She always does that.
So there was something about her when she said, you know, here we've gone through and talked about how important a moment this is for the country. A somber time, and they want to mischaracterize it down to a woman's emotions and I'm not going to let them do that.
BALDWIN: On that, on that point, you know, the fact that the president took what she did and what she said yesterday and said she was having a nervous fit. He's called her a nasty woman. Referred to a meltdown. You know, doubts that in fact she is praying for him. What would you say to the president? PELOSI: I'd say, Mr. President, don't mess with Nancy. Understand
she is a prayerful, strong woman. And if you might be feeling nervous or a meltdown or insecure, you don't need to do a self-diagnosis and project that on to somebody else.
Maybe it's time to come forward with that exculpatory information she told you to bring before and continues to invite you to bring so we can go about the business of having free and fair elections in this country and a good end to the current budget negotiations.
Also I would say this -- never, ever underestimate the moral strength and personal character and integrity of Nancy Pelosi.
BALDWIN: Dana Milbank, opinion columnist for the "Washington Post" wrote about her today. I wanted to read it. He said, "I once doubted Nancy Pelosi, about to turn 80, was the right leader for Democrats against Trump. She was made for this moment. She uniquely gets under Trump's skin, routinely beating him in standoffs with a blend of sorry and bewilderment."
What do you think makes your mother "made for this moment"?
PELOSI: I think part of it is that Nancy Pelosi has always known her "why." The one in five children who lived in poverty in America, support for health care for all as a human right.
And from the minute she entered politics, it was nasty. Terrible. You know, the brutal attacks that would take. Can't take my children from me so can't hurt me. Now working with a coalition for years with parents who children are very, very sick. Sadly, with parents who children have been murdered by gun violence.
Once you get to a place where you're working in that kind of coalition with the Democratic Party and with those communities, you really can't say, well, the president was mean to me today, or Republicans made a mean ad about me today. I just don't feel like coming to work. You have to be even stronger knowing your purpose and trying to use your power to make progress for other people.
Her ability to listen to people, lift other leaders up, and keep the families in great pain in her heart along with her prayers for the country and the president is what makes her uniquely suited to lead us through this very challenging time.
[14:45:14]
BALDWIN: Christine, you mentioned gun violence. Just want to stop, because yesterday when she was speaking at that news conference she touched her bracelet. I don't think a lot of people realize. Here it is. She actually wears this bracelet with an actual bullet on her wrist. Can you tell me why?
PELOSI: She wears that bullet in honor of everybody who's been killed by gun violence and every person who has picked up the mantle of gun violence reform. Congressman Frederica Wilson, of Florida, gave her the bracelet. She wears it quite often. We, on team Pelosi, wear this rainbow cuff. We started wearing them
in 2016 in honor of the nightclub members killed and will keep wearing these until the fight for equality and the fight for gun violence reform is won.
So it is a constant reminder of the pain that people are in, and of the awesome power and responsibility of the speakership to try to make change and that she constantly says to Mitch McConnell, to the NRA, to President Trump, we're not going away.
BALDWIN: Christine Pelosi, thank you for your time.
PELOSI: Thank you so much. And my condolences to the people today with the shooting.
BALDWIN: In Pensacola. Thank you. Thank you for that.
Still ahead here, it is the question we just have to keep asking. What in the world is Rudy Giuliani doing? He's still hunting conspiracy theories in Ukraine despite a federal investigation. What we're learning about his brazen adventure, next.
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[14:51:44]
BALDWIN: Just in. The president asking the Supreme Court to block House subpoenas asking banks for his financial records. Now the third case concerning the president's personal records to go to justices. Today's request involves Deutsche Bank and Capital One.
There are now even more pictures of Rudy Giuliani in Ukraine. More online postings show the president's personal attorney with more Ukrainian officials in Kyiv. Adding to the case Rudy Giuliani is doing exactly the maneuvers that led to this impeachment inquiry of his most famous client.
Posted Thursday, shows Giuliani with a former junior Ukrainian diplomat who has pushed the debunked theory that Russia -- excuse me. I can't help but say the right thing. The conspiracy theory it was Ukraine not Russia that interfered in the 2016 elections.
CNN national security analyst, Steve Hall, used to serve CIA chief of Russia and Ukraine operations.
Steve, nice to have you back.
What we know. Giuliani told Dana Bash here at CNN he is no longer in Ukraine. Is there anything illegal about what he's been up to this week?
STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Difficult to say whether anything is illegal. From a counterintelligence perspective, lots of bad things going on.
Telephone use, apparently calling all sorts of people, perhaps to include the president himself, on an open line on his open cell phone virtually guarantees almost 100 percent the Russians collected that information which is bad on a number of different levels.
Of course, the fact he continues to help the Republican side stoke the fires of this false conspiracy that somehow, for some reason, I cannot frankly imagine that Ukraine is where we need to be looking in terms of the 2016 election attack on this country. You know, that's perhaps not illegal, but certainly irresponsible.
BALDWIN: Again, this is a man currently under federal investigation. His client's facing impeachment. What is going through his head, do you think?
HALL: I think Rudy Giuliani -- what I would say if I were analyzing the United States as a foreign analyst, as I did for many years at CIA. My read of the situation is that Rudy Giuliani has, of course, bought in on the Republican side of things and dedicated to the plot or the plan, rather, of trying to throw up as much dust in the air to distract from what we already know to be the fact from U.S. intelligence agencies.
That is, that the Russians were behind the 2016 attack on our elections, that Donald Trump is disconcertingly close to Vladimir Putin and the Russians, and seems to be pasting close allies and fighters in fighting Russian aggression abroad. The Ukrainians thrown to the wind.
He's involved in that effort and will continue to do so as long as the president wants him to.
BALDWIN: Right. You point out, as the "Washington Post" reports, those unsecured phone lines where you say it is near certainly that Russia was listening.
Steve Hall, thank you very much. Of course, your expertise.
How about this? A crucial deadline approaching. It's approaching mighty quickly. The White House has just hours to decide whether or not they will participate in the House impeachment inquiry.
[14:54:58]
Plus, breaking news today. A member of the Saudi military is the one who killed three people at a U.S. naval base in Pensacola, Florida. What we're learning about the shooter, next.
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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BALDWIN: Welcome back. You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
[15:00:00]
We continue to follow this breaking news out of Pensacola, Florida, on this deadly shooting at the U.S. Naval air station there. A Saudi military member who was training at this facility was the one who shot three people to death.
