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Pelosi, McConnell Clash in Senate Trial Standoff; President Trump Racks Up Economic Wins Ahead of 2020 Race; New CNN Poll: Economy Receives Best Ranking in Nearly 20 Years. Aired 9-9:30a ET
Aired December 20, 2019 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:32]
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right, good morning, everyone. It is Friday. It's been a big week. Jim Sciutto has the day off.
Standoff over the Senate impeachment trial. The president wants it wrapped up quickly, but Congress not delivering that gift before Christmas. Lawmakers heading home for the holiday break after Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell says talks with Senator Schumer are at an impasse.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi refusing to send the impeachment articles until they cut a deal on the rules of the trial. And the big holdup is witnesses. Will there be witnesses called or not? That leaves the president a little more concerned, perhaps, as he heads to Florida.
Also stunning this morning, a "Washington Post" report telling us more about what is behind the president's belief that it was Ukraine, not Russia, that interfered in the 2016 election. Of course, it is completely unfounded but one former official tells the "Post" the president said, quote, "Putin told me." The Ukraine conspiracy theory now one of the chief impeachment defenses mounted by the president and his allies.
So there is a lot to get to. Let's begin with the negotiations on Capitol Hill and the latest there. Our senior congressional correspondent Manu Raju joins me now.
An impasse is not a hopeful word, Manu. What does this mean?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It means the Senate trial for the president is in limbo. We don't know when it will start. We don't know exactly how long this impasse will last. But we do know what the differences are.
What the Democrats in the Senate are demanding are having witnesses and documents agreed to up front in the negotiations. Mitch McConnell said -- the majority leader says he does not want to agree to that up front. He said they can deal with that at a later time. He just wants to start the trial, get some of the bare bones, nuts and bolts of the trial agreed to on paper then deal with those more thorny, partisan issues about how and who to bring forward at a later date. That's not what the Democrats are going to go -- agreeing to at the
moment. Chuck Schumer says he wants to make sure that they can hear from some of those witnesses who did not come forward before the House impeachment probe including Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, as well as John Bolton, the former National Security adviser. And of course those individuals did not come because the White House intervened and blocked their testimony then Democrats in the House chose not to fight that in court. Mitch McConnell has said they should have went to court to get those witnesses to come forward.
Now at the same time, Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker, has decided not to send over those articles of impeachment from the House to the Senate which would prompt the Senate trial because she wants to see what the process is in the Senate first. So if the senators -- the Senate leaders don't get a deal, it's uncertain when the articles will not be sent over.
At the same time, Poppy, everybody in this town is essentially gone because both the House and the Senate close their doors for the holidays. They don't return until the week of January 6th. So we could see uncertain -- the president's trial in an uncertain position until they get back to town. But one thing the president has made clear both on Twitter and in private is that he does, in fact, want a Senate trial.
HARLOW: Yes.
RAJU: He is demanding a Senate trial to happen. But Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell, he does not necessarily want a Senate trial saying if they don't send over the articles to him, so be it. It's fine with him.
HARLOW: All right.
RAJU: So there's a difference between the two. We'll see how that gets resolved, Poppy.
HARLOW: Yes. Maybe some reflection over the holidays.
Manu, thank you very much.
Let's go to Joe Johns at the White House with more on the strategy.
So, Joe, the president wants a trial like yesterday.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes. He says he wants an immediate trial. And, look, talking to people over here at the White House, if there's one thing they'd made really clear is that this thing has at least four corners. You have to worry about the process, the politics, the law and the facts, and there are disagreements between people at the White House and people up on Capitol Hill on just about all of that.
But the procedures is the biggest thing. And as Manu was just pointing out, there are or appear to be divisions, at least small divisions, between the president of the United States and the Republican majority leader of the United States Senate. Especially when it comes to whether there will be a long trial or a short trial. The president has suggested he'd like to see a longer trial. He'd like to see more theatrical.
Mr. McConnell has suggested he would like to see a short trial, and he doesn't want a circus because it's quite clear to people up on Capitol Hill that with all these moving parts, number one, the defendant can't call the shots but also, if you have a long trial, there's a real concern that it could be unpredictable, if you will. That is something McConnell does not want because right now he believes he has Senate Republicans locked in.
HARLOW: Yes.
[09:05:02]
JOHNS: Opposed to the conviction of the president. Back to you.
HARLOW: All right, Joe Johns. Appreciate the reporting. If I don't see you first, have a great holiday. Thanks so much.
JOHNS: You, too.
HARLOW: OK. Meantime, the president is closing the gap on his 2020 Democratic rivals in a new CNN poll of head-to-head matchups. It shows the president has cut the lead that Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders had on him and have back in October while overtaking Mayor Pete Buttigieg altogether. These new numbers come on the heels of last night's Democratic debate where Buttigieg found himself to be a target.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The mayor just recently had a fundraiser that was held in a wine cave full of crystals and served $900 a bottle wine.
MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D-IN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am literally the only person on this stage who is not a millionaire or a billionaire.
Senator, your net worth is 100 times mine.
WARREN: I do not sell access to my time. I don't do call time with millionaires and billionaires.
BUTTIGIEG: Hold on a sec.
WARREN: I don't --
BUTTIGIEG: Sorry, as of when, Senator? Senator, your presidential campaign right now as we speak is funded in part by money you transferred having raised it at those exact same big-ticket fundraisers you now denounce.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: I'm joined now by David Gergen, a former adviser to four presidents, and Bob Barnett who has coached 10 different campaigns for presidential debates, 10 different campaigns and is a partner at Williams and Connolly.
Good to have you both, gentlemen. I mean, I, you know, haven't had $900 bottle of wine in a wine cave, but, you know, this is -- it's going to stick, right? If there are things from debates that stick, I think wine cave was it last night.
Bob, let me begin with you because it seemed like one of the most obvious clashes here that will I think continue throughout is about money and politics. Is that what sways voters?
ROBERT BARNETT, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You can't get to the general unless you pass through the caucuses and primaries. And I'm acutely aware of that having gone through 10 presidential campaigns.
HARLOW: Yes.
BARNETT: But I'm disappointed that we didn't spend more time last night after the first 10 minutes talking about the general election opponent. I'm not sure this election ultimately will be decided by money and politics or whether rich people get free college tuition or how we pay for Medicare for All. I realize you've got to debate those things and show the differences for purposes of winning the nomination. But I wish there had been more time spent the day after impeachment on that discussion.
HARLOW: Yes. So that's an interesting point because, David, you heard Andrew Yang say last night to all of his fellow Democrats on stage and off, you guys are too obsessed with impeachment.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think Bob is fundamentally right, though, and that is everybody wants to size up these Democratic candidates in comparison to Trump. And it's not too early to begin making the case or framing what that competition is. Joe Biden needs to say here's how my campaign will be different from Trump's, and here's how -- especially my presidency will be different from Trump's, and persuade people that he has the more attractive. I think that would help him.
The fact that Trump is closing in on this CNN poll is fascinating to think that an impeached president actually is drawing closer to his rivals.
HARLOW: Yes.
GERGEN: And it suggests this is going to be a very, very tight race. I did think last night, I'd be curious about Bob's view, I thought that both Biden and Klobuchar were more relaxed and I thought they had better nights. It made you wonder, is that a possible ticket? Does she help him or does he need to go to an African-American to go more diversity? You clearly need -- two white guys are not going to cut it at the top of the Democratic ticket. HARLOW: Yes. Speaking of Klobuchar, let's play this moment from last
night and I'll tell you why it reminds me of an election long ago. So here's an exchange between Senator Klobuchar and Mayor Buttigieg.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In the last debate, Mayor, you basically mocked the hundred years of experience on the stage. And I have not denigrated your experience as a local official. I have been one.
BUTTIGIEG: You know --
KLOBUCHAR: I just think you should respect our experience.
BUTTIGIEG: Sorry. You actually did denigrate my experience, Senator, and it was before the break and I was going to let it go because we've got bigger fish to fry here but you implied that my --
KLOBUCHAR: Oh, I don't think we have bigger fish to fry than picking a president of the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: OK. So Klobuchar saying, I have not denigrated your experience as a local official. Reminded me of maybe a Minnesota nice way of this exchange between Reagan and Mondale. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, FORMER UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: I will not make age an issue of this campaign.
[09:10:03] I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: What do you think, Bob?
BARNETT: I think Amy Klobuchar had her best night and had a very good night. I think that as primary and caucus-goers look at this process, we've had six debates. We're going to have 114 more. I think that they are looking at electability, but I am also looking at governability, if that's a word. And I think that we have to find, as Democrats, a candidate who can win in the general election.
But I think more and more, as we see what's going on particularly as I say the day after impeachment, people are looking at who can govern. And to me, experience, maybe it's because I'm getting very old, experience is very important. And there are people on that stage with superb experience and there are people on that stage with far lesser experience.
HARLOW: Yes. You are younger by the day, Bob. BARNETT: Thank you, Poppy.
HARLOW: David, I just want you to weigh in on this before we go because it's very important. Diversity or the lack thereof on the stage last night. Listen to this from Andrew Yang who was the only person of color up there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW YANG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's both an honor and disappointment to be the lone candidate of color on the stage tonight. I grew up the son of immigrants, and I had many racial epithets used against me as a kid but black and Latinos have something much more powerful working against them than words. They have numbers. The average net worth of a black household is only 10 percent that of a White household. For Latinos it's 12 percent.
If you are a black woman you're 320 percent more likely to die from complications in childbirth. These are the numbers that define race in our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: I was really glad, David, to hear the issue of maternal mortality rates especially among black women in America brought up because I don't think it's been brought up enough last night. But what does this mean, big picture, for the state of the Democratic Party, the lack of diversity and also what the DNC should do -- and Bob, you can weigh in here, too, David, I'll begin with you -- on participation criteria?
GERGEN: Well, let's say a couple of things. One on the diversity. You could see from the various speeches there during the impeachment process how white the Republican Party has become and how diversified the Democratic Party has become. It's a very different party. And what's critical to Democrats is to be able to mobilize those various elements of the party whether it's people of color or whether it's the young, whether it's suburban women. And also, frankly, and women who live in big cities.
I think that's really, really important. But you need to get those groups mobilized, and you need a ticket that can get them excited. That's one of the things that Buttigieg has been facing and he needs to build --
HARLOW: Right. Yes.
GERGEN: He's trying to break into that vote. On the presentation side, I just want to say, two things quick. I thought that moving screen behind the candidates was a bad idea. They ought to ditch that and just keep a flat screen. Second thing was, when I first saw Joe Biden last night, I said, who made him up? He just appeared so much older when he first -- he was fine at the debate. But I just thought the lighting and the makeup didn't work for him.
HARLOW: OK. Bob? BARNETT: Quick comment on the criteria. Tom Perez and his team at
the DNC set forth clear criteria that were transparent and nobody objected. They measured two things. They measured voter appeal and they measured the ability to raise funds. Both of which are pretty important if you're going to defeat the opponent in the general election.
Those criteria have resulted in some very good people being eliminated. I'd point to Michael Bennet as one, Cory Booker as another. I hope we don't change the criteria, if you will, for situational ethics to help one person or another. I think if you have criteria and they are fair and they evenly apply, they should continue to be applied as long as they measure what to me is important which is the ability to get votes and the ability to raise money.
HARLOW: David Gergen, Bobby Barnett, thank you both. Happy holidays.
GERGEN: Thank you.
HARLOW: Hope you get a little R and R next week.
BARNETT: Thank you.
HARLOW: We appreciate it, gentlemen.
BARNETT: Thank you, Poppy.
HARLOW: We'll see you in the new year.
All right, those Democratic candidates may challenge the idea the U.S. economy is roaring. But there is a great new poll out for the president. And it shows 76 percent of you disagree they -- 76 percent of you think the economy is doing really, really well. The best number in two decades in a week dominated by impeachment coverage.
Also, a top evangelical magazine calls for the president to be removed from office. This morning, the president responds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:15:00]
HARLOW: All right, welcome back. President Trump says he wants an immediate trial in the Senate. But right now, what that trial will look like and actually when it will begin is completely up in the air. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has put a hold on sending over those articles of impeachment to the Senate. She says she wants to see the upper chamber hold a quote, "fair trial".
What does that exactly mean? We don't totally know yet. Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California who sits on the Judiciary and Intelligence Committees joins me. Appreciate you being here before you leave --
REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): Of course, good morning --
HARLOW: For the holidays. Thank you. Thank you.
SWALWELL: Of course --
HARLOW: So, you have said that the speaker has the right to hold off on sending those articles over to the Senate. But I'm wondering, are you comfortable with an indefinite hold on the constitutional process?
[09:20:00]
SWALWELL: What we believe is that the speaker and the American people should have assurances that there's going to be a fair trial, and that the outcome is not going to be rigged. And I think that's also something that we owe to the witnesses who risked their livelihood, their careers, their lives to come forward and describe what the president did to abuse his office.
And to just throw out what they said and not pursue the evidence that they had led us to, that the president has blocked, I think would be unfortunate. And so, it's early, the president has only been impeached for, you know, two days, and I hope this is something that can be sorted out soon.
HARLOW: What would give you that assurance then, congressman? For example, would you be comfortable with Nancy Pelosi sending over those articles to the Senate without McConnell agreeing to hear from any of those four witnesses that Schumer has proposed?
SWALWELL: So, you know, I'll leave that to Speaker Pelosi. I will just say in 1999, on CNN, Senator McConnell during the Clinton impeachment trial said that trials should have witnesses. And --
HARLOW: Yes --
SWALWELL: He was arguing that there should be witnesses at that trial. And I think he was right then, he is right now. And this upcoming trial should provide assurances that witnesses will be called -- more witnesses will be called --
HARLOW: Meanwhile, he did -- he did say that, and Jim Sciutto; my colleague played that on our show yesterday. But just following your sort of logic here, then, what about Chuck Schumer who, back then, in '99 said no witnesses, and no new evidence in the impeachment trial of President Clinton? Was he also right then or is he right now?
SWALWELL: I would not agree that he was right then. I think he's right now, that this issue -- that there's an issue here where there are four witnesses the president have blocked that Senator Schumer has identified who are relevant, and we could learn more from them. We sent them over a powerful case, but if any senator has doubt hearing from Mick Mulvaney or John Bolton, that would be very powerful evidence.
And 70 percent of Americans said this week that the president should stop blocking witnesses. And I think Senator McConnell should hear those Americans. HARLOW: You've seen the new CNN polling out earlier this week, and it
shows not only a drop in support nationally for impeachment, just in a month, down 5 percent from November to December. But what really has struck us is when you look among Democrats, that their support for impeaching and removing the president from office, yes, it is still 77 percent, but Congressman, it's down 13 points. It's down from 90 percent in November. Why do you think that is?
SWALWELL: Well, and I've seen, you know, a "Fox" poll which had support for impeachment and removal at 50 percent. You know, the polls are around the 45 percent to 50 percent area. I would say, Poppy, Democrats that I've talked to are a little demoralized when they hear the Senate Majority leader say that the outcome is going to be rigged, and that he is not going to be impartial.
I think that gives people a lack of faith in the system and it may make them think, well, you know, why support something when the outcome is rigged. They expect the senators to still hear the evidence. And I think that is intentional by --
HARLOW: Yes --
SWALWELL: Senator McConnell which just brings down confidence --
HARLOW: Except this polling -- well, this polling was just -- I would just note before we move on this polling that I just referenced was done before McConnell made those comments on "Fox". Finally, to you, and you've been asked this by a number of my colleagues at CNN, but I'm going to give it another shot, congressman, it's the holidays and I'm wondering if you'll give us a little bit more here --
SWALWELL: Give you a gift, yes --
HARLOW: There you go, you told my colleague John Berman this week, when it comes to selecting impeachment managers, quote, "I think you want to send over your best." So, are you one of the best, and would you like to be an impeachment manager?
SWALWELL: I do think we should send over our best. I'm going to continue to do what helps my constituents and helps the Congress hold the president accountable and, Poppy, that's truly the speaker's call. And again, I'll do whatever I'm asked because I really do believe that no one is above the law.
I made that case 36 times in a courtroom, and I got 36, you know, verdicts that held people accountable when I was a prosecutor. And I feel like I have been a part of a team that has effectively made that case in the Congress.
HARLOW: Sounds like you kind of want the job. Am I on the right path?
SWALWELL: Well, I want to keep being helpful in stopping this president from corrupting everything we value.
HARLOW: Thank you, Congressman Swalwell, have a nice -- SWALWELL: Of course --
HARLOW: Holiday with you --
SWALWELL: My pleasure, you, too --
HARLOW: And your family.
SWALWELL: Thanks, Poppy, thanks, Jim, see you guys --
HARLOW: Talk soon. The president's not so secret weapon for the 2020 race, it's the economy stupid. Remember that line? White House trade adviser Peter Navarro is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:25:00]
HARLOW: All right, welcome back. Major news for the economy. The house passed the president's trade deal with Canada and Mexico this week, same week as he's impeached. And new numbers show the economy grew 2.1 percent in the third quarter. There was a strong jobs report in November.
The stock market remains resilient, and voters are noticing a new CNN poll finds 76 percent feel the economy is in very or somewhat good condition. That is the highest rating in almost two decades. With me now, White House trade adviser Peter Navarro. Those are good numbers, Peter, glad to have you here --
PETER NAVARRO, DIRECTOR OF TRADE & MANUFACTURING POLICY, UNITED STATES: They're great numbers, Poppy, let's go for it.
HARLOW: All right, glad to have you here to talk about all of it. So, let me just begin --
NAVARRO: My pleasure --
HARLOW: With you, USMCA. This is a big deal, this is a big accomplishment. House passed it, Senate will take it up in the new year. But the "Wall Street Journal" editorial board of all places says in many respects, it's worse than NAFTA, and will result --
NAVARRO: Yes --
HARLOW: In quote, "higher production costs and protection for politically influential industries, won't help workers." What do you make of that?
NAVARRO: Well, it is the "Wall Street Journal", they never saw a job in America.
[09:30:00]
