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Trump Attacks Late Congressman; Nancy Pelosi Delays Sending Impeachment Articles to Senate; Interview With Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD). Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 19, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: President Trump's hopes for a speedy impeachment trial may have run into a roadblock: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

After a largely party-line vote to impeach President Trump, Pelosi says she wants an assurance that the Senate trial will be a fair one. And to get that, she may delay forwarding those articles of impeachment over to the Senate over to Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): We impeach the president, immediately, everybody is on to the next thing. The next thing for us will be when we see the process that is set forth in the Senate. Then we will know the number of managers that we may have to go forward.

Our founders, and when they wrote the Constitution, they suspected that there could be a rogue president. I don't think they suspected that we could have a rogue president and a rogue leader in the Senate at the same time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And now, behind the scenes over at the White House, CNN has learned that the president is a bit worried about any holdup.

You may remember that Senator Mitch McConnell has publicly said that he is coordinating with the White House on Senate trial strategy and that he is not an impartial juror in this whole political process.

Well, today, on the Senate floor, Leader McConnell once again made it clear that it is not the Senate's job to fix any issues with the Democrats' investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): If House Democrats' case is this deficient, this thin, the answer is not for the judge and jury to cure it over here in the Senate. The answer is, the House should not impeach on this basis in the first place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN congressional correspondent Phil Mattingly there is live at the Capitol.

And so, Phil, both the House and the Senate break for the holiday recess tomorrow. What's the state of play today when it comes to next steps on impeachment?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brooke, it's waiting, watching, wondering, I guess, to be blunt.

Look, I'll tell you what I'm actually watching right now, because this is the most important next step. As I speak, the Senate is having its final votes of the year. It's a series of them. It's going to take a couple of hours.

It's on the Senate floor -- or, actually, more specifically, right off the Senate floor -- where we expect Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Senate Democratic Leader chuck Schumer to finally meet. We have been waiting for this meeting regarding if they can reach an agreement on the next steps of actually the structure of the Senate impeachment trial for the better part of the last couple of weeks.

They have been going back and forth against one another, McConnell angry that Schumer laid out his demands in public, Schumer outraged that McConnell has talked about his coordination with the White House and the fact he's not an impartial juror.

They need to meet and talk. And the speaker made clear this morning that is the trigger, what they come up with, if they come up with something, for her to take her next steps, which is appoint managers of impeachment, vote on those managers, and send the articles over to the United States Senate.

So we're waiting on that right now. That meeting will be crucial in terms of timeline. And the timeline is, will they send this over before they break for their holiday recess, or will we have to wait a couple of weeks?

Now, the differences between Democrats and Republicans on this are pretty stark, Republicans making clear, one, McConnell is not in favor of witnesses at this point in time. A lot of his members have lined up behind him on that. Democrats led by Chuck Schumer and House Democrats want witnesses, very specific witnesses.

There is a middle ground here of, let's have the first stage of the trial. And then we can vote on whether or not we want witnesses later on in the process. But they haven't come to an agreement yet. And that's why we're watching the Senate floor like hawks right now, Brooke, to see if we can divine anything or read some tea leaves as to what is actually going to happen next.

BALDWIN: Let me know what those tea leaves are looking like. Phil, thank you very much.

Let me try to do the same here. Let me bring in Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. He

is a member of Budget and the Appropriations Committee.

So, Senator Van Hollen, a pleasure to have you on. Welcome sir.

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Brooke, great to be with you.

BALDWIN: All right.

So, Senator, you were one of the first to float this idea of the House hanging on to those articles of impeachment until the Senate Republicans agree to this fair trial. Tell the American people why you think it's a good play.

VAN HOLLEN: Oh, it's a good play because the American people deserve a fair trial.

And what Speaker Pelosi is saying is that she won't transfer the articles of impeachment until we get assurances that there will be a fair trial.

We all know that Mitch McConnell, Senator McConnell, said that he was not an impartial juror, that he was going to work in lockstep with the president, who's the defendant in this trial proceeding.

And McConnell has also rejected our very reasonable requests for relevant fact witnesses. I think the American people know that a real trial, that's fair, you get to call your fact witnesses.

And so Pelosi is doing the right thing.

BALDWIN: First, just on process, one of the tricky things is that, in the Constitution, it's very clear as far as what the House and Senate need to do, but there's no clear set of rules on how those articles must make their way from the House to the Senate.

So, Senator Van Hollen, what do you say if Leader McConnell just says, well, we're going to start a trial anyway? What do you do?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, he cannot start a trial without receiving the articles of impeachment.

[15:05:05]

And that's what we're saying. Before those articles get transmitted from the House of Representatives, we have to have assurances, the public needs assurances that this will be a fair process.

And this is all made necessary by the fact that Mitch McConnell made it clear that he was trying to rig the trial. I mean, he said he was going to be talking with the president, taking his lead from the president's lawyers.

That is not the duty of the Senate. We're supposed to try the case. And that means getting to the facts, even more facts. The House has presented lots of facts, but they have a right, under a normal trial proceedings, to call witnesses.

BALDWIN: But -- but...

VAN HOLLEN: So, if we're going to call this a trial, let's make sure we have the opportunity to treat it like a trial.

BALDWIN: I hear you and I hear Democrats wanting this fair trial.

But on the flip side, we have heard your party over and over that Trump is a risk to the country, right, that he poses this clear and present danger. But doesn't slowing down the process, right, hanging on to those articles run counter to that?

VAN HOLLEN: No, we want a speedy trial. This can be done very quickly. There's no need to take a lot of time.

In fact, we have said that these witnesses, we're talking about maybe four hours each. So it would really be the White House trying to hold things up if they refuse to do what you get to have in any normal trial, which is the witnesses you call.

Look, if a witness wants to come down and take the Fifth Amendment, they can do that. But a fair trial requires the calling of witnesses. And that's what we're asking for.

When the House said that they wanted this to move quickly, obviously, we want to speedy trial.

BALDWIN: Yes.

VAN HOLLEN: But that doesn't mean you can't have a fair trial. You can have both.

BALDWIN: You want a fair trial. At the end of the day, though, Senator, your party isn't in power. So what can you realistically do to stop Mitch McConnell?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, again, Speaker Pelosi can insist on the parameters of a fair trial before sending over the articles of impeachment.

And as was reported, later today, Senator McConnell and Senator Schumer will be meeting. And what Senator -- excuse me -- what Speaker Pelosi has said is, she wants to see whether they're going to agree to a fair process, because that's what the American people deserve.

And the American people understand in their gut that, if you're going to have a fair trial, you get to call witnesses and present additional evidence.

The only reason that the president or Mitch McConnell would not agree to this is because the additional evidence that we will be receiving will be even more incriminating, and make it more difficult for Republican senators to vote to acquit the president.

And so that's clearly what they're afraid of. If they had nothing to fear from this evidence and this testimony, then they wouldn't be hiding it.

So, let's...

BALDWIN: Sure. And they would say -- but they would say, all right, Democrats are holding these articles hostage. We want to continue on. We have nothing to hide.

Both sides will have spin both ways.

(CROSSTALK)

VAN HOLLEN: No, no, no. No one's holding -- no, all they have to say is that you get to conduct this trial like any trial in America, right?

In other trials in America, you don't have a political vote to determine who gets to testify or not testify. The judge gets to decide.

Look, if the chief justice would play an active role in this and rule on motions with respect to who gets to be a witness, and that wouldn't be subject to a political veto, that may be one way forward, right?

That would be fair.

BALDWIN: Have you tried talking to -- have you talked to any of these more moderate Republicans about any of this, Senator, the Mitt Romneys, the Susan Collins, the Lisa Murkowskis of the world? Have you talked to them and what are they saying?

VAN HOLLEN: There have been some conversations. They have also made public statements.

And my sense is that at least they're saying that they want a fair trial. But let's -- that means that you have got to ensure these witnesses.

And I think everybody...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But are they speaking up to Mitch McConnell? Are they saying, this is how we feel?

VAN HOLLEN: I don't know the answer to that.

I hope everybody will ask them. I think we should have a very public and open conversation with the American people about what constitutes a fair trial. That's why what Speaker Pelosi has done is appropriate and smart, because what she's doing is shining a light on whether or not the process is fair or whether it's rigged.

BALDWIN: Sure. Sure.

And here's my final question, Senator Van Hollen. And that is, a lot of Americans hear the word impeach, and they think, OK, he's out, right? But, no, that that's the Senate's job.

My question is, do you think he should be removed from office, given the evidence you have seen?

VAN HOLLEN: So here's my view, Brooke, which is that the House has produced overwhelming evidence to warrant the impeachment of the president and the removal of the president, but subject to additional evidence.

[15:10:03]

I will very carefully listen to any additional evidence and will not make a final decision or render a verdict until all the evidence is in.

But it's important that the evidence come in. And, as you know, it was the White House that denied the House of Representatives lots of important evidence.

And I think that we're entitled to that. Look, it's the president -- the president said he wanted a big trial in the United States Senate. He wanted to call a lot of witnesses.

It's totally inconsistent for him to say, we want a lot of witnesses, but guess what, I'm ordering White House witnesses not to show up, right? That is not a fair trial. The American people know it.

No matter where they stand on the ultimate question of whether the evidence warrants impeachment and removal, overwhelming, the American people know a fair trial when they see one.

BALDWIN: Well, America will be watching you very closely.

Senator Van Hollen, good luck. Thank you.

VAN HOLLEN: Thank you. You too.

BALDWIN: Coming up next: President Trump insults the late Congressman John Dingell, a man who served his country as both a veteran and the longest serving congressman in U.S. history.

Hear how his wife, current Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, is responding to that today.

And Democrat voters weigh in on how they view impeachment and whether it's worth the potential political price.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:18]

BALDWIN: It wasn't even a week ago when I had Congresswoman Debbie Dingell on the show. She told me how it felt awful -- those are her words -- when President Trump invoked her late husband's name while criticizing her on Twitter.

And now President Trump has taken his cruelty to a whole new level, suggesting the late John Dingell, the longest serving member of Congress, may be -- quote -- "looking up," as in from hell.

And the president said this is at a rally in the Dingells' home state of Michigan last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, she calls me up like eight months ago. Her husband was there a long time. But I didn't give him the B treatment. I didn't give him the C or D. I could have.

She calls me up. It's the nicest thing that's ever happened. Thank you so much. John would be so thrilled. He's looking down. He would be so thrilled.

I said, that's OK. Don't worry about it.

Maybe he's looking up. I don't know.

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: John Dingell died in February of this year at the age of 92, after 38 years of marriage.

And since that rally, several Republicans in Michigan have stood up. They have condemned Trump's shameful blow.

Congresswoman Dingell did say today that when she heard Trump's most recent comments, she said it felt like a kick in the gut.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): You know, I think it's time to put politics aside on these kind of shots.

I try to be respectful of everybody. I have never taken a personal shot at this president. I think his family is off-limits.

I was very grateful. By the way, he -- I didn't call him. He called me to tell me he was lowering the flags.

My family's still hurting. The rhetoric, the bullying, the viciousness isn't OK. And there are too many people across the country that are beginning to think it is OK. So let's take a deep breath. It's the holidays. Many people celebrate different kinds of holidays. Let's start to remember that we need to respect each other. And what

do we want this country to be? And what do we want the tone of our civilization to be?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: J.W. Verret served as an adviser to Trump's transition team. He then called for Trump's impeachment after reading the Mueller report.

J.W., welcome back.

J.W. VERRET, FORMER TRUMP TRANSITION STAFFER: Thanks for having me, Brooke.

BALDWIN: This is just another example of this president going after a late veteran, a lawmaker, their families.

I mean, you knew him. What kind of man does this?

VERRET: Well, I joined the transition for the president briefly, for a couple of months. And I left after the "Hollywood Access" tape, because I just didn't want to be a part of that.

I think that he's someone who sets a terrible tone at the top. I'm a corporate law professor by day. I don't usually spend time with this impeachment issue, until it started to happen.

Tone at the top is everything in corporate law, corporate governance, and it flows through every organization. And that's what's going on here. He's setting a terrible tone of the top, not only for the White House or the executive branch, but for the whole country.

BALDWIN: We saw a tweet from Cindy McCain. The late Senator John McCain's widow was also targeted after death by Trump.

And she tweeted this to Debbie Dingell: "I'm terribly sorry. Please know I'm thinking about you," and obviously showing great empathy there.

I mean, you spent time with Donald Trump. Did he ever demonstrate his ability to empathize ever around you?

VERRET: Yes, I didn't spend time with him personally. I spent time with his family. And they're actually very nice people, from what I have seen.

But everything we know about this guy and everybody I know who spent time around him says, it's -- the guy's a dictator. I mean, you kind of put your head down, you say, yes, sir, you hope he moves on to another policy issue, and then you go do your work.

[15:20:07]

That's the approach that folks at the White House Counsel's Office take and the White House National Economic Council, Domestic Policy Council take to him. They just try to work around him and hope he ignores them and do their job.

BALDWIN: With this impeachment now, do you think that this is one of the first times that Donald Trump has been held accountable in his life?

VERRET: Well, I mean, he's been held accountable a couple of times.

Unfortunately, voters have ignored it in the last election. We will see if they will next time. I mean, he was held accountable for cheating on his nonprofit organization, his charity. He was held accountable -- or he settled, at least, with the New York A.G. with respect to Trump University.

He's been sued a number of times. He usually makes a lot of noise and then ultimately settles. We will see if he's held accountable here. But the important point, I think, to make is that this is not the last, top chance to House will get to hold him accountable.

I think the issues with his tax returns that the Supreme Court will decide in the summer might present a second chance for the House to bring impeachment proceedings. It all sort of connected to the Mueller investigation.

BALDWIN: Another round? Oh, my gosh, J.W. Can't even -- can't even think that far out. I hear you, though.

Let me play -- this is what a number of Republicans think of this president and this whole process. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BARRY LOUDERMILK (R-GA): During that sham trial, Pontius Pilate afforded more rights to Jesus than the Democrats have afforded this President.

REP. FRED KELLER (R-PA): From the Gospel of Luke, the 23rd Chapter, Verse 34. And Jesus said: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

REP. MIKE KELLY (R-PA): On December 7, 1941, a horrific act happened in the United States. And it's one that President Roosevelt said, this is a date that will live in infamy. Today, December the 18th, 2019, is another date that will live in infamy.

REP. CLAY HIGGINS (R-LA): I have to sand it into the belly of the beast. I have witnessed the terror within. And I rise committed to oppose the insidious forces which threaten our republic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: What's your response? What's your read on all these angry men?

VERRET: I think that the Congress has always been a little bit of an ugly institution. But, ultimately, it's a mirror for us. It's designed to be a mirror

to us as voters and as people. That, I think, requires all of us to kind of look inside as we approach the holidays.

It's unfortunate. I can have a good debate with someone I disagree with about, is the conduct rising to the level of impeachment, or does it need to be a crime to be impeachable and that sort of thing? We can have that debate, and I have a firm position there.

But I just don't understand people -- or I don't have any sympathy for people that just go on TV to defend the president and sort of obfuscate the truth. I understand it. It's about power. And it's about getting the president's favor.

But I don't have any respect for it.

BALDWIN: Yes, it should be about decency.

J.W., good to have you on. Thank you very much.

VERRET: Thank you so much.

BALDWIN: You got it.

Coming up next: an inside look at how a Senate trial of President Trump would work, how Republicans may ignore precedent when it comes to calling witnesses.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:15]

BALDWIN: Now that the House has impeached President Trump, next up is the trial in the Senate, and that's expected to start next month.

While House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Minority Leader Chuck Schumer have signaled that they will make several demands for a fair trial, there are some rules that are already in place.

Joan Biskupic is our CNN Supreme Court analyst.

And, Joan let's just start with key players in the trial, starting with Supreme Court justice -- Chief Justice John Roberts, who will be presiding. What will his role be? How much power does he have?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: OK, he essentially runs the show, but at the direction of the senators.

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, and however he compromises with his colleagues, will essentially set a lot of the rules. And we will get to those.

But then they will turn it over the chief justice, whose main role comes from the Constitution. In fact, Brooke, the chief justice the United States is mentioned in the Constitution only once. And the reference has to do with his presiding over a trial when it's the president who's being impeached.

So he will come in, he will take an oath, and then he will deliver an oath to the 100 senators. They will come up, and they will then sign something called an oath book. And then you see the other key players there.

The House managers, who are essentially prosecutors, will present the case against the president, and then his -- the president's lawyers, led by White House counsel Pat Cipollone, would defend it.

But the people who are in real control are the senators, the 100 senators. It's their show. Under the Constitution, they have the sole authority to decide whether a president is acquitted or convicted.

BALDWIN: So what are the rules on the books? How will this actually work?

BISKUPIC: OK.

As I know you have been saying all day with your guests, the Constitution itself only provides the barest of structure about the two responsibilities of the House and the Senate.

But there are rules that the Senate has adopted --

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