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Johnson wins Majority in U.K.; House Votes on Impeachment; History of Impeachment and Today. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 13, 2019 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:31:09]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: A huge victory for Britain's Prime Minister Boris Johnson. The U.K.'s conservative party securing the largest conservative majority in parliament since Margaret Thatcher.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Yes, and the polls leading up to it showed a much tighter finish.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Johnson's landslide win coming after many political analysts say the U.K.'s opposition party leaders raced too far to the left.

CNN's Max Foster joins us now from 10 Downing Street, where Johnson has begun forming a new government.

You know, enormous implications here, Max. I mean Brexit's going to happen, one. But also, this is a genuine threat to the United Kingdom staying together, right? I mean Scotland might vote for independence as a result. It opposes this. Northern Ireland? I mean the -- big implications.

MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. So there is this -- you know, the central message that Boris Johnson went into this campaign with was get Brexit done. And he had a resounding success on that front.

We know that because there are Labour constituencies, traditionally Labour constituencies, where they voted Brexit and they switched to conservative, which is a huge move. They didn't really buy in to this Jeremy Corbyn Labour argument, stronger public services, taxing the wealthy. They didn't buy into that broad agenda. They went for the sole Brexit agenda.

I will, though, say, you're intimating there about the Scottish story, which is different. The Scottish nationalists swept the board there. They dominate Scottish politics now. And they did go very big on public services. So two separate stories there.

And also Nicola Sturgeon, who heads that Scottish nationalist party, is talking about an independence referendum, trying to get control of that process from London. So we're heading towards a potential constitutional crisis because independence in Scotland is something that Boris Johnson is firmly against.

HARLOW: What -- Max, before you go, I mean, what impact will Johnson's victory -- and I think a resounding victory, right, the way it happened. This wasn't as close as the polling was indicating.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: What -- what will that -- what impact do you think that that will have on President Trump and just the special relationship between our two countries?

FOSTER: Well, the two are connected. Boris Johnson and President Trump are fond of each other. They've got a lot of similar views. They are anti-European Union, they're pro-Brexit, if you like, and they work together on that issue. They discussed that issue.

I think it's very -- very, very positive for the special relationship, certainly in comparison to what it would have been with Jeremy Corbyn, where they would have had very, very little in common. And Boris Johnson and President Trump working together on this trade deal. President Trump saying that that's more likely now because of Brexit and the trade deal could be even bigger than the one that Boris Johnson expects to get with the EU.

SCIUTTO: Max Foster there, remarkable events all around Christmas. We see the Christmas tree behind you. And we'll stay on top of it.

News here in the U.S.

The House Judiciary Committee, it's going to vote soon, within minutes in fact, beginning on two articles of impeachment against the president. But if there's a Senate trial, that's likely as well, Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says there is no chance the president will be removed from office. He must have been counting votes.

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[09:39:09]

HARLOW: All right, welcome back.

The House Judiciary Committee will take an historic vote on impeachment in just a few minutes. Meantime, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is preparing for the trial in the Senate. McConnell says he's already met with White House lawyers and that they have agreed to coordinate on a strategy.

SCIUTTO: That's truly unprecedented because that means jurors, those are the senators, in an upcoming trial, and that's what this is, constitutionally, are working in effect with the defendant despite having to take an oath to be impartial as jurors.

Let's go now to CNN national correspondent Suzanne Malveaux on Capitol Hill. And yet we're going to see them in lockstep with the White House.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know what's amazing about this, Jim, is that Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said out loud before cameras what many people suspected is that there is no daylight between the senator as well as the White House.

[09:40:00]

That emerging from this closed door session with White House Counsel Pat Cipollone saying essentially that, yes, they're -- they don't expect to lose a single Republican. That the scale and scope of this trial will be at the behest and at the agreement -- with the agreement of the White House working hand in hand.

Just want to play a little bit of the -- the just of what he said and the message just in terms of how united they are with this White House.

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SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I'm going to take my cues from the -- from the president's lawyers. But, yes, if you know you have the votes, you've listened to the arguments on both sides, and believe the case is so slim, so weak that you have the votes to end it, that might be what the president's lawyers would prefer and you can certainly make a case for making it shorter rather than longer since it's such a weak case.

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MALVEAUX: And Republicans largely see this as an opportunity, perhaps even a strategy, for McConnell to reach out and speak directly to President Trump about -- reassure him, if you will, that there's not going to be a long trial. It's a speedy trial. And that is the best way to move forward.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, very revealing in those words. That's what the president's lawyers want, therefore, that's what I'm going to do as senator majority leader. It's remarkable.

Suzanne Malveaux on The Hill, thanks very much.

HARLOW: All right, let's talk about how remarkable that is with an historian who knows a thing or two about impeachment. Former director of the Nixon Presidential Library, CNN political historian Tim Naftali.

Thank you so much for being here.

I was thinking this morning how valuable you've been to us, to the network through all of this. So, thank you again.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN POLITICAL HISTORIAN: Well, this is a very difficult day. I think anyone who makes light of today hasn't fully processed how constitutionally painful it is to vote articles of impeachment against a president, which is likely to happen today.

I would like viewers to understand how wrong Senator McConnell is. And this is not a matter of policy. It's a matter of the Constitution. Under no circumstances, under no circumstance should members of the Senate be prejudging evidence of a trial. Under no circumstances should the leader of one party in the Senate be coordinating his actions with the group -- with the accused, with representatives of the accused. Under no circumstances should the leader of the president's party be taking cues as to his conduct from the White House.

Let me make clear, the Clinton case was extremely partisan. I know it's been 20 years. Those who can remember it will remember how deeply divided the country was over how to deal with the president lying about an extramarital affair. But the Senate voted 100-0 -- 100-0 to approve the procedure. The Republican majority, Trent Lott was the majority leader, dealt with the Democratic minority, Tom Daschle, and they came up with a solution that they supported 100 percent.

We're not going to see that this time. We're not going to see an effort, clearly because the -- because Mitch McConnell has just told us, to reach some kind of compromise for the country.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NAFTALI: And that's a real change. And it's awful.

SCIUTTO: Tim Naftali, to your point, I'm just going to read from the Senate manual which includes the following oath for senators sitting as jurors. I solemnly swear that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of Donald J. Trump, fill in the name obviously, now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws, so help me God.

And we have heard some Republican senators, Mitt Romney, even a couple others say, listen, I'm sitting as a juror, I'm not going to prejudge where I'm going to go with this.

Tell us what that coordination means for what the trial looks like, what witnesses may or may not be called. What are the effects then of this political coordination?

NAFTALI: Well, I'm not a lawyer, but I spent some time reading the diaries of the jurors in the Nixon case, both -- of people in the House. And Republicans in the House, remember Richard Nixon was a Republican, they didn't want to meet with Richard Nixon. A few of them did, but they were worried of being considered guilty of jury tampering. That's how seriously they took their constitutional duty. They didn't even want to engage with the White House, let alone take pointers or notes or guidance from the White House.

So what Senator McConnell is doing is he's undermining the spirit in the Constitution of this entire process. Under no circumstances should the parties in either house be taking direction from the defendant. [09:45:01]

HARLOW: Tim Naftali, could not be more clearly said. And the history here and context is incredibly important on such a consequential day. Jim and I are both grateful for you -- to have you.

We are minutes away from a crucial vote in the House Judiciary Committee after yesterday's contentious 14-hour debate. Our special coverage is next.

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[09:50:09]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world.

History on The Hill. Moments from now, the House Judiciary Committee voting on two articles of impeachment against the president of the United States, setting the stage for a full vote on the House floor next Wednesday, making Donald Trump potentially the third president of the United States to be impeached.

But before this critical vote, we're bracing for fireworks, lots of them. Republicans are outraged after the Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler postponed action following nearly 14 hours of very intense, fiery debate. Democrats want this historic moment to happen in the daylight and it will happen in just minutes.

Let's go to CNN's Manu Raju up on Capitol Hill.

Manu, so what -- what should we expect just minutes from now?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, expect Republicans to express their outrage about the proceedings that occurred yesterday in which the Democrats abruptly adjourned that hearing to push the votes until this morning because the Democrats themselves were angry at the Republicans' handling of yesterday's session. They believe that Republicans were intentionally seeking to delay these historic votes until overnight. So Jerry Nadler, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, said, well, we're going to push this until the morning and did not give the Republicans advanced notice and that prompted the outrage that we heard from Republicans last night and through this morning.

But, there's only so much that the Republicans can do in this open session because essentially all the amendments have been voted on. They're moving to the final votes. Expect some procedural objections from Republicans to make that could delay some of the proceedings. But, ultimately, the votes are going to happen. It's going to happen like this. First there's going to be a vote on that article -- that impeachment article alleging the president abused his power and his dealings with Ukraine, leveraged his office to push that country to open up investigations into the president's political rivals. And after that is approved on a party line basis, that abuse of power

impeachment article then, the second article of impeachment, dealing with obstruction of Congress, alleging that the president sought to undercut and abuse his office in not cooperating with the impeachment inquiry. So that obstruction of Congress article will be approved on party line basis as well. And that will set the stage for that historic vote next week, which we expect at the moment to be on Wednesday, in which the House will ultimately approve those two articles of impeachment, also on a party line basis, to make the president the third in history to get impeached by the House.

So just in a matter of moments, Wolf, the Republicans can only do so much to delay things. Expect that vote to happen probably this morning, ultimately, sending that to the full chamber to impeach this president, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Manu, we'll get back to you.

We see members already arriving in that hearing room.

Pamela Brown is over at the White House for us.

Pamela, the White House and the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, they've agreed, apparently, to coordinate the likely impeachment trial in the Senate in January.

What are you learning about that strategy?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. The White House views its work in the House largely finished and it's focused on coordinating with the jurors in the Senate, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell ahead of that Senate trial. The White House's top lawyer, Pat Cipollone, met with McConnell yesterday to go after options on the trial, as the White House works to reconcile Trump's eagerness for a theatrical defense with Republican senators' desire to end this trial quickly without live witnesses.

Now, there has been no file decision that has been made, sources say, but McConnell and the White House have agreed that when a trial begins, the House Democratic impeachment managers would have an opportunity to present, followed by Trump's lawyers. We've reported previously Trump -- Pat Cipollone would take the lead in representing Trump, arguing on his behalf. He would be the main person presenting the president's defense at the conclusion of the presentations.

So, after that, the White House may then consult with Senate Republicans, provide its own briefing to Republicans about the next steps it would want to see in the trial, including possible witnesses it would like to be -- that the White House would like to be called, these sources said.

We should note, the White House is also planning, Wolf, a possible direct response from President Trump on the day of the House vote on the articles next week. Something beyond a tweet or comments at Trump's rally on Wednesday should the vote occur on that day. These discussions are ongoing. Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Pamela, we'll get back to you as well.

Let's assess what's going on as we await the start of this historic hearing and this vote that's upcoming in the House Judiciary Committee.

Dana Bash, you're looking at this very, very closely. What do you anticipate we will see? More stalling tactics potentially by some of the Republicans?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Maybe, but the Judiciary chairman has the ability to shoot it down. I mean there are things that he can do procedurally just to kind of move on with things.

What we're going to see at some point today is history being made for only the fourth time in history the House Judiciary Committee is expected to vote "yes" on articles of impeachment against the president of the United States.

[09:55:08]

And we've been talking so much, watching so much of the back and forth, on the nitty-gritty of facts that, by the way, are completely not agreed to on either side. It's like they're living and operating on different planets.

But aside from that, we've been -- we've been so focused on that, it's -- it's hard to -- it's easy to forget the gravity of this. The gravity of what is happening here. And the fact that there is a reason it has only happened four times.

BERMAN: Yes, Andrew Johnson back in 1868, Richard Nixon, 1974, they voted in the House Judiciary Committee to impeach him. He then resigned before a full vote on the House floor. Bill Clinton, 1998. Now Donald Trump in 2019.

All right, so these two articles, Jeffrey, of impeachment, abuse of power and obstruction of justice. So give us the evidence. What are the Democrats saying? Why was there abuse of power and why was there obstruction of justice? Excuse me, obstruction of Congress.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Right. The abuse of -- the abuse of power element, article, is based on the president's interactions with the president of Ukraine. Not just his phone call, but the entire relationship leading up to his discovery of what he was doing. Basically the allegation is, by going to the government of Ukraine, both directly in his phone call and through his intermediaries, the president abused his power by using the leverage he had through the power to hold a White House meeting with the president of Ukraine definitely wanted, and nearly $400 million in military aid, using that leverage to get political dirt on his political -- on his opponent, specifically Joseph Biden. That's the core of the -- of --

BLITZER: That's the Democrats' argument, abuse of power. Obstruction of Congress?

TOOBIN: Obstruction of Congress is very simply the -- Congress has been investigating. They have asked for White House officials to testify. They have asked for White House documents to be produced as part of its oversight rule. And the White House has refused, has refused to produce anything when it comes to the impeachment investigation. And the allegation is that this is a denial of the congressional power under the Constitution, under Article One of the Constitution, that it has the right to conduct this sort of oversight, and that's the basis of Article Two (ph).

BLITZER: As we're talking, Jim Sciutto, very interesting, the president's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, just back from Ukraine, by the way. He was spotted going into the White House. I assume he's going to be meeting with his client, the president of the United States.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: This is the amazing reality here. The president is going to face votes, a likely vote in the House,, impeached for inviting, in effect, foreign interference in the election from Ukraine. As that -- even as that's happening, it's still happening. His personal attorney has returned -- it's interesting, "The Wall Street Journal" piece about this that the moment Giuliani landed from Ukraine on Saturday, according to "The Wall Street Journal," the president called him. What did you get, the president asked? More than you can imagine, Mr. Giuliani answered. And he's going to put his findings into a 20-page report.

We should note, who was Giuliani meeting with in Ukraine? Just to be clear, you know, the kind of -- how much -- how seriously you should take this investigation. He was meeting with pro-Russian Ukrainian politicians, one of whom trained with the KGB. So not just Ukraine, but what is Russia's additional interference, being invited, in effect, by the president's personal attorney. So it -- it raises and answers the question, does the president feel chastened by this process in terms of this kind of thing, seeking dirt on an opponent in a foreign country? It does not appear he is. And we have not seen the last of it.

BLITZER: Doug Collins, the ranking member of the Judiciary Committee, there you see him right there. He's walking in. And Jerry Nadler, presumably, the chairman of the committee, Abby, will be walking in shortly and they'll gavel this session into order.

It went on for, what, 14 hours yesterday. They -- Democrats have the majority. They have 23 right now. Ted Lieu is out. He's ill. Twenty- three to 17. All of the Republican amendments were defeated along strict party lines. And I assume these two articles of impeachment against the president of the United States will be approved along strict party lines.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. I mean I think that nothing else is clear about this except for the partisanship of this whole process and how it continues to not shift on either side. That Democrats are where they are. Republicans are where they are. And even in the 14 hours of debate yesterday, it was, as Dana said, remarkable how Democrats and Republicans were talking past each other on the facts. They were almost not discussing the same issues, going over the same pieces of information, and saying very different things about them.

[10:00:04]

And so it has been a little bit kind of disconcerting if --