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Newtown Celebrates Football Championship; Carly Fiorina Speaks Out on Trump Impeachment; Interview With Rep. Debbie Dingell (D-MI). Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 16, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:02]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: You had reported that some of the players attended Sandy Hook Elementary. Ben Pinto was one. His younger brother Jack was killed in the shooting. He now plays linebacker for Newtown.

And you end your piece, I thought, just so poetically. Long after the other team left and the celebration came to an end, the Newtown team and the friends and the family all gathered midfield.

And you wrote: "The fog had disappeared. It was just shades of blue, white and green and a football family."

And then Riley Ward, who had that game-winning 36-yard touchdown, you quoted him: "I couldn't have asked for anything more. I love this town. I love everybody. I'm at a loss for words."

What was that moment like?

SHAWN MCFARLAND, "THE HARTFORD COURANT": It was incredible.

The players, I think, were a bit in shock. I mean, a game-winning touchdown on a walk-off is enough to handle as it is, but when you pile on the emotions that have been building leading up to this game, the players were at a loss for words.

And even coach Bobby Pattison said himself, hey, we're not going to Disney World, but we're just going to celebrate together as a family.

I think that's what that win meant to them, was, hey, they're all there, friends are there, parents or there, fans are there, students were there. We don't know who was in the school that day seven years ago. But if you were in that town, everything affected them so much.

So, to get that win meant so much more than a ring on their fingers and a story they can tell the rest of our lives. But it was a healing moment, it felt like, for the entire town. It was great to see. And you could tell how much it meant to the players just from the looks on their faces.

And some were crying. Some were laughing. There was hugs. There was cheers. It was an incredible moment. BALDWIN: We're thrilled to celebrate with them from afar, as family

and also just as a community.

Shawn McFarland, thank you.

MCFARLAND: Thank you.

BALDWIN: We continue on. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

A historic week in the House setting the stage for showdown over in the Senate. And President Trump and the push to impeach him are both, of course, the center of each.

In just two days, the U.S. House of Representatives is poised to make Trump just the third U.S. president to be impeached ever.

Then the next battle will begin. And over the weekend, Senator Chuck Schumer fired the first shot, sending the letter to his Republican counterpart, Mitch McConnell, naming these four witnesses that Schumer wants to hear from in the Senate impeachment trial.

Among them, you have actor acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney and former National Security Adviser John Bolton.

And moments ago, the Senate's top Democrat explained why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): The four witnesses we propose have direct knowledge of why the aid to Ukraine was delayed. We don't know what kind of evidence they will present. They might present exculpatory evidence that helps President Trump. It may be incriminating against the president, but they should be heard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Now, there may not be much interest among Senate Republicans for witnesses or a lengthy trial.

Here now are Leader McConnell and the head of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Lindsey Graham.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Everything I do during this, I'm coordinating with White House counsel.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I am trying to give a pretty clear signal I have made up my mind.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But you are ,along with the rest of your Senate fellows, jurors. Is it appropriate to be voicing your opinion even before this gets to the Senate as a trial?

GRAHAM: Well, I must think so, because I'm doing it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Manu Raju, I'm starting with you there on Capitol Hill.

How are Senate Republicans responding to Schumer's letter?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, not well. Most are pushing back.

We're hearing privately from a number of Republicans. We expect to hear more when they come back into session tonight.

But what Republicans are telling me is that the House is the place where you do the fact-finding, not the Senate trial. They said that that is not the role of the senators to bring forward these four witnesses who did not testify before the House impeachment inquiry, because Democrats in the House decided not to go to court to try to compel those witnesses to testify after the White House sought to block their testimony.

They're saying that now that we're the Senate trial phase, we are stuck with the evidence that was presented to us by the House and we should not go that route.

This is what I'm hearing from several Republicans privately. We do expect a more formal response from the Senate majority leader himself. McConnell has said that he will discuss this with the -- with Chuck Schumer privately.

But, nevertheless, I had a chance to ask Chuck Schumer exactly that concern that had been raised by Republican senators and tried to get his reaction about whether or not he believed the House Democrats should have pursued those witnesses, and it was the House's job, and not the Senate's.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: House Democrats decided not to go to court to get these witnesses. Should the Democrats in the House have pursued these witnesses?

[15:05:01]

SCHUMER: Well, look, I'm not going to second-guess the House. There is virtually no argument, no good argument, if you're interested in the facts, in not having these witnesses come forward now.

And ,remember, the standard at a trial is different than the standard when a prosecutor, in this case the House impeachment authority, puts together a case. A trial is a place for witnesses.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAJU: Now, ultimately, it will be up to 51 senators to decide exactly who the witnesses are that will come forward and if there are any witnesses altogether.

So that could mean that there could be votes on the floor of the Senate to compel some of these witnesses to come forward. And that would require probably 47 Democrats to get four Republicans to break ranks to vote to get those witnesses, like a Mick Mulvaney or a John Bolton, to come forward.

And at the moment, Republicans are not saying they're going to go there. So this could take some time to play out. We will see if any Republicans decide to buckle as they face pressure ahead of these key votes on the floor -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, we will let you to it.

Manu, thank you.

By the way, a new FOX News poll finds half the nation supports the impeachment and removal of the president of the United States.

And one congresswoman's town hall just short time ago seems to reflect those numbers in a very loud way. Michigan Democrat Elissa Slotkin explained at the forum today why she is supporting these articles of impeachment against President Trump.

And if the jeers weren't quite drowning out the cheers, the applause was overtaking the outbursts. Slotkin's districts went for the president by seven points back in 2016. And here's a sampling of what the freshman Democrat faced today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): But what was fundamentally different for me is that the president decided to do this for his own political gain, and not for the national security interests of the United States.

Whether you agree with me or not, that I have attempted, in all that I can, to be transparent, to be communicative, to let you know what I was doing. And, for me, this was an issue of principle. This was an issue in my bones...

(SHOUTING)

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN'S Jason Carroll is there in Rochester, Michigan, where Slotkin's town hall was.

And, Jason, you were -- read the room for us, because it was tough to tell whether she had more supporters or more folks yelling. Which was it?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, with all that yelling, it was really hard to tell. Look, I mean, there was definitely a vocal group of people in the back

of the room who were not in support of what she has decided. But if you had to read the entire room, Brooke, I mean, putting the people yelling aside, I mean, it was divided.

I mean, there were just as many people in there who were supporting the congresswoman as those who did not support her. And that's pretty much reflective of what the 8th District is like. It's a deeply divided district.

The congresswoman knew before that she was going to hold this town hall of what she was going to -- of what was going to happen here. This is actually her fifth town hall. She says town halls before this have been just as passionate from people expressing both sides.

And she says going forward, if she has more, they will probably be just as passionate, so no surprise from the congresswoman. And I have to tell you, Brooke, those folks in the back of the room were shouting from start to finish.

But, at the very end, I spoke to one Trump supporter, asked him, I said, what did you think about how the whole thing went? He said, look, he commended the congresswoman for being able to hold her composure throughout the entire town hall.

But he said, at the end of the day, his feeling is that maybe she won the battle, but the Democrats in 2020 are going to lose the war, meaning that this is really going to hurt Democrats nationally going to hurt -- it's going to hurt her also in the district.

But I had an opportunity to speak to her when this was all over, and spoke to her. And she said, look, this was not about politics. She said that she took a lot of time. She actually went back and reread the Constitution, read a lot of literature.

And she said she came to the decision that politics was going to have to be put aside, and this is a decision that ultimately she had no choice but to reach.

But, obviously, no matter what she was going to do here, it was not going to make a lot of people happy -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, sounds a lot like what we just heard from Congressman Jason Crow last hour, a Democrat, flipped his district, trying to push politics aside.

CARROLL: Yes.

BALDWIN: But it's a tough vote when you do, when you do think politics.

Jason, thank you in Michigan.

With me now, Michigan Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, who is also senior whip and co-chair of the House Democratic Policy and Communications Committee. So, Congresswoman Dingell, nice to have you back. Welcome.

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): Thank you. Good to be with you.

BALDWIN: You have a big day ahead of you in 48 hours. You will be voting. Have you decided?

DINGELL: You know, I'm -- like Elissa and many of my other colleagues, have been very thoughtful.

I have done everything that Elissa has done and even pulled out my Federalist Papers.

[15:10:00]

And I'm really disturbed by what's happening in this country about how divided we are. But from the very moment that President Trump appointed an inspector general, said there was a credible threat to our national security, and it was urgent, I have been disturbed.

And I think that, when a president uses his office for his own private personal political gain, that's disturbing. And, secondly, there clearly has been an obstruction of Congress, even as I'm listening to the show and hearing the debate in the Senate about whether witnesses should appear before the Senate.

If there was nothing to hide, then why did he tell his staff not to appear before the House? And we do -- when you go through, when you read our Constitution, there are clearly three equal branches of government.

And we are not respecting the roles and the oversight responsibilities of the Congress.

BALDWIN: So, if I'm hearing, through all of your frustration and rereading of our nation's most historic, most important papers, you are a yes on abuse of power and obstruction of Congress?

DINGELL: Haven't told that anybody yet. I'm not -- I haven't announced what I'm going to do.

I don't view this as a -- I'm somebody who views this as a very moral decision tied to the oath of office that I took. And if we don't step up and allow this -- kind of things to happen, what does that mean?

But if you think I'm not worried about how divided this country is, that I know Russia is deliberately not only trying to divide our country, but other democracies around the world, they're trying to destabilize governments, that weighs on me.

And I think we all need to be talking about that as well. I wish this wasn't...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: So, you're not saying yet. It sounds like you're keeping this to yourself.

DINGELL: I'm not telling anybody what I'm...

(CROSSTALK)

DINGELL: You will see how I vote.

BALDWIN: Well, OK. I'm going to let -- I will you off the hook for now on that, because it is a huge -- it is a huge decision. And it's happening...

DINGELL: Hey, listen, the president tweeted gets me this weekend. And if you think that I haven't heard from haters around this country...

BALDWIN: I wanted to ask you about that.

I wanted to ask you about that, about walking and chewing gum at the same time. That was quite a retort, Congresswoman Dingell. I mean, you were on -- let me back up for people watching.

So you were on TV a couple times this weekend. And then when you happened to be, I think it was over on FOX, right, the channel that the president does tend to watch...

DINGELL: I actually think it was MSNBC. It was actually...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: You think it was...

(CROSSTALK)

DINGELL: I do, because of the timing.

BALDWIN: So, what was it you think -- was it when you were talking about how the White House had chosen to block the key witnesses from testifying, that he then tweeted you back and invoked your late husband? What was it?

DINGELL: First of all, I got to tell you, my husband earned those honors.

And he hit me -- I'm having a hard time. I miss him. And you wonder what he'd be tweeting right now, to tell you the truth.

But I don't know what -- I have talked to several people who've looked at that interview, people that you know from your own cable station, and they're like, you were really measured.

I have been measured in this from the beginning. When people were asking me this summer -- Tom Steyer bought 40 ads, MoveOn.org -- I was, hey, we got to work with this president when we can. And you got to have clear grounds before you take such a significant move.

But when a President Trump-appointed inspector general says, there's a potential threat to our national security, you have got to listen. You have got a responsibility to pay attention. That's what I took the oath of office for.

It is not a political decision. And I said that on MSNBC. You don't put your finger in the air and say, how are -- what do people think? You have to do what is right for this country to protect our Constitution and our democracy. And I take that very seriously.

This is, I think, the hardest moment I will have in my service, however long that may be. This is about our country and our democracy.

BALDWIN: And that's your point. I presume that was your point about, we can walk and chew gum at the same time, your retort back to the president?

DINGELL: That's correct.

BALDWIN: Yes.

DINGELL: And, by the way, I have said from the very moment that he was elected I will work with him. And I have worked with him on the trade deal, opioid drugs, many other things that matter to the people in my district.

We need to be doing that.

But I also have a responsibility to make sure we are protecting our national security and our democracy.

BALDWIN: And his mentioning your husband, the longest serving member of Congress in the United States, what did that feel like?

DINGELL: It really felt awful, you want to know the truth.

I'm already missing him. And it just -- my husband served in World War II. He loved this country. And it was -- I didn't -- I didn't want his funeral to become political. I was very grateful for his call. He really did care about my loss.

And so it really hurt. I'm not -- to say to you that that didn't shake me and didn't bother me would be a lie.

BALDWIN: Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, good luck Wednesday on your votes, and we will talk on the other side of that.

[15:15:00]

Thank you.

DINGELL: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Coming up next: One of President Trump's 2016 rivals, Carly Fiorina, speaks to CNN about whether she thinks he should be impeached. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLY FIORINA, FORMER HEWLETT-PACKARD CEO: I think it is vital that he be impeached.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Much more on her thinking and why she says she's not sure if she will stay in the Republican Party.

Plus, former FBI Director James Comey admits he was wrong about some of the mistakes made in the Russia investigation.

And later, the Army-Navy football game sparks two internal investigations after cadets were caught on camera making hand gestures that some people suggest could have been white nationalist.

So we will update you on where that investigation stands.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:41]

BALDWIN: One of President Trump's former Republican rivals in the 2016 election is speaking out on his possible impeachment.

Carly Fiorina famously shot back at then candidate Trump in a debate after he made a derogatory comment about her appearance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FIORINA: I think women all over this country heard very clearly what Mr. Trump said.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Today, the former Hewlett-Packard CEO is calling out the president and her own party.

Here is part of our conversation with my colleague Poppy Harlow.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you believe President Trump should be impeached and removed from office?

FIORINA: I think he is going to be impeached. And I think he won't be removed from office.

HARLOW: Should be removed from office? If you were -- you ran for Senate. If you were in the Senate?

(CROSSTALK)

FIORINA: It's a hypothetical. I think it is vital that he be impeached.

Whether removed this close to an election, I don't know. But I think the conduct is impeachable.

And what I regret is that the principles that are being debated in this impeachment trial, separation of powers, abuse of power, obstruction of Congress, those principles are not as immediate or intense as partisanship, or people's belief that the policies that I care about impact me personally.

So, for example, there is a large pro-life community in this country and they feel disrespected by the Democrat Party. And my prediction is, they will stand by Trump through everything, because that issue is not only important to them, but it's personal to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Poppy is with me now.

Hi, friend.

HARLOW: Hi.

BALDWIN: Great interview.

HARLOW: Man, she came to talk, because she made a lot of news.

BALDWIN: She came to play.

When she talked about how it's vital for Trump to be impeached, what did she say about her fellow Republicans who aren't at all going that far?

HARLOW: Because this is bigger than him, right? This is about the state of the Republican Party that she ran not long ago to represent as -- trying to be president of the United States.

I asked her about the, frankly, crickets in the party right now on this and their loyalty to the president, despite his actions, and despite what many have said in private.

Here's she told me on that front.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: What does the Republican Party today stand for?

FIORINA: I don't know. Loyalty to Trump is what I think it stands for, sadly, sadly.

HARLOW: And what has the arc of the last three years taught you, and what do you want the party to be in five years?

(CROSSTALK)

FIORINA: The Republican Party was the party of Abraham Lincoln. I think -- I believe three things that I thought the party stood for.

Number one, everyone has potential, and we should not be defined by our circumstances. Number two, people closest to the problem know best how to solve it.

And, number three, power concentrated is power abused, always. It doesn't matter how well-intended the holder of power is. Power concentrated is power abused. Those are the things I believe.

I don't know that the Republican Party believes in those things anymore. They certainly don't act that way. They used to be clear- eyed about the danger from Russia or China or North Korea. I don't know that they are anymore.

HARLOW: If you do run for political office again, will you run as a Republican, or has the...

FIORINA: I don't know. I don't know if I'm running, and I don't know if I will.

HARLOW: So has the party potentially lost you?

FIORINA: We will see. I don't make rash decisions.

But my party designation doesn't define me, honestly. It never has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Wow. So she's not sure. That's playing it forward for her

But I'm back on her -- what she said about Trump. So she says, on the one hand, it's vital for him to be impeached.

HARLOW: Right.

BALDWIN: And, yes, she admitted to you that, after running against them, she voted for him in 2016.

What does she do come November of 2020?

HARLOW: Well, that's the question, right?

And I -- we couldn't find anywhere. We researched before the interview. Did she admit -- did she say she voted for him? And she'd never answered that question before.

So for her to say that was notable. But then I thought, well, then, if she's bitterly disappointed, she's not going to vote for him again. But she might, because she said it depends who the Democrat is.

[15:25:03]

It's perplexing. I said, well, OK, a Biden, Bloomberg, would they be more palatable to you? She wouldn't go that far, said, I don't sort of talking in hypotheticals. So I don't know. One thing that struck me a lot from the interview, what -- it's in the bigger podcast -- is what she said about women in the Republican Party. I said, Carly Fiorina is a woman who ran for president on the Republican ticket. Why are there only 21 Republican women in the House and the Senate?

Here's what she said to me -- and I quote -- "It's because the brand, the way business has been conducted sends a message we don't value you and we don't respect you."

That's a warning to the party about how it talks about women, treats women, in her opinion, which was telling to me.

BALDWIN: I have spoken to several Republican women about that, because there should be more Republican women in office.

HARLOW: Of course.

BALDWIN: And a lot of them are like, well, it's a lot of older men in smoky rooms making a lot of the decisions still.

HARLOW: Still.

BALDWIN: Where we find the podcast?

HARLOW: ITunes. Wherever you get your podcasts. It's up this morning.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And it's called "Boss Files."

By the way, Fiorina is out with a new book called "Find Your Way, Unleash Your Power and Highest Potential."

And, again, you can hear her full conversation with Poppy on the "Boss Files" podcast. Thank you very much.

HARLOW: You got it.

BALDWIN: All right, coming up next, we will talk to one of President Trump's current primary challengers to weigh in on Fiorina's comments and the state of the Republican Party.

Former Republican Congressman Joe Walsh is here. We will talk to him live.

And pretty stunning remarks from Rudy Giuliani, admitting that he wanted to get the former Ukraine ambassador out in order to dig up dirt on the Bidens. A lot to talk about.

We will be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:00]