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Standoff Erupts Over Fate Of Trump's Senate Impeachment Trial; Rep. Debbie Dingell Takes High Road As Trump Suggest Her Husband Is In Hell. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 19, 2019 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: But the hours of partisan jabbing we saw on the House floor may pale in comparison to what's coming next in the Senate trial. That is once we get to the Senate trial.

The next step is for Speaker Nancy Pelosi to send those Articles of Impeachment over to the Senate, but after Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Judiciary Chairman Lindsey Graham made clear that they will not be impartial or fair jurors, Speaker Pelosi says House Democrats may hang on to those Articles a bit longer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): We impeached the President, and immediately, everybody is on to the next thing. The next thing for us will be when we see the process that is set forth in the Senate, then we'll know the number of monitors that we may have to go forward.

Our founders when they wrote the Constitution, they suspected that there could be a rogue President. I don't think they suspected that we could have a rogue President and a rogue leader in the Senate at the same time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Meanwhile, Leader McConnell claims the real reason Speaker Pelosi and her caucus are balking is because they know their case is, in McConnell's view deficient and thin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): It looks like the prosecutors are getting cold feet in front of the entire country and second guessing whether they even want to go to trial.

They said impeachment was so urgent that it could not even wait for due process, but now they are content to sit on their hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go to our CNN senior White House correspondent, Pamela Brown there in Washington. So Pamela, we know the view on Capitol Hill, but take me behind the scenes at the White House that the President is counting on a speedy trial, counting on exoneration. How worried is he that that may actually be delayed?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's certainly frustration behind the scenes in the White House, Brooke that this trial that the President has been looking forward to where he has been hoping that this will be his final chance for vindication that it could be delayed with word that Nancy Pelosi is delaying turning over those Articles of Impeachment.

In fact, President Trump is spending his first day after being impeached phoning allies asking what is going on with this, not sure what this means for him because he wants a vigorous defense and the Senate where he believes it will be a friendlier venue and he wants it fast. He doesn't want any delay.

But he is spending this first day mostly behind closed doors. He is going to be meeting with Congressman Van Drew who switch parties. We could be hearing from the President later today, we're told.

And as all this is going on, all this uncertainty, it's very fluid, we're told, Brooke, in terms of what the President's defense team will look like during the Senate trial. The President has not actually made any firm decisions yet. It is expected the White House counsel will be taking the lead, but some aides are in the President's ear telling him that Cipollone would be better suited arguing a legal case in a courthouse rather than a political case, an impeachment case on the Senate floor.

And so we know that there was just a meeting recently between Cipollone and four of the -- of three, I should say of the President's fiercest allies on Capitol Hill trying to figure out maybe what role they could play on the Senate floor, perhaps a rebuttal to the House managers argument that they're going to make.

And there's also this like growing tension between White House counsel and Mick Mulvaney, the Chief of Staff that is still ongoing. Aides described that as a power struggle that is happening.

And so there's a lot going on as the White House Counsel's Office tries to build its case for the Senate trial. It is going to be focusing on two different avenues on these two different Articles of Impeachment, Brooke. So there is certainly a lot going on behind the scenes at the White House today, the first day that the President is impeached.

BALDWIN: Yes. A lot behind the scenes, but in front of the cameras. As you mentioned, freshman congressman Jeff Van Drew, New Jersey, he will be meeting with the President. He is the Democrat soon to be turned Republican. We'll be watching for that and to see how the President takes that in today. Pamela, thank you very much.

Now, all of this is setting up, just the latest clash in the impeachment of President Trump. With me now, CNN legal analyst, Elie Honig and again, we can't - before we keep, you know, obviously, we want to look at the Senate, but let's just pause to talk about third President ever in history of this country to be impeached. Just give us a little bit more historical context. ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Brooke. So we really are seeing

history unfold here. The U.S. Constitution gives the Senate the sole power to try all impeachments, and we are about to see only the third time the Senate has exercised that power to try a President.

The first time was in 1868. The U.S. Senate tried then President Andrew Johnson. He was acquitted, meaning found not guilty by a single vote. And then more recently, of course, in 1999, the Senate tried Bill Clinton on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice relating to Monica Lewinsky; he too, was acquitted.

So this is only the third time we're going to see that awesome power used by the Senate.

BALDWIN: So overseeing the Senate trial is the Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, Chief Justice John Roberts. Who are the other key players and how much power will Justice Roberts really have?

HONIG: So the most important players here are going to be the jurors and the jury here, unlike in a regular criminal case is going to be the 100 members of the U.S. Senate.

Now before they start, they're all going to have to take an oath. They're going to have to raise their right hand and swear, and what they are going to have to swear to do is to do impartial justice under the laws, the Constitution and the laws, so help me God.

[14:05:13]

HONIG: Now a couple of them may have trouble reconciling that oath of impartiality with things that they've said publicly.

BALDWIN: And then explain what House managers do and how many might there be.

HONIG: So House managers effectively prosecute the case on behalf of the House. The defense team, as Pam just said is going to be led by Pat Cipollone, White House counsel. On the prosecution side, the House is going to have to come up with a team. There's no set number.

In the Bill Clinton trial in 1999, there were 13 House manager. So here, the jockeying has begun. A lot of different representatives want to be named to that team to prosecute the case on the Senate floor against the President.

BALDWIN: What about the procedure and then ultimately the vote?

HONIG: Yes, so the procedure is sort of open. The Senate has a set of rules. They're fairly antiquated. There will be opening arguments. There will be debate. There will be closing arguments. The big question now is, will we see witnesses? Will there be any meat in that sandwich?

Chuck Schumer is making the case now that we need to hear from four key witnesses. Most importantly, Mick Mulvaney and John Bolton, but Mitch McConnell has said yesterday and he said again today, he has zero interest in having any types of witnesses or real evidence in this proceeding. That will be an ongoing political debate.

BALDWIN: Okay, and then ultimately, two thirds.

HONIG: Ultimately, they will vote. They need two thirds of the vote to convict. There's 53 Republicans right now. So it's going to take 20 of them flipping over and voting to convict in order to have a conviction.

BALDWIN: You're the best, Elie Honig. Thank you very much for that.

HONIG: Thanks, Brooke. All right.

BALDWIN: Let's chat about all of the above. Danny Weiss is a former Chief of Staff for Speaker Pelosi. He is back with us today. Doug Heye is a Republican strategist and former Communications Director for the Republican National Committee. So Doug, good to see you again.

Danny, let me just -- let me start with you. The Speaker, Chairman Schiff, other top Democrats say you know, they want proof that there will be this fair trial before forwarding these Articles of Impeachment over to the Senate. The question to you is, what does a fair trial look like?

DANNY WEISS, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF FOR SPEAKER PELOSI: Well, hey, Brooke, thanks for having me on. You know, a fair trial, if you ask Senator Schumer or Speaker Pelosi, they would say the opportunity to gather the additional information that the President prevented from being considered in the House investigation.

So Senator Schumer's letter to McConnell called for four witnesses, as you've just talked about, that are critical fact witnesses, people who have direct information about what the President did. In addition, they want to see documents. They'd like to know exactly how this process is going to unfold.

It's interesting that the Speaker, you know, has delayed this a little bit. I don't think in the history of impeachment --

BALDWIN: Were you surprised she did that knowing her as well as you do?

WEISS: I was a little bit surprised, but when you think about it, you know, I don't -- I'm not an impeachment expert, but I don't think that delays are completely, you know, ahistorical. So there's a time in between.

What the delay gives her -- and I think this was very clever on her part -- what the delay gives are two things. One is, a little more time to make decisions about who she wants the managers to be. She has a large group of top quality people to choose from, and she has to make that decision.

And the second thing is, she is allowing for a little bit more of a public examination of what you've already described as Senator McConnell and Senator Graham's essentially open admission that this is not going to be a fair process in the Senate. So by delaying, she is giving a little more time for the public and

others to examine what that process should look like.

BALDWIN: Meantime, you have Leader McConnell, Senator Graham, they're pushing for a quick trial, but I want you to listen to what they said. Doug, this is for you, what they said during the Clinton impeachment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: Every other impeachment has had witnesses. It's not unusual to have witnesses in a trial. And I think we're handling this in exactly the appropriate way under the Constitution and it will end soon.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): We need witnesses, ladies and gentlemen, to clarify who said what, who is being honest, who's not and what really did happen in this sordid tale.

Give us this witness. We will do it in a professional manner. We will focus on the obstruction. We will try to do it in a way not to demean the Senate. We will try to do it in a way not to domain Miss Lewinsky.

We will try to do it in a way to get to the truth. Please give us a chance to present our case in a persuasive fashion because unlike the House, everything is in dispute here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I mean, Doug, you know what this looks like? It's as though McConnell and Graham are abandoning rules based upon how it benefits them in that given time. Right? So they felt one way in '99, until totally differently now.

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, look, I think if you watch this with any kind of an objective eye, which is very hard to do in Washington right now, we're in a bizarre world compared to the previous Clinton -- the previous impeachment with Bill Clinton.

[14:10:01]

HEYE: I worked in the House at that time and Republicans were on a very different side from where they are right now, 20 years later. Democrats are on a very different side from where they are now.

I don't know where we could go to have a fair and fully impartial trial and that includes short statements from Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell. That also includes Kamala Harris who has made clear that she finds Trump already guilty.

And so, we can't get I think to this ideal fair place. But it's not clear to me then why we've gotten to this process already if we had these concerns, if Democrats and Speaker Pelosi had these concerns.

And let me say with full disclosure, as you know, Brooke, I worked on the Fire Pelosi Campaign in 2010. We didn't do that because we thought Nancy Pelosi was ineffective. In fact, we did it because we thought she was very effective, too effective.

We had a lot of respect -- still has a lot of respect for like Donald Trump said he did in 2008. But it's not clear to me why we're at this point now if they're not ready to move forward.

BALDWIN: What's the one thing quickly, Danny, that where you think Democrats shouldn't budge?

WEISS: Well, I think that, you know, this isn't necessarily should budge, should not budge. They've asked for witnesses, they've asked for documents. But I just want to make the point in response to what Doug said that when the House was going through this process, Senator McConnell had not yet said that he is going to be in lockstep with the President on the trial. So that did change the calculus, I believe, for House Democrats in terms of their willingness to go forward.

They're going to go forward, this process is going to take place and when this process is over, I just wanted to mention, the President will have been impeached, for only the third time in American history, Donald Trump will have been impeached -- that will never be taken away.

BALDWIN: Yes. Correct.

WEISS: In all likelihood, he will be acquitted and that really can't change either given the nature of the Senate at this point.

BALDWIN: Correct, but now, he is part of this exclusive group, this club that certainly no President would want to join. Doug Heye, Danny Weiss, thank you both so much.

President Trump's response to his impeachment is attack. Just one of his targets, the grieving widow of a distinguished Congressman and World War II veteran. We will talk about Congresswoman Debbie Dingell's response after the President suggested her late husband had gone to hell.

Plus, Speaker Pelosi's surprise move. We will talk to her daughter about her mother's mindset during this historic moment.

And just hours away from the debate tonight, the latest rankings of the 2020 Democratic presidential candidates.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:21]

BALDWIN: We're back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. It was not even a week ago when Congresswoman Debbie Dingell told me how it felt awful. Her own words there when President Trump invoked her late husband's name while criticizing her on Twitter.

And now just two days after her raw revelation to me, President Trump took his cruelty to a new level suggesting John Dingell, the longest serving member in Congress, maybe in hell, and the President said this at a rally in Dingell's home state of Michigan.

President Trump was recalling his talk with Debbie about her husband's memorial arrangements.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So she calls me up like eight months ago, her husband was there a long time, but I didn't give him the B treatment. I didn't give him the C or the D. I could have.

She calls me up. It's the nicest thing that's ever happened. Thank you so much. John would be so thrilled. He is looking down, he would be so thrilled. I said, that's okay. Don't worry about it. Maybe he is looking up, I don't know.

[LAUGHTER]

TRUMP: I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: John Dingell died in February of this year at the age of 92, after 38 years of marriage, and since that rally last night. Several Republicans in Michigan have condemned Trump's shameful comments.

Congresswoman Dingell said today that when she heard Trump's most recent comments, quote, "It felt like a kick in the gut."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): It wasn't a political moment for me. It was just a really cheap shot at a man who I know who loved his country. I don't want to politicize my husband. I don't want to politicize his death. It is still something that I'm really grieving over.

My family is still hurting. I have a brother-in-law, he is John's brother, my brother-in-law is in hospice, he went into hospice at Thanksgiving. And these kinds of things, we're a family grieving.

So I think we should take a lesson from this and all respect each other. Period. In the broader -- we need more civility in this country. Some things should be off limits.

So let's take a deep breath. It's the holidays. Many people celebrate different kinds of holidays. Let's start to remember that we need to respect each other.

If he thinks he's going to keep me from doing my job, I'm going to be right back at it when I leave here.

BALDWIN: Jamie Gangel is a CNN special correspondent and Ana Navarro is a CNN political commentator and Republican strategist. Wow. Ana, first to you just on a lot of what President Trump said beyond being shameful was just inaccurate about how he called her. I don't want to get into that. What I want to get into is just how this appears to be part of the pattern, right?

We know how the President treated the late John McCain, another veteran, and just to you, Ana first, how disturbing is this?

[14:20:10]

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, it's extremely disturbing, and one of the things we can't stop is being outraged by things that this man does that merit outrage, because one of the things that Donald Trump has done is worn us down, where we all kind of shrug and say, oh, that's just Trump being Trump.

No, he is the President of the United States, and a week before Christmas, he is in Michigan, going after a man whose family has represented Michigan for almost 90 years, despite the fact that his widow is grieving and he is doing it in a very personal form, and it is outrageous, and it should be condemned and it should not be accepted. And we should not just say this is Trump being Trump.

No, this is inhumane and it is unacceptable and it is despicable and it is disgusting. And yes, it is Trump being Trump because he is all those things.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: What Ana said.

BALDWIN: Yes. What we -- she is right, too. We have a right to call the President out. Why aren't other Republicans doing that?

GANGEL: So actually, some are. We've heard, I believe it was Fred Upton.

BALDWIN: Fred Upton.

GANGEL: Full disclosure, I went to college with Debbie Dingell. I've known her a long, long time, and nobody deserves this. I do not know what is wrong with Donald Trump that he continues to do this.

I know that Liz Cheney, who is a Republican came up to Debbie on the floor and gave her a hug. And also, there's something very nice that's on Twitter right now. It shouldn't need to be there. But there is a tweet from Cindy McCain.

BALDWIN: Oh, let's see it.

GANGEL: John McCain's daughter she said, "I'm terribly sorry. Please know I am thinking about you." And it's in response to Debbie saying, let's set politics aside and it's gone viral.

But as Ana said, there is -- this should -- we have to call it out every time. We cannot become desensitized to it. It is not okay.

BALDWIN: Yes, yes. She is right.

NAVARRO: I want to -- Debbie Dingell is a Sacred Heart girl, as am I, and she and I have done events together to benefit the Sacred Heart. So she -- you know, she's a class act. But she's also a tough cookie because she's a Sacred Heart girl.

And I just want to use your cameras, if you allow me, to let her know that most of the country, most of the country is sending her love. And right now her husband is looking down at her from heaven, sending his love and we've got her back and we are embracing her in love and affection.

And I would say the same thing for all Americans who are missing somebody this Christmas. Look, the holidays are very tough when your family has a void and a hole, whether you are John McCain, whether you are Debbie Dingell, or whether you are Ana Navarro, you feel it.

And so I am sorry that Debbie is going through this and I'm even more sorry, I am even more sorry that we have a pathetic, lame excuse inhumane President, who instead of embracing this country and trying to unify this country, uses his pulpit, his presidential pulpit to attack dead war heroes who unlike him, did not make up bone spurs, but wore this country's uniform and risked their lives in defense of American values.

I am sorry that he is the President and I will tell you, that is why Americans cannot accept this man. And just, you know, allow him to cheapen the presidency the way that he has done for the last three years because we cannot descend to this level of inhumanity towards each other because the President of the United States is doing so.

And to Melania, girl, try a little better with Be Best because you know what? Be Best should start at home.

BALDWIN: On that note, of that home --

GANGEL: It's a funny thing she should say that.

BALDWIN: Bunny because -- funny, not funny. You know last night at this rally, the President invoked, you know his own son, Barron when he was going after Elizabeth Warren trying to explain away the size of her rally in New York. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: If crazy Pocahontas goes to the middle of Central Park or whatever part. She is in Manhattan. You got me. And people, I mean, I could have -- I could have Barron Trump go into Central Park and he'd got a crowd that would be just as easy.

[APPLAUSE]

TRUMP: He is 13.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So just -- what? Last week? Two weeks ago, Melania Trump chastised an impeachment when who used Barron's name in passing during a joke? Did the President just not get the memo?

[14:25:05] GANGEL: You stole my -- you stole my line.

BALDWIN: Did I steal your line?

GANGEL: I would like to read you the memo from Melania Trump on Twitter. "A minor child deserves privacy and should be kept out of politics." Note to the President.

BALDWIN: To Donald J. Trump.

GANGEL: Look, this is just big picture whether we're talking about what he said about Barron Trump, his own son, which I have to say sounded a little demeaning in a weird way.

BALDWIN: Yes, not a compliment.

GANGEL: Or John Dingell. This is not about being a Democrat. This is not about being a Republican.

BALDWIN: It's about being human.

GANGEL: This is about decency.

BALDWIN: Yes.

GANGEL: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Thank you very much.

NAVARRO: And you know what, you should stop bluffing and he should go to Central Park and see what happens. Okay, because I can tell you, thousands of people under terrible weather conditions were protesting in Times Square in New York this week in favor of impeachment.

So go ahead, go to Central Park. Go to Manhattan. Let's see how much they like you there. They know you there. They know who you are.

BALDWIN: All right, ladies, Ana, thank you. Jamie, thank you as well.

Just one of the moments everyone is talking about from this historic impeachment vote, Senator Speaker Pelosi's glare. You see this. Silenced applause, if you just want to look. We will talk to her daughter, Christine Pelosi and get her two cents on all of this.

Also, what Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer just told his caucus about whether Speaker Pelosi will send over those Articles of Impeachment. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)