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Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) Clash In Senate Trial Standoff; Washington Post reports, White House Officials Feared Putin Influenced Trump On Ukraine; Democratic Candidates Face Off In Final Debate Of Year. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 20, 2019 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: -- break without a deal.

[10:00:01]

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says talks with Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer are stuck. They are in impasse. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, at this point, is not yet sending over the impeachment articles to the Senate until she thinks that the trial will be a fair one.

Let's begin on Capitol Hill with the latest. CNN Senior Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju is back with us. How long could this impasse last?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's uncertain. But I can tell you what we're hearing behind the scenes from our sources is that the House Democrats are preparing over the recess for the possibility that the trial could start the week of January 6th, which has been the expectation all along.

We don't know if that will be the case that it will actually start at that time. But what I'm hearing is that there's this prep work that will happen over the holiday break. The staff in the key committees in consultation with the Democratic leadership will prepare for a possibility that the trial could, in fact, start that second week of January.

But there are several steps that need to happen before that would take place, namely that there needs to be some resolution to the stand-off between Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell, the Senate leaders, over what the trial will look like. What Chuck Schumer wants is witnesses. He wants documents agreed to upfront. Mitch McConnell said those decisions should -- punted to made later. They should agree to only the nuts and bolts of the trial initially.

And to begin the trial, there needs to be a move by the House speaker. She needs to send over the articles that were approved by the House to the Senate. But she won't send over those articles until they name impeachment managers who will prosecute the case.

And she is saying that she can't name those managers until she understands how that process in the Senate will take place and the House can't -- they can't name those managers until the House actually votes to approve those managers.

And, Poppy, the House won't be back until January 7th to vote. So there are several steps that need to take place. But nevertheless, behind the scenes, I'm told, that this work is happening where the Democrats are saying it could still happen in that week and that's why they are preparing for this significant trial to determine whether the president should be removed from office. We'll see what ultimately happens, because the president wants a trial to happen.

The Republican leaders say that if the Democrats decide not -- don't send over the articles, that's fine with them because they don't want the trial. They are ready to move on to other issues. Poppy?

HARLOW: Yes. Okay. Manu, we'll see where this goes. Thank you very much. Do you get a little break, Manu? You never get a vacation. All right, Manu is already gone. That's the big question. Let's hope Manu gets a break.

Boris Sanchez is with us now at the White House. So what is the White House saying this morning, because the president wrote that he wants this to happen immediately?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy. The president wants to expedite this process. And he's frustrated and angry not only over being impeached but now that the Senate trial that he's been asking for for weeks may potentially be delayed. The White House strategy here is effectively is stunted by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi holding back these articles of impeachment.

Now, the president has been asking allies what is she doing. There are also questions, Poppy, about whether Pat Cipollone, the White House Counsel, should lead the president's defense in a Senate trial. Now, the president asking allies what they think of Pat Cipollone in recent days. Sources indicate that some allies are concerned that Cipollone may not give the president the T.V. moments that he's looking for. And as you know, Poppy, the president wants a show.

There are also questions about how much involvement some Republicans in the House should have, some of the president's allies in the House should have, some of the president's allies in the House should have in the Senate trial, people like Jim Jordan and Mark Meadows. Of course, there is no indication yet that they will. But that's an open question here at the White House.

As for the two articles of impeachment, we can expect that on obstruction of Congress, the president is likely going to argue executive privilege. We're told that they're going to point to previous Democrat administrations that have withheld testimony and documents from Congress. And on the issue of abuse of power, more of what we've already heard from the White House, the president likely to argue that his call with President Zelensky of Ukraine was perfect. Poppy?

HARLOW: Yes. Well, if they're talking about the Obama administration and fast and furious and Eric Holder, eventually, they were compelled to hand over a lot of those documents. Boris, thank you very much. With me now, CNN Senior Political Analyst Ron Brownstein and former federal prosecutor Harry Litman. Good morning, gentlemen.

Harry, where does this go? It's like Pelosi wants a trial. I mean, it's not likely she's going to get the kind of trial and the witnesses that she and Schumer want. And McConnell is saying he's not impartial. And the articles are sticking with her and there's no timeframe for when she's going to send them over to the Senate and everyone is leaving Washington. So where does this go?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Right, of course, vacation. Look, I'm not sure how unlikely it is. But in any event, she's got this teeny bit of leverage that once you get into the Senate, Schumer can huff and puff, but they know well that McConnell will be an absolute tyrant and give him nothing.

[10:05:03]

So he might have moved too quickly, did McConnell to say, this is going to be partial and I'm going to try to make it happen quickly.

What she needs is three, three Republicans in favor of some kind of witnesses. And it's interesting, Poppy, there's something like 70 percent of the country that right now polls in favor of it. And if you do the math, that means some of the very hard core Trump base is even saying that. So I don't know if it's a hopeless mission, but it's going to be a war of attrition very quickly.

The last question, there is no specific time limit, but she has to constitutionally, at some point, send them over.

HARLOW: I mean, you make a good point. And, Ron Brownstein, to you, Francis Rooney, a Republican lawmaker, yes, he's retiring, but he's pretty conservative. He told Jim on the show earlier this week he liked these folks to testify, right, people like Mulvaney. So there are Republicans in Congress who think more information is not bad.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. And the question is whether they will kind of go with their institutional kind of considerations or the partisan considerations in the end. I mean, there was a lot of focus on the 31 Democrats in the House who represent districts that Trump carried in 2016. All but two of them ended up voting for impeachment. Now, the shoe was on the other foot because we have Republicans in swing states for 2020 like Cory Gardener in Colorado and Susan Collins in Maine and Martha McSally in Arizona.

And they, on the one hand, are very unlikely to break from the president on the ultimate issue. But I think they do need to convey to their voters they are taking this seriously. And so, to some extent, the balance has been reversed in terms of which party faces the tougher political consideration. Although there are a few Democrats, particularly Doug Jones in Alabama, Joe Manchin of West Virginia will be cross-pressured as well.

HARLOW: There are two sort of lanes on that issue. You have Jim Clyburn yesterday on this network saying he could stomach holding the articles indefinitely if they don't feel like they're going to get a fair trial here in the Senate. And then you have some other Republican senators who have said in the last 24 hours, I don't know how long can go here, right -- Democrat senators, excuse me, saying, I don't know how long you can wait here.

How long do you think, Harry, the Democrats can wait before at least optically becomes a problem for them, that you said we have to expedite this, we have to move to impeach now because the 2020 election is at risk and then saying, well, we're just not moving forward in the Senate right now?

LITMAN: It depends completely if they can win the war for public opinion. This is about fairness and witnesses and not gamesmanship. So, two, three weeks, the pressure gets greater. And as you mentioned, there are certain, especially Democratic House members who are very nervous. They don't want to go in campaign having put their stakes in this and then nothing happening.

But I think Pelosi needs to try to keep it on the high ground, Schumer too. Schumer said this morning something about the chief justice's schedule. No, no, no. This is about witnesses and a fair trial. And if the majority stays with them, the pressure remains on McConnell.

HARLOW: What are you looking for, Ron Brownstein, in terms of the impact on 2020 and the impact on politics? Because impeachment is a political process and it has political implications for both parties. And if you look at the new CNN polling, you saw it this morning, the president is gaining ground in head-to-head match ups to the top leading Democrats in the 2020 race right now and it is those Democrats that are slipping, not the president.

BROWNSTEIN: As I wrote yesterday, the president's re-election, I think, is on a knife's edge between widening satisfaction over the economy and pervasive doubts about his values and his character and his respect for the rule of law.

I mean, what you saw in the CNN poll, as in other polls, is there's a significant increase in the share of Americans who say the economy is excellent or good and that inevitably lifts every president. But as we've talked about before, Poppy, if you go back to '04, 90 percent of the people who called the economy excellent or good voted for George W. Bush for re-election. In 2012, 90 percent of them voted Obama for re-election.

In the Quinnipiac poll this weekend, and I'm sure when we get the numbers in the CNN poll, 40 percent of the people who say the economy is excellent or good still say they disapprove of President Trump. And that is largely because of the kind of behavior that we're talking about in this scandal.

So he's got this enormous tailwind of widening economic satisfaction but he still has a headwind of doubts about the way he comports himself as president, and that leaves us right, I think, on kind of the knife's edge, as I said, where he is certainly in the game, but his approval rating is not rising as fast as positive assessments of the economy, and that's where you can measure, I think, that the cost of the kind of behavior that we're witnessing in this Ukraine scandal.

HARLOW: It's a great point, right? History -- it has not been like that.

[10:10:00]

You have a great economy and it helps your approval. Yes, all right.

Thank you both, Harry Litman, Ron Brownstein, have a good holiday. Thank you so much.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks, Poppy.

HARLOW: Still to come, the impeachment trial, as we just talked about, is in limbo as Nancy Pelosi holds off on sending those articles to the Senate. What is her game plan?

And the White House rejecting a new bill aimed at deterring and punishing Russia for a host of actions. Why the Trump administration says this legislation is unnecessary.

Plus, our Gary Tuchman has watched every Democratic presidential debates this time around with the same group of undecided Democratic voters in Iowa. He will join us with what they are saying after the latest showdown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She just comes across as having thoughtful specific answers and not rehearsed talking points.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the others were bickering, she was there to diffuse it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

HARLOW: Welcome back.

So this morning, as many in Congress head out of town for the holidays, questions grow about House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's strategy of not yet handing over the articles of impeachment to the Senate. She's says she's waiting to have assurance that there will be a fair impartial trial in the Senate.

With me now is Democratic Congressman Gerry Connolly of Virginia. He sits on both the Foreign Affairs and Oversight Committees. Thanks for being here, Congressman. I appreciate it.

REP. GERRY CONNOLLY (D-VA): My pleasure, Poppy.

HARLOW: So I don't know. I mean, Schumer and McConnell say there's an impasse. Pelosi is not showing her cards in terms of what would prompt her to send over the articles of impeachment to the Senate. Are you comfortable with an indefinite hold on the constitutional process?

CONNOLLY: Well, we might hope that it's not indefinite. I think what Speaker Pelosi correctly is trying to do is have some sense of what the rules of engagement are going to be in the trial. Let's remember it's a trial in the Senate. To have perspective jurors, namely senators like Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham, announce in advance that they don't care what the evidence is, they're going to acquit. If that were a trial in a court of law, you would be dismissed from the jury as not eligible because you come into it with a prior bias.

HARLOW: No, I hear you. Look, I'm a daughter of a litigator, right? I've been in many courtrooms. But it's not a courtroom, right? It's an inherently political process.

CONNOLLY: No, but it is a trial.

HARLOW: No, I hear you. Trust me. All senators take the oath to be in impartial. I'm not arguing with you on that. But I just wonder what is it going to take. If you were Speaker Pelosi, what would be your threshold for feeling like it's fair enough to send over the articles? Because McConnell is not going to take back nor can he take back his comments on Fox that he's not an impartial juror. So what is it going to take?

CONNOLLY: Well, hopefully to buy some space to allow the Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer, and the Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, to come together and reach some agreement on how to proceed as their predecessors did in the Clinton impeachment process. But she can't do it indefinitely because, frankly, we don't have that leverage, as Mitch McConnell said earlier last night, he doesn't care if the articles of impeachment never reach him. So we don't have a lot of leverage and we know that. But on the other hand --

HARLOW: Well, Jim Clyburn said the same thing. He said he is okay with an indefinite hold.

CONNOLLY: Well, I don't think that Democrats, especially from, really, swing and competitive districts who really put themselves out there on the line, I don't think they feel the same way. I think they want to see this process come to some kind of a conclusion.

HARLOW: I think you're right.

Look at the polling this week, CNN's polling. It not only shows that there's a decline in sort of national support for impeaching and removing the president from 45 to 50 percent. What was striking to me was what Democratic voters said. Yes, 77 percent of them still want the president impeached or removed from office, but that's down 13 points from 90 percent in November. I'm interested in why you think that is? What's the why for you on that?

CONNOLLY: You know, I don't know that I read a lot of profundity into a particular poll result. These things have gone up and down. I will remind you that the support for impeachment nationwide was 36 percent in late July and early August.

HARLOW: I hear you on that. It didn't move for Nixon until like a month before. But just -- what's going on in Democrats' minds that there's a 13-point drop in a month?

CONNOLLY: I think partly a lot of Democrats are concerned that as we get into the presidential re-election year, we don't want impeachment impeding the ability, frankly, to compete and hopefully remove Trump from office that way. I hear that a lot from Democrats, a concern about that. So that may be part of the reflection.

And as one of your panelists said just before me, the economy obviously has a positive impact overall polling, even with Democrats.

HARLOW: The economy is doing great. Yes, it's hard to argue that.

[10:20:00]

It's not perfect for everyone, but it is improving. Just a final question to you because --

CONNOLLY: If I could interrupt. As you pointed out, it's not performing the way politically Trump would like it and not performing the way it has for other president.

HARLOW: Because there are consequences for the things you do and say.

CONNOLLY: That's right.

HARLOW: Let me ask you a final question. You're on the Foreign Affairs Committee, this is -- so, obviously, you have an important voice on this. What do you make of The Washington Post reporting overnight that President Trump's belief that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election the he brought with that call with President Zelensky, that belief was influenced by Vladimir Putin during a private meeting at the G20 in Germany in 2017, the president saying, quote, Putin told me?

CONNOLLY: That was chilling when I read that, Poppy. Unquestionably, you accept as an authoritative source, Vladimir Putin? And it's led, frankly, to impeachment, because the president acted on that belief with a bogus, debunked theory about Ukrainian rather than Russian interference in the U.S. election. And there were all kinds of pieces to that conspiracy theory that have been, of course, disproved.

CrowdStrike, the company that managed the server for the DNC, was in Ukraine. Well, no, it's actually in California. It's headed by a Ukrainian. Well, no. Actually, it's headed by a Russian. These are proven facts but none of them seem to have penetrated Mr. Trump's consciousness. And, tragically, for him, he acted on it.

HARLOW: I think my Christmas wish, if you will, is that in 2020, facts matter even more to every American because they're so important and they can get so distorted.

CONNOLLY: I agree. HARLOW: Congressman Gerry Connolly, happy holiday. Thanks very much.

CONNOLLY: You too, Poppy. Thank you.

HARLOW: 2020 Democratic candidates make their pitch just weeks before the Iowa caucus. We'll talk to Iowa voters about what they thought of the Debate last night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

HARLOW: All right. 2020 Democrats back on the trail today after knocking out the sixth Democratic debate just one day after President Trump's impeachment. And despite weeks of insults and unfounded allegations from Republicans about his son's role in Ukraine, former Vice President Joe Biden once again highlighted his desire to work with Republicans across the aisle. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If anyone has reason to be angry with the Republicans and not want to cooperate is me, the way they've attacked me, my son and my family. I have no love. But the fact is we have to be able to get things done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN Political Correspondent M.J. Lee is with me now. We were just chatting about this in the break a little bit. Who stood out to you last night?

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I think, first of all, the fact that the stage was smaller than it has ever been, that really showed. I think it allowed each of the candidates to really dig into their answers, flex different muscles and engage their rivals a little bit more. And speaking of, I think, Pete Buttigieg clearly ended up getting a whole lot of incoming. It's something that we expected to see happen at the last debate and then we didn't.

But then this time around, his rivals were ready, whether it was Elizabeth Warren going after him on fundraising or Amy Klobuchar going after him on what she said was his lack of experience. He ended up taking a lot of incoming, but he was also really ready, right? He knew that those attacks would probably come and he was ready with those answers.

HARLOW: He was.

LEE: And I think as he was getting those attacks, Joe Biden actually ended up avoiding a lot of the conflict in this debate, even though he is leading nationally still.

HARLOW: One of the candidates lobbing some of those stinging attacks on Mayor Pete Buttigieg was Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. We've just learned in the last few minutes that she has brought in $500,000 in online donations since the debate ended last night. That's her biggest sort of post-debate haul in just a few hours. Was this what she needed?

LEE: I think she had a very strong night last night from leaning into her Midwestern roots. I mean, that was not a mistake. That was a message she wanted to send that the states that Hillary Clinton lost last time around, that she could be the one to win them.

HARLOW: Well, she's won very Trumpy -- she won Michelle Bachman's district in Minnesota. She has a record being able to do that in the state, at least.

LEE: And this really is the candidates really pivoting to the general election. They're not just concerned about the primaries at this point, even though they have not happened yet. They always want to take home the message to the voters that once it is me versus President Trump, I'm going to be the person who doesn't sort of fall to the mistakes that happened in 2016 that didn't allow a Democrat to enter the White House.

HARLOW: The candidates were asked the final question of the night, which was an interesting, creative one. If they would ask for forgiveness from a fellow candidate, what would it be? And I think the answers were striking.

LEE: Yes. This was such an interesting question. The question was would you ask for forgiveness from a rival on stage or would you give a gift. And all men on the stage chose the answer of gift. They said I would give my book or the gift of my idea. The two women on stage went for forgiveness.

[10:30:01]

I actually think we have that sound bite, so let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will ask for forgiveness. I know that sometimes I get --