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Nat Sec Adviser: Shooting "Appears To Be A Terrorist Attack"; Defense Secretary: One To Two Saudi Friends Of Gunman Filmed Pensacola Attack; House Judiciary Prepares For Tomorrow's Hearing; Nadler: A Jury Would Produce A Guilty Verdict In Three Minutes Flat; Hearing Will Focus On Ukraine, But Mueller Report To Be Discussed; Sesame Street Puppeteer Behind Big Bird And Oscar The Grouch Dies At 85. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired December 08, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:26]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

We begin this hour with breaking news and several major developments today in the deadly shooting at the naval air base in Pensacola, Florida. First, FBI investigators have not called this incident an act of terrorism, but White House national security adviser Robert O'Brien had this to say this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMB. ROBERT O'BRIEN, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Look, to me it appears to be a terrorist attack. The FBI will have to get into the -- I don't want to prejudge the investigation, but it appears this may be someone that was radicalized whether it was here or -- you know, it's unclear if he's got any ties to any other organizations. But the Saudis have promised full cooperation with the investigation. We're going to take them at their word.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And we're now learning from the defense secretary, Mark Esper, saying one or two Saudi nationals who were friends of the gunman filmed the attack, but it isn't clear if the actions are being considered nefarious.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS HOST: There are reports that several Saudis have been detained and that several of them had been filming the incident. First of all, is that true? And there are some top Florida officials willing to say this was a terrorist plot.

MARK ESPER, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Yes. So some were detained, friends of his that were also on that base, as I understand it. And I also was told that some one or two were filming it. What's unclear is were they filming it before it began, or was it something where they picked up their phones and filmed it once they saw it unfolding? That may be a distinction with or without a difference, but, again, that's why I think we need to let the investigation play itself out.

WALLACE: But I mean that would not be a normal response to film one of your colleagues who's shooting Americans.

ESPER: I don't know. I'm not trying to pass a judgment on this at this point in time. You know, today people pull out their phones and film anything and anything that happens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The FBI did confirm the gun used in the attack, a Glock nine-millimeter handgun was purchased legally purchased in Florida by the shooter. Brynn Gingras is in Pensacola.

So, Brynn, what's the next step in the investigation because already there sure are a lot of mixed messages?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and it's really unclear at this point why there are so many mixed messages. Now, Fred, before I get to the investigation, I really want to point out something that happened here just moments ago before we came to you.

And that was this really somber procession that just happened on the street here that's leading right to the naval air station. People lined up on the street with flags, saluting huge procession, including the sheriff of deputy's cars. The three men who were killed in this attack and their bodies in three separate hearses going into the naval air station.

We're -- our understanding is there some sort of ceremony that is going to be taking place and that those men's bodies will be returned to their families. Just an emotional moment that we just witnessed here. And I can tell you, I was talking to someone who said it hasn't rained in Pensacola in quite a while and today it is raining. So that just sets the tone of where we are right now with the emotion that's coming out of this city.

As far as the investigation, I want to tell you that we actually asked about the defense secretary's comments that he made earlier about those videos. We asked that directly to officials on the ground, and we did get just a response moments ago. Essentially a spokesperson from the FBI saying that they can confirm a bystander was taking video before the attack happened and even after first responders came -- I'm sorry, after the attack started and even as first responders came to the scene. They have talked to that person.

That person is cooperating and that is all part of the investigation. They said they are also collecting video evidence from the scene which includes surveillance cameras on the base as part of that investigation. So, that was the answer we got in response to the defense secretary's comments. Now, overall, this investigation, we did get a briefing from officials here on the ground. They say the main goal right now is to find out, did this gunman act alone, in the sense was he a lone wolf or was he part of a larger network? And they're trying to get to that point of motive, right? Was there some sort of ideology that influenced him to carry out this attack?

And they don't have that answer just yet. And that's why we're understanding they're not calling this a terrorist attack because they don't have that motive. But they said they're certainly conducting this investigation with the presumption of an act of terrorism which allows them to really open up some more investigative tools.

Part of this investigation, where it stands right now in addition to continuing to analyze that video evidence, they're also talking to people, including those Saudi nationals that we have been reporting who were taken in for questioning. Our understanding is they're being cooperative, they're answering officials' questions, and they're being restricted to stay on the base while this investigation continues.

[15:05:07]

Not detained as sort of that's been going around as well. So, again, this is where the investigation stands right now. So many questions right now leading to this gunman. What were his motivations? Where was he? What sort of factors played into the decision to carry out such an attack that happened on Friday morning? Fred.

WHITFIELD: And so, Brynn, can I ask you again about what you're talking about, you know, officials telling you about the individual that may have filmed something, calling that person a bystander after the fact versus, we heard from the defense secretary who said one or two Saudis, you know, friends. So there's a big difference between those descriptions.

GINGRAS: Yes, there is -- there's a huge difference. And I can tell you that when we had this news conference and asked these questions to the FBI, they're pretty tight-lipped on exactly what they're learning from these Saudi nationals, these friends.

And that's why I think it is interesting that they said bystander in that official word. But it's very possible that the video that -- there's multiple videos, you know. These are things they're, again, looking at. I think that's why in their official response they also mentioned the surveillance video that's there on the base.

So, again, they won't necessarily clarify what the defense secretary said, but they did want to make it clear that these Saudi nationals, these friends of his, these classmates/associates, they're helping out with the investigation. That was definitely made apparent in this news conference earlier today.

WHITFIELD: All right, Brynn Gingras, thank you so much from Pensacola, appreciate it.

All right, I want to bring in now Nic Robertson who is in Saudi Arabia and a CNN national security analyst, Peter Bergen is in Washington. Good to see you both.

So, Nic, you first, investigators looking into the time the gunman, you know, spent in Saudi Arabia before coming back to the U.S. Now this is presumably, he started training in the U.S., went back to Saudi Arabia and then back to the U.S. and now looking at the timeline, what are they learning about the sequence of events?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, of course, it's not uncommon for cadets, trainees who are on a three-year course within the United States coming from Saudi Arabia to come and go between the two countries. That would be quite normal during vacation periods.

But what we understand here is -- and the king has been very clear about this, that the Saudi Security Services should cooperate fully with U.S. investigators. We know that there are FBI officials permanently based in Saudi Arabia.

So the key questions are going to be when he was back in Saudi Arabia, where did he go? Who did he meet? What did he do? Where did he pray? What do his family have to say about this? Now, we've reached out in the early stages of this investigation, and we had comment from his family.

They subsequently decided not to comment at the moment on the ongoing situation, which gives the impression, and I say impression because we don't know for sure, but all the likelihood would be that Saudi investigators assisting U.S. officials would be going to the family to get those very simple questions answered. Did he stay at home? Did he -- was he doing anything different? What were the conversations you had? What was he doing? Who were the friends he was seeing?

All those sorts of details you would expect officials here to be trying to put that very specific timeline on so they can understand precisely what he was doing. And that key question that we did ask the family 24 hours ago, did you recognize any change in him over the period of his training, and they said that they hadn't. Obviously investigators likely to double down on that point as well, Fred.

WHITFIELD: And so, Peter, you know, how much stock do you put into the kind of information Saudi Arabia might want to divulge about this officer, you know, in the Saudi air force who was now in the midst of training here in the U.S. and for this to now unfold?

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, the natural reaction of Saudi authorities to anything like this is to move very slowly and often to be pretty opaque. I mean we only have to look at the Jamal Khashoggi investigation who was working for the "Washington Post" and murdered in the Saudi constable of Istanbul.

That investigation, I mean, really still isn't complete. They've got 11 people who are supposedly on trial in Saudi Arabia, not really clear exactly who they are. So, obviously that was hugely embarrassing to the Saudis, and they were -- they kind of have dragged their feet to put it mildly. Now, in this case, you know, as Nic is reporting, clearly there is sort of an impetus to get this kind of, you know, move the investigation forward. But I -- as Nic knows as well, because he spent a lot of time in Riyadh and Saudi Arabia, as I have, you know, this is not a kind of culture that prices openness or transparency particularly when things could be embarrassing for them. So I would suspect that this will go on for quite some period of time.

[15:10:03]

WHITFIELD: And so, Nic, do you think Saudi Arabia is anticipating any changes in this cooperation, this type of training program that has been afforded to Saudi nationals?

ROBERTSON: I think that they can be expected to provide more scrutiny in country. I -- when the, you know, when they connects when there are students, the trainees are in the United States, I think there's going to be a bigger owners on Saudi Arabia going forward, whether this is something that sort of written down and structured or the Saudis take on themselves.

They value the relationship with the United States. They value the weapons. They value the partnership in the region. They value the fact that the United States adds to their security posture in the region. They're not going to want to damage that, at least not without having something ready off the shelf to replace it with.

So they're going -- you would expect them, therefore, to want to measure up to whatever the United States asked them to do. And part of that might be being proactive to monitor more carefully their students who are in the United States. However, as Peter knows, he spent a long time in Saudi Arabia as well over the years, we've both come to recognize that sometimes those practices, you know, they'll be put into place for six months or so, but they may not be followed up on.

They may not be the sort of due diligence down the line that one would anticipate. And that, there may be, you know, some of the ideas while good and put forward may not always be followed through. There will be pressure probably from the leadership to do a better job in the future, but how well that's maintained, not clear.

WHITFIELD: All right. We'll leave it there for now. Nic Robertson, Peter Bergen, thanks to both of you. I appreciate it.

BERGEN: OK.

WHITFIELD: All right. Still ahead, state side down, House Judiciary Chairman, Jerry Nadler, not mincing words when it comes to impeachment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERRY NADLER, (D) CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I think the case we have, if presented to a jury would be a guilty verdict in about three minutes flat. (END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The case Democrats are building and how Republicans are responding.

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[15:15:56]

WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back.

On the eve of another critical impeachment hearing, Democrats are back on Capitol Hill and sources tell CNN the Judiciary Committee could vote to impeach President Trump as soon as this week. Today, committee members are holding a mock hearing behind closed doors in the same room where tomorrow's session will take place.

CNN's Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill for us. So, Lauren, what more are you learning about these mock hearings underway?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, obviously, this speaks to just how much preparation is going into the next week, Fredricka. This big hearing tomorrow where we expect that the Judiciary Council as well as the House Intelligence Council will present what they believe is the evidence to impeach President Donald Trump. Of course, Republicans will refute that tomorrow, but here is Jerry Nadler, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, laying out just how much evidence he believes there is against President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NADLER: We have a very rock solid case. I think the case we have, if presented to a jury would be a guilty verdict in about three minutes flat. And, you know, all of this nonsense about the hearsay evidence, there is considerable direct evidence and it behooves a president or his partisans to say you don't have enough direct evidence when the reason we don't have even more direct evidence is the President has ordered everybody in the executive branch not to cooperate with Congress in the impeachment inquiry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: Now, Republicans saying that they're very comfortable defending the President tomorrow, basically arguing that they think Democrats have rushed through this process. Here is a close ally of President Trump, Representative Mark Meadows.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK MEADOWS, (R) JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: He talked about investigations. If you look at the transcript, the -- I think he said, will you do us a favor based on the United States going through a lot, talking about 2016 elections. And when you see that, Dana, I think probably the biggest thing is this President has gone through so much. They've been making accusations about this President that not only are not based on facts but they're false. And so in doing that and getting to the bottom of it is key.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And of course, after a two-month investigation by the House Intelligence Committee, we could see a markup of vote in the House Judiciary Committee on the articles of impeachment at the end of this week. That giving you a sense of just how rapidly this is moving forward. There could be a vote on the full floor of the House of Representatives before Christmas to impeach President Donald Trump. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: All right. Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill, thank you so much.

All right. Up next, she's been calling for President Trump's impeachment for quite a while now since inauguration. We'll ask Congresswoman Maxine Waters if the Mueller report should be incorporated in articles of impeachment. And, don't forget to join Anderson Cooper and Kelly Ripa live as they name the 2019 CNN Hero of the Year, CNN Heroes: An All-Star Tribute, tonight 8:00 p.m. right here on CNN.

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[15:23:01]

WHITFIELD: All right. As the Democrats gear up for a key impeachment hearing tomorrow in which they plan to lay out the facts for possible articles of impeachment against President Donald J. Trump, Democrats appear to split on whether to include articles of impeachment related to the Mueller report and obstruction of justice. Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler won't rule out including elements of the Russia report and plans to discuss the Mueller investigation at tomorrow's hearing. But Intel Chairman Adam Schiff seemed to indicate today that he wants to stick to the Ukraine investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADAM SCHIFF, (D) CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: I think we should focus on those issues that provide the greatest threat to the country, and the President has engaged in a course of conduct that threatens the integrity of the next election, threatens our national security by withholding military assistance to an ally at war to our detriment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. With me now is Congresswoman Maxine Waters. She is a Democratic representative from California and the chairwoman for the Financial Services Committee in the House. Great to see you, Congresswoman.

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA): Thank you. Good to be with you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thank you.

So we're just learning that there will be discussions about the Mueller report at tomorrow's hearing. Do you agree that the Russia report should be a part of any building of the articles of impeachment against the President?

WATERS: Well, I think that we should allow the process to go forward where we have the members, the chairs of all of the committees that are involved, the six committees and the leadership talking about how to get the best articles in a resolution for impeachment. That has not been finalized yet and I don't think it's either or. I think it is having the articles where you have the best facts, you have the most information and where you can point out how this President has been harmful and detrimental to our government, to our society.

WHITFIELD: At the same time, do you feel like you need the public on your side in order to do that?

[15:25:02]

It has to be rather streamlined or simplified albeit, you know, comprehensive but that's why some members of Congress feel like it should be streamlined to just Ukraine by reaching into the Mueller report might make it too complicated.

WATERS: Well, I think that we should have articles in that resolution that clearly define where this President has undermined the constitution. It may be something that comes out of Mueller, it may be something having to do with the fact that he identified in certain areas of that report obstruction of justice, it may be.

But of course, Ukraine and that telephone call to the president of Ukraine is what has really triggered the understanding that this president is dangerous, that he would go so far as to seek out information in an attempt to undermine his opposition from a foreign government.

And I think, of course, that's going to be absolutely focused on and whatever else there may be, I'm not sure at this point and that's still being discussed.

WHITFIELD: So as you mentioned, six House committees have ongoing investigations of the President. You chair the House Financial Services Committee --

WATERS: Yes.

WHITFIELD: -- looking into matters, you know, stemming from the Mueller report. Do you see this being incorporated, findings of these six committees to be incorporated into any building of articles of impeachment?

WATERS: We will all have some input on that. Everybody knows that I started seeking information from Deutsche Bank a long time ago. I've issued subpoenas. As you know, there have been some court decisions and of course, every time we get a court decision, and the latest one that we got where the District Court of Appeals basically said they must comply with the request with the subpoenas that they will basically challenge that and appeal that. And so it is working its way all the way up to the Supreme Court. We can't, you know, tell the courts, you know, how quickly to get this done but that information may not be ready, you know, for the impeachment inquiry that will go forth but we will continue to work on these issues. I believe that Deutsche Bank is a money laundering bank. They were the only ones that would lend money, you know, to the President when no other bank would. And so we have a lot of information we need to get from them but it may not be timely for the impeachment resolution.

WHITFIELD: So you mentioned for a long time including the Deutsche Bank, you know, you've been looking into the financial, you know, history of the President. But you've also been calling, you know, for impeachment of this president well before the completion of the Mueller report, before Ukraine investigation. In fact, your calls go back to inauguration.

So do you worry that the Republicans are winning the public debate that the Democrats, this is what Republicans are saying, that the Democrats have been trying to get rid of this president since the beginning and that it undermines this process underway right now?

WATERS: No, I don't think that's a good argument. They can come up with any argument they would like, but they won't deal with the facts. They talk about process. They talk about they haven't been included. They talk call it a witch hunt the same way the President does, but none of that deals with the facts of what this president has done.

This president has increasingly abused his power and has shown that he has no respect for anybody, not the members of Congress, not the constituents of ours, not the people of this country. And so if there is any impeachment that they should be concerned about, it is the fact that he has basically caused himself to be impeached in the way that he has conducted himself.

And don't forget, in this latest incident where our allies have basically made fun of him, have mocked him, have joked about him, this president is responsible for this impeachment the way that he's conducted himself, the way that he sought foreign assistance, interfering with our government and trying to undermine his opposition with the help of a foreign government. It's all about this president, his actions, what he's done and how he's abused his power.

WHITFIELD: And then quickly, I'd like to switch gears momentarily and talk about the race for the White House. You know among Democrats, it had been celebrated as one of the most diverse ever, you know, fields of candidates and now fellow Californian Kamala Harris is out. Now is, you know, just six candidates are qualified for the next debate this month, mostly white men so far, you know, two white women Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar, you know.

And this is before any primary vote has actually been made. So what's your assessment about what is happening? What's happening to that robust field of diversity and whether it is threatening to, you know, dissipate the diversity?

WATERS: Well, the Democratic National Committee signed off on the rules for the debates.

[15:30:00]

And they basically included everything from -- well, the two main things, polling and also the ability to raise funds. And so even those who take a look back and say, well, maybe there should have been different rules, the fact of the matter is everybody operated under the rules.

I certainly wish there was more diversity. I certainly wish that an African-American woman or women could have been part of a continuing debate. Unfortunately, the rules of what they are, and for those people who don't qualify, they won't be in the next debate. For those who think that perhaps they cannot catch up, that they have not been able to raise enough money in the way that Kamala has done, they will not be in the debates and we must move forward.

WHITFIELD: All right, Congresswoman Maxine Waters, always a pleasure having you. Thank you so much.

WALTERS: You're so welcome. Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right, still ahead, Elizabeth Warren versus Pete Buttigieg, the latest round of attacks and how it could impact the presidential race.

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[15:35:09]

WHITFIELD: All right, welcome back. Former Vice President Joe Biden taking the gloves off, sparring with voters and reporters on the campaign trial this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're selling access to the President just like he was.

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You're a damn liar, man. That's not true. And no one has ever said that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't say you were doing anything wrong. I said --

BIDEN: You said I set up my son to work in an oil company. Isn't that what you said? Get your words straight, Jack.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which is what Donald Trump says a lot, hey, you can't take a joke. I was joking.

BIDEN: No, no, no, no. Don't compare me to Donald Trump. Don't do that. What Donald Trump says, he makes fun of people. He belittles people. He lies. I don't do anything of those things, period.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WHITFIELD: All right, joining me now to discuss, Charlie Dent, a former Republican congressman and CNN political commentator, and Hilary Rosen, a Democratic strategist and CNN political commentator. Good to see you both.

HILARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, so Charlie, you first.

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Fred.

WHITFIELD: You know, Biden appears to be making an attempt to show, you know, he is fit, he is ready to spar. Is this advantageous for him, in your view?

DENT: Well, I thought fighting with that gentleman out in Iowa really was not very helpful for him. I think the guy -- he was obviously very clumsy and maybe wasn't going to be very kind to the vice president, but the question was about the vice president's son. And I think the vice president has to come up with a better answer than he did even --

WHITFIELD: Than him saying he didn't set him up?

DENT: Yes, but even Hunter Biden acknowledged in hindsight and retrospect it was wrong for him to be on that board where he was paid all that money. He seemed to have limited qualifications. So I thought the vice president was a bit too defensive and he needs a better answer than that. Never good to attack a voter like that.

WHITFIELD: Hilary, how did you see it?

ROSEN: You know, I think people looked at it like -- in the room I hear like a father protecting his son, that the sense was that, you know, this guy that had come for a fight and Biden was just not having any of it.

I actually think that people are more concerned that our Democratic candidate be able to go toe to toe with a really mean Donald Trump in the campaign, and I think Joe Biden has demonstrated that he is not going to, you know, he's not going to sit back and take it. And so, I don't think that hurts him. I think that probably in the end he just looks like a dad defending his son.

I don't think Charlie is wrong that he needs actually a better talking point around the Hunter issue, but I don't think that people begrudge him the passion around it.

WHITFIELD: All right, Biden isn't the only one sparring, but Senator Elizabeth Warren, Mayor Pete Buttigieg are also going at it against each other about her tax returns and about Buttigieg's refusal to allow the press, you know, to cover his fundraising events. Just take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN, (D-MA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He should release who is bundling for him. He should make clear who is on his finance team. This is about the conflicts that he is creating every single day right now.

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Look, I'm more interested in debating where our country is going. I'm happy to discuss each of our respected record on transparency, but the House is on fire. And this, above all, is a competition for the nominee to take on Donald Trump. And I will put my professional history, civilian and military, public and private, up against his any day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right, so Hilary, does this come with the territory in the fight for leadership?

ROSEN: Well, it does. I think that, you know, what's interesting, the Warren campaign must have some polling I haven't seen that essentially says that Buttigieg is taking votes away from her. I think most people are feeling like the bulk of the contest in Iowa and New Hampshire, actually, is more interchangeable votes between Warren and Sanders.

So, I think that it's kind of an odd strategy to take on Buttigieg for something so miniscule but, you know, she must have something behind it. I feel like the Warren campaign is flailing a little bit. I think this is a candidate, a senator, who has such good economic messaging, who speaks to voters so well.

I don't think that this is an effective strategy for her, is to just go about, you know, attacking others. I feel like she was doing better and would do better if she stays positive and excited about change in the country.

WHITFIELD: And then, Charlie, you know, Democrats are preparing to hold this key impeachment hearing tomorrow. Republicans, you know, are still pushing that debunked theory that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 election. And then listen to Texas Senator Ted Cruz on "Meet the Press" this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) TEXAS: Russia clearly interfered in our election, but here's the game the media is playing, because Russia interfered, he media pretends nobody else did. Ukraine blatantly interfered in our election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:40:05]

WHITFIELD: So, Charlie, what's going on here?

DENT: But, you know --

WHITFIELD: Yes, Charlie, explain Ted Cruz for us.

DENT: Yes, that would great. I can't explain it. I mean, after all the things that the President said about his wife and his father, I mean, why would he even attempt to try to defend the indefensible and then, you know, start peddling these conspiracy theories.

Look, we all know what happened here. Everybody knows. Yes, there were people in Ukraine during 2016 that were unhappy that Paul Manafort was involved with Donald Trump's campaign, because he was seen as a pro-Russian guy, you know, working for the Yanukovych government. That deeply offended many Ukrainians. They're upset about it and they expressed their anger. But that doesn't mean they interfered with the election.

And so, again, Ted Cruz -- I can't explain it. I mean you'd think a man like that would have more self-respect, you know, after all the things that the President said about him and his family, you'd think he'd be out there and trying to speak truth to power at a time like this.

WHITFIELD: All righty. It's crazy. It's crazy. Thank you for that punctuation.

ROSEN: The President own intelligence officials say this didn't happen.

WHITFIELD: OK. All righty, Hilary Rosen, Charlie dent, thank you so much.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:21]

WHITFIELD: All right, welcome back. As the Judiciary Committee prepares for tomorrow's hearing, questions are looming as to how an impeachment trial would proceed in the U.S. Senate. Senate Minority leader Chuck Schumer saying today he still hasn't heard from Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell about what that trial might look like.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D) MINORITY LEADER: Nope, he has not -- I have said to him I'm ready to discuss it, when you're ready, come to me, and he hasn't yet.

I hope that we can come to a bipartisan agreement, and I hope we can come to allowing a full and open trial. In other words, there are key witnesses that have not testified, there are key documents that haven't come forward. I think it's only fair to the American public and to everybody that these be allowed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: CNN Legal Analyst, Shan Wu joining me right now. Shan, good to see you. So the format of the U.S. Senate trial would largely depend on what charges the House brings. So what do you take away from Schumer's comments?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think that it indicates McConnell and the Republicans have some very large strategy questions to decide. For example, do they want to push for calling certain witnesses? They want to insist Biden testify or Pelosi or Schiff? Those are big strategic decisions because they have to pick what kind of fights they're going to have.

So, probably McConnell is trying to straighten that out rather than simply waiting for what appears now to be a formality for a decision of handing down articles of impeachment.

WHITFIELD: And it's about relevance too, right, I mean who would be on the witness list. I mean you heard Jerry Nadler say that earlier today where he talked about certain witnesses not being called because they didn't seem relevant.

WU: Right. That's exactly right. And the question of, you know, what evidence are they going to present, of course, depends on which articles that they're going to hand down. And certainly sounds like abuse of power is going to be one of the articles, possibly obstruction of Congress and even obstruction of justice which opens up interesting question of the Mueller issue.

But, certainly, that's part of the strategy that the Republicans have to think about, because from a political point of view, if you're going to try and call Hunter Biden that has pros and cons, equivocally.

WHITFIELD: OK. All right. So Judiciary Chair Nadler did seem to make it on the certain that abuse of power is among the articles. How do you envision this committee presenting articles, high crimes and misdemeanors?

WU: Well, it's interesting, Fred, because the report that we just saw from that committee goes to great pains to give the constitutional definitions of these impeachable offenses, and actually the abuse of power becomes a subset of the high crimes and misdemeanors. They identified three areas that are overlapping that would look at corruption, they look at betrayal of the U.S. interests, and they also look at whether the President has put his own interests above that of democracy.

So we're going to see the abuse of power being presented in a pattern of conduct, and we've heard a number of Democrats talk about that. So I think you will see, looking at the 2016 election where the President called for foreign interference as well as his more recent calls for it as well as Ukraine, I think that's all going to be presented as part of a pattern of misconduct.

WHITFIELD: And then really quick, how do you see the impeachments of President Clinton or Nixon, you know, being used as real framework, blueprints for this impeachment? WU: You know, that report that was just released references both Nixon and Clinton as precedent and they're trying to build on those reports is going to be an important historical document as well that they've come out with this report. Primarily, they're using it ahead of time to knock down Republican defenses. So Nixon also tried to claim famously, if the president does it, it's not illegal. And they certainly knocked that down, just as Trump has said that, you know, he can do things he wants to do because he's president. They also -- so that's the executive power aspect.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

WU: They also attack the argument that it must be a crime in order to be impeachable, and they say that's not true at all. It does not have to be a crime and you don't have to make those kinds of rigorous criminal elements in this case.

WHITFIELD: All right, another big week on Capitol Hill. Thank you so much, Shan Wu, appreciate it, from Washington.

WU: Good to see you, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. We'll be right back after this.

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[15:53:15]

WHITFIELD: All right, sad news today. So many of us grew up with Sesame Street's Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch. Well, the voice behind those characters, Caroll Spinney, a legendary puppeteer, died today at the age of 85. He taught generations of children about kindness without ever seeing his face. CNN's Richard Roth takes a look back at Spinney's life on "Sesame Street."

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RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): People never recognized Caroll Spinney.

CAROLL SPINNEY, SESAME STREET PUPPETEER: Nobody knows me.

ROTH: But they will never forget his legendary TV characters seen around the world.

GUY SMILEY: Caroll Spinney is Big Bird on educational and entertaining children's television show, "Sesame Street."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, Big Bird.

BIG BIRD: Hi, Gordon (ph).

ROTH: He was also Oscar the Grouch.

SPINNEY: I love playing Oscar. He has a power I never had.

OSCAR THE GROUGH: Oh, I love trash.

SPINNEY: He is totally different than Big Bird.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is it that makes you so grouchy __?

OSCAR THE GROUGH: People, sunny days.

ROTH: Spinney says he grew up with an abusive father, but a mother who encouraged his puppetry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you get that job?

SPINNEY: Jim Henson saw me performing at a puppet festival.

ROTH: In a retirement video produced by the Sesame Workshop, he told us how he got to "Sesame Street."

SPINNEY: He said, I'm going to build a large bird. I'm just wondering if you might be interested in playing it. To me it's very much like some fellow came up to me and I was a drummer and said, that little band from little __, would you like to be new drummer then?

BIG BIRD: Hi, Sally. Sally, where's Sally.

SPINNEY: He was a bit of a country pumpkin to begin with, but then a few shows on I said, you know, I think there's should be a child learning along with the children. The producers were all with me.

BIG BIRD: Eight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine.

[15:55:00]

BIG BIRD: What's next?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ten.

BIG BIRD: Oh, of course.

ROTH: Spinney appeared in thousands of "Sesame Street" episodes across nearly 50 years hanging up his feathers in 2018.

SPINNEY: I started with puppets when I was 8 and I kind of -- for years felt that I should be hidden.

BIG BIRD: My name is Bird, Big Bird.

ROTH: He needed to stay hidden to make Big Bird eight feet tall.

SPINNEY: I held my arm over my head for quite a while. I could paint ceilings for hours like that.

ROTH: First ladies of the United States loved the Big Bird. But one presidential candidate was less enthused.

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): I'm going to stop the subsidy to PBS. I'm going to stop all the things I like PBS. I love Big Bird.

BARACH OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Somebody's finally cracking down on Big Bird.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you find out that your name had been mentioned in the debate?

BIG BIRD: I got a million tweets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes.

BIG BIRD: I love to move to the music, love to tap out a beat

ROTH: It wasn't all song and games, "Sesame Street" confronted troubling social issues such as bullying.

BIG BIRD: Oh, that's too bad.

SHELLY THE TURTLE: Yes, so long, big foot.

BIG BIRD: That's Big Bird. It wasn't very nice. It made me feel bad. I just want to be part of the club.

ROTH: Spinney could be lonely inside Big Bird, but he guided millions of youngsters through childhood.

SPINNEY: It won't (ph) probably be a little bit better place than if Big Bird hadn't been there and had his suffering and his joy and I think that that's what I'd like to leave, called (ph) my legacy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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