Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Americans are Split on Impeachment; Rep. Francis Rooney (R-FL) is Interviewed on Impeachment; Hungary Ambassador Raises Alarms among Diplomats. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 17, 2019 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:31:124]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: One day out from a full House vote on two articles of impeachment against the president and Americans are really divided.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. In fact, we're seeing support for impeachment declining in CNN's polling.

Joining us now, CNN politics reporter and editor at large Chris Cillizza.

Democrats placed a lot of faith in public hearings moving public sentiment on impeachment. Doesn't seem like we saw that.

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: No, that's right, Jim. So let's run through just a quick -- a couple things.

So, overall, 45 percent in our most recent poll, that's down 50 percent in the last two.

Now, again, in here, this is a lot of Mueller, right? I mean you have to separate, this is the Mueller report and Russia versus Ukraine. So a little bit apples to oranges there.

But these three matter, 50, 50, 45. There is a bit of a little decline.

Let's go and look by party because that's always, I think, helpful.

So this is totally fascinating. Democrats are the ones that have seen the biggest decline, 13 percent, just 2 percent independents. That's basically just statistical noise. Republicans, you know, a little bit, but they were never supportive of it.

Denny Heck was on our air earlier, Washington Democrat congressman who's retiring.

HARLOW: Yes.

CILLIZZA: And he said something really interesting, which is, even he has grown weary of this impeachment stuff and he thinks maybe Democratic voters are, too. Maybe that explains that number, although never totally sure.

Now, let's go to the broader -- the poll of polls that CNN does, which is essentially a look at all the polling we think is credible and serious on this question, which gives you a really good overview.

Senator Casey, Poppy, said, one poll, I don't put any trust in. So let's look at a lot of polls then.

Trump should be impeached, removed from office, 46 yes, 49 no. Again, a lot of that is about partisanship. You know, the -- it's just a very -- everything at this point is viewed through the lens of partisanship. You see these numbers, maybe 49, 46. This is statistical noise largely. Basically the country evenly divided on that question going into the vote tomorrow.

HARLOW: Yes.

So, Cillizza --

CILLIZZA: Yes.

HARLOW: Looking big picture here at the political implications for those in Congress, your piece was great last night laying out the facts of what we actually saw the last time a House moved to impeach a president back in '98, '99, Newt Gingrich thought that he would get -- his party would benefit, right, that he would get a net 40 seat gain.

CILLIZZA: That's exactly right.

HARLOW: It didn't. And it cost him his job.

CILLIZZA: Yes.

HARLOW: But there's a difference this time.

CILLIZZA: Yes, there is. I mean I'm old enough to remember that Newt Gingrich saying they're going to pick up 40 or 45 seats in the run-up to the '98 election, they lost five, they kept their majority, but Newt Gingrich was out because of it.

OK, there is a difference, Poppy. And I think we miss this a lot of times.

Jim is exactly right that impeachment support has dropped a little bit, down from 50 to 45. But, remember, 45 percent -- 45 percent support impeachment and removal of Donald Trump.

I asked your amazing producers to get these numbers, which is, where were these number with -- remember, Obama, Bush and Clinton, we all talked about impeachment. Clinton was impeached.

Let's just go to Clinton, because that's the one we talk about.

Twenty -- in September 1998, 29 percent of people thought he should be impeached and removed from office. Reminder, 45 percent of people think that way about Donald Trump. So, yes, it is down, but it is down from half the country, right? This

number really never got all that high, and it rebounded back very badly on Republicans. So if you're a Democrat and we saw lots of them -- moderate Democrats yesterday come out in support of these impeachment articles, people in Trump districts, this number and the 45 percent number, that's a thing you're going to highlight and say this is not that.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Right.

HARLOW: There you go. Thanks for your brain, Cillizza. We always appreciate it.

CILLIZZA: Ah, well, it's in there, I might as well use it.

[09:35:00]

HARLOW: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: More than 20 House Republicans are retiring at the end of this term, compared with about six Democrats. But will any of those retirees break from the party on impeachment?

Let's speak to Republican Congressman Francis Rooney of Florida.

[09:40:01]

He is one of them.

Congressman, we appreciate you taking the time this morning.

REP. FRANCIS ROONEY (R-FL): Thank you very much for having me.

SCIUTTO: On this broadcast, you said two months ago that your mind at that point was still at least open on the question of impeachment. As the House heads towards a vote, I wonder, is that still the case or have you made up your mind to vote no?

ROONEY: Well, I think I've gone from being open and wanting to hear all the facts to being extremely frustrated and disappointed that the Democrat process didn't slow down, didn't get the primary sources, didn't fight executive privilege and do it like Congressman Rodino did Watergate and build a kind of national consensus it takes to succeed, if that's what they want to do.

SCIUTTO: Well, as you know, the White House obstructed here, right? They refused for these key witnesses to testify. They refused to submit emails, other communications. Is that on the White House or is that on Democrats?

ROONEY: Well, that's something I'm going to try to get one final answer on today, speaking to a couple of ex-White House counsels that are friends of mine.

But I'm not sure you can obstruct if you're claiming executive privilege until that's been litigated. Then if you don't do it, you're obstructing. But I'm not 100 percent sure about that. I need to find out today.

SCIUTTO: OK. Question, as you know, on the Senate side, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer has asked the majority leader, Mitch McConnell, to call some of the witnesses that you yourself have said in a statement should testify, including Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, former National Security Adviser John Bolton, who had direct knowledge of these decisions and the president's involvement there.

Should McConnell accept Schumer's request for these witnesses to testify if they are, in your view, key to getting the facts here?

ROONEY: I definitely think he should. I think the difference with the Clinton impeachment was those witnesses that already testified on the House side of things, kind of like the Nixon one, and they aren't going to have to do that now, so they might as well get them over there.

SCIUTTO: As we're speaking, as the House is moving towards this impeachment vote, the president's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, has returned from the Ukraine. He's met with some individuals there, some of whom have questionable backgrounds and credibility, one of whom is a pro-Russian lawmaker who has studied with the KGB, gathering more information that he has said will be damaging to President Trump's political rivals here.

I wonder, as an American, as you watch this, are we seeing a sitting candidate now illicit foreign interference in an election once again?

ROONEY: Well, I think what was in the article about Giuliani today is extremely disturbing. And I think one of the -- and it argues again for slowing down, putting these guys under the threat of perjury under oath and testify and find out, what's all the things he was doing over there? Why was he so interested in getting Ambassador Yovanovitch anyway?

SCIUTTO: Yes. And you've seen him attacking Ambassador Yovanovitch. To your credit, you have defended the ambassador in your past public comments.

I wonder, as we look forward here, because you and many of your colleagues have talked about impeachment being such a solemn process. You know, sort of an emergency tool you use only in the most unique circumstances here. I just wonder, what do you think the lesson here for future Democratic or Republican presidents is in response to impeachment as -- as they -- they saw President Trump refuse to cooperate, refuse House subpoenas? Do you think that's a dangerous precedent going forward?

ROONEY: Well, I think both ways are a dangerous precedent. It's dangerous precedent to rush to impeachment without doing a full-blown Watergate process. It was a bad process when they did it with President Clinton. And the whole process seems to be becoming degraded, just like a lot of processes around here continue to become degraded.

Remember when Jim Schlesinger, or Arthur Schlesinger wrote the book "The Imperial Presidency" in 1973, what a quaint era that was compared to the limited authority of Congress right now.

SCIUTTO: You have been willing to raise questions, not just about the Democrats, but the Republicans' participation in this. I wonder, as you've been watching these proceedings, one thing that has struck me is, is how often falsehoods have been repeated. One, for instance, is that the Ukrainians did not know that the aid was delayed when, in fact, there was sworn testimony from DOD official Laura Cooper that she was getting questions about this back in July from Ukrainian contacts here.

What do you say to Republican colleagues who may have heard that very testimony, who seem to ignore it?

ROONEY: That's part of what I said to you and Poppy a while back that I wanted to wait and get all the facts. I was disturbed by kind of -- after the -- pre-factual judgment about a lot of this stuff. No intel people on our side of things have corroborated any Ukraine influence in the 2016 campaign.

SCIUTTO: Well, it's good to hear you make that declarative statement because that is a fact and it's one that often gets lost in the back and forth.

Congressman, we appreciate you taking the time this morning and taking the hard questions.

ROONEY: Thank you for having me on.

[09:45:00]

SCIUTTO: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: The current U.S. ambassador to Hungary is a political appointee of President Trump with no diplomatic experience, but that is not the only cause for concern.

HARLOW: That's right. Our chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It was an independence day to remember, hosted by one of President Trump's oldest friends, the U.S. ambassador to Hungary, David Cornstein.

[09:50:09]

Like the president, Cornstein enjoys putting on a show.

Singer Paul Anka was flown in to serenade the guest of honor, Hungary's far right authoritarian leader Viktor Orban.

DAVID B. CORNSTEIN, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO HUNGARY: And it is my distinct pleasure and my great honor to introduce my partner and my friend, the prime minister of Hungary, our guest of honor, Viktor Orban.

WARD: Four years ago, such a fawning display would have been unthinkable. But under President Trump, the U.S./Hungarian relationship is blossoming once again.

And that's in no small part due to the appointment of Ambassador David Cornstein, an 81-year-old jewelry magnet from New York City with no relevant political experience beyond a decade's old friendship with the president.

CORNSTEIN: I became a diplomat. Who the hell would have figured that? I became a diplomat.

WARD: Political appointees on both sides of the aisle are often inexperienced and sometimes ineffective, but Cornstein has a direct line of communication with the president. He was instrumental in arranging a White House visit for Orban despite protests from both parties.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Probably like me a little bit controversial, but that's OK. That's OK. You've done a good job.

WARD: One of Orban's many controversial moves has been to force the U.S. accredited graduate school, Central European University, founded and funded by George Soros, out of Hungary. CEU President Michael Ignatieff says that while Cornstein publicly vowed to help the university in its dispute, privately he quickly capitulated to Orban.

WARD (on camera): Why would he be unwilling to push for an issue that's so clearly in Americans interests?

MICHAEL IGNATIEFF, PRESIDENT, CENTRAL EUROPEAN UNIVERSITY (CEU): I don't understand, to tell you the truth. But somehow I think Mr. Cornstein began to think, huh, this is a liberal institution. I'm closer to a conservative like Orban than I am to the ideals of the institution. And what's disturbing about that is that shouldn't be the issue.

WARD (voice over): For the government here, his appointment has been a gift, bringing Hungary back into the U.S.' good books while appearing to demand no real concessions.

ZOLTAN KOVACS, HUNGARY SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL COMMUNICATION AND RELATIONS: For the past two years, since the coming of the new ambassador, we believe it's a new chapter we have opened. The previous chapter was unnecessary burden with the kind of ideological debates and pressure that was coming from the Democrats and was basically derailing U.S.-Hungarian relationships. WARD: Cornstein's office declined a CNN request for an interview,

citing the ambassador's busy schedule. But when by chance we bumped into him at a Budapest restaurant, he sat with us and let us ask a couple of questions on our cell phones.

WARD (on camera): What do you say to people who say that you're too friendly with Prime Minister Orban? What's your response to that?

CORNSTEIN: My response is the same as if you asked me about my relationship with my wife. We're married 50 years, and we have a good relationship, but we have our days where they're not so good and we disagree upon certain things. The same thing is true with the prime minister.

WARD: But that's a close relationship then?

CORNSTEIN: It's -- it's a good relationship where we have established the trust with each other and where I can tell him where I think he's making a mistake with what he's doing in a respectful manner.

WARD (voice over): Ambassador Cornstein soon asked us to stop recording, but off camera we asked him about his recent dinner here with Rudy Giuliani.

WARD (on camera): He would only say that the men are close personal friends, and that he hadn't even asked Giuliani about the purpose of his visit here.

Throughout the conversation, though, Cornstein seemed unfazed by criticism that has come his way. He told us simply, I report to one man only, and that is the president of the United States. And so far nobody has told me they don't like the results of what I'm doing.

WARD (voice over): Privately, though, some fear that the ambassador's actions undermine American interests here and that Trump's disregard for diplomatic norms could deal a blow that will last much longer than Cornstein's tenure and have repercussions far beyond Hungary.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WARD: When you talk to Cornstein, you really get the sense that he's modeled himself on President Trump, that he values his business acumen, cultivating personal relationships much more than traditional diplomatic norms.

[09:55:06]

And like the president, Jim and Poppy, he also loves to play golf. We asked him where he will be for the holidays. He told us in Palm Beach spending time with the president.

SCIUTTO: Well, and Viktor Orban, I mean, a lot to be learned about what a -- I don't know if authoritarian's too strong, but not a friendly person in charge there.

Clarissa Ward, thanks very much. HARLOW: Thanks, Clarissa.

SCIUTTO: House lawmakers are about to take the next step in impeachment. A critical hearing starts shortly ahead of tomorrow's historic vote.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:00]