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House Panel Votes on Articles of Impeachment. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 13, 2019 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:26]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Quite a week. More to come. Just one hour from now, a historic moment on Capitol Hill that almost took place in the dead of the night. The House Judiciary Committee meeting to vote on two articles of impeachment against President Trump. This follows some 14 hours of debate and a dramatic showdown after the chairman of that committee, Jerry Nadler, postponed the vote Thursday night at the last minute. That move enraging Republicans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY): It has been a long two days of consideration of these articles and it is now very late at night. The committee will now stand in recess until tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. at which point I will move to divide the question so that each of us may have the opportunity to cast up or down votes on each of the articles of impeachment and to let history be our judge. The committee is in recess.

REP. DOUG COLLINS (R-GA): Mr. Chairman, you chose not to consult the ranking member on a schedule issue of this magnitude? This is the -- this is the kangaroo court that we're talking about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is outrageous.

(CROSSTALK)

REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R-TX): It's Stalinesque.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unbelievable.

COLLINS: Not even consult?

GOHMERT: Stalinesque. Let's have a dictator. It's good to hear about that.

COLLINS: 10:00 a.m.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unbelievable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: There you heard it. Republicans up in arms over that. Democrats furious over what they believe was a Republican tactic throughout the day to drag out the process, bury the vote in the news cycle in the middle of the night. Today's high stakes vote within the hour setting the stage for the critical week that is ahead. A full House vote expected Wednesday which would make President Trump the third U.S. president in history to be impeached if the votes stay where they appear to be right now.

Let's get to CNN senior congressional correspondent Manu Raju.

Manu, good morning. So Chairman Nadler will gavel in within the hour. What should we expect then?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We should expect that the votes could happen soon thereafter. That votes on the two articles of impeachment first on the abuse of power and also obstruction of Congress as the second vote. Those two of course dealing with how the president dealt with his handling with Ukraine, whether or not he abused his office, violated the Constitution and leveraging the power of his office in order to get that country to announce investigations into his political rivals.

Those votes after two days of marathon debates, those votes are finally going to happen. Now the Republicans when they come in, in the morning, are expected to express their fury, their opposition, their concerns about the way the chairman has handled all this and they can certainly raise procedural objections and probably expect they could do that so that they could delay the final vote for some time. But they cannot delay it for as long as we saw yesterday.

And what happened yesterday was that there was some general understanding that the votes would end probably by early evening, some Republicans actually wanted to head to the congressional ball at the White House.

HARLOW: Right.

RAJU: And there was expectation by the early evening it would end. But because of the rules, any member could offer an amendment. Any member on this committee where 40 people attended can speak to up to five minutes each. And so it continued to drag on and on through the course of the night. And that's when Nadler made that decision at the last minute to essentially say we're going to delay the final vote until tomorrow morning, this morning, to allow the public to see this vote. Catching Republicans by surprise. Expecting the final vote to happen.

And that's what really prompted that back and forth. But Democrats said that they weren't going to let Republicans push this historic vote into the middle of the night. That's why they want to do it here in the next hour. So expect more fireworks. Certainly not as long of a session. But setting up that historic vote next week where the president is set to get impeached by the House -- guys.

HARLOW: OK, Manu, thank you very, very much.

So let's go now to the White House. Our senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns is there.

Joe, I mean, you know, Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell doesn't do a lot of interviews. He did one last night on "Hannity." And something he said has everyone talking. And that is, that essentially, you know, the Senate, that will be the jurors in the Senate trial, that they're going to work in lockstep with the White House on this.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, he certainly said there's going to be coordination, Poppy. And I don't think that's any surprise. As you know, the chief justice of the United States will be in the chair presiding and Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell, of course, is still the Republican leader. And he gets to call a lot of the shots.

Listen to what he said on FOX and we'll talk about it after.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Everything I do during this, I'm coordinating with the White House counsel. We'll be working through this process hopefully in a fairly short period of time in total coordination with the White House Counsel's Office and the people who are representing the president in the well of the Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:05:10]

JOHNS: OK. So not a traditional trial at all. That's very obvious. And there was a meeting in McConnell's office just yesterday between White House counsel Pat Cipollone and also Eric Yulan, who is the Legislative Affairs director for the White House, just came in in June and could be a very important player. Now he happens to be a former chief of staff for Senate majority leader Bill Frist back in the day. That was years ago. And he's already on the record as saying the president's rights have to be protected.

As to the possibility of calling witnesses, cross-examining witnesses, it sounds like from that interview last night McConnell hasn't made a decision on whether there will be witnesses because others in the Senate are very concerned that this could be turned into a three-ring circus. Very unpredictable. So after the first of the year, we'll see what happens. Back to you.

SCIUTTO: Joe Johns at the White House, thanks very much.

Joining us now to discuss, Michael Gerhardt, he's a law professor at the University of North Carolina, Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for "USA Today."

Michael, you know, Stalinesque, a little bit silly. I mean, Stalin sent billions of people to gulag. The chairman, whether you vote last night or today. So tell me about the vote today and then what happens after that vote next week.

MICHAEL GERHARDT, LAW PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA: Well, the vote is going to be historic. And that's what we've heard. This is -- but it's critical. We'll have the House Judiciary Committee vote to approve two articles of impeachment and then almost immediately they will go to the floor. And then at that point it's up to Speaker Pelosi how the floor will be managed. And she'll coordinate all that timing and who speaks and how it gets done.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Michael, just one quick follow up on that. How normal or abnormal is it for the Senate majority leader to work in, what he said, was lockstep essentially with the White House on a Senate trial? Is that normal?

GERHARDT: It is extremely unusual. We don't have a lot of experience with presidential impeachments, but this is the first time in history when the president was coordinating with a big block of people from his own party in the Senate. With Andrew Johnson, he wasn't coordinating with anyone. No one liked Andrew Johnson. Bill Clinton was not coordinating with the Democrats. In fact they kept a fair distance between themselves.

Richard Nixon, his party was beginning to fragment at this point and in fact it was Barry Goldwater that said to him, the great Barry Goldwater, Republican, said he's not going to get through this without being convicted and removed. So this is the first time in history that we've seen this kind of coordination.

HARLOW: Wow.

SCIUTTO: Well, this is McConnell. I mean, he famously said that he wanted to make Obama a one-term president so for him to defend the Republican president in this way, perhaps not so surprising.

Susan Page, I want to ask you about what we learned from yesterday's hearing in terms of the Republican strategy going forward. There's a lot of talk about Joe Biden yesterday. A lot of talk about Hunter Biden, much like the president. Should we look at this -- looking even beyond the Senate trial that Republicans are going to make Biden really and Ukraine and his son's business dealings in Ukraine a real focus in 2020?

SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, USA TODAY: You know, I think Republicans were reasonably happy with how things went for them yesterday. They engaged rather -- in a rather limited way on the facts of the matter. They talked a lot about the process and whether it was unfair. They managed to raise a lot of accusations against Joe Biden who was the front-runner for the nomination to oppose President Trump next year.

And, yes, I think this is a theme they will continue to hit. And they have some -- you know, there's some history that when you can make a charge over and over again, it is hard for someone to defend themselves from a relentless political attack. We saw that in the last election against Hillary Clinton and her e-mails. Some people thought it was legitimate. Some people thought it wasn't. But because Republicans were so consistent in making the attack it was hard for her to respond.

And one other thing. Republicans are really getting cheered on by President Trump yesterday. The number of retweets that he was making of members of the Judiciary Committee, Republicans, and the arguments they were making set records for his Twitter usage as president.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes, and you know, Poppy, it's interesting. We were talking before that Trump's strategy here of using Ukraine as an attack line on Joe Biden, right, is -- it seems to be working.

HARLOW: Totally. Totally. And so, Michael, to you on this, can you help us understand how much power to compel witnesses to talk the Chief Justice John Roberts will have in the Senate trial. So whether it's, you know, Republicans wanting a Hunter Biden or a Joe Biden, candidate Biden, or whether it's the Democrats wanting a John Bolton or Mick Mulvaney, what is the answer? Jim and I every day ask this and we can't get a straight answer. So I guess because maybe we don't know.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: But what kind of power is the chief justice going to have here?

GERHARDT: Not much. He's there to kind of make sure all the process is working, and he won't even address questions about witnesses unless somebody makes a motion to have any witnesses.

[09:10:10]

And at that point, he -- my guess is he'll try and find a way to sort of avoid a hard ruling. If he does make a ruling and leave it to the Senate. If it does make a ruling, it may be appealed to the entire Senate and 51 senators will decide whether or not to approve of what the chief justice did.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Why we're showing those live pictures there, folks? That's because in less than an hour the House Judiciary Committee is going to vote on articles of impeachment against a sitting president. If you look back 21 years for the last time this happened, almost 50 years prior to that with President Nixon.

Susan Page, you've got a lot of experience in Washington, you've covered the politics of this for some time. How -- and we use the word historic often. And it is because it's history here. Put it into context in this divisive time in our country.

PAGE: You know, when I went to journalism school, I did not think I'd ever cover a presidential impeachment. And now I'm covering my second.

SCIUTTO: Yes. PAGE: I think the -- so it's definitely historic. I think the

politics of it are very hard to calculate. And I think people who try to calculate at this point how it's going to unfold in an election that is a year away are on a fool's journey because it could reverberate against Republicans. It could reverberate against Democrats. It could matter not very much by the time Election Day comes around next year.

This is still a story that is developing and we're going to have to, I think, do something that's hard, which is wait and see.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Let's get rid of assumptions for a moment.

(LAUGHTER)

SCIUTTO: And watch it, right, Poppy?

HARLOW: Of course. Susan, the president's campaign -- head of his campaign for 2020 Brad Parscale thinks this is going to be great for him. This is going to work for him. He says it's already helping the president, and there is a new poll out of Monmouth University yesterday. And what struck us was the independents. When you look at independents, when they are asked, should Trump be impeached and compelled to leave the presidency, independents, 36 percent, yes, 55 percent no.

PAGE: You know, it has, I think, in some ways been helpful for the president in that it's galvanized his core supporters. You see that when you -- you see that when you have these big rallies. And he talks about impeachment. But, you know, I think that it's not the historical record he would like to take -- be taking forth.

You know, the president is now about even in swing states with Joe Biden in the Wisconsin poll we saw yesterday from Marquette, for instance.

HARLOW: Yes.

PAGE: Where would he be with this economy if he were not enmeshed in this impeachment inquiry? He might be in considerably better. He might be in a situation where he seems like the overwhelming favorite next year. So we'll wait and see but, yes, I think that on a political front, this has not been bad for the president so far.

SCIUTTO: One thing that hasn't changed, though, is if you look at approval-disapproval numbers, those have been pretty rock solid. I mean, in these recent weeks and almost over the last year.

Michael Gerhardt, Susan Page, a lot to follow.

And folks if you're at home, news is going to happen on this network.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Just around the top of the hour. But we have other news coming on CNN. HARLOW: Yes. We do. This is just in to CNN. Police in Conyers,

Georgia, that's right outside of Atlanta, right now are responding to reports of an active shooter at a facility there. According to a federal source with knowledge of the investigation, at least one person has been shot. The shooter, they believe, is still inside of the dart container plant.

We are continuing to monitor this for you. Of course, tragic situation. As we get details, we will bring them to you.

SCIUTTO: How often do we mention that phrase, active shooter, on this network.

HARLOW: I mean -- yes.

SCIUTTO: An American problem.

Well, we are, as we said, less than an hour away from the House Judiciary Committee voting on articles of impeachment against the sitting president. We're going to bring that to you live as it happens.

HARLOW: Plus, a huge election victory for Boris Johnson and his Conservative Party paving the way for Brexit. What could that mean or indicate about the upcoming election in the United States? We'll take you live to 10 Downing Street in London.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Good morning to you. Our country, just minutes away from a critical impeachment vote on Capitol Hill. At the top of the hour, the House Judiciary Committee -- and that's a live picture there, will decide whether to send two articles of impeachment to a full house -- to the full house for a vote there.

POPPY HARLOW, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Now, the vote is expected along party lines. With us now to talk about this, Democratic Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney of New York, a member of the House Intelligence Committee. We appreciate you being here this morning. You know, your district is an important, interesting one politically.

Of course, this is a district that was won by President Obama twice, and then the president won it in 2016. Do you share what seemed to be -- to us, at least, from the outside, increasing concerns from some of your fellow Democrats in districts like yours, in swing districts that they don't have the backing of enough constituents to vote to impeach the president?

REP. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY (D-NY): Look, you're always -- you're always mindful whether you're representing the people who sent you to Washington. But, you know, look, doing the right thing can be hard. And the founders didn't say, you know, high crimes and misdemeanors as long as it polls well or as long as people understand it right off the bat. We have a job to do to communicate why this is necessary. And it's not a good thing for our country --

HARLOW: Yes --

MALONEY: Let's be clear. There should be no pleasure in this.

HARLOW: I hear you on that. But polling is indicative of how your constituents feel, right? And so, I guess my question to you is, is the duty to vote the way you believe is right or is it to reflect the majority of your constituents?

[09:20:00]

MALONEY: I think as a representative, you are always both trying to represent the people who sent you, and trying to lead when you have access to more information, when you feel it's important for the constitution and the Republic. When you feel that it is your duty, the oath you swore -- let me tell you something, first of all, I think for the most part, the American people do understand than the polls do reflect, that this is both important and necessary.

I think it's understandable that people feel some concern about what the country is going through. These actions are as unfortunate as they are necessary. The president has put us in this position, and it is one that is not good for the country. But we must not shrink away from enforcing our laws, our constitution.

We can't lose our sense of right and wrong as we approach the holidays. The greatest gift I think we can give to the country is to live into our values and to remember the eternal important things that are going to save this country.

HARLOW: Jim?

SCIUTTO: Congressman, two names that came up repeatedly from Republican members yesterday in that hearing were Joe Biden and Hunter Biden. And you got a taste of what appears to be not just the president's strategy, but his party's strategy going into 2020, which is to use Ukraine, his son's position on the Burisma board as an attack line, repeated attack line against Joe Biden.

Joe Biden is running if not solely, but largely on the argument that he's the best guy to beat Trump. And I wonder if you're concerned that, that attack line weakens Joe Biden as a potential -- we don't know it's going to be this, but a potential Democratic nominee.

MALONEY: Mr. Sciutto, I'm concerned that you guys in the press are not going to be able to resist spending the next year talking about something that has nothing to do with the president's misconduct, and we all saw this movie in 2016, all due respect and Donald Trump became president. I think we should focus on the president's conduct.

I don't think Hunter Biden knows a thing about what President Trump did or didn't do in Ukraine. I don't think Hunter Biden broke any laws. I don't think Hunter Biden has anything to do with the future of our country, with our constitution. And I think Joe Biden is showing an amount of strength and our primary process will work it out.

But the American public should be able to choose based on what the president has done, and whether they want to continue that record of conduct and abuse in the future.

SCIUTTO: With respect, congressman, you said in an interview on "Fox News", November 10th, and I'm quoting you here, "there are certain questions surrounding Hunter Biden and his position on that board here. Are there not legitimate questions?

MALONEY: Of course there are. But, my goodness, could we -- could we understand the concept of proportionality and relevance to the future of the country? You guys want to put him on an equal footing sometime is my only point, and I just think -- I think when you compare what's -- excuse me, when you compare what's at stake, we should be focused on the president's conduct. And I don't intend to lose --

SCIUTTO: So --

MALONEY: My focus on that. All due respect, you guys can spend as much time as you choose, talking about Hunter Biden --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

MALONEY: I don't think --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

MALONEY: It has a darn thing to do with the future of the country.

HARLOW: So, respectfully, Congressman, that's not what Jim is doing. He's asking a legitimate question about a witness that is on the list that Republicans would like to call in your own words last month.

MALONEY: Right --

HARLOW: If you watch this show daily, you'll see where we spend our time and our energy.

MALONEY: Well, what do you --

HARLOW: Senate majority, let me ask you something --

MALONEY: Excuse me, what -- excuse me --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: We only have limited time.

MALONEY: Well, hey, look, what are we doing right here? We're talking about Hunter Biden --

HARLOW: I'm about to ask you about the Senate Majority leader, and not Hunter Biden.

MALONEY: All right -- HARLOW: So, Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell --

MALONEY: Let's do it --

HARLOW: Said last night on "Fox", quote, "there's no chance the president is going to be removed from office." You said that yesterday on this network that it is a terrible mistake to negotiate against ourselves. To your fellow Democrats, some of whom are saying, well, maybe we should move to censure the president instead of impeaching him.

Help us understand that argument when you have McConnell saying, there's no way the president will be removed from office? Why do you think -- what's your warning to fellow Democrats who think censure is a better move?

MALONEY: Well, has the president admitted wrongdoing? Has the president said I'm sorry what I did was wrong? I won't do it again. I think that would be an occasion where you might say, gee, do we need to go full bore on this. He has not done that. Has any -- has any -- have a significant number of Republicans said that? In other words, why would we --

HARLOW: So, if the president apologized, then that -- then impeachment wouldn't be necessary?

MALONEY: I think the point is that, if there's a recognition that there was wrongdoing, that this was a terrible thing for our country and almost certainly against the law. Then I guess you might have an occasion where some of us would say what's in the best interest of the country in light of the fact that we have an election coming up.

Instead, you have a president denying any wrongdoing, a Republican Party lock-step behind him, and that is why I believe the president has left us no choice, but to do our constitutional duty. And I think it's a terrible idea for Democrats to lose their will and to start negotiating against ourselves.

[09:25:00]

And I say that as someone who represents a district that voted for the president. I'm not just talking about it. I think this is important.

SCIUTTO: Congressman, you know, the irony is that as the president is likely to be impeached today for connecting his political interests to U.S. foreign policy in Ukraine, the fact is, his personal attorney is still digging deep there as you know. He was meeting with Ukrainian politicians, pro-Russian politicians, I should note, one of whom formerly was educated by the KGB to gather information on a political opponent.

I wonder if you're concerned that the 2020 election has been compromised to some degree because the president continues to invite foreign interference.

MALONEY: Absolutely I am. And it's another great point to make when we're talking about whether we should start watering down how we view it. In other words, this is an ongoing scheme. They're still doing it. I remember he picked up the phone to pressure the president of Ukraine, the day after Bob Mueller testified. I think we've got abundant evidence that unless we hold this president accountable, he will continue with his misconduct. And what you're talking about going on in Ukraine is a great example.

HARLOW: And Jim has written a whole book about it. Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney, good to have you come back, thank you very much --

MALONEY: My pleasure --

HARLOW: We appreciate it. So, a huge day, huge night overnight in the U.K., a big and historic win for Boris Johnson's Conservative Party in the U.K. election. Should those results be cause for concern for Democrats here in 2020? We'll explain, next.

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[09:30:00]