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Trump Impeached; Negotiations for Trump's Senate Trial Remain at an Impasse; Interview with Rep. James Clyburn (D) South Carolina; Democrats' Lead over Trump Narrows; Six Injured after Two Carnival Cruise Ships Crash; Evangelical Publication Calls for Trump's Removal from Office; Democrats and White House Prep for Senate Trial amid Standoff; Appeals Court Rules Insurance Mandate Unconstitutional. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired December 21, 2019 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:19]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me.

I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

All right. This morning President Trump is at his Mar-A-Lago resort in Florida for the holidays preparing for his upcoming impeachment trial in the U.S. Senate. And this just two days after his impeachment in the House.

He accepted an invitation by Speaker Nancy Pelosi to give his annual State of the Union address on February 4th, a speech which could be overshadowed by his upcoming trial.

The President wants an immediate trial in the U.S. Senate, but the timing is up in the air right now as Democratic and Republican leaders clash over the rules. Some House Democrats are urging Pelosi to indefinitely withhold articles until Majority Leader -- Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell agrees to hold a fair trial.

CNN's Sarah Westwood is in West Palm Beach near the President's Florida home. So Sarah -- this wouldn't be the first time a president gives a State of the Union address in the midst of impeachment. What are you learning right now?

SARAH WESTWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right -- Fred.

And yesterday President Trump accepted House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's invitation for him to deliver the State of the Union on February 4th, 2020 which means that it could very well take place at the height of his trial in the Senate which is set, at this point, potentially sometime in January, although the timing of that, as you mentioned, is very fluid.

But this would not be the first time that a president delivered his State of the Union address on Capitol Hill as he was enduring an impeachment trial because that happened to former president Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton delivered his State of the Union address in 1999 just 12 days after senators were sworn in for his trial.

The President's State of the Union, though, will undoubtedly take place against the backdrop of tensions between the White House and Capitol Hill. At the moment House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is withholding those articles from the Senate as leverage to try to get Senate Republicans to hold what Democrats view as a fair trial -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: So, Sarah, what more can you tell us about, you know, a number now of Jewish lawmakers calling on one of the President's top advisers to be dismissed from his job?

WESTWOOD: That's right -- Fred.

25 Democratic Jewish lawmakers wrote to the President this week to call for the firing of top adviser Stephen Miller. Now, that's over emails that were leaked more than a month ago now from Miller's time in former Senator Jeff Sessions' office. Those all written before the election, but shows that Stephen Miller often shared content from white nationalist Websites that he had staunchly anti-immigrant views.

Now, those lawmakers didn't just want Miller fired because of those viewpoints. They also wanted to address what they saw as a poor response from the White House when those emails were first leaked. The White House responded by calling that criticism of Miller anti- Semitic because Miller is Jewish.

Those Democratic lawmakers said it was despicable that the White House in their eyes weaponized anti-Semitism to their political benefit -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Sarah Westwood -- keep us posted there from West Palm Beach. Thank you so much.

All right. Meantime, we still don't know who Speaker Pelosi will appoint to be a House manager -- plural -- in Trump's Senate trial. This comes as negotiations over the rules remain at a standstill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SENATE MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: I admit I'm not sure what leverage there is in refraining from sending us something we do not want. We'll see whether House Democrats ever want to work up the courage to actually take their accusations to trial.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Our founders when they wrote the constitution, they suspected that there could be a rogue president. I don't think they suspected that we'd have a rogue president and a rogue leader in the Senate at the same time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Let's talk about this impasse. Joining me right now, CNN reporter Marshall Cohen. Marshall -- good to see you. So where do we stand on the setting of a date for the U.S. Senate trial and who, you know, might Pelosi appoint to be the House managers?

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: Well, we're at a stand still. You know, you heard it right there. It's a war of words between Speaker Pelosi and Leader McConnell. And they're sort of taunting each other, taking shots, trading barbs, but it doesn't look like a lot of work is actually getting done right now as they try to set the parameters of that trial.

The big dispute on the table right now is will there be any witnesses called to testify.

[11:04:50]

COHEN: Democrats in the Senate have been pushing hard, trying to use whatever leverage they can to secure testimony from some of President Trump's most senior officials, including the former national security adviser John Bolton and the current acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney.

But Mitch McConnell has said, you know what, we don't need any more testimony. They had a long inquiry in the House. Let's just take care of business and not drag this out any longer than it needs to be.

So, Fred, right now it's kind of at a standstill.

And with regards to those House managers, you can expect to see some of those same faces that led the inquiry in the House, probably including the Intel chairman Adam Schiff, the Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler, and a group representing the diversity of the Democratic caucus.

WHITFIELD: So, Marshall, while Congress is on recess, I mean surely there are considerations that are being made. Perhaps Mitch McConnell might be reconsidering whether to entertain some of the witnesses on the witness list. Perhaps, you know, Pelosi might be rethinking for how long, you know, to hold on to, you know, handing over these articles.

What is expected to be happening during this holiday break? Are these leaders listening to their constituents? Are they, you know, counseling with each other? What could be happening?

COHEN: Well, one thing we know for sure, sources have told CNN that Democratic staff, some of them stayed back here in Washington to get ready for that potential trial because it could start as early as the first week of January if everybody gets their act together.

So a little bit of work behind the scenes. Probably some informal negotiations as well. And as you mentioned, those lawmakers will be back home. People are fired up in favor of this, against it, and they'll be listening and wondering did they make the right vote.

WHITFIELD: All right. Marshall Cohen -- thank you so much. COHEN: You bet.

WHITFIELD: All right. Let's talk further now with one of the key players in all of this right now -- Congressman James Clyburn. He is a Democratic congressman from South Carolina and serves as the majority whip in the House. Good to see you, Congressman, and happy holidays.

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC), HOUSE MAJORITY WHIP: Same to you. And thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: So after 17 witness testimonies now, six hours of lawmaker arguments on Wednesday, a House vote to impeach the President, the two articles have not been transmitted to the U.S. estimate Senate. Why do you remain steadfast in this approach?

CLYBURN: Because we think this process ought to be fair. There should be transparency. Everybody in the country ought to be able to look in on this process and be proud of it.

I do not see, and nobody in my caucus can see how we can be proud of the process when we have two senators -- one from our state of South Carolina-- saying we aren't interested in any facts. We aren't interested in bringing any witnesses. We aren't interested in being fair.

That is not anything that anybody in this country ought to be proud of. We have a process. We ought to go through that process. It ought to be transparent. It ought to be fair. And shouldn't have any semblance of a rigged system.

There's been too much in the history of this country about rigging courts, just going through a process knowing full well that you have a preordained outcome. We should not have a preordained outcome.

(CROSSTALKING)

WHITFIELD: And you're talking particularly because McConnell had said that this president, you know, will not be found guilty if there's a trial. That there would be no witnesses called. That has been his view in the last two weeks.

CLYBURN: That's exactly right. You know, I have a history, and I think that most people who watch your show are familiar with that history.

And for this leader of the Senate from Kentucky to be making such a pronouncement conjures up all kinds of things in my mind and many other people in this country. We ought to be about fairness. And that ought to be the way we go forward with this process.

WHITFIELD: So help some people understand the process, because the constitution does say the House has the power to impeach. The Senate has the power to hold trial. But nothing in the constitution, you know, stipulates the length in the delay, any delay in transmitting these articles. Is it possible that the articles are on indefinite hold, or is there a deadline?

CLYBURN: Well, I try to liken this legislative process to our judicial process. We, in the House of Representatives, act as what we would call a grand jury. You have probable cause, you're looking to see whether or not there is reason to send something to trial.

You don't have all your witnesses before the grand jury. You don't have the entire process before the grand jury. You're determining whether or not there's sufficient evidence to go to a trial.

[11:10:01]

CLYBURN: So that's what we did in the House. We found sufficient evidence to send this thing to the Senate for a trial. We were expecting and still are expecting the Senate to do its job. Put on a full, fair trial. Call the witnesses.

We have put forth four witnesses that we think ought to be called. They may not want to put two. But you cannot get zero --

(CROSSTALKING)

WHITFIELD: Including the chief of staff Mick Mulvaney --

CLYBURN: -- and they call it fail.

WHITFIELD: -- and former NSA, you know, John Bolton -- those are among the witnesses. If they are not called, if no witnesses are called, as Mitch McConnell has said, can you have a fair trial?

CLYBURN: No, absolutely not. And I think Mitch McConnell knows that. I think Lindsey Graham knows that. But I don't think they're interested in fairness. They are interested in a charade. They want to go through a process, mark time, and declare an outcome that they have already decided what it would be.

That is not the way you have a trial in this country, at least it should not be the way you have a trial. We are a nation of laws, not of one or two men. We are a nation of laws. We ought to live by those laws. We ought to have a process that everybody can be proud of.

Nobody can be proud of this thing that Mitch McConnell has put forward. And I really believe that the American people need to speak up.

I'm so glad that many fine people from the Jewish community are now speaking up about Stephen Miller. I was born and raised in the --

(CROSSTALKING)

WHITFIELD: Asking that he resign or at least be removed.

CLYBURN: That's exactly right. He should be. This guy is really a cancer on this country, not just this presidency. And the same thing is happening now with the evangelical community, the Christian community as I call it. I was born and raised in the (INAUDIBLE). I know what the bible says about a whole lot of things. And it's certainly isn't what Franklin Graham is saying. He must not be reading the same bible that I have read and the bible that his father preached from so much.

So I really believe that Christians and Jews are now beginning to speak up about the misrepresentation that's taking place by a few people smirching (ph) these two great religions. And they are the two great religions upon which this country is found.

Judeo Christian principles means a whole lot to me. I tell people all the time, my favorite verse of the bible is Micah 6:8 -- doing justice, love and mercy and being humble. And I have a favorite of the New Testament, Matthew 25:45. These two things, doing it for the least of the.

So Judeo-Christian principles are what we are built upon. They are being misrepresented by Franklin Graham and Stephen Miller. And it's time for Christians and Jews to speak out about this and let's put this country back on an even keel.

WHITFIELD: And then let me ask you too as it pertains to the impeachment, how Speaker Pelosi, you know, wants to delay these articles of impeachment, delay the naming of House managers, accusing the President and the Senator Majority Leader McConnell, you know, of joining forces to go rogue.

You know, McConnell has said that he is working with the White House, that a Senate trial would happen, you know, without those witnesses. And this was your point of view when asked earlier this week by my colleague, John Berman, on allowing this to go on as long as it takes. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: How long are you willing to wait?

CLYBURN: As long as it takes. Even if he doesn't come around to committing to a fair trial, keep those articles here. Keep it as long as it takes. At least we know and he's told you what he's going to do. Let's give him a fair trial and hang him. I mean it's the reverse of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So Congressman -- you're talking about McConnell saying, and I'm just going to reiterate what you said. You know, he's told you what he's going to do. It's almost like give him a fair trial and hang him, it's the reverse of that.

CLYBURN: Yes.

WHITFIELD: You've heard since that the Trump campaign and others have used the words hang him to say look, the Dems want to hang Trump. So, you know, this is your first opportunity after that interview, you know, to offer clarity for those who want to interpret what you said in one way, clarity on your word choice, your intention.

[11:14:55]

CLYBURN: Well, I don't know, you have to be very unintelligent to misinterpret what I said. The word reverse means reverse. The reverse of a fair trial and hanging is a rigged trial and acquitting. That's the reverse.

And I said this is the reverse of that. Unfair trial, rigged trial, and acquitting -- that's what that is.

Now, you know, I'm so sorry that people don't have enough respect for their own interpretations or their own intelligence to try to misinterpret that.

In fact I'm very pleased that Fox News has come out and said they are misrepresenting the congressman's words. I forgot, some very right- wing groups have come out and called them on this. And that is something to be proud of.

So, you know, I don't have a problem with conservatives. My parents were conservative. Much more conservative than I am. I respect conservatives. I do not respect misrepresenters. And that's what these people are doing, misrepresenting the facts.

WHITFIELD: And is this just in your view emblematic of why there is so much, say, confusion that's being promoted because people might hear one thing, but there are others who tell them they heard something else instead?

CLYBURN: Well, that's their intent. You know, they are trying -- they're bullies. They're trying to intimidate. My goodness, what I've been through in this country, what I go through every day, you aren't going to intimidate me. They can attempt all they want to.

I'm going to continue to speak out the way I know to speak out, the way I should speak out to represent my constituents, the way I should. And I'm not going to be intimidated by people who hide behind some tweet. That's what's going on in this White House, just tweeting out stuff that they know is not true. And these people are getting their signals from this White House.

Stephen Miller is in the White House. Stephen Miller is the guy that got us now celebrating Christmas with the loss of food stamps for hungry people. It's all coming from Stephen Miller and we ought to call this stuff out. And I'm going to continue to call it out.

If you put up a kangaroo court, I'm going to call it that. If you misrepresent SNAP and the food stamp laws, I'm going to call it that. I am not going to be intimidated by anybody in this White House or by anybody out in the blogosphere. I've lived too long to be intimidated by anybody.

WHITFIELD: Congressman James Clyburn of South Carolina, thank you so much for your time.

Again -- have a great holiday. I know it's a working holiday as so much still work is being done, particularly on this impeachment process. Appreciate it.

CLYBURN: Thank you very much. And thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: Thank you.

CLYBURN: Happy holidays.

WHITFIELD: Happy holidays.

All right. Still ahead, Democrats' lead over a potential 2020 matchup against the President is narrowing. Is impeachment weakening Democrats' plans to take back the White House?

And cameras capture the moment two cruise ships collide, injuring a half a dozen people. Details on that straight ahead.

[11:18:25]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: A new CNN poll shows the lead Democrats have over Trump is narrowing.

CNN political reporter Arlette Saenz joins me now from the key early voting state of Iowa.

So Arlette -- former vice president Joe Biden still holds the lead nationally among Democratic candidates but, you know, what do recent polls mean for his electability argument?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, Fred -- electability has been at the center of Joe Biden's argument throughout this campaign, that he views himself as the person best able to take on and beat President Trump.

And you saw in polls released earlier this week that not only is Joe Biden still leading nationally among Democrats, he is also leading Trump in head-to-head matchups. It's him and Bernie Sanders are the only ones who are a little bit above or at the margin of error in those head-to-head matchups with President Trump.

But then if you dive in and look at the battleground states, it's a much, much closer hypothetical contest with Biden and Trump basically tied in those states, states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, Wisconsin as well.

But Biden also earlier this week got a little bit of welcome news in our CNN poll that was released that showed that 40 percent of Democrats believe he is the best candidate with the best chance of beating President Trump. That was above his other rivals in the contest. On Thursday night in Los Angeles, you had seven of those Democratic contenders making their case for why they should take on President Trump. And you saw a lot of clashes, some interparty squabbles between the candidates.

Biden was asked yesterday whether he's concerned if Democrats aren't going to be united heading into the caucuses. Take a listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do worry about this notion that the Democratic candidates spend a lot time attacking one another. I've tried not to do that. What I've tried to do is focus on why I believe I'm most qualified to beat Donald Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now, Biden will be appearing here in Ottumwa, Iowa in just a short while. You also have Amy Klobuchar, Cory Booker who wasn't on the debate stage, and Elizabeth Warren. They are also making their way through the state today as we are 44 days out from the Iowa caucuses and these candidates are trying to make their mark before Iowans head to those caucuses -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Arlette Saenz -- thank you so much.

Among them, you know, Cory booker challenging the DNC now, trying to change the qualifications for upcoming debates, given that he and others have not qualified.

All right, we'll talk about that later on.

All right. Thank you so much -- Arlette Saenz.

Next, two cruise ships collide. Six people are hurt, and now Carnival Cruise Line is paying up. Details, next.

[11:24:46]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back.

Two Carnival Cruise ships collide, sending passengers onboard into a panic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's going to hit us next.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WHITFIELD: And that's how it happened. Six people are injured.

CNN's Nick Watt has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, according to the cruise line, Carnival Glory was maneuvering to dock when it made contact with Carnival Legend. No more detail yet on what exactly caused this collision or allision -- as they are calling it. An allision, by the way, is when one boat is stationary and another is moving.

But CNN has spoken to passengers aboard the vessels. One person said it felt like a big wave had hit the ship. Other passengers said that announcements after the event suggested that perhaps currents were a factor here. Another suggested that perhaps wind was a factor.

[11:29:47]

WATT: These are huge vessels. The Carnival Glory, when it's at full tilt, it has a stopping distance of one mile. This is a massive ship. Of course it was not going at full tilt here. It was maneuvering at low speed.

But this ship 110,000 tons, a capacity of passenger/crew of over 4,000 people hitting another vessel, another 85,000-ton vessel. That is going to be a smash. It was bow to stern.

Now, the cruise line says that they are right now assessing the seaworthiness of both vessels. They do not expect that seaworthiness to have been compromised at all by this event.

They told passengers to go ashore, enjoy their day ashore, and they do not anticipate that the itinerary of either ship will be impacted. Not a nightmare before Christmas, a low-speed allision before Christmas.

Nick Watt, CNN -- Los Angeles.

WHITFIELD: Frightening moment. And the ship is now on its way back to its home port in New Orleans. And according to a letter from the captain, passengers were given a $100 per room onboard credit for the inconvenience.

All right, next, why a top evangelical magazine is calling for the President to be removed from office.

[11:31:04]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back.

President Donald J. Trump attacks House Speaker Nancy Pelosi before accepting an invitation to speak before Congress.

CNN's chief White House correspondent Jim Acosta has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Demanding to be declared innocent in the Ukraine scandal, President Trump is slamming House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's decision to hang on to the articles of impeachment while negotiations continue over the upcoming trial in the Senate.

The President tweeted "Actually they have zero proof of anything. They will never even show up. They want out. I want an immediate trial".

Mr. Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, told young conservatives at the Turning Point USA Summit, Democrats are out for blood.

RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP PERSONAL ATTORNEY: They want to put Barr in prison and they want to execute me. Good luck. I just get angrier and I go after you more.

ACOSTA: The President's daughter, Ivanka, concedes her father is upset.

IVANKA TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL DAUGHTER: Angry at the waste of time, angry at the collateral damage, angry -- but it's still energizing and it focuses you on really and draws into relief the stark contrast in priorities.

PELOSI: The House will be in order.

ACOSTA: But Pelosi appears to be getting in some digs of her own, inviting the President to deliver the State of the Union around the time of Mr. Trump's trial, writing in a letter, "In the spirit of respecting our constitution, I invite you to deliver your State of the Union address before a joint session of Congress on Tuesday, February 4th, 2020.

But an expert witness for the Democrats during the inquiry is warning Pelosi should get on with it, writing in an op-ed, "If the House does not communicate its impeachment to the Senate, it hasn't actually impeached the President."

Democrats aren't buying that.

REP. NORMA TORRES (D), CALIFORNIA: Absolutely, you know, after the vote that we took on the floor, and you know, the majority of Congress voted to impeach the President. He has absolutely been impeached.

ACOSTA: As Christmas is approaching, the President is all but saying "Bah humbug" to the religious publication "Christianity Today" which is calling for Mr. Trump's removal over his actions in Ukraine. The President blasted the Web site as a far left magazine, but that's not true according to its editor.

MARK GALLI, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "CHRISTIANITY TODAY": It's factually inaccurate that we're far left. We're pretty centrist. We rarely comment on politics unless we feel it rises to the level of some national or concern that is really important. And this would be a case.

ACOSTA: Mr. Trump tweeted, "The fact is no president has ever done what I have done for evangelicals or religion itself."

But while the President is popular among Christian conservatives, he rarely attends church and has at times puzzled his own faithful, whether by signing bibles or misquoting passages from the scripture.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: II Corinthians, right -- II Corinthians 3:17, that's the whole ball game.

ACOSTA: The President is tweeting about House Speaker Nancy Pelosi insisting she should be impeached for demanding a fair trial in the Senate. Even with all of that friction, the President has accepted Pelosi's invitation to deliver the State of the Union in early February, but that could be messy if the impeachment trial is still under way.

Jim Acosta, CNN -- the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. Let's talk about all of this. It's quite the potpourri.

Joining me now to discuss -- Rachael Bade, a congressional reporter for the "Washington Post" and CNN political analyst; and David Swerdlick, an assistant editor for the "Washington Post" and CNN political commentator. Good to see you both.

DAVID SWERDLICK, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hey -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. So David -- you first. You know, what do you make of the way the President has attacked "Christianity Today" over that op-ed.

SWERDLICK: Yes. Good morning -- Fred. And early happy Hanukkah.

You can imagine that the President is upset about this. He did not want to be impeached. He did not want to see those headlines Thursday morning in the "Washington Post" and the "New York Times" and other newspapers saying "Trump impeached".

That being said, he is now sort of taking some medicine from people who he would have thought were his core supporters like "Christianity Today". He has strong support among white evangelical Christians, but Mark Galli, who is the outgoing editor in chief basically made this argument. And I thought it was summed up well in a piece on the "Post" by Nancy French, who's a well-known Christian writer who said basically this isn't about Trump, this is about defending Christianity.

And from the point of view of not the majority, but some evangelical Christians, President Trump at this point has sort of tainted their conception of their faith because they have latched on politically to him even though he's someone whose brand is someone who's sort of proud of having this low moral character. You're starting to see that leak out.

You had Peter Winter (ph) on CNN's air just this morning referring to Paul's Letter to the Galatians saying look, this is inconsistent, the teachings of the apostle is inconsistent with how President Trump comports himself.

[11:35:02]

SWERDLICK: I don't think it's going to move the needle on polls, Fred -- but you're starting to see this leak out.

WHITFIELD: And speaking of polls, Rachael -- you know, this recent poll showing that President Trump enjoys a 75 percent approval rating among white evangelical Christian voters. So do you see that there is to be or could be an erosion of that kind of support, particularly as people might dig a little deeper and learn a little bit more about, you know, the President and people surrounding him?

RACHAEL BADE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I mean it seems a little premature to say that this is the beginning of a new trend. I mean clearly white evangelicals are a huge part of the President's base.

A lot of them have said, you know, they support him. Some people have been conflicted about it. But you've heard over and over again Christian sort of leaders say, look, god can work through all different types of people, even people that might originally come across as sinners.

And so we've heard them sort of have -- grapple with at times the support of the President, but they're very firmly behind him. You look at those poll numbers and you think about things that they have stuck with Trump through, including the Access Hollywood tape, allegations that he made these hush payments to women who are alleging affairs in the 2016 election, attacks on for instance Debbie Dingell, a widow, and her late husband John Dingell just the other day. A lot of Christians don't like that kind of rhetoric.

And yet again, evangelical Christians have very much stayed with the President. So this letter is clearly an outlier right now but it is very clearly getting under Trump's skin. At the same time, you see him tweeting, attacking the publication.

We have reporting; Josh Dawsey, my colleague, has reported that there are some advisers in the White House who wish Trump would sort of tone it down on going after this publication. That he's actually made it a bigger deal than it is.

And at the same time, you have Christian leaders, evangelical leaders behind the scenes sort of reaching out to the White House and saying, look, this is not how most of us feel. So I do think that this is sort of an outlier, at least right now.

We'll have to see if that changes. But if you look at the past, you know, couple of years, the evangelical community has been very strong behind the President. And I don't think that this publication will necessarily change that. At least right now.

WHITFIELD: All right. We will leave it there for now.

Happy holidays to you both. Rachael Bade, David Swerdlick --

SWERDLICK: Thanks -- Fred.

BADE: Happy holidays.

WHITFIELD: Thank you.

All right. Next, a standstill in Congress over the President's impeachment. The U.S. Senate Majority Leader says he doesn't have to be an impartial juror because impeachment is a political process. But what about the laws of the constitution?

We'll discuss, next.

[11:42:37]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Democrats and Republicans remain in a stand-off after what an impeachment trial will look like as they head home for this two- week holiday break. So what is next?

Joining me now to discuss, Michael Zeldin. He is a CNN legal analyst and former special assistant to Robert Mueller at the Justice Department. Good to see you. Happy holidays.

MICHAEL ZELDIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: To you too -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: So the Senate blames the House for holding up the process. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says she needs to hear the Senate trial plans before naming House managers. So what details does the Senate Majority Leader need to work out and share with the House Speaker so that things will proceed?

ZELDIN: Principally it's the question of witnesses. The Democrats or the House, if you will, has asked that there be live witnesses in the Senate trial and that those witnesses be subject to direct and cross examination, much in the same way that the House Republicans asked for that during the House proceedings.

McConnell has not yet given an indication as to whether or not he will permit those witnesses. And Pelosi is saying until I get assurances that there will be witnesses or until I understand what this trial will look like, I can't designate and transmit to you the names of my managers.

WHITFIELD: And then how long can it take, this kind of process, before the Senate trial were to begin?

ZELDIN: Well, it's a political determination that's going on now. Theoretically the House could hold these articles of impeachment forever, but that's not politically possible. So they will be transmitted at some point once there is some understanding of what the rules of the game will be.

And then once they're received by the Senate, the trial really can begin imminently. Right after its receipt, there's no need for there to be any delay. There's no procedures that have to be undertaken.

WHITFIELD: So real quickly, when you said forever, you've heard the argument that's been made by some who say if it takes too long, then that kind of undermines the House vote of impeachment, thereby the President really hasn't been impeached if those articles are never transmitted to the Senate. Any truth to that?

ZELDIN: Well, Professor Feldman's point, I think, and he's the author of that article, says that until such time as the articles are transmitted to the Senate, they're not really perfected. And so theoretically if they're never sent over, there never is, you know, the formal possibility of a determination as to liability for those articles of impeachment.

I think that they probably stand as an article of impeachment, but there is no trial and, therefore, there can be no closure of the matter.

WHITFIELD: Ok. Noah Feldman was a Harvard Law professor who was called by the Democrats who testified, you know, on the legal merits of impeachment.

Ok. So Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says he is coordinating with the White House counsel. And White House counsel Pat Cipollone visited the Senate for a walk-through of the chamber.

ZELDIN: Right.

WHITFIELD: Has any violation of the Senate oath of office in your view taken place?

ZELDIN: No, not on the walk-through itself. I think that Cipollone is allowed to go to the chamber. That's where he's going to have to defend the President and so he wants to get the lay of the land, if you will. And I think that's perfectly appropriate.

[11:50:00]

ZELDIN: I also think it's appropriate for Senator McConnell to speak to the White House about, you know, some of the procedural matters that will take place. I don't think it's right for them to coordinate strategy, and I do think that at this point Senator McConnell and additionally Senator Lindsey Graham have made it clear that they cannot take in good faith the oath of office to be impartial jurors and that if I was a House manager I would move for there to be a dismissal of them as jurors.

And I don't know that that will happen, but I think when they predetermine the outcome, they cannot sit as impartial jurors and that's their oath under the constitution.

WHITFIELD: So who would do that? Who would be in charge of this dismissal of jurors if it were to happen involving, you know. Or if that motion were to be made for McConnell and Lindsey Graham?

ZELDIN: Theoretically, it will the Chief Justice of the United States who presides over the trial. The problem is that the court has held in the Walter-Nixon case that pretty much the Senate has the right to do as it wants to do and it is not really reviewable procedurally by higher courts.

So maybe it is that Justice Roberts will entertain this motion and say I cannot make determinations about the procedures here, but I can make a determination as to whether or not constitutionally these two senators are permitted to take the oath and that may be something that he is allowed to do.

WHITFIELD: Wow. Fascinating. This is going to be -- we're all on the edge of our seats every day, and this could play out for weeks more, months more potentially.

Michael Zeldin -- thank you so much. Appreciate it.

ZELDIN: Thanks -- Fred. Happy holidays again.

WHITFIELD: Happy holidays. Thank you.

All right. Still to come, a new court ruling has thrown the future of Obamacare into doubt. Details from the U.S. Supreme Court, next.

[11:51:57]

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WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back.

The future of the Affordable Care Act could now lie in the hands of the U.S. Supreme Court. An appeals court in New Orleans is ruling this week that the now eliminated Obama care health insurance mandate is unconstitutional.

CNN's Ariane De Vogue has more on how the decision could impact the 2020 race for the White House.

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ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Supporters of the Affordable Care Act, Democratic states and the House of Representative are expected to ask the Supreme Court early next month to review a major decision from an appeals court.

It came down earlier this week and held that the individual mandate is unconstitutional. The Appeals Court allowed the law to remain in effect for now but the ruling will bring uncertainty to millions of Americans who have signed up for coverage. It also means that the future of the Affordable Care Act will become a key issue during the 2020 election. In striking down the mandate, the court did not invalidate the entire massive law. Instead it ordered the lower court to take a fresh look at whether some provisions unrelated to the mandate that could be remain in left in place.

The ruling is a victory for Texas and other Republican-led states, and the Trump administration. But it could take several months to for the nation's high court to act leaving a cloud of uncertainty over the future of the law.

Ariane De Vogue, CNN -- Washington.

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WHITFIELD: All right. Still ahead, President Trump demands an immediate trial as lawmakers head home for the holidays, but a stand off between Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell could delay that indefinitely.

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