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Rep. Peter Welch (D-VT) is Interviewed about Impeachment; Trump talks about FBI; Trump and His Generals. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 11, 2019 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

REP. PETER WELCH (D-VT): From the White House that would exonerate or compromise President Trump. Why -- and when the motion is made to get documents from Mike Pompeo or from the Office of Management and Budget, will Republicans deny -- will they vote no to get that evidence?

So more information may be -- may come out in -- it's not a foregone conclusion what's going to happen in the Senate if we're able to get more information.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Let me ask you on another topic, if I can, because the drug price bill is something that's been very close to your heart for some time.

Tomorrow the House, of course, is going to vote on this. And you introduced it. You have that. You have the USMCA deal agreement between Democrat -- democratically controlled House and the president yesterday.

What does that show here? Does that show that in the midst of impeachment, that -- that Democrats and Republicans can still work together?

WELCH: You know, it really does. It shows that, first of all, our job here is to legislate. And impeachment dominates the news and we can't do much about it. But the everyday challenges people are facing with -- out of -- incredibly high health care costs, particularly pharmaceuticals, with wage stagnation, with the need to have a modern trade agreement that has labored environmental protections, all of these things we've been focusing on and we're going to see in these last two weeks of the session that we're actually going to get them across the finish line.

The other point is, yes, we have come to this conclusion that the president must be impeached. But that's really -- that's hard -- that's a -- it's kind of heartbreaking to make that, but our job is to legislate even when that legislation may be a political victory for President Trump. If it's a victory for the American people, that's good for all of us.

SCIUTTO: I notice, and I'm sure you did as well, that the president claimed a personal victory for -- for the U.S. trade deal. Do you -- not saying, hey, you know, Democrats, Republicans, we joined hands on this. Do you expect any sharing of the credit on a drug price bill if -- if it proceeds?

WELCH: You know, defeat is an orphan and credit has a thousand fathers. And anybody who put a finger on helping us get this across the finish line is going to claim credit. And as far as I'm concerned, give him credit. If we get something done that's good for all of us, we've got all of us an opportunity to celebrate.

SCIUTTO: Magnanimous of you. Not always so common on Capitol Hill.

Congressman Peter Welch, thanks very much for joining us this morning.

WELCH: Thanks, Jim. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, soon on Capitol Hill, the Justice Department's inspector general expected to be grilled by Republicans after finding no political bias in the FBI's origins of the Russia investigation. Of course, the president didn't seem to read that part of the report. We'll continue to follow those hearings.

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[09:37:39]

SCIUTTO: Just moments ago, the Justice Department's inspector general, Michael Horowitz, arriving on Capitol Hill. You see those pictures there. He's going to face the Senate Judiciary Committee. This following his report on the origins of the Russia investigation. We should note this, his report found definitively there was no political bias by the FBI when it opened its investigation into Russian election meddling and any involvement, possible involvement, by the Trump campaign in 2016. Despite that, that has not stopped the president from continuing to lie. And it's clear he's lying here about what the report said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The inspector general's shocking report proved that the Obama FBI obtained secret warrants to spy on my campaign based on a phony foreign dossier of debunked smears paid for by crooked Hillary Clinton and the DNC.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Fact-checking this. This is what is in the IG report. Quote, the FBI had an authorized purpose when it opened Crossfire Hurricane to obtain information about or protect against a national security threat or a federal crime.

All right, let's cue the president again. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Folks, they spied on our campaign, OK? They spied. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: OK. Let me read you two things from the IG report. One, we found no evidence that the FBI placed any CHSs or UCEs -- CHS is confidential human source -- within the Trump campaign or tasked any CHSs or UCEs to report on the campaign.

It also says, and I quote, we did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced the decisions to open the four individual investigations.

SCIUTTO: Those are direct quotes from the report.

We should note, that inspector generals, in -- whether it's in the FBI, the DOJ or the intelligence community are chosen specifically to be unbiased investigators of questions like this.

The president, not just attacking the IG's report, he's also still taking on the FBI chief, who we should remind you, the president appointed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You have great people in the FBI, but not in leadership. You have not good people in leadership.

And the FBI also sent multiple undercover human spies to surveil and record people associated with our campaign.

[09:40:03]

Look how they've hurt people. They've destroyed the lives of people that were great people, that are still great people. Their lives have been destroyed by scum.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Wow. Calling members of the FBI scum.

Joining us now to discuss, Josh Campbell, former FBI special agent, Chris Swecker, former FBI assistant director for the criminal investigative division. Appreciate you both being here very much.

Josh, let me just begin with you.

As someone who has served in the agency, a, your response to the president using that term scum, and then, b, the way that he's sort of selectively choosing parts of the Horowitz report that he said -- that he doesn't like and then parts he does, because last night at the rally he also talked about the 17 errors in the FISA application and, you know, was supportive of that finding in the report and not of the others.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the president's caustic language isn't going to sit well with FBI agents and their families, obviously. These are people that go to work every single day, you know, protecting the nation.

That said, this is a pattern that we've seen with the president, and that is this ongoing political campaign of attack against the FBI to try to undermine their credibility. We've been reporting on this since the origins of the Russia investigation that continues to this day. So it's not surprising, obviously, the language is troubling, but that's been the pattern.

To the second part about the IG report, I think it's important for viewers to understand, this is what the IG concluded. And you have to understand that two things can be true at the same time.

HARLOW: Right.

CAMPBELL: On one hand, there was wrongdoing by the FBI as it related to these FISA surveillance warrants. It found some 17 instances by midlevel employees. It also found -- and this was the big takeaway, that there was no political bias on the part of the FBI in investigating members -- or surrounding Donald Trump. And that is important to note because that's been the theme from the president that President Obama somehow weaponized the FBI, this independent agency, in order to take down Donald Trump. The inspector general, an independent body, found that that is not the case and anything to the contrary, anything said that's contrary to that is simply political spin.

SCIUTTO: Chris Swecker, I just want to read that line again from the DOJ report. We did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced the decisions to open the four individual investigations. As you know, the president, for months, and some of his allies have repeated a charge of political bias and, of course, the president did again last night. What is confusing about that statement, that conclusion there of the IG?

CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE DIVISION: Well, first of all, it's not the last word. We know that because there's another criminal inquiry going on right now. But I'm not going to get wrapped around the axel on this issue of bias. I'm going to focus in on the FBI itself.

The FBI is a great institution. I love it. I served it for 24 years. And -- but the fact is that they --- they committed some egregious actions here in this FISA application and it doesn't matter whether it was motivated by bias or any -- or any other reason, it was done. And if you were the target of that level of surveillance, a microphone in your house, for example, or listening in on your phone calls, your e- mails, intercepting your e-mails and your texts, I guarantee you wouldn't care whether it was out of bias or any other reason. To me the --

SCIUTTO: But the reason it's relevant, Chris, is because the president has alleged political bias for more than two years now in the FBI --

SWECKER: Right.

SCIUTTO: And attacked officials there. The IG, which, as you know, I mean IGs are designed to do non-partisan investigations internally. It says no political bias and yet he keeps saying.

I'm just curious, as a former senior official in the FBI, what your reaction is to that. Does that settle well with you?

SWECKER: Yes, I -- look, as I said, this is not the last word. And I'm not saying I want to see bias in the FBI or some finding that there was bias, but I -- you know, I -- I was at the highest levels. I talked to someone this morning who ran the counterintelligence division who said absolutely they would have done a defensive briefing of at least the president so that they could get -- counter the intelligence efforts that were going on here. That's what the FBI's mission is, is to counter intelligence, not to trap U.S. citizens or try to run -- what they did is they gave the Russians an opportunity to interfere in our election. And the belief on many people's part is because they did not like the president. And that's just not the role of the FBI. And that's -- that's my objection and the objection of many of my colleagues.

HARLOW: Josh Campbell --

CAMPBELL: And now --

HARLOW: Yes, go ahead --

CAMPBELL: Yes.

HARLOW: And then I want to ask you about something that Bill Barr said about the agency potentially acting in bad faith.

CAMPBELL: Yes, I --

HARLOW: I think if you want to address that, I think we can just listen to it for a moment.

CAMPBELL: Yes, please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The core statement, in my opinion, by the IG is that these irregularities, these misstatements, these omissions were not satisfactorily explained.

[09:45:04]

And I think that leaves open the possibility to infer bad faith. I think it's premature now to reach a judgment on that, but I think that further work has to be done, and that's what Durham is doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Bad faith, Josh?

CAMPBELL: Well, I think it's important to understand, first of all, what the inspector general is. Again, this is an independent body. We're going to hear from him at the top of the hour as he testifies before Congress publicly about his findings. And what is so unusual is that usually the inspector general findings

are highly respected across the political aisle. And for an attorney general to come out and say that he disagrees or the methodology was not, you know, proper or appropriate there or fulsome obviously raises eyebrows, particularly because this attorney general has so closely sidled himself up to the president of the United States, which has been unusual because historically you've seen this independence between a White House and a Justice Department. That is what is causing a lot of eyebrows to raise when it comes to the words that are uttered by Bill Barr as it relates to this investigation.

SCIUTTO: Josh Campbell, Chris Swecker, thanks to both of you.

CAMPBELL: Thanks.

SWECKER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Did President Trump press the Russian foreign minister on election meddling during their Oval Office meeting yesterday? It's only 11 months till the 2020 election. The answer to that question depends on who you ask. We're going to break it down, next, right after this.

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[09:51:05]

SCIUTTO: New this morning, according to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, Russian election meddling in U.S. elections came up in every meeting he was a part of when Russian foreign -- Russia's foreign minister visited Washington yesterday.

Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: There was no mistake that President Trump made clear in the meetings that he had with Foreign Minister Lavrov and the rest of the Russians team that was there, that President Trump personally, and America, finds their meddling in our elections unacceptable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: The president tweeted that he brought up election interference. But when Lavrov was asked about it, here's how he answered.

OK, well, he said that it was not brought up. He later clarified that he was the one who brought it up to Trump.

Joining me now to discuss, CNN national security analyst Peter Bergen. He is the author of a new book, "Trump and His Generals: The Cost of Chaos." It's an incredible inside view of the president's relationship with his generals and the souring of that relationship over time.

Peter Bergen, great to have you on this morning.

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: First on the Russia issue. Who do we believe, the White House or Russia here? I mean this is a president who has taken Putin's side on election meddling in the past.

BERGEN: Well, you -- you flash back to Helsinki and the meeting with Putin there and how the president basically presented Putin's point of view, which is that he didn't interfere and that he took his word for that. So, I mean, the Trump president doesn't have much credibility on this particular issue.

SCIUTTO: Let's talk about your book, but as it relates specifically to news in just the last few days. We have the shooting in Pensacola, Florida. It's now blamed -- it's now described as a terrorist attack. Someone who's part of this sort of educational program with visiting Saudi offices here.

In the book you get at this relationship because Trump's words after this -- it would have been very easy for him to say, I will not stand for this, we're going to reassess, but he -- he kind of took the Saudi's side here.

You say in your book, the Saudis understood the power of family relationships, an alliance between the House of Saud and the House of Trump made intuitive sense to them, particularly after their intense relationship with President Obama.

Have the Saudis played Trump here?

BERGEN: Well, they've certainly got a pretty good deal. I mean do the thought experiment where this Saudi officer was a Yemen officer on one of the travel ban list of companies.

SCIUTTO: Good point.

BERGEN: I mean President Trump would have had a very different reaction.

And, you know, he's given them a free ride in Yemen. The blockade of Qatar. The kidnapping of Oriri (ph), the prime minister of Lebanon, Jamal Khashoggi to a large degree. You know, the list goes on and on.

And, you know, you can make a defensive of it in the sense that Mohamed bin Salmon (ph) is reforming Saudi Arabia in some ways that are important. On the other hand, he's also an impetuous guy whose, you know, leading his country into a number of really big foreign policy problems that we have basically green lighted.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And seems to have directed the murder of a journalist, as you say, in Jamal Khashoggi.

Another point you make is, it's just a bigger picture about the president's relationship with his generals. But oftentimes the president not seeming to understand the national security issues before him.

I want to talk about North Korea. This in April of 2017 after a string of North Korean missile tests. You write the following, Trump was regularly briefed that North Korea possessed vast numbers of artillery batteries that could potentially kill millions in Seoul in the event of war. Referring to the inhabitants of Seoul, Trump said, they have to move. The officials in the Oval Office weren't sure if Trump was joking. Trump repeated, they have to move.

I mean, based on your interviews here, did the president believe that an entire city of millions of people could be moved in response to this?

BERGEN: Well, I mean, the officials didn't say anything because, you know, it's 10 million people on the low end is the estimate of the number of people who live in Seoul and 25 million on the high end if you take the whole metropolitan areas, which is, you know, the size of Australia. So I mean it's a kind of crazy idea. I mean to his supporters, President Trump is -- he thinks out of the box. To his detractors, his out of the box ideas are crazy.

SCIUTTO: Because that's pretty far out of the box, moving a major metropolitan city, and the capital.

BERGEN: Yes. I mean, in that case, yes, that was -- it didn't happen, obviously.

SCIUTTO: Do you -- can you explain, just briefly, what led to Trump's decline in this relationship?

[09:55:01]

Early on he talked about his general. He loved to have them. Mad Dog. He's a killer. Now it appears that because sometimes those generals challenged him, he didn't like having them around anymore.

BERGEN: I think it's that -- pretty much that simple. And it was partly, you know, the military is based on a kind of honor code. You know, so Trump is, you know, not a gentleman. I think that's a factor.

But, I mean, much more importantly it was about policy, attacking NATO routinely, supporting Putin come what may. You know, the Iran deal, which a lot of them sought to preserve because it was working and also it was a deal that we had done with our allies as well.

So, at the end, it became about policy.

SCIUTTO: Right. And those disagreements continue.

Peter Bergen, again, here is the book, "Trump and His Generals: The Cost of Chaos." Enormous insights and access in this book here. Definitely worth picking up.

Peter Bergen, thanks very much.

BERGEN: Thank you. HARLOW: Yes, congrats to Peter on that.

All right, to Capitol Hill we go.

Minutes from now, the Justice Department's inspector general will face lawmakers to testify about his findings on the origins of the Russia probe. You'll see it live right here. Don't go anywhere.

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