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Democratic Debate Winners and Losers?; President Trump's Anger Over Impeachment. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 20, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:31]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Happy holidays to you.

So much news to cover this hour.

We begin with an invitation from speaker Nancy Pelosi, who has extended this invitation for President Trump to give his annual State of the Union address on February 4, meaning Speaker Pelosi has asked the president to come to the same chamber where members just impeached him two days ago.

And, of course, President Trump has now accepted said invite.

All of this is happening in spite of the fact that President Trump is -- quote, unquote -- "mad as hell" over being in impeachment limbo. He's insisting on an immediate impeachment trial in the Senate.

But Speaker Pelosi so far has been withholding the articles of impeachment from the Senate.

So, starting there, let's go to Kaitlan Collins. She's our White House correspondent.

And, Kaitlan, we know the president heads to Florida tonight for the holidays. And you have some new reporting that some White House officials are worried about his time away? What are you hearing?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they already get a little bit annoyed, maybe a little irksome when the president has these trips, because, of course, when he's at Mar-a-Lago at his private club, he's surrounded by all of his old buddies, who have a lot of ideas about how he should be doing things.

And the White House -- and, sometimes, they say privately that it drives them a little bit crazy.

Now, that's more of just an annoyance. The concern this time is coming because, of course, this vacation for the president is coming at a critical time ahead of that Senate trial and as it's looming over him, whenever it's going to be, something he certainly wants to know, according to Lindsey Graham, who described him as mad as hell after the two of them spoke last night. Now, the concern is that there are still some big decisions to be made

for the president in his defense strategy, who it is it's going to be opening at the trial, closing, presenting evidence. All of that still has to be determined, as the White House has been working through all of that.

So the concern that aides have is, the longer the president is at his private club in South Florida, the more time there is for these outsiders who are outside of the White House, outside of this nucleus of this defense strategy that they have been working on for the last several weeks, are going to be able to influence him.

Now, the question is what exactly the president's going to take from that? What decisions are going to be made while he's down there? He did say yesterday he does think that his White House counsel, Pat Cipollone, is going to be the person leading that defense, though you're hearing from people like Senator Lindsey Graham, who say that they believe the president should bring in someone from outside the political realm who has a pretty good knowledge of constitutional law.

Now, whether or not the president is going to do that is still something that's open for discussion. But, of course, it's something to keep an eye on as he's spending these two weeks at Mar-a-Lago, a lot of critical decisions to be made -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Kaitlan, thank you.

The next steps in this impeachment process are so hard to discern because the man in charge of running a Senate trial is at odds with nearly everyone else involved.

I'm talking about the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell. He can't agree to the ground rules with Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, in part because Senator Schumer wants to call four White House insiders as witnesses.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Leader McConnell is plotting the most rushed, least thorough, and most unfair impeachment trial in modern history.

His plan, to prevent House managers from calling witnesses to prove their case, is a dramatic break from precedent.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): He wants to break from that unanimous bipartisan precedent and force an all-or-nothing approach.

My colleague wants a special pre-trial guarantee of certain witnesses whom the House Democratic themselves did not bother to pursue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And, of course, you know this, they can't start the trial until House Speaker Nancy Pelosi formally sends over the articles of impeachment to the Senate. Now, some Democrats have suggested holding them in the House as

leverage, a decision that Leader McConnell mocked on the Senate floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): When we see what their process is, we will know who and how many we want to send over. Not until then.

MCCONNELL: I admit, I'm not sure what leverage there is in refraining from sending us something we do not want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The majority leader clearly seems in no rush to start a trial, which even puts him at odds with President Trump, who is tweeting that he wants an immediate trial.

Sources are also telling CNN that the president wants the trial to be a dramatic spectacle, with live witnesses who will defend him. But the majority leader has signaled he'd like it to be as short as possible, so he get on with the business of the Senate.

[15:05:04]

Regardless of what in any impeachment trial, the news is good for President Trump when it comes to the economy. A new CNN poll out today shows 76 percent of Americans now have a favorable view of the economy.

And that same poll finds 55 percent approve of the USMCA trade deal between the U.S., Mexico and Canada, which, by the way, passed in the House just yesterday. Add to all of that new GDP numbers showing the economy grew 2.1 percent in the third quarter, and all signs point toward a strong economy heading into the election year.

But will that be enough to win in 2020?

Michael D'Antonio is a CNN contributor and Trump biographer.

So, Michael, happy holidays to you. Thanks for talking to me.

MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Happy holidays, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I just ran through those numbers. I mean, do you think Trump is farther from or closer to reelection after this past week?

D'ANTONIO: Well, it's really hard to tell, isn't it, because under normal circumstances, a president who was impeached would be pretty well disabled by that action in Congress.

But he's very good at dividing us roughly 50/50 around that issue, and he is going into an election year with a very strong economy. And, historically, I don't know that there's any president who's sought reelection in the modern era with an economy this good who hasn't been reelected.

So, only Donald Trump could be in this predicament, where things look so good for him economically, but yet his future is unclear.

BALDWIN: How about -- just thinking back to a couple of nights ago in that rally he held in Michigan, you have certainly seen his flurry of tweets. What does that tell you about the president's mind-set and his temperament now that he's been impeached?

D'ANTONIO: Well, I think it tells you that he is very upset.

As much as he blusters and presents us with this bravado, his display at that rally, his tweets, but also the letter that he sent to the speaker and to members of Congress, the six-page letter, which I think went along with the White House Christmas card, indicated that he wanted to establish the record for posterity, for history.

So he knows that this is a terrible stain on his record, and that his name will forever be associated with impeachment. The strange thing to figure out here, and the difficult thing, is that he loves drama, and he loves crisis, he loves to fight.

So -- and he's also, I think, as much a show runner for a soap opera as he is the president of the United States. So we have to think of this like soap opera fans. What is he going to be planning for cliffhangers and reversals and surprise endings between now and November?

Because there's a lot of episodes yet to be filmed and be presented, and he's going to want to surprise us every day.

BALDWIN: Well, who knows what episode we're on. But there is a bit of a cliffhanger here, given what the House has done in holding these articles of impeachment, at least thus far.

And you mentioned that six-page diatribe from the president. Who was it addressed to? Speaker Nancy Pelosi. So here they are. You have Pelosi and Trump essentially playing this grand poker game.

And I'm wondering, from you, why do you think Nancy Pelosi so gets under the president's skin?

D'ANTONIO: Well, she knows how to play poker. And I don't think the president does.

What he knows how to do is bully people and bluff. But he's bluffing almost all the time. So if you're playing against someone who never really has a full deck -- let's put it that way -- it's pretty easy to get under his skin. It's pretty easy to predict what he's going to do.

Now, also, you have got to give Pelosi great credit for herding cats where her caucus is concerned. The Democrats historically have not been able to act as one, not been able to come together behind a speaker in this way.

But the president has created this sense of crisis, a belief that this is an emergency, that our democracy is under attack by a person who's got authoritarian desires. And I think the public sees that. And that's why there's been this dramatic move against him.

BALDWIN: Here's one of the things that I'm most curious about, because you think back to over the summer and the end of the Robert Mueller investigation, and then Mueller testifies.

And then what did the president do the next day? Got on the phone with Ukraine President Zelensky and asked for that favor. So I'm just playing it forward, Michael, and I'm curious. What does a post- impeached, but then acquitted Trump look like?

[15:10:00]

D'ANTONIO: Well, he is a shotgun and not a laser.

So there's not going to be one terrible thing that he does. There's going to be 1,000 terrible things that he does. The Ukraine scandal, I think, will continue to unfold. So we haven't seen all we're going to see from Lev Parnas and Igor and Rudy.

And we certainly haven't seen all that we're going to see from people within the White House and the administration who are distressed, appalled and agonized by what he's doing. So we haven't seen anything yet.

I think, between now and November, there will be many more scandals. It's going to get just as heated, and he will be even more defiant.

BALDWIN: Stay tuned to the next episode.

Michael D'Antonio, thank you.

D'ANTONIO: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next here on CNN, President Trump goes after a Christian magazine for saying he's morally lost and backing his impeachment.

Plus, I will talk to a lifelong conservative who says the Republican Party is now -- his words -- the evil party.

And, later, a CNN exclusive. A top official at the TSA is warning that agency that they have relaxed security procedures to speed up airport lines.

Don't miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:10]

BALDWIN: So we have been talking quite a bit about this uproar over the editorial in "Christianity Today," a magazine founded by the late evangelist Billy Graham.

And just last hour, I talked to the editor in chief of "Christianity Today," Mark Galli who wrote that President Trump is a leader of -- quote -- "grossly immoral character," and that he should be removed from office.

Galli grounds his criticism on the president's phone call to Ukraine seeking dirt on a political rival, and it doesn't end there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK GALLI, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "CHRISTIANITY TODAY": So it's unconstitutional. And because it's unconstitutional, it's almost, by nature, immoral, because the president is forsaking something he promised to uphold.

So, just in the most simple ways, it's immoral. But, of course, I make the argument larger than that, about his behavior on Twitter, about the type of people he has around him, about his attitude toward women, and other things he's done.

And it was a cumulative effect over many months and years. And I just felt like, if we didn't say something yesterday, we might not say it for a long time. So, I thought, let's do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's start there.

CNN political commentator Matt Lewis is a senior columnist over at The Daily Beast, where his latest article is titled, "I was a lifelong Republican. The GOP is now the evil party."

So, Matt, we will get into that in just a second.

But let me just begin with my conversation with Mark over at "Christianity Today." And I'm just curious, how surprised were you to see this magazine that really doesn't walk into the realm of politics come out with these words, like grossly immoral character, referencing Trump?

MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I was surprised.

I mean, I shouldn't be surprised, because I think that the case that Mark made is actually completely true. Donald Trump is a person of bad character. He does a lot of bad things and he did something that is clearly impeachable.

I think common sense demonstrates that. I think, if you're being intellectually honest, it's pretty obvious.

I am surprised, though, because so many evangelicals have bowed down to Donald Trump and have refused to tell the truth and to be intellectually honest and consistent, even though they criticized Bill Clinton for the same thing.

So I am surprised. I'm pleasantly surprised by this.

BALDWIN: Let's broaden it out to the party, because you certainly don't mince words either.

And how did the party of Lincoln and Reagan become evil and, as you put it, viscerally repellent?

LEWIS: It's a long, long story, and it's a sad one. I think that Donald Trump is a symptom of a lot of things.

But I would say, look, there's this old line about the -- they used to say the Democrats are the evil party, the Republicans are the stupid party. And I think maybe they have switched places.

When I was watching that impeachment ,and I heard Republicans talk about how this is Pearl Harbor, a day that will live in infamy, they compared Trump to Jesus, and so I guess that impeachment is the crucifixion.

They took a moment of silence for the 63 million Trump voters that were disenfranchised. It was so maudlin, so -- it insulted our intelligence so much. And this is how I used to feel when I heard Democrats playing these kind of emotional games.

BALDWIN: Yes.

LEWIS: And I was always a conservative person. That was my perspective. But now I'm hearing my team, allegedly, and I just -- it's repellent to hear the stuff that they're saying.

BALDWIN: So you also talk about something called the Big Lebowski defense, right?

(LAUGHTER)

LEWIS: Right.

BALDWIN: What do you mean by that?

So, there's a scene in "The Big Lebowski" where he says something like, well, that's just your opinion, man.

And there was a Republican congressman who made this argument I found really disturbing, where he said that an abuse of power is not a high crime and misdemeanor. It's just an opinion.

[15:20:02]

LEWIS: That is, for conservatives and Republicans....

BALDWIN: Crazy?

LEWIS: It's crazy, but it's also so hypocritical.

I mean, conservatives have talked about the importance of moral absolutes, that there's not your truth or my truth, there is just objective truth.

And now they're saying, like, this abuse of power is just an opinion? It's postmodernism run amuck. It's not the party of Reagan that I grew up with, certainly.

BALDWIN: Matt Lewis, always good to have your opinion on. Thank you very much.

LEWIS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Coming up next, Mayor Pete Buttigieg in the crosshairs at the Democratic debate for a high-end fund-raiser he attended at this fancy wine cave.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Billionaires in wine caves should not pick the next president.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I have never even been to a wine cave. I have been to the wind cave in South Dakota.

ANDREW YANG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They don't have to go shake the money tree in the wine cave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Pete Buttigieg's response to all of that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:59]

BALDWIN: Amid all the noise over impeachment, the Democratic presidential candidates are still trying to make sure they still are heard.

Seven of them got a chance last night at the Democratic debate, the final one of 2019. It showcased the fewest presidential contenders on one stage yet.

You had South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg, who has been rising in the polls. He took heat from both Senator Elizabeth Warren and others over his big-dollar donations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN: The mayor just recently had a fund-raiser that was held in a wine cave full of crystals and served $900-a-bottle wine.

Billionaires in wine caves should not pick the next president of the United States.

TIM ALBERTA, POLITICO: Mr. Mayor, your response.

PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, according to "Forbes" magazine, I am literally the only person on this stage who is not a millionaire or a billionaire.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) Your presidential campaign right now, as we speak, is funded in part by money you transferred, having raised it at those exact same big- ticket fund-raisers you now denounce.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's start there.

CNN political commentator Joan Walsh is national affairs correspondent for "The Nation." And M.J. Lee is a CNN political correspondent.

And just beginning with Mayor Buttigieg's response, Joan, he was ready. He knew they were going to come in on the attack on the wine cave. What do you make of his response?

JOAN WALSH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Brooke, first of all, I think we have to go back one step.

BALDWIN: OK.

WALSH: He was not mentioned by Elizabeth Warren. He actually -- she was talking about people who charge money for selfies. A lot of them do it. People who get thousands-of-dollar donations. A lot of them do it.

He stepped out there and said, I think I'm being talked about and I want to respond. So he did ask for that. He did create that moment. He did have that ready. It's interesting. It's questionable.

He wanted to step out and be the defender of big donors and also call her on what he perceives as hypocrisy. He made it happen. We will see -- I don't think it's really good to be the wine cave candidate, but we're going to see how it rolls out from here.

BALDWIN: OK.

M.J. LEE, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Who doesn't like a good wine cane?

WALSH: Well, I mean, we enjoy it, but we don't want to be the candidate of the wine cave.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Biden had a pretty good debate. Let me pivot to Biden.

We have this brand-new seat and poll out today. He's actually the only one who is definitively beating President Trump within the margin of error.

So, M.J., just talk to me about his strengths going into this -- really this final month of campaigning.

LEE: Well, I think last night, one of the benefits of Buttigieg and Warren going after each other and Buttigieg in general getting so much incoming was the fact that Biden was able to avoid a lot of conflict. BALDWIN: Took it off him.

LEE: And I think what's really fascinating, if you look at the big picture of the national race right now, it is as though we have gone back to three months ago.

Biden is clearly the leader right now. We have Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren in the double digits sort of vying for that second- place spot, and then nobody else in the double digits.

It's as though sort of the momentum that Elizabeth Warren had has been erased. Sort of the dip that we saw with Sanders, that's also sort of gone. And it really speaks to Joe Biden's resiliency.

When he first got in the race, the big question was is, what he is entering into the race with his floor or his ceiling? And it turns out the electability question really, really matters, because so many of the Democratic voters are so driven by this question of, which Democratic candidate do I feel like can best beat Donald Trump?

BALDWIN: Did you want to jump in on that?

WALSH: Yes.

I mean, I think he looks more electable when he has a debate like he had last night. It was a strong debate. It wasn't just that he won by not losing or he won by being safe. He really went out there. He took some chances. He seemed coherent. He was passionate.

And I think I think that this feeds into -- I mean, he's not my candidate, necessarily. I come from the progressive wing of the party, but we underestimate him at our peril. I mean, he has solidly been the leader, and I don't see anything that happened last night denting that.

BALDWIN: I want to talk about the women on stage. And so let me just get to this clip.

The candidates were given this choice in their final question, ask for forgiveness from one of their rivals on stage or offer a gift.

And so the men all chose to offer a gift. And here are how Senator Warren and Senator Klobuchar responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN: I will ask for forgiveness. I know that, sometimes, I get really worked up.

(LAUGHTER)

WARREN: And, sometimes

[15:30:00]