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Newly Released Emails Reveal White House Order To Freeze Ukraine Aid Came Roughly 90 Minutes After Trump-Zelensky Call; Iowa Voters Weigh In On Impeachment 43 Days Ahead Of Key Caucus. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired December 22, 2019 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, POLITICO: Hello, everyone, and thank you so much for joining me. Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

The battle over the upcoming impeachment trial in the Senate takes a new turn today. Newly released emails show that congressionally approved aid to Ukraine was frozen about an hour-and-a-half after President Trump's call with Ukraine's leader in July. That call is the centerpiece of the two articles of impeachment against the president. The new emails adding fuel to Democrats' demands for documents and witness testimony at the Senate trial.

CNN's Kristen Holmes is in West Palm Beach near the president's Mar-a- Lago Resort, where he is spending the holidays. Kristen, how emboldened now are Democrats by these new emails and information?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, it's certainly giving a lot of ammunition on this ongoing impasse on what this Senate trial would actually look like, and here is why. The author of that email is a man by the name of Michael Duffey. He is a Trump appointee at the Office of Management and Budget and he also happens to be one of the four witnesses that Democrats have said they want to hear from in an impeachment trial. So, of course, now they're saying this is why we wanted to hear from them.

We have to remember that at the heart of this stalemate, it's all about the process of that Senate trial. Republicans have indicated that they don't really want witnesses, whereas Democrats say they believe the only way to have a fair trial is with those documents and witnesses. And today we heard from Chuck Schumer on this. Take a listen.

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SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): So far, Senator McConnell and President Trump have come up with no good reason why there shouldn't be witnesses, why there shouldn't be documents. We don't know what the witnesses will say. We don't know what the documents, how the documents will read. They might exonerate President Trump or they might further incriminate him. But the truth should come out on something as important as an impeachment.

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HOLMES: And he has been very steadfast, as have other Democrats, in this position of trying to have witnesses and those documents, and Republicans have really stayed in their lanes, really backing up Mitch McConnell here. But despite these differences, we heard from the vice president's chief of staff today who said he believes they'll be able to strike a deal.

MARC SHORT, CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDNET MIKE PENCE: I'm quite confident that this position is untenable, and she's been moving along, and that Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell reach a deal on how it's going to proceed in the Senate.

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS HOST: So you think that she'll eventually --

SHORT: She will yield. There's no way she can hold this position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: So, Fred, really, at the end of the day, there are so many unknowns, and we are looking at a Congress that is not back in session until early January.

WHITFIELD: All right, a situation indeed. Kristen Holmes, thank you so much. We'll check back with you.

All right, for more now on those newly release emails, let's go to straight to CNN Political Reporter Jeremy Herb.

So, Jeremy, break this down for us. How significant is this?

JEREMY HERB, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes. These emails are potentially very significant in a sense that they give us new detail on what exactly was going on the morning that President Trump called Ukrainian President Zelensky.

Now, the emails show that Michael Duffey, who was the OMB political appointee, made the official order for this aid to be held up less than two hours after the president's call occurred. The president's call happened at 9:03 to 9:33. And this email that Duffey sent to White House Budget officials and Pentagon officials came out just after 11:00.

And in this email, Duffey suggested -- he could tell already that this was sensitive. What he said was, given the sensitive nature of the request, I appreciate your keeping that information closely held to those who need to know to execute direction.

Now, OMB says that the -- it is reckless to tie this email to the idea that the holding of funds was directly connected to the call. They say one email is misleading and inaccurate. And to be fair, we do understand the general direction of how this aid was held up from the House impeachment inquiry. We know on July 18th, for instance, that there was a meeting between officials where they talked about the aid being held and that we knew before that this aid was held on the day of the call. But this email potentially shows just how connected those two items were, Fred.

WHITFIELD: And then what kind of evidence could this potentially mean for the president's upcoming Senate trial?

HERB: Yes. As Kristen said, this is going to just fuel those Democratic requests for these witnesses to testify. Michael Duffey was subpoenaed by the House Intelligence Committee and did not appear. He is one of many officials who defied these subpoenas. But the House did not go to court in order to pursue that. They said that they didn't have the time. It could be held up for months.

Now, what Senate Republicans are saying is that if the Democrats wanted these witnesses, they should have had them during the House trial when they had control.

[14:05:06]

The bottom line is you need 51 senators in the Senate trial to do anything. The break down is 53 Republicans, 47 Democrats. If Democrats can convince four senators that people like Michael Duffey should testify, they may be able to get them, Susan Collins, Mitt Romney and others like that.

So far, none of those senators have shown any indication that that's going to happen, but they're back in their districts now for two weeks for the holidays, and when they come back in January, that's going to be the question put to them, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Jeremy Herb, thank you so much. We will check back with you later on.

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer isn't the only Democrat pointing to these new emails to bolster the case to have witnesses testify at the upcoming U.S. Senate impeachment trial. Here is Presidential Candidate Senator Amy Klobuchar on CNN State of the Union today.

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SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We just found out this weekend that someone who works for Mulvaney, Michael Duffey, had sent an email 90 minutes after the president made that critical call to the Ukrainian president. This guy sent an email. I have it here. We just found it. It says, given the sensitive nature of the request, I appreciate your keeping this information closely held, and he said don't release any of the funds. This man should testify.

Don't be surprised, the polls show 64 percent of Republicans think these witnesses should testify.

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WHITFIELD: With me now, Rachael Bade, a Congressional Reporter for The Washington Post and a CNN Political Analyst, and Ron Brownstein is a Senior Editor for The Atlantic and CNN Senior Political Analyst. Good to see both of you. Happy Hanukkah.

All right, so, Ron, how might this timeline, this information potentially impact Republican senators' opinions about impeachment if and when this trial gets underway?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I mean, really, it just reminds how astonishing it is that Republicans in both chambers have essentially placed their partisan loyalties above their institutional kind of responsibilities and supported the White House stonewalling of this inquiry and not to mention other oversight requests.

I mean, it is kind of amazing that we are dealing with something as momentous as an impeachment inquiry and so many people at the center of it have refused to offer what they know, whether it's John Bolton or OMB officials or Mick Mulvaney. And the White House has been able to, you know, put down requests, block requests for documents.

In the end, Republicans could --

WHITFIELD: Well, I would think it would make it harder to argue against a hearing.

BROWNSTEIN: Exactly.

WHITFIELD: And allowing this information to be hashed out.

BROWNSTEIN: When you have information of this sort coming out, it instantly begs the question what else is there. And I think that is the question that Republicans, you know, have to answer. Right now, as you noted, there's no indication that they are kind of wavering on their support of the White House stonewall.

But it is a historic moment when you have an entire political party in Congress siding with the executive branch against congressional demands for information essentially, as I say, placing partisan locality above their kind of institutional obligations and responsibilities.

WHITFIELD: Yes. And, Rachael, aside from Michael Duffey, I mean, this development likely adds even more interest in hearing testimony from acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, who is also leading OMB, the former national security adviser, John Bolton. But listen to what Senator Lindsey Graham had to say about that very idea today.

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SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): To any senator who votes to compel the testimony of John Bolton or Mick Mulvaney before the president can have his day in court, exercising executive privilege before the courts, the court is available to every American, including Donald Trump. So if you call these witnesses who worked for the president after he's invoked executive privilege, if you deny him his day in court, then you're abusing the constitutional rights of Donald Trump as president, and you're putting the entire presidency at risk. I can't imagine any senator doing this to the presidency.

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WHITFIELD: All right. So, Rachael, how much weight is Graham's argument going to have on his fellow Republicans?

RACHAEL BADE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, look, clearly, Democrats would argue that the Republicans are hiding behind the courts, that Trump has been stonewalling not just this investigation but literally dozens of congressional investigations for months. And that's basically kicked all of the subpoena debates and sort of fight between the Congress and the White House to the courts, which takes a long time to sort of litigate this, allow them to draw this out.

I think that, you know, Democrats, when it comes to sort of saying, we need to hear from these key witnesses, clearly, people on both sides of the aisle agree. I mean, you can look at the polling, even Republicans think that these are people they would want to hear from, Mick Mulvaney, Duffey, you just talked about the email there, John Bolton, who clearly had a problem and has a story to tell on what happened with Ukraine.

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The issue here is that Republicans are basically using this sort of strategy that Democrats have put together to hold the articles of impeachment in the House. They're trying to use that against the Democrats saying they're just holding the articles to keep Trump from being acquitted. So it's really sort of emboldened the right to sort of pivot from talking about key witnesses and sort of point to Pelosi and say, look, she's playing politics with an issue that is of utmost incredible importance to this country, impeachment.

So it's kind of -- you have Democrats right now, they're going to have to ask themselves, yes, they want to get these witnesses, are they willing to really hold the articles of impeachment in the House if they're not willing to get those right now, especially when if you go back to the Clinton --

WHITFIELD: That's the leverage though for Pelosi, isn't it?

BADE: It is in one way. I mean, Trump clearly wants to be acquitted and he wants this to happen. But, again, at the same time, it's emboldening Republicans to say that she's playing politics right now.

And I think there's another important point to mention, and that is during Clinton's impeachment, the impeachment came over to the Senate, they had opening statements and cross-examination and then they came up with an agreement on witnesses. They didn't have that hashed out at the beginning. And so the demand by the Democrats to have that right now --

WHITFIELD: Ultimately, there were more than 40 witnesses.

BADE: And I think that that, again, Democrats, they can point to these emails and they can say, look, the country wants to hear from these people right now, it's just a question of tactics and is this the right strategy.

WHITFIELD: So The Washington Post and ABC released a poll, you know, Tuesday, which found that 49 percent of those surveyed said the president should be impeached and removed from office, and then, Ron, there's 71 percent of those polled who think Trump should allow senior administration officials to testify in a likely Senate impeachment trial.

So, you know, given the Ukraine timeline reporting, these latest poll numbers, isn't it getting harder for the Senate Majority Leader, McConnell, to avoid any kind of agreement to witnesses and the promise of having an impartial trial?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, there are a couple of different aspects to it. First, I mean, in the House, we focused on the 31 Democrats in districts that have voted for Trump, and whether they would ultimately vote for impeachment. Of course, all but two in the end did.

Now, in the Senate, the issue is are the Republican senators in more vulnerable or swing states like Susan Collins, Martha McSally, Cory Gardner. Can they go back -- in the end, I think it's unlikely that any of them vote to remove President Trump from office, but they need to be able to go back to their voters and say that they took this seriously, and that there was a serious process. And I think that is the kind of the vice. If there is any form of pressure on Mitch McConnell, plus, a few of the older Republicans, frankly, like Lamar Alexander, Mitt Romney, who may feel the need for history to have a more fair process here.

One other consideration though, real quick, is that, you know, the president wants kind of redemption and acquittal. Even though the country is divided 50/50 on whether he should be removed from office, there is a slight majority that says he did something wrong. He committed -- or in the worst case, that he committed an impeachable offense.

And if the trial is seen as rigged from the start, it seems unlikely that even a vote from the Senate not to remove him from office is really going to reduce that majority of Americans who said he did something wrong, and that is ultimately the real test facing him next November, can he witness that return.

WHITFIELD: Still that question mark that will be remaining, that cloud that will still be hanging.

BROWNSTEIN: Exactly. If the trial is illegitimate, I think it makes it more likely that question is there.

WHITFIELD: All right. Ron Brownstein, Rachael Bade, we'll leave it there for now. Thank you so much. Happy holidays.

BROWNSTEIN: Happy holidays.

WHITFIELD: All right. Still ahead, what Iowa voters have to say about impeachment and the state's 2020 caucus, now just 43 days away. Plus, her kidnapping and eventual escape captured the nation. Now stunning new details about the abduction of Jayme Closs and her close encounter with police right after she was taken.

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WHITFIELD: All right. Right now, can you believe, we're just 43 days away from the Iowa caucuses. And one major question surrounding this critical early contest, will the impeachment of President Donald J. Trump hurt or help his chances of re-election.

CNN Senior National Correspondent Kyung Lah is in Iowa asking voters that very question and people were very frank with you. They just told you what was on their mind, and it was rather refreshing too though, wasn't it?

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's sort of the Iowan way. I mean, they really want to talk about politics and certainly impeachment is hanging over every single event we have been to. What you are hearing and these are highly interested, highly engaged Democrats. They say, look, you cannot avoid the fact that the impeachment trial will be running up right up to the Iowa caucuses. Are they worried about them? Absolutely, they are concerned about the impact on 2020 but they're also united in saying there's no way around it.

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LINDA HENRY, IOWA VOTER: I think it's high time he was impeached. And I'm very saddened that it looks like the Senate is going to let him go scot-free. I think it's a travesty. He needs to be removed from office for the things he has done.

JERRY SMITH, IOWA VOTER: I think that the truth needs to come out. I believe very strongly that they should have a fair trial in the Senate. I think there's several people that need to be testifying in the Senate. And I fully believe that obstruction is a serious issue.

JAN RYCHOBSKY, IOWA VOTER: I think he's definitely in trouble here. So I think from everything I have seen, everything I have read, unfortunately, some bad choices were made, and I think he should be impeached. And I think the Senate should bring more witnesses in, and I think they should take it seriously.

I think it matters, and I think it's going to be a black mark on the Republicans for a long time, especially the way Mitch McConnell is coming at it, you know, just announcing that he's not going to do anything.

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LAH: And that last Democratic voter also points out, you know who else is up in 2020, a lot of Senate Republicans, including Mitch McConnell, as well as some vulnerable Senate Republicans, like Susan Collins, Martha McSally, Cory Gardner. So this vote, the Democrats think, will also reflect on Senate Republicans, Fredricka.

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WHITFIELD: Oh, yes. And these folks that you talked to, they gave you more than one-word answers, which really makes the conversation that much more refreshing as you get to hear exactly why people believe what they believe.

So now let's talk about, you know, the senators that are in the race and how the impeachment calendar could be either an interruption or maybe even an asset. I'm talking about four U.S. senators who are on the campaign trail. How are their camps looking at the prospects of, you know, having to sit in trial at the time of key primaries?

LAH: Well, kind of like you just heard from those voters. They are very frank. These candidates are absolutely frank about the fact that it is going to pull them off the trail.

We have been on the trail with Amy Klobuchar, the senator who is going to be a juror. She understands that during the week, she has a day job. She has got to be in Washington, as she considers it her constitutional duty. But the flip side of it is that she's going to have to become creative. She told us that some of this is going to be teletown halls, some this you might have to Skype in, use surrogates, and she's going to have to work that much harder, especially when you consider the fact that she's running with two other moderates, Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg, who do not have the sit through the Senate trial, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, fascinating. Kyung Lah, thanks so much for bringing that to us. I appreciate it.

LAH: You bet.

WHITFIELD: All right. Still to come, kidnapped at 13 years old, both her parents killed but how close did police come to Jayme Closs and her kidnapper after her abduction. Details straight ahead on that.

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WHITFIELD: All right. One year after her abduction, an unbelievable escape and rescue, we're getting new and startling details about the kidnapping of Jayme Closs. Closs was 13 when she was abducted in October of 2018 by 21-year-old Jake Patterson who had seen her getting off a school bus one day and then decided to abduct her.

He went to the Closs house, killed both of her parents and stuffed Jayme into the trunk of his car, holding her hostage for 88 day until she managed to escape and run to a neighbor for help. Patterson pleaded to guilty and murder and kidnapping and is serving two life sentences.

And now, Wisconsin authorities are releasing a massive trove of records relating to the case. Among them, dash cam video showing officers responding to the Closs house, passing by Jake Patterson's car as he pulls over to let police pass by. Jayme Closs was in the trunk of that car.

Our Polo Sandoval, has been sifting through all of this information. Polo. it's heartbreaking to think just how close police were to Jayme just moments after she was taken unbeknownst to them, but what else have we learned?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The story of a missed opportunity there, Fred, is just one of many stories that have come out of this massive document dump. It's certainly not unusual for all these documents to be released, well, after this case is closed. But now with the conviction and the sentencing, now we're learning more, and part of it is that police essentially passed by their suspect here on their way to scene unknowingly.

In fact, at the time, I listened to some of the police body camera audio, and you can hear police arriving at the scene, finding the bodies of this young woman's parents and automatically assume at first that this was possibly a suicide. But, boy, did this investigation take a massive turn, obviously, especially once they found -- once they discovered that Jayme was missing and that search started there.

These documents also painted a picture, a disturbing picture of what took place while the suspect, while Patterson kept this girl in a remote cabin here. The suspect during interviews saying that she was terrified and petrified, also and Patterson, and I'll read from some of the documents here, also saying that they played board games, that they watched T.V., that they also played other games outside.

However, during the whole time, again, that she was terrified. Also that he wanted to kidnap 13 to 15 years before this actually took place, but it wasn't until he saw this girl getting off the bus that then he ended up acting and then also that he went to that House on multiple occasions but he noticed there were multiple vehicles there, so he decided to try again.

And then ultimately on that October night is when he went in with a shotgun, blew the door open, and shot and killed her parents before abducting her. And then finally, these documents, Fred, they say that he was so ill-prepared that he even had to share some of his clothing with her while he kept her in that cabin for 88 days, and they even spent Christmas together, that he even purchased Christmas presents for Jayme.

WHITFIELD: So then included in these records is information about how an astrologer may have been involved here. In what capacity?

SANDOVAL: Yes. There were multiple tips that they received, and in these thousands of pages, they do show that information from an astrologer came in early in the investigation, in late October. Apparently, according to these documents, this lead was assigned to an investigator that they -- this lead suggested that she had been killed and her body possibly in a lake and an investigator followed up on that. But, of course, that led them nowhere. And then two months later find out that she managed to escape, managed to flag down help and she was at least safe.

WHITFIELD: Wow, extraordinary. All right, Polo Sandoval, thank you so much.

SANDOVAL: Thanks, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Coming up next, Republicans are on the attack as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi holds on to the articles of impeachment against President Trump. When will the Senate get to start with their trial, and what would it look like?

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WHITFIELD: All right. It's been three days since President Trump was impeached and still no date for when his Senate trial will begin. Negotiations remain at an impasse today as GOP senators are now claiming that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has no right to continue holding the articles of impeachment in the House.

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SEN. ROY BLUNT (R-MO): I frankly don't think the speaker has the right to do this or the power to do this. The speaker has a lot of power. But once the House has spoken, the speaker doesn't get the decision as to whether or not she transmits that decision to the Senate, in my view. I think we'll have this all handled by the time we get back in January.

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): I just think it's kind of bizarre. They had to rush to this impeachment vote and then all of a sudden she's sitting on it. I don't think the Senate should be making the case the House should have made in their presentation. My guess is they weren't able to make the case.

As I said, the charges are pretty thin, gruel (ph). I don't see anything impeachable in that. So it's not the job of the Senate to make the case that the House should have made in their impeachment clause or in their articles of impeachment.

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WHITFIELD: All right, two different arguments there.

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Let's talk to former federal prosecutor Lis Wiehl. Lis, good to see you.

LIZ WIEHL, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Good to see you.

WHITFIELD: And happy holidays.

WIEHL: Happy holidays. WHITFIELD: So, yesterday, I spoke with Congressman Clyburn and a number of legal experts who all said that the House can hold on to transmitting indefinitely and can place these kinds of demands, but you heard at least Roy Blunt saying otherwise. So how do you see it? What's the truth here in your view?

WIEHL: Right, a couple of different things. I mean, Nancy Pelosi can hold on to the articles, but I don't think it's wise to hold on to them indefinitely. And it's not going to help.

WHITFIELD: So wise versus whether it's correct, right, constitutionally, different matters.

WIEHL: Right. Remember, there's not a lot of precedent here. I was counsel for the Democrats during the impeachment of President Clinton, and, of course, the articles went speedily along because there was a bipartisan support for the resolutions and what was going to happen at the trial. That's not the case here.

But I don't think that it's wise politically for Pelosi to hold on to them too much longer.

WHITFIELD: Why?

WIEHL: Because it does look so political, A, and B, because the Democrats have argued all along that President Trump was a danger, is an imminent danger to the nation because of his meddling with national security for his own empowerment, grandiosity, et cetera, et cetera. So then to hold back on the articles when he could be continuing with his meddling, continuing with all of this, would kind of -- you can't sort of have both arguments.

And I think --

WHITFIELD: Except that's what's interesting here, is because you've got Mitch McConnell who says this president will not be removed for office.

WIEHL: There you go.

WHITFIELD: So he has already said before a trial is to get underway and apparently he's already said there will be no witnesses. So --

WIEHL: But play into that then, Fred. Play into that. Because then the Democrats play into their strength, we have these, they can say. We have these not paper thin, but very strong impeachment articles. They are akin to indictments. That's where the second argument comes in which is wrong. These are indictments, all right. So if this then is akin to a trial, these are indictments, what happens then when you get to an actual trial? You take the indictment.

WHITFIELD: So what do you envision would happen in the Senate trial if there are no witnesses?

WIEHL: Well, first, let's not go there yet. WHITFIELD: Well, that's what Mitch McConnell said. But he can change his mind, right, and that's what you're saying over this holiday break, perhaps.

WIEHL: He can change his mind if there is pressure from other Republicans, which there may be. Because, remember, they're sitting back now, they have some time, and that's what Nancy Pelosi is buying by holding on to these at least through until they come back from the holiday, the vacation, which is when I think she should drop them, and I think she should drop them with a strong resolution of House managers, those are going to be the prosecutors, and say, here they are, here are our house managers and name them. So come out and come out strong. Well, here they are, and here are our house managers.

Okay. At that point then, the resolutions are there, here are the managers. Then the Republicans have had some chance to think about witnesses. They know that the framers said in the Constitution, the reason that the senators have been appointed to be these jurors is because we see them as being the impartial jurors, the people that can judge the defendant, the accused as accused by the people, us, they're the people to judge.

WHITFIELD: But if no witnesses then, do you see a dereliction of duty?

WIEHL: Exactly. Because if you have facts and you have allegations, what do you need to marry facts and allegations? Witnesses and documents in any case. That's what you need. So if you have people that say, we don't need facts or witnesses, then aren't you derelict in your duty? I mean, that just makes sense.

WHITFIELD: Bigger question marks.

WIEHL: So that would show that the senators who say we don't want this, at least they're showing to their constituents, the people they are representing, we're derelict in our duties.

WHITFIELD: Yes. All right, Lis Wiehl, thank you so much.

WIEHL: You got it.

WHITFIELD: Good to see you, happy holidays, happy New Year.

WIEHL: Happy holidays.

WHITFIELD: Happy everything.

WIEHL: Happy everything.

WHITFIELD: Take care. Well, I will say that. Okay.

All right, it is a festive day in our nation's capital, the annual Hanukkah Menorah lighting is about to begin. So what this holiday message of unity and togetherness means at a time of great division in this country, next.

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WHITFIELD: All right. In just over an hour from now, in Washington, D.C., the annual lighting ceremony of the National Hanukkah Menorah will get underway, arguably the most prominent public Hanukkah event in the world. The celebration draws thousands of attendees each year. It's a tradition that dates back to 1979 under President Jimmy Carter.

My next guest is getting ready for the celebrations themselves on the national mall there, Rabbi Levi Shemtov, joining me right now. He is Executive Vice President of American Friends of Luvabitch-Chabad. He is the founder of the Capitol Jewish Forum, also the rabbi for Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner. Rabbi Shemtov, good to see you. Happy Hanukkah.

LEVI SHEMTOV, FOUNDER, CAPITOL JEWISH FORUM: Happy Hanukkah to you. We're just a couple of hours away from what's probably the premier celebration of Hanukkah in the world. And thanks for having me with you.

WHITFIELD: Absolutely. So tell me how meaningful it is to have sunny skies there, which means you're going to have a wonderful turnout this evening with the clear skies tonight. Tell me what this event symbolizes for you.

SHEMTOV: Well, we have been doing this event for 40 years, Fredricka, and this started in 1979 when then President Carter walked out of the White House and joined the lighting.

[14:45:03]

And ever since then, we've had the dignitaries, the vice president, members of the cabinet. This year, we're going to have the interior secretary, David Bernhardt, who's going to be joining us together with the president's own United States Marine Band.

Thousands of people are turning out. We put months of preparation into this. And then I guess God decides what kind of weather to bless us with and to make sure that we are able to welcome everyone.

Now, we had a surge of registration over the last few days. We're now expecting some 4 or 5,000 people. But, of course, tens of millions are going to see this via the media and the newscasts.

So, essentially, what this is is to --

WHITFIELD: Sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.

SHEMTOV: No, no. Essentially this is two things. I mean, it's an ancient tradition going back about 2,000 years where the sages declared that in this period every year, we should remember the miracle and proclaim it in the most public way possible. So although there are many Jewish rituals and traditions, this is the one that must be public in order to fulfill our obligation. So we take the Menorah and we put it in a window or doorway, someplace where people will see it. And in the past 40 years, it's become customary or 45 years, actually, it's become customary to place these in public places like Independence Mall and now at the Ellipse before it was in Lafayette Square. It's been in places like the Eiffel Tower in Paris, Trafalgar Square in London, Central Park in New York, Moscow's Red Square, imagine that, places all over the world, the Sydney Opera House, everywhere you can imagine.

We have some 15,000 celebrations like this going on this year which are going to draw millions of people, but this is the one that has spawned this great network of similar celebrations around the world, in many countries that didn't even have thriving Jewish communities for many, many years, and especially in recent times given with what's happened here in the United States both in terms of the Jewish community and generally, I believe that in the darkness that has started to lurk in the forms of senseless hatred and acts of violence and things of that nature. One of the most effective responses we can ever have is light.

WHITFIELD: Yes. So this is an evening of celebration and inclusion, but, you know, you talk about moments of darkness, and how the nation is grappling with so much, particularly 25 Jewish Democratic members of Congress are actually calling now for the removal of a senior White House adviser, Stephen Miller, and is citing, you know, his promotion of stories from white nationalists as their reasoning and looking at emails which were conveyed.

Congressman James Clyburn is someone I spoke with yesterday, and he weighed in on this letter and this plea from 25 lawmakers in this manner.

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REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): I'm so glad my people from the Jewish community are now speaking up about Stephen Miller.

This guy is really a cancer on this country, not just this presidency.

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WHITFIELD: So where are you on this?

SHEMTOV: Well, here is the story. I am decidedly and devotedly non- partisan or bipartisan. I happen to know Stephen Miller. I also know Jim Clyburn. He was an honoree of ours years ago. I know many of the 25 Jewish members who signed that letter, and I'm going to respectfully decline to comment on the letter or that particular issue but I am going to tell you this --

WHITFIELD: But also as the Rabbi of Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, surely, they council with you and vice versa from time to time, and this is an area that I would believe would bring some consternation from anyone in public service in the White House when you're talking about criticism about an adviser to the president whom they interact with on a regular basis. SHEMTOV: Yes. But as you can imagine, I'm going to keep any conversations I have with people who come to our synagogue private. That's just a basic core of my professional responsibility and clerical responsibility as a rabbi.

WHITFIELD: If it's not about conversation, what would you advise? What do you believe should happen?

SHEMTOV: Well, I believe that we all have to take a look at the big structure behind me called the Menorah, and we have to look at how it's created and what it looks like. The temple had a very similar model. And if you notice, there's a base from which branches come out to both sides and then the branches go up straight. Unlike in the temple, these candles also point straight. But in the temple, the wicks would point towards the center. And then there would be one wick in the middle that pointed straight up.

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We are told that that wick represented divinity and the branches on both sides had the wicks pointing back to the center, because no matter how we are formed, whether we go right or left in our ideas, in our persuasion, in our background, we have to be willing to have our wick, our illumination point towards something more central.

So let's just say that I would appeal to people on the left or on the right to please have their wick point towards the center. In that way, we're going to become a country that's much better off because people will not only focus on where they come from or what they believe but open their ears and their hearts to people who may be diametrically opposed to their opinion.

In that way, what we can do is cause a lot more light than heat. I think everyone in the city is looking for that. Everyone in the nation is looking for that.

WHITFIELD: Are those 25 lawmakers, in your view, pointing to the center? Is that what they are asking? They're asking for company in pointing to the center that you're

talking about, aren't they?

SHEMTOV: Well, if I were able to have the year of all 25, I'd say, why don't they all get together and try and figure out if there's a common purpose? We have 350 million Americans who are watching a lot of the dispute and a lot of the discord here in our capitol.

And what they want is people to just lower the tone a little bit about what they think and listen to what the others think because I can promise you only one thing, only good can come to our nation from the sides coming together and speaking to each other, and trying to aim towards the middle divine flame. I think that's what our nation needs now this Hanukkah, and it's not just the Jewish community but it's the entire community.

And I think with all the controversies that swirl and all of the high emotions, I think if people could somehow focus on a more common purpose going forward, we're all going to be better for it, and I think that that would be what I would tell everybody whether they're on the left or the right, let's focus the wick, the flame, the illumination, the warmth towards the center. Let's try and get something everyone can live with so that our whole nation can move forward and bring some light into what's darkness for a lot of people.

WHITFIELD: All right. Rabbi Levi Shemtov, thank you so much. Happy Hanukkah. Thank you for being with us. I appreciate.

SHEMTOV: Thank you very much for having me. I wish everyone a Happy Hanukkah, and really wish everybody finds more brightness, more happiness, greatness in their life and whatever it is that they need. Thank you very much for having me.

WHITFIELD: Thank you so much.

And we'll be right back.

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WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back. The future of the Affordable Care Act could now line the hands of the U.S. Supreme Court. An appeals court in New Orleans ruling this week that the now eliminated Obamacare Health Insurance mandate is unconstitutional.

CNN's Ariane de Vogue has more on how the decision could potentially impact the 2020 race for the White House.

ARIANE DE VOGUE, SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Supporters of the Affordable Care Act, Democratic states and the House of Representatives are expected to ask the Supreme Court early next month to review a major decision from an appeals court. It came down earlier this week and held that the individual mandate is unconstitutional.

The appeals court allowed the law to remain in effect for now but the ruling will bring uncertainty to millions of Americans who have signed up for coverage. It also means that the future of the Affordable Care Act would become a key issue during the 2020 election. In striking down the mandate, the court did not invalidate the entire massive law, instead it ordered a lower court to take a fresh look at whether some provisions unrelated to the mandate could remain in place.

The ruling is a victory for Texas and other Republican-led states and the Trump administration. But it could several months for the nation's high court to act, leaving a cloud of uncertainty over the future of the law.

Ariane de Vogue, CNN, Washington.

WHITFIELD: All right. Still ahead, new evidence released about how and when aid was withheld from Ukraine. That, of course, is the center of the impeachment of President Donald Trump. But will these new details sway the minds of senators tasked with deciding in the trial? Much more right after this.

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