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Nancy Pelosi Doesn't Commit to Sending Impeachment Articles to Senate; Trump Attacks Representative Debbie Dingell and Late Husband; Source: Pelosi and Schumer to Meet Today on Impeachment; McConnell Calls Impeachment "Most Unfair" in Modern History; Democrats Impeach President Trump for Abuse of Power and Obstruction of Congress. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 19, 2019 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:20]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. It's a big day. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

The breaking news this morning. Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell is about to speak for the first time since the House voted to impeach President Trump. The third U.S. president to face that. He plans to slam House Democrats arguing they made history not for the vote itself but for what he calls the unfair process leading up to it. Those words will land as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi potentially throws the Senate trial schedule off.

HARLOW: That's right. So she is still not committing to sending the articles of impeachment to the Senate until she says that she and the caucus are assured of a fair trial. So what does that exactly mean? We'll learn more when she speaks live next hour. But let's get straight to Manu Raju.

And Manu, it was your exchange with her just after 9:00 last night that made all of this news. It seemed like watching it in the moment, you couldn't believe what she was saying, but she said it.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it was surprising because there had been some pressure behind the scenes from some members, including a Democrat from Oregon, Earl Blumenauer, who brought it up with her directly, urging her to withhold those articles, not send them over to the Senate, because of the argument that they could use it presumably as leverage to try to get the Senate to do a fair trial.

Now Blumenauer told me yesterday that she was interested in it but all day long her office was not commenting about what her exact plans were so it was a surprise when she said that they were going to -- that she did not shut the door to potentially never sending over the articles of impeachment or at the very least wait a few weeks before that could actually begin a Senate trial. The question ultimately is how does that play out? We do know that

Mitch McConnell is going to go to the floor in just a matter of minutes. Blast the House Democrats' process and try to accuse the House speaker of being too afraid to send over the articles of impeachment. We'll see how that changes the calculation if at all because McConnell as we know has said there would be no live witnesses, at least not right now, in a Senate trial.

But the discussion will have to be on the Democratic side exactly how they want to pursue this. Nancy Pelosi is meeting with Chuck Schumer later today. She's meeting with her caucus a little bit later this morning. Also expect more meetings through the course of the day. So this is going to be a story that's going to develop as the Democrats ultimately decide what their strategy is on their end game because if Mitch McConnell doesn't move and Nancy Pelosi doesn't move, then who blinks first and does that mean there will be no Senate trial? Those are all some major questions looming over the president and over Congress.

SCIUTTO: But, Manu, is the question of witnesses in the Senate trial really closed here? Because it is majority rule. Is it possible Democrats there could get a handful of Republicans to agree with them that some of these witnesses need to be called or can McConnell just block that from even being considered?

RAJU: Yes, it's a two-step process. First, Mitch McConnell has to cut a deal with Chuck Schumer over exactly how the rules of the process, the trial will play out. And that's basic bookkeeping stuff. But what the Democrats are pushing for in that rules package is to detail the witnesses and the documents to be turned over. Now Mitch McConnell has said no to that. So they'll first cut a deal just on general rules and then assuming they do that, then that's when the votes -- when the trial would take place.

Then there would be votes on the floor that any senator could move to try to force a vote and that's when the majority will rule. 51 senators can compel any witness to come forward and testify. And that's where four Republicans if they were to break ranks and side with Democrats, that could change the calculus. But right now most Republicans, those ones who could flip, are keeping their cards close. They're not saying what they will do. So this will play out in a matter of weeks how they'll ultimately will shape out. But at the moment Mitch McConnell saying no, of course.

SCIUTTO: And we should note in the Clinton impeachment, new witnesses were deposed in the Senate trial. Some sitting senators called for that. Supported it at the time, including Lindsey Graham.

Let's bring in CNN senior political reporter Nia-Malika Henderson as well.

Nia-Malika, if I could begin with you, cost benefits of a potential delay of moving these articles over to the Senate from the House.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I think sort of the cost is that it essentially feeds into what the Republican talking points are about this to begin with, which is that it's political, that it's partisan.

SCIUTTO: Right.

HENDERSON: And also I think undermines Pelosi's standing as an institutionalist, right? Somebody who wants to go by the rules. Someone who has been arguing that this is something of urgent concern which is the -- which is why the timeline has been what it is.

[09:05:02]

Hard to really see what the benefits necessarily are. Sort of dragging it out a bit here. It doesn't appear to me that she has any real leverage with Mitch McConnell. I mean, has Mitch -- have you met Mitch McConnell? I mean, he's someone who clearly has said that he is not going to be an impartial juror here and he's also working with the president very closely. So it's hard to know.

I mean, I do think there are folks in her caucus who want something of a delay so she can throw a bone to them, but it's hard to imagine what the real benefits of this are.

HARLOW: So, guys, listen to Majority Whip Jim Clyburn. He was just on "NEW DAY." Listen to what he said about, you know, how indefinite this could be and how supportive he is of this move.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Are you willing to hold the articles indefinitely if Mitch McConnell doesn't concede the points that you're asking him to? Are you suggesting it's possible you will never transmit the articles of impeachment?

REP. JIM CLYBURN (D-SC): If it were me, yes, that's what I'm saying. I have no idea what the speaker will do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Whoa, Manu, that would be unprecedented. And I wonder if it would politically, optically be very difficult for many Democrats who said this is urgent that we move forward with impeachment against the president and then they stop moving forward.

RAJU: Yes, that's going to be the message they're going to have to reconcile. How do they handle that? How do they not move forward on an impeachment. Not move forward on impeachment. They said the president represents a clear and present danger. We'll see what the speaker has to say right here.

Speaker Pelosi, is it still possible you may never send over the articles --

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): We'll meet together at 10:45.

RAJU: She said we'll be -- she said we'll be together at 10:45.

(LAUGHTER) RAJU: Referring to the press conference that she has later this morning. She's now walking in to her caucus meetings. So clearly didn't want to answer questions there, but we'll see. She's, of course, going to have to field those questions at the press conference and we'll get a sense about whether she can provide any more clarity. But the fact that Clyburn said that was interesting but ultimately it is her decision, Nancy Pelosi. She's the one who's going to make the call about how long to hold on to the articles and whether to submit them at all to the Senate. Most people think they'll ultimately be sent over. It's just a matter of when. We'll see what she has to say about it, guys,

SCIUTTO: Listen, I get the process argument here and that's become the central Republican defense here, but Nia-Malika, is it politically damaging for Republicans, including McConnell or Graham who said this, I'm not going to be a partial juror, even though the text of the oath that they state at the start of a Senate trial as prescribed by the founders says, you know, we will do impartial justice here. Are there not political risks for Republicans?

HENDERSON: It isn't great I think for Mitch McConnell but what's interesting is once the sort of reports about this Ukraine issue came out, one of the first things that Mitch McConnell said was that him being in the Senate was essentially him being a backstop for the president and any sort of impeachment hearing. So for a while, he has telegraphed that he isn't going to be an impartial juror.

You have had some Democrats call for his impeachment. People like Elizabeth Warren, Amy Klobuchar has played it a little closer to the vest saying that she -- you know, she is going to be a juror so she doesn't necessarily want to speak out on it. But I think you're right. It does cloud this whole process. It probably wasn't a good thing for Mitch McConnell to just outright say, A, that he's going to be a partisan juror, and that he's working hand in glove with the president.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, Manu and Nia-Malika, stay with us. Certainly more to discuss. Poppy?

HARLOW: Yes. We certainly do because of part of what the president said last night at his rally. At the same time that the House was voting to impeach him, the president was unleashing at this rally in Michigan. And he targeted Michigan Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell and her late husband, Congressman John Dingell, who was the longest serving member of Congress and a World War II veteran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So she calls me up like eight months ago. Her husband was there a long time. But I didn't give him the B treatment. I didn't give him the C or the D. I could have. She calls me up. It's the nicest thing that's ever happened. Thank you so much. John would be so thrilled. He's looking down. He'd be so thrilled. I said, that's OK. Don't worry about it. Maybe he's looking up. I don't know.

(LAUGHTER AND CHEERS)

TRUMP: I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right. Some audible groans but also some cheers and laughter. That's cruel. This morning Congresswoman Dingell responded on "NEW DAY."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): I don't want to politicize my husband. I don't want to politicize his death. It is still something that I'm really grieving over. This Thanksgiving was really hard and Christmas is harder. And I'm going to go back to doing my job.

[09:10:03]

If he thinks he's going to keep me from doing my job, I'm going to be right back at it when I leave here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: You know, Michigan Republican Congressman Fred Upton called for an apology, tweeting, "I always looked up to John Dingell, my good friend and great Michigan legend. There was no need to dis him in a crass political way. Most unfortunate and an apology due." That message to the president this morning. The White House defense, listen to press secretary Stephanie Grisham.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He was at a political rally. He has been under attack and under impeachment attack for the last few months and then just under attack politically for the last 2 1/2 years. I think that, as we all know, the president is a counterpuncher. It was a very, very supportive and wild crowd, and he was just riffing on some of the things that had been happening the past few days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right. Let's look at this in terms of how the history books will judge it. CNN presidential historian Douglas Brinkley is with me.

Good morning to you, Douglas.

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Good morning, guys.

HARLOW: I mean, this is a revered member of Congress. You heard what Republican Congressman Fred Upton had to say. Longest serving, a moderate, beloved nationally and certainly in his home state of Michigan. How will history judge what the president chose to say last night? BRINKLEY: It's going to show once again how Donald Trump is -- Donald

Trump is shameless. You know, Dingell, in Michigan, did more for Lake Michigan and wildlife conservation. He was known for encouraging tourism in Michigan. He was one of the most loved political figures ever in Michigan. And the fact that Donald Trump said such a crass and ugly comment, it's not going to sit well. And I think the Democrats will probably take commercial ads in Michigan just running Donald Trump's battle creek insults. And I'm sorry that Debbie Dingell had to put up with that. It's a -- it's a shame.

HARLOW: Yes. I mean, when you think about how presidents have handled the toughest moments of their presidencies before, have there been personal attacks like this on dead, revered members of Congress?

BRINKLEY: And a veteran.

HARLOW: Yes.

BRINKLEY: The veterans of the United States should be livid right now. Veterans have to protect their own. They were angry when Donald Trump dissed John McCain and did the same trick going after dead veterans when President Trump himself was a -- you know, avoided service due to bone spurs during the Vietnam War. So if I were President Trump, I would issue an immediate apology. Call it a joke that went sideways. No disrespect to Debbie Dingell and certainly not to John Dingell, but he is a little man, and I'm afraid he's unable to make that kind of apology that any other politician in America would make.

HARLOW: You could just feel Congresswoman Dingell's -- you know, politics aside, you could feel her pain hearing her this morning with Alisyn and also in her tweet last night. Still trying to grieve the loss of her beloved husband.

But, Doug, just before you go, I do want your read on what we saw, the historic night, the historic vote last night on impeachment. Because earlier this week you gave Speaker Pelosi an A-plus for the job she is doing. I wonder if she keeps an A-plus in your book right now given the development last night that she signaled she may hold off -- I don't know how long, indefinitely -- on handing over these articles of impeachment to the Senate so that the constitutional process can play out.

BRINKLEY: Well, we'll see at 10:45 what her chess move is here right now. I think Nancy Pelosi's just trying to put a spotlight on Mitch McConnell and the fact that he's already made up his mind that he's going to be a stark partisan. I think she wants to show people that the Senate trial is unfair. And so she's ratcheting up the rhetoric on that. I think Democrats have to follow the great poet Robert Frost. He used to say the only way out is through. Only way out of this impeachment process is going through it. And that means the Senate trial, even if it's an imperfect one.

HARLOW: There you go. Context, history, important in all of this.

Douglas Brinkley, we appreciate you this morning. Thank you so much. BRINKLEY: Thank you, Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Noting the history there. And there's a lot of it. Speaker Pelosi and Senate Democrat -- Democratic leader Chuck Schumer set to meet today to talk next steps. And in minutes, we may get a clear idea of the Republican strategy. Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell will give his first public comments since that impeachment vote just ahead. And Schumer set to speak not long after McConnell.

HARLOW: Also, Democratic candidates gearing up for the final debate of the year. It is the smallest group on stage yet, which means, you know, you'll get to hear a little bit more from each of them. Does that open the door for more pointed attacks as well, though?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. The top two Democrats are set to discuss the party's next move in the wake of President Trump's impeachment. A source confirmed that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority leader Chuck Schumer are expected to meet at some point this morning. And just minutes from now, we will hear from Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell, according to a GOP aide.

McConnell is expected to call this impeachment process in his words, quote, "the most rushed, least thorough and most unfair in modern history." I'm pleased now to be joined by Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois who also serves as Senate Minority whip. Senator, thank you for taking the time this morning?

[09:20:00]

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Good to be with you.

SCIUTTO: So Democrats, as you know, have consistently said this is an urgent matter. Now, you have consideration of holding off, moving those articles to the Senate from the house. Is that a mistake?

DURBIN: Well, I don't want to anticipate what the speaker is going to say about the timetable ahead of her. The last time this occurred some 20 years ago with the Clinton impeachment, we were going through a little different circumstance between the house action and Senate action, there was an actual change in Congress.

There had been an election and new members of Congress arrived on the scene. Still, it took several days to transmit that. I don't -- I don't know what Speaker Pelosi's plans are in terms of transmitting the articles of impeachment to the Senate. I hope we can work that out today.

SCIUTTO: Would you oppose a decision to refuse to transmit those articles?

DURBIN: Well, I'm not going to anticipate possibilities here. I think Speaker Pelosi has followed the constitution carefully, and had a very -- from my point of view a very thoughtful proceeding that led us to this point. I am sure she's going to continue in that vein.

SCIUTTO: I want to tell you what one GOP senator told CNN. I'm quoting here, "if the speaker thinks this magically gives Democrats leverage in the Senate, she hasn't been paying attention to how McConnell operates the last few decades." You spend a lot of time in that chamber with Senator McConnell. Are you concerned that Democrats might overplay leverage here?

DURBIN: No, I think you're way ahead of the actual reality on the ground here. I am concerned that we've reached a point where we're in the Senate session for the last day of this year, I believe will be today.

SCIUTTO: Right --

DURBIN: And as of this particular moment, there's not been a meeting on the subject between Mr. McConnell -- Senator McConnell and Senator Schumer. That should have taken place by now. I know that Senator Schumer has made some suggestions and Senator McConnell, their meeting is important.

SCIUTTO: As you know, lawmakers have occasionally contradicted themselves on things they've said about the impeachment process in the current environment, and 20 years ago, the last time we faced this with Bill Clinton. I want to play one of your colleague's, now Senator Lindsey Graham who of course was a member of the house in '98- '99. Have a listen, I want to get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): America needs to hear about this case before they vote in some reasonable fashion. That's not too much to ask. They're going to vote through courage, have the courage to let the American people know, not just from sound bites and spinmeisters what this case is about.

They need to have the witness called or play what happened today, that needs to be done for everybody to understand what this case is about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Now, let's play him more recently, talking about the current possibility of a Senate trial.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAHAM: I am not going to support witnesses being called for by the president. I'm not going to support witnesses being called for by Senator Schumer. We're going to vote on the same product the house used.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Obviously, a difference there. I wonder, in private conversations, have any of your GOP colleagues said that they would support calling witnesses? You would only need a handful to join with Democrats in a simple majority vote to call for witness testimony.

DURBIN: I haven't asked them, but I'll tell you this. The American people expect us to do this in a dignified way. It is a trial under the constitution. And in a trial, you consider evidence. Evidence includes not only documents, but testimony from witnesses. In this circumstance, there were 17 who appeared before the House Intelligence Committee that led to their conclusion yesterday in the House of Representatives.

Keep in mind that unlike previous presidents, this president and his White House have refused to share evidence as requested and subpoenaed by the House of Representatives. So, to ask for some basic information from someone as near to the issues as Mick Mulvaney; the president's acting Chief of Staff, is not unreasonable.

The American people expect us to be respectful and to follow the law, and to have a trial and come to a conclusion and do it in an open and public manner.

SCIUTTO: According to a CNN poll just out this week, that we've seen this in other polls as well, public support for impeachment has not grown, following public hearings as some Democrats -- and I said on this broadcast before, they had hoped. This is the CNN poll, public support for his impeachment and removal from office down to 45 percent from 50 percent.

And you see similar data in other polling there. Does that indicate to you that Democrats failed to make their case convincingly to the American public?

[09:25:00]

DURBIN: Listen, you and I live and breathe politics, but most Americans don't. You'll find 30 percent to 40 percent of Americans really are not following this very closely. That may change when the Senate trial starts. But let me say the bottom line is this. We shouldn't be measuring this on political impact as to whether we go forward. Shame on us if we do.

We have a responsibility under the constitution to take this seriously, to measure the evidence that has been presented and decide whether this president should be impeached. The polls be damned. Let's do our job and do it according to the constitution.

SCIUTTO: Well, the polls be damned, and I appreciate your commitment to following the process regardless, but you do have an election in 11 months time. Are you concerned that voters who consistently rank impeachment low on their list of voting issues in this election, long after health care, jobs, et cetera. Are you concerned that voters will extract a political price from Democrats in November 2020?

DURBIN: Listen, the constitution has to be honored. I took an oath to defend it. And there will be another oath administered incidentally to every senator pledging that each of us will be committed to impartial justice. That's in the oath. Let's do that job and get it right. And in terms of the political fallout one way or the other, let the

American people make that decision.

SCIUTTO: Just very quickly, when Senator McConnell and Graham and others say that they have no plans to be impartial jurors here, despite the oath that they must take prior to a Senate trial, are they violating their constitutional oath by making such a statement?

DURBIN: Well, keep an eye on their hands when they raise them as to whether their fingers are crossed when they take that oath. Some of them have made announcements that they don't care what the evidence shows, and they don't care what happens during the course of a trial.

They're going to vote one way or the other. Now, let's be honest. Democrats and Republicans lean in a political direction going into this. But if you're going to take that oath and really mean it, so help me God, then you've got to take a look at the evidence in an honest fashion.

SCIUTTO: Senator Dick Durbin, we appreciate you joining the broadcast this morning.

DURBIN: Thank you.

POPPY HARLOW, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: All right. We are waiting to hear live right here from Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell. He is expected to call the impeachment inquiry now wrapped up in the house, "the most rushed, least thorough, most unfair in modern history." That's his take. Then, we'll probably hear from Schumer after that, hear what he has to say. You'll see it all live right here.

We're also moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. The Dow struggling a little bit to take off. It looks like at the start of trading in a few minutes. Investors searching for some direction here ahead of the holiday week. They, of course, are keeping a constant eye on Capitol Hill with the impeachment vote in the house now over.

The house is set to vote today on that trade deal, USMCA, between the U.S., Mexico and Canada. The deal must also be approved by the Senate which won't happen until after an impeachment trial in the new year and then signed by the president.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END