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Nancy Pelosi Holds Up Senate Impeachment Transfer; Seven to Take Stage at Democratic Debate Tonight; Interview with Rep. Mike Johnson (R-LA). Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired December 19, 2019 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: -- consistent, Kaitlan Collins, with Republicans' but also the president's strategy so far, is to attack the process.

But also interesting, I think we should note this, that McConnell also attacked the witnesses. He called them unelected civil servants, which has been a consistent attack line, not just from Republicans, but from the president as well.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And he didn't defend the president's conduct, but he did try to dismiss the stonewalling you've seen from the White House, not allowing these witnesses, the one witness -- or the few witnesses that they want to go testify, or that document turnover.

Saying essentially that he couldn't believe that they were impeaching the president and wanted to go to this Senate trial over something that he called fairly routine, though of course this is a very high level of stonewalling that you're seeing from the administration over sending these witnesses, despite the president saying that he would like to send them.

Of course, they have not gone, they have not testified as the White House is making that argument about no direct ties to the president, when they won't let the people who do know about the direct ties, go and testify.

But it is interesting to see how McConnell and Schumer are presenting these dueling visions of what's going to happen, that we're not getting a lot of light shed on what's going to happen and when those articles of impeachment are actually going to be transmitted.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Manu, I know we're hearing from Pelosi in 15 minutes, so she'll hopefully tell us then. But do you have any intel on -- is her demand at this point, I am not going to transfer these articles to the Senate until you agree to witness testimony from these four witnesses that Schumer has called eminently reasonable?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: She has not explicitly said so. She didn't say so last night in press conference, and apparently didn't -- she just had a meeting with her caucus, and she did not explicitly say so there, according to a number of members and according to the Judiciary chairman, Jerry Nadler. He wouldn't say explicitly on what -- what the ultimate demand is.

They're all -- he said it was up to the speaker, and that's the same message from the House majority leader, Steny Hoyer, the number two here in the House Democratic Caucus. He said that that's ultimately the speaker's decision. So it is her call exactly when to transmit those articles to the Senate.

Now, I can tell you that there is an expectation, though, that they ultimately will be delivered. Now, Jerry Nadler told me, quote, "In due course," they'll be sent over to the Senate. He said he did not think they would be held on (ph), quote, "forever."

Also in a key sign, one freshman Democratic member, Elissa Slotkin, said while -- she told me that while it's reasonable to ask for a fair process, she said she did not want it to, quote, "drag on forever." She said that would be, quote, "not good" if it did just that.

So that's a sign that while this is a bit of a negotiation, there's going to be room that the caucus will give Pelosi to do what they think is best. It probably won't be forever, and Pelosi probably knows just that. So that's why I think we can probably expect there to be a Senate trial. It's just a matter of -- it's just a matter of when that will actually happen.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And there is a natural break here, of course, because of the holidays. Manu Raju, Nia-Malika Henderson, Kaitlan Collins, thanks to all of you.

[10:33:01]

Still to come in just minutes, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, she'll face questions from reporters. What will she say about sending those articles of impeachment to the Senate, and when?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. Well, tonight, the smallest group of Democratic candidates will meet for the final primary debate of the year. Seven candidates will try to leave their mark on you, the voters, as we enter the election year.

SCIUTTO: Yes. You might be able to hear more from each of them.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Back in Washington, though, the ripple effects of the dramatic impeachment vote should play an important role in the race, the debate. Candidates will be asked about it.

Joining us now, CNN political correspondent M.J. Lee and CNN political commentator Paul Begala. Good morning to both of you.

Paul, you've watched a lot of debates in your time. A smaller field, does that set up important one-on-one matchups here, maybe some clashes? I mean, certainly, other candidates, not always with great success, have tried to use the podium to attack the frontrunners. Where do you see the matchups here?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there's been increasing tension between Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg, for example. Warren, you know, more progressive, Buttigieg, more moderate. And they've been attacking each other, you know, from a distance. Now they're going to be on the stage right next to each other.

It's just a really important moment for these Democrats. We're 47 days, now, from the Iowa caucuses, and this is the last debate before the holiday break. And you know, I've spent a lot of time in Iowa, and Iowans, over that Christmas break before their caucus, that's when they first really start to make their decisions. Everything else, I think, has been, you know, a preamble. But this will set the holiday conversation around a whole lot of Iowa dinner tables over Christmas.

SCIUTTO: Sure.

HARLOW: There you go. That's -- picture much of my childhood, now, around Iowa dinner tables.

M.J. Lee, you had a great piece last week, a deep dive into Elizabeth Warren and sort of her mindset now, not only talking about how she has been increasingly taking on her Democratic rivals -- more pointedly, more directly -- but also making it very clear to everyone who didn't realize it, that after Senator Harris dropped out of the race, she is the only female at least leading in the polls who's going to be on that stage tonight. Klobuchar on the stage, but she's polling lower than Warren.

Do you have any sense of how we're going to see that manifest on the stage tonight?

[10:40:08]

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I think that we've seen her, over the last couple of weeks, do some things a little differently, right? And one of the things is what Paul just said. She has been on the attack more than we have ever seen her before.

You know, most of this year, she has really declined to go after her rivals directly, explicitly, by name. Only a handful of times -- I could count on one hand, the number of times she has done that all year -- but more recently, she has gone after Pete Buttigieg. And I think it is a sign that she has been feeling the heat from this candidate.

As her poll numbers have dipped a little bit, his have been on the rise, especially in the early states. And I think she and her allies recognize that there's a lot of overlap between the supporters of Elizabeth Warren and the supporters of Pete Buttigieg, even though we often talk about them as being ideologically different --

HARLOW: Yes.

LEE: -- the base is shared. SCIUTTO: So, Paul, new CNN polling today showing the race, still a familiar pattern here. Joe Biden in the lead, down a little bit but not statistically dramatically, a couple points from November. Sanders and Warren right behind him there.

And this other one struck me, too. Favorable opinion of Joe Biden, changed from October to now from 74 percent to 67. Sixty-seven's pretty high still. And it's down, but I wonder if Joe Biden should take comfort, both from maintaining that lead but also that with all these attacks from the president in the last several weeks and months, that he still keeps a pretty high favorability rating, two out of three voters.

BEGALA: I think that's right. I think that's what Biden ought to do. He ought to stand up and wear these attacks from Donald Trump as a badge of honor. You know, in the impeachment debate yesterday -- I watched every minute of it, my eyeballs were bleeding -- they probably mentioned Joe Biden as often as they mentioned President Trump.

And I think -- I think Joe, for Democrats, should wear that as a badge of honor. He should say, no matter who we nominate, they're going to lie about them. I'm the one who's already proven I can take it.

It is interesting to look at that poll, Jim. On the day he announced, Joe Biden was at 28. Today, he's at 26, after all the slings and arrows, after all the ups and downs. His support is far more resilient than -- than a lot of people thought it might be. He's been a remarkably tough candidate, and I think a lot of people -- myself included -- were concerned from the beginning that he was going to slip and fall, and there he is, right where he was when he began the race.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: M.J., another polling number that stood out to us in these -- in this new poll is that those Democrats that are very satisfied with their choices, essentially, it's down. I mean, and it's not even high either in June at 38 percent or now at 31 percent. What does that mean for the party's chances in 2020?

LEE: Look, I think it means that the race remains fluid even though the Iowa caucuses feel so close now, you can really feel that this is just now weeks away. The race remains fluid, and this is reflected in the many voter conversations that myself and my colleagues have had in some of these early states.

A lot of voters go to these campaign events hosted by certain candidates but they will say, look, I think that I probably may not make up my decision until we are a lot closer to actual voting time, and I'm interested in multiple candidates. That has been a consistent theme that we have seen as we have talked to these voters.

I will also say, you know, the debate stage is a lot smaller tonight. For the first time, we're seeing just seven people. I think we shouldn't overstate the ability for a candidate to have this breakout moment and really drastically change the trajectory of the race. HARLOW: Yes.

LEE: Because you know who else -- who had some good debate moments recently? Are Julian Castro and Corey Booker. Guess who is not going to be on the debate stage tonight --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

LEE: -- both of those candidates.

HARLOW: Right, yes. No, that's a really good point. And people are looking at Senator Klobuchar, I think, a lot tonight --

BEGALA: Right.

HARLOW: -- who has sort of come more into her own as the debates have progressed, and what are we going to see from her tonight and will it make a difference or not, as you point out, M.J.

Thank you guys.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: She's only got three nationally, but I think --

HARLOW: Yes.

BEGALA: -- M.J.'s -- that's why M.J.'s coverage has been indispensable. I think she is poised to make a move.

I would note that 30 days before the Iowa caucuses in 2004, John Kerry was very weak, sixth place, and then he won.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: All right. Got to leave it there. M.J. is indispensable to us. Thank you both very, very much and happy holidays if we don't see you before.

The PBS NewsHour-Politico-Democratic presidential debate, it airs right here on CNN and on your local PBS station tonight, 8:00 p.m. Eastern.

[10:44:44]

Up next, a Republican lawmaker who is right now reportedly in talks with the White House, possibly serve as the president's defense during a Senate trial? Ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: We're now just minutes away from hearing from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Will she address when she might send articles of impeachment on to the Senate? We will soon see. For now, according to a source, my next guest is in talks to possibly be on the president's defense team during a Senate trial. With me now, Republican Congressman Mike Johnson of Louisiana.

Congressman, we appreciate you taking the time this morning.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Hey, Jim. Great to be with you.

SCIUTTO: So it's our understanding that you met with White House Counsel Pat Cipollone yesterday along with Representative Jim Jordan and John Ratcliffe, under consideration to be on the president's defense team. Is that accurate? And would you accept such a role?

[10:50:07]

JOHNSON: You know, I'm really not at liberty to talk about that. I would be delighted to serve on the defense team. I feel very strongly in the president's case, and if he asked me to serve in that capacity, I certainly would but --

SCIUTTO: OK.

JOHNSON: -- there's really -- I don't have much more to talk about it this morning.

SCIUTTO: OK. You heard the Senate majority leader make his case to the floor, and you know that he is opposing any witnesses being called during a Senate trial. I want to play the Senate majority leader, 20 years ago, on CNN when a Democratic president faced impeachment, his position on witnesses in a Senate trial then, and then get your reaction. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Every other impeachment has had witnesses, it's not unusual to have witnesses in a trial. And I think we're handling this in exactly the appropriate way under the Constitution, and it will end soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Why were Republicans in favor of witnesses in a Senate trial when a Democratic president faced impeachment, but not when President Trump is facing impeachment?

JOHNSON: Probably for the same reason that Chuck Schumer had the opposition position during the Clinton trial. Look, these are political exercises. And I think Mitch McConnell has said that very clearly. He said it frankly yesterday. You could play a game tape, he said, from 20 years ago on both sides, and both sides would probably be on the opposite side of the issue.

I think the important point that he made this morning was, that Adam Schiff has made a mess --

SCIUTTO: Can you make a principled argument? Can you make a principled argument? I know it's easy to say politics is politics, but can you make a principled argument for why the American people should not hear from the president's advisors, who have direct knowledge of his decision-making on Ukraine? Why shouldn't Americans have that chance?

JOHNSON: Jim, I don't oppose it. I mean, I would be in favor of a lengthy trial because I think the president has a -- should get a chance to put his case on.

But I think what Senator McConnell's saying, is that Adam Schiff and the Democrats made a mess of their case. They rushed this thing through because they were breathless in its sense of urgency, and they put together their best case and it's falling apart. And so now they've got to redo it. And Chuck Schumer wants to basically fix the mess that they created. I don't think he'll have an opportunity to do that.

SCIUTTO: Let's get to the heart of the allegation at the center of this, and some claims that are made by you and other members of the Republican Party. You, for instance, have said repeatedly that the president was merely guaranteeing that U.S. aid to Ukraine was being used properly.

I want to quote from a letter from the Under Secretary of Defense John Rood. He wrote Congress in May of this year, two months before that presidential phone call, that the Pentagon, quote, "certified that the government of Ukraine has taken substantial actions to make defense institutional reforms for the purposes of decreasing corruption [and] increasing accountability."

They certified that the aid was going to the right places and should go. Why was it then justified for the president to take aid away from an ally at war with Russia if the Pentagon certified it?

JOHNSON: The president is the commander in chief. He is the top commanding officer of the U.S. armed forces -- by the way, our constitutional republic is set up, 63 million Americans voted to give him that responsibility and the oversight ultimately of the use of precious American (ph) --

(CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: Did they give him the right --

JOHNSON: -- taxpayer dollars overseas (ph).

SCIUTTO: -- to delay that aid for personal political favor?

JOHNSON: That's not what happened here. I don't think that's what happened. When he --

SCIUTTO: Oh.

JOHNSON: -- in the famous phone call of July 25th, he said, "Do us a favor," talking about the country.

SCIUTTO: Wow.

JOHNSON: He ran on an American first --

SCIUTTO: I --

JOHNSON: -- America first priority and platform and theme, and that's what he's been consistent about. He wants to make sure --

(CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: Well, as you know --

JOHNSON: -- that our taxpayer dollars aren't (ph) --

SCIUTTO: -- multiple advisors --

JOHNSON: -- squandered overseas.

SCIUTTO: Multiple advisors testified under oath that there was a direct connection to investigating the Bidens.

I want to ask you about something else. Because what's going on right now --

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: That was (ph) their conjecture and speculation, Jim, that's what they said under oath. There's only one direct witness, and it's Sondland.

SCIUTTO: The president's appointed E.U. ambassador, who used the words "quid pro quo," as I know you heard.

But I do want to ask you because something's going on right now. The president's personal attorney returned from Ukraine once again. He says he's gathered a whole host of information relevant to investigating the Bidens.

This is one of the people Rudy Giuliani met with in Ukraine. He is a member of the Ukrainian parliament, pro-Russian, who trained with the KGB. Is this a reliable source of information for investigating a U.S. citizen and the former vice president?

JOHNSON: I don't know anything about that. It's the first I've heard of it. Rudy Giuliani's a private citizen, he can travel anywhere he wants and investigate anything he wants.

We also heard a rumor he was in Ukraine to film a documentary film. I mean, I don't know, but that's not relevant to the impeachment that happened on this House floor just last night. It's --

SCIUTTO: He interviewed this guy and he's got a picture of him, meeting with him on Facebook. So it's not made up.

JOHNSON: Well, I mean, OK. That really doesn't have much to do with what we're doing here. And last night was an absolute tragedy. I think Mitch McConnell was right in his comments this morning, that the Democrats have opened a Pandora's box.

[10:55:01] Because you have to think about this a few years down the road. What happens, Jim, when there's a Democrat in the Oval Office and a Republican majority in the House? The Republican base around the country will begin to demand impeachment as soon as that president makes a decision or a policy position or a statement that they don't like.

Because the bar has now been set so low, they have cheapened impeachment, as the president said. And that's of great concern for the republic and it should not be lost in all these discussions today.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Mike Johnson, we appreciate you joining the program this morning.

JOHNSON: Thank you, Jim. Appreciate it.

HARLOW: Well, that was a fascinating interview. He's in favor of a lengthy trial. I wonder if (ph) --

(CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: It is. He did say that he would support witnesses being called --

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- that's notable.

HARLOW: Yes, I thought so too, Jim. OK. At any moment, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi will speak. She will take reporter questions. This, after she's refused to commit to sending articles of impeachment directly to the Senate. Will she give some clarity on that today? Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): How are you? Good, that's good.

We've been hearing from people all over the country in the last -- since last night and this morning. Seems like people have a spring in their step because the president was held accountable for his reckless behavior. No one is above the law and the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. No one is above the law, and the president has been held accountable.

It really is interesting to see the response that we are getting -- bipartisan, across party lines. I myself want to say, I have a spring in my step because of the moral courage of our caucus, to see them all -- so many of them, a hundred members, go to the floor -- that's all that we had time for -- to go the floor and speak about our Constitution, about the facts of the case so clearly, so patriotically, so prayerfully and so solemnly, but so definitely.

I -- just to get this off the table right away, we impeached the president. Immediately, everybody was on to the next thing. The next thing for us will be when we see the process that is set forth in the Senate, then we'll know the number of managers that we may have to go forward and who -- who we would choose. That's what I said last night, that's what I'm saying now.

[10:59:57]

The precedent for this -- and I met with my six chairs after some of us were together for a press conference after the votes last night -- and we discussed the precedent of it all, and --