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Battle Over The Upcoming Impeachment Trial In The U.S. Senate takes a New Turn; Barrage Of Violence Across America Overnight This Holiday Weekend; President Trump's Space Force Is Finally Coming Together With The Passing Of A Spending Bill. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired December 22, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:01:07]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello again, everyone. Thanks so much for joining me this Sunday. A Happy Hanukkah. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

The battle over the upcoming impeachment trial in the U.S. Senate takes a new turn today. Newly released e-mails show that congressionally approved aid to Ukraine was frozen about an hour and a half after President Trump's call with Ukraine's leader in July.

That call is the centerpiece of the two Articles of Impeachment against the President. The new e-mails adding fuel to Democrats' demands for documents and witness testimony at the U.S. Senate trial.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): The truth should come out on something as important as an impeachment. Well, this new information is rather explosive. What is a trial with no witnesses and no documents? It's a sham trial. And that's why we feel so strongly that there ought to be witnesses and documents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: CNN's Kristen Holmes is in West Palm Beach near the President's Mar-a-Lago resort where he is spending the holidays. So Kristen, you know, how emboldened might Democrats be by these new e- mails, this information about timelines?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fred, this gives Democrats a lot of ammunition when it comes to that stalemate between Democrats and Republicans over what exactly this Senate trial would look like. And here is why.

The person who penned this e-mail is a man by the name of Michael Duffy. He is a Trump political appointee who works in the Office of Management and Budget and he is also one of the four witnesses that Democrats say they want to hear from during a Senate Impeachment Trial.

Because remember this, Fred, at the end of the day, all of this is about what exactly the process of a Senate trial would look like. Democrats think a fair trial is one that is longer, that has evidence, that has documents and witnesses; and Republicans, they've indicated they don't want a lot of witnesses or really any.

So they seem to be at this impasse here and Chuck Schumer today doubling down on his position.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHUMER: So far, Senator McConnell and President Trump have come up with no good reason why there shouldn't be witnesses. Why there shouldn't be documents.

We don't know what the witnesses will say. We don't know what the documents or how the documents will read. They might exonerate President Trump. Or they might further incriminate him.

But the truth should come out on something as important as an impeachment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And as for where President Trump stands in all of this, today, we heard from the Vice President's Chief of Staff who said that Trump was frustrated but looking forward to a trial in the Senate. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC SHORT, CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: He is frustrated on what he finds to be a completely unreasonable impeachments. So sure, he is frustrated by that.

But he is also anxious to get not just acquitted but exonerated in the Senate. So, he is looking forward to his opportunity to have a fair trial in the Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: So there you have it, two sides who have really dug in their heels here. Lots of unknowns and a Congress that is not back in session until early January -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Kristen Holmes, thanks so much. We will check back with you.

All right, for more on this, let's go straight to CNN political reporter, Jeremy Herb. So Jeremy, what exactly did Michael Duffy in O.M.B. -- Office of Management and Budget -- you know, say in this newly released e-mails? What can you elaborate on for us?

JEREMY HERB, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, this e-mail is potentially significant because it fills in new details on exactly how the aid was held up and how it happened on the day of the call.

Now, Michael Duffy, the White House official, he sent this e-mail, basically ordering the Pentagon to hold this aid up. And in it, he acknowledge there was the potential for political sensitivity and that this was potentially explosive Minority Leader Schumer said.

Duffy said that, "Given the sensitive nature of the request, I appreciate you're keeping that information closely held to those who need to know to execute direction."

[15:05:06]

HERB: Now, the Office of Management and Budget where Duffy works, they downplayed this e-mail. They said it would be reckless to tie the hold of the funds to the President's call with the Ukrainian President. They said that pulling one line out of this e-mail would be misleading and inaccurate.

And we do know broadly, we've known before this, the timeline of how this aid was withheld. The decision was made in early July and Trump administration agencies, they were notified July 18th, the week before this e-mail, and then the formal order came the day of the call, July 25th.

What this e-mail does is it shows just potentially how connected those two events were: The President's call recorded at 9:03. Less than two hours later that the President finished that call, Duffy sent this e- mail at 11:04.

What we don't know of course is -- we don't actually know the full context of that e-mail because Duffy defied a subpoena in the House to testify. Now, as we heard from Schumer and we're going to hear from Democrats, they would like him to testify in the Senate. But that may ultimately be up to Republican's leader, McConnell and the moderates in his conference -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Jeremy Herb, thanks so much for that. So some senators, you know, on both sides of the aisle have already, you know, weighed in on guilt or innocence ahead of the upcoming Senate Impeachment Trial for President Trump.

Today, one Democratic senator called that rush to judgment a mistake and urge lawmakers on both sides to remain impartial ahead of the evidence being heard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: So is it a mistake for your fellow senators on both sides of the aisle, frankly, to say how they're going to vote before the trial starts?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): I really think it is. I think they've gone too far. You know, how can they hold their hands up and say I swear impartial justice, I'd like to sit at the manager's table with the President's team. You can't do that. They shouldn't have done it.

BASH: Well, Democrats have done it, too.

DURBIN: I've seen that with Senator McConnell and Senator Graham. Well, they shouldn't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right, me now, Shan Wu, a former Federal prosecutor and CNN legal analyst. Good to see you. Happy Holidays. So House Democrats, you know sent the Senate a list of four potential witnesses, including Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, former National Security adviser, John Bolton, and of course, now Michael Duffy, who is particularly in the spotlight with this, you know, e- mail chain, and more than 70 percent polled in a "Washington Post" poll this week say White House aides should testify.

So in your view, how fair of a trial, could the U.S. Senate trial be without witnesses?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It cannot be fair without witnesses. It's not really a trial and McConnell and the President's defenders don't want anything that looks remotely like a trial, Fred.

They are afraid of the facts, obviously. It's understandable if you have bad facts. They don't want any evidence produced at the trial, and that's how you produce evidence.

You have witnesses, you have documents, you have exhibits, and you know, from the reporting we're just listening to from Jeremy, it's so obvious why you need that because it plays right into the obstruction aspect, which is, they've suppressed important documents so they really need to hear what else is out there.

WHITFIELD: It would seem to me that it is being made even more difficult now with this kind of reporting. Michael Duffy being, you know, among those on the list of four being asked to testify.

So with the development of these e-mails and that timeline on A, being withheld and then eventually released to Ukraine, does the pressure mount on being able to hear from at least the Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, maybe even Michael Bolton, in your view?

WU: I think the pressure does mount. I think it's a very masterful move on Speaker Pelosi's part to withhold losing control of the impeachment by giving it to the Senate. So certainly more political pressure builds the longer that they hold it.

McConnell seems a man who is quite resistant to political pressure. So I'm not sure it's ultimately going to work.

WHITFIELD: Well, he may have a little company because listen to Senator Lindsey Graham who had this to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): To any senator who votes to compel the testimony of John Bolton or Mick Mulvaney before the President can have his day in court, exercising executive privilege before the courts, the court is available to every American, including Donald Trump. So if you call these witnesses who worked for the President after he

has invoked executive privilege, if you deny him his day in court, then you're abusing the constitutional rights of Donald Trump as President, and you're putting the entire presidency at risk.

I can't imagine any senator doing this to the presidency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Do you agree with that?

WU: No. I mean, one big problem with that is that the President has not actually invoked executive privilege. It's kind of silly that he is making that point.

Moreover, the general idea that you must go to the courts first is simply missing from the Constitution. The Constitution doesn't say before you can impeach, you have Judiciary clear anything. It's solely within the House's power to bring the impeachment and it's solely the duty of the Senate to try the case, and they don't want to do that.

[15:10:18]

WHITFIELD: And what would this trial look like without witnesses?

WU: Without witnesses, it looks something like a mishmash between a Motion to Dismiss a case, where there's no witnesses or evidence. There are just arguments that the legal elements haven't been made, or kind of like a Court of Appeals situation where you already have the record in this case, the House report, and the lawyers would just be making verbal arguments based on that record, so it would look something like that, but it would not look anything like a trial -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Shan Wu, always good to see you. Thank you so much. Happy Holidays.

WU: You're welcome. Happy Holidays.

WHITFIELD: All right, still ahead, 13 people shot at a home in Chicago and more than a dozen more shot in Baltimore and Minnesota. Details on what happened in all of these places and the hunt for suspects, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: On this Holiday weekend, a barrage of violence across America overnight. At least one person was killed and at least 26 others injured in three separate shootings across three states.

[15:15:01]

WHITFIELD: Thirteen of those people injured in Chicago following a celebration meant to honor the life of a person who police say was killed in April. CNN's Rosa Flores joins me right now with more details on this string

of violence. So do police have anyone in custody in any of these separate shootings?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, it depends on the shooting. When it comes to Chicago, they do have two people in custody, but they're not identifying these suspects.

But here is what we know about that shooting. There was a party going on in the south side like you just mentioned, and shots rang out inside the home at about 12:35 local time, and then people dispersed. Then there were shots fired outside the home including to a moving vehicle.

So when police arrived on scene, they had multiple scenes, 13 people had been injured, and here we are, during the Holiday season, Fred --

WHITFIELD: All different circumstances?

FLORES: And --

WHITFIELD: What types of circumstances?

FLORES: Right, exactly. And police are still bracing for more violence. Take a listen.

WHITFIELD: Oh gosh.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRED WALLER, CHICAGO POLICE CHIEF OF PATROL: We're going to have more police presence in that area today, all throughout this weekend. We know that the weather is going to be somewhat warmer than it normally is during this time, so we're going to have a lot more police presence in that area and in other various districts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: And in regards to the Chicago shooting, those two suspects, one of them is in the hospital because this individual sustained a gunshot wound. The other was arrested and at the time of the arrest, police were able to recover a weapon.

And Fred, we should add that even though there is there was a lot of violence this weekend. Overall, when you look at the year-to-date statistics released by the Chicago Police Department, shootings and murders are down.

WHITFIELD: Oh, is that right? So, there was a spate of shootings taking place in Minnesota and Baltimore as well.

FLORES: That's right and I should start with the one in Minnesota. The shots rang out in the parking lot of a restaurant. When police arrived, they found that a 19-year-old was dead and six others were injured. And we're still trying to learn more information about that particular shooting. But so far police have no suspects and no motive has been released.

When it comes to the shooting in Baltimore. The shots rang out probably about an hour after in downtown Baltimore. And when police arrived, they found four people that were shot on scene and then subsequently they learned that three others had walked themselves to the hospital.

WHITFIELD: Oh my gosh.

FLORES: And these details were just interesting, because a press conference just wrapped up. Police say that at least 19 shots were fired. They know of at least two shooters, three to four suspects, but there are no suspects in custody and they're still trying to figure out the motive.

And when it comes to national statistics, because of course we're talking about three particular shootings in three different states. But when you look at the statistics nationally, the latest report released by the F.B.I., it does show that that nationally, violent crime and murders are down year to year, so that just gives us a little bit of perspective.

WHITFIELD: But sadly, these separate shootings all unrelated, but the common thread here is people were injured this Holiday season.

FLORES: The violence.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thank you so much, Rosa Flores. Appreciate it.

All right. Coming up, President Trump's Space Force is finally coming together with the passing of a spending bill. What will this new military branch actually look like?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:28]

WHITFIELD: All right, President Trump claims victories signing a spending bill establishing the first new military service in more than 70 years. The Space Force is now the sixth branch of the Armed Forces.

The President says the Space Force will increase national security while protecting American interests in space.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Space is the world's newest war-fighting domain. Amid grave threats to our national security, American superiority in space is absolutely vital, and we're leading, but we're not leading by enough, but very shortly, we will be leading by a lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WHITFIELD: All right, joining me right now, CNN military analyst and

former Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton. Colonel Good to see you. Happy Holidays.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Happy Holidays to you, too, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: So what exactly will this Space Force be? Will it make Americans safer ultimately?

LEIGHTON: Well, that's the idea. It's really designed, Fredricka, to go in and really focus efforts on space.

The Chinese and the Russians have developed anti-satellite weapons that we want to counter and the Space Force is one way to put all the resources together to do that kind of thing.

So the idea would be that we use space as a way to protect some of the things that we've come to us for granted. For example, our communication systems, GPS -- those kinds of things. So the Space Force would be there to help protect that.

WHITFIELD: And so how would this Space Force, you know, measure up to the other five branches of the U.S. Military?

LEIGHTON: Well, it would be the smallest branch that we have. The next smallest branch is the United States Marine Corps. They have about 180,000 people associated with the Marine Corps. They're actually Marines either currently serving.

The Space Force, at its maximum is going to be about 15,000 people, which is about eight percent of the size of the Marine Corps. So it's going to be a very small Armed Force. It is designed to have a very specific mission.

In essence, it's going to be part of the Department of the Air Force. But it will be a separate service, just like the Marine Corps is a separate service, although it's part of the Department of the Navy.

WHITFIELD: All right, so America has had you know, a space exploration extension called NASA. So when people think of space exploration, and now they're hearing you know, Space Force. How do you see them being very different NASA versus Space Force?

[15:25:07]

LEIGHTON: Well, first of all, NASA is a civilian agency. So it's part of the U.S. government, but as an independent agency. Space Force, of course is part of the Department of Defense and it has a warfighting mission. And that means that NASA will focus and continue to focus on civilian spaceflight, on research efforts. The type of astronomical work that they do, aeronautical work that they do --

WHITFIELD: And research.

LEIGHTON: And research -- absolutely. But Space Force will do some of that there will be some areas of overlap, but Space Force will be the military arm of what we do in space, whereas NASA will continue to be the civilian arm.

WHITFIELD: All right, Colonel Cedric Leighton. Thank you so much. Happy Holidays.

LEIGHTON: Happy Holidays, Fredricka. Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Still ahead. Iowa residents sound off on the President's impeachment 43 days now before the first votes are cast for the presidential primary season.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think Trump will use it to his advantage. I guess, I do worry that he's going to be up there on stage bragging about how the Senate will exonerate him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:20]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: All right, welcome back. Forty three days and counting until the first-in-the nation Iowa Caucus. It will serve as the first major gauge on where voters stand ahead of November. And one central question surrounding this critical contest, will the impeachment of President Trump hurt or help his chances of reelection?

CNN's senior national correspondent Kyung Lah is an Iowa asking voters that very question and Kyung, they gave you an earful. What did they say?

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, because everyone's worried about it. Those 43 days that you were just talking about, Fredricka, in between that time is the Senate hearing, or at least a Senate trial. That's the assumption here in Iowa that it's going to run right up to the Iowa caucuses.

And so at these Democratic events where they're meeting the Democratic presidential candidates, a lot of these voters are concerned about the impact on 2020 on the caucuses, and what it is going to have in the general election?

So what we're hearing is, they believe it needs to happen, but they are worried.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA HENRY, IOWA VOTER: I think it's high time he was impeached. And I'm very saddened that it looks like the Senate is going to let him go scot free. I think it's a travesty. He needs to be removed from office for the things he has done. JERRY SMITH, IOWA VOTER: I think that the truth needs to come out. I

believe very strongly that they should have a fair trial in the Senate. I think there's several people that need to be testifying in the Senate. And I fully believe that obstruction is a serious issue.

JAN RYCHOBSKY, IOWA VOTER: I think he is definitely in trouble here. So I think from everything I've seen, everything I've read, unfortunately, some bad choices were made. And I think he should be impeached. And I think the Senate should bring more witnesses in. And I think they should take it seriously.

I think it matters, and I think it's going to be a black mark on the Republicans for a long time, especially the way Mitch McConnell was coming at it, you know, just announcing that he's not going to do anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: Now, there is a concern, too, that Republicans will be able to fundraise successfully off of a Senate trial. It is something that they're already seeing in the battleground states, at least the Democrats are. They are concerned about what it's meant for the Trump campaign.

But the last person that that voter mentioned, Fredricka, Mitch McConnell, they also point out, he is up for reelection in 2020. There are also vulnerable senators who are up who are Republicans, so they're also hopeful that any sort of vote that they have in this Senate trial will impact them next year -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Kyung Lah, thank you so much for bringing that to us. Appreciate it.

Let's talk more about all of this and this week's impeachment vote and how it may play out at the ballot box. I want to bring in CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist, Hillary Rosen and CNN legal commentator and former Trump White House lawyer, Jim Schultz. Good to see both of you. Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, all of it.

So, Jim, you first you know, you just heard from Iowa to argue that this is a stain on the Republican Party. Do you see it that way?

JIM SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Well, no surprise that you're hearing that from folks attending the Iowa Democratic caucuses. I think you'll get a strikingly different response from folks that are Republicans who aren't intending to attend those Republican caucuses.

I think one thing for certain is that they are worried how this impacts 2020 and they should be. I think Nancy Pelosi's move the other day to hold this up, when they say this -- she said this President needs to be removed immediately. It is a sense of urgency. Yet, hold up a second, we want to wait. That doesn't make any sense.

And I think the American voters, it just further solidifies in some of the American voters' minds that this is truly a political play on the part of the Democrats here. And remember, they didn't come up with any high crimes or misdemeanors or crimes that they could specifically point to, that they were talking about all along. It all came out light in the end. And I think there's a reason for that, because they know they couldn't stand -- they couldn't stand on any of the crimes that had been committed.

WHITFIELD: Except the abuse of power -- and you've heard the legal analyst say that abuse of power is a high crime. So Hillary, you know --

SCHULTZ: Yes, but it's not the crimes that they were mentioning.

WHITFIELD: Well, okay, but there are two Articles and one of them is a high crime, which is abuse of power and then obstruction of Congress. So Hillary --

SCHULTZ: All right, the obstruction of Congress comes from -- but the obstruction of Congress comes from their failure to take the thing through the court system. You know, we've heard experts testifying materially that's --

HILLARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, it comes from an unwillingness for Donald Trump to allow people who know more about this issue to testify and preventing them from doing so.

SCHULTZ: Really? Or is it lawyers protecting the integrity of the Executive Branch.

[13:35:07]

ROSEN: The only reason you have to go to court is if the administration -- the only reason you'd have to go to court is if the administration refuses to cooperate, if the administration obstructs Congress, that's why they wouldn't.

SCHULTZ: No, that's not wrong. You're not a lawyer, you don't understand this process. That's not right.

ROSEN: For you to suggest that they are to go to court -- yes, well, luckily it is right.

SCHULTZ: Well, when a subpoena issues -- let me give you a little primer here.

WHITFIELD: But the White House did. Jim, the White House has not honored the subpoenas.

SCHULTZ: When a subpoena issues --

ROSEN: This is irrelevant.

WHITFIELD: The White House has blocked people from testifying and handing over evidence.

SCHULTZ: Right, just because Congress --

WHITFIELD: So you do agree with that. That is true.

SCHULTZ: Congress doesn't have the final word here. Congress issues a subpoena, then the individuals or the branch of government has an ability to object to those subpoenas. And then the issuing body has an ability to take it to court, including the Circuit Courts and the Supreme Court of the United States.

They've done none of that because they don't care. They just wanted to push it through and now, all of a sudden, they are putting the brakes on it because I don't like what the Republicans are doing.

ROSEN: Okay, you know what? This is ridiculous.

SCHULTZ: When it was a sham process to begin with.

ROSEN: Stop talking now.

WHITFIELD: All right, except there is that option --

ROSEN: All right, you've had your fill because --

WHITFIELD: So Hillary, let's talk about what Americans ...

SCHULTZ: Stop talking.

WHITFIELD: ... believe by way of some of this polling. A CNN polling finding this week that 45 percent, you know, surveyed believed the President should be impeached and removed from office. And one has to wonder whether new information concerning e-mails involving Michael Duffy at the O.M.B. revealing that aid was withheld for a period of time and then suddenly released as it became public that there was a whistleblower complaint.

Do you believe that in any way changes or galvanizes Democrats to press on hearing witnesses before a U.S. Senate trial?

ROSEN: I don't -- I don't think the facts are even in dispute here whether or not money was withheld. There are multiple times where people in the Trump White House have said that that was the case. The only issue is whether the Republicans think this is serious enough.

And I do think that the only reason that impeachment will have some impact next year, is if Americans don't believe that the Republicans in the Senate have taken a look at the facts seriously.

And so, other than that, I think that mostly voters are baked in on this. They think that Donald Trump did something wrong. They overwhelmingly say that, but they're not sure whether he should be removed from office for it, and that's a different issue.

So I think what we have next year is the same issue we have this year, which is a multitude of ways where Donald Trump has failed the American people, has lied to the American people, and voters are going to be able to weigh that if not in an impeachment trial in the Senate, then at the ballot box in November.

WHITFIELD: So Jim --

SCHULTZ: I'll tell you what, either on jobs, the economy and all the successes, so you could talk about failures and all the other things that are just not there, and I don't -- yes, the American people -- we should be taking this to the American people.

WHITFIELD: Well, what portion isn't there?

SCHULTZ: We shouldn't be doing this political sideshow that we're calling impeachment.

WHITFIELD: The President himself -- Mick Mulvaney admitted that there was a quid pro quo.

ROSEN: Let's talk about --

WHITFIELD: You had the President who invited China to look into his political opponents. So what portion are you saying it's not there because that really is what the impeachment is about, Jim?

SCHULTZ: So, no, what the impeachment is about as two things, obstruction of Congress, which isn't there and hasn't been there because they didn't avail themselves of the ability to go through the courts.

WHITFIELD: Well, the White House admits that one though.

SCHULTZ: That's not there.

WHITFIELD: But doesn't the White House admit that it withheld evidence?

SCHULTZ: Okay, and abuse of power? Is that what we're talking about here? What are the facts that lead to abuse of power here? There has been no treason. There has been no bribery. All the things they talked about.

WHITFIELD: But wait a minute, Jim? The White House has admitted that it has withheld evidence and it has not allowed people to present their testimony ...

ROSEN: Jim, stop it. You're abusing power right now on air.

WHITFIELD: ... by way of subpoena.

ROSEN: Stop filibustering her. Go ahead, Fred. Ask the question.

WHITFIELD: Well, I mean, it's the same question, Jim. It is on the issue of obstruction of Congress, the White House has not denied not withholding witnesses and evidence. The White House has, you know, kept people from testifying right?

SCHULTZ: Correct.

WHITFIELD: And isn't that one of the Articles? SCHULTZ: And lawfully, because they had a color of -- a colorable

claim to not have the witnesses testify, and therefore it goes to the courts. Congress doesn't have the last word on testifying.

ROSEN: If they had nothing to hide, they would let them testify. If they had nothing to hide they'd let them testify.

SCHULTZ: Congress does not have the last word that.

ROSEN: Let's go back though -- let's go -- well, actually a separation of powers, Congress does have the right to have this word.

SCHULTZ: They participate in the process, it started --

ROSEN: So let's go to whether or not this issue --

SCHULTZ: They don't have the last word. There's a third branch, I'm not sure if you know about that or not. It's called the court system.

ROSEN: Yes. Well, you only have to fight your way in court if you have something to hide from the Congress. Otherwise, you don't do that.

SCHULTZ: Oh, really? Anybody who goes to court has something to hide in this country?

WHITFIELD: Well, let's talk about where we are. We are at the Holiday break --

ROSEN: That's the whole premise of the court system -- the whole premise of the court system is to protect the rights of the citizens of this country.

ROSEN: We need what the administration is doing.

WHITFIELD: Members of Congress perhaps considering talking about the next steps which is a U.S. Senate trial.

ROSEN: Why are you even arguing things that the President Trump doesn't argue? I don't even get that. That's what's happened here is that Republicans have started being so talking point loyal to the President that they're even going farther than the President does. He says, yes I did it, but there was nothing wrong with it and everybody here is saying he didn't do anything.

SCHULTZ: I'm making legal arguments -- legal process arguments here that makes sense and that legal scholars have said makes sense.

ROSEN: No, because the legal process arguments is really not -- it's not a point here. It's not. It's actually not a point.

[15:40:09]

SCHULTZ: Really? Oh, it's not. It's just not because you say it isn't. I get it. That's a wise argument.

WHITFIELD: Well, the point that we are at right now is that ...

ROSEN: Because this is a legal process. There is no argument against it.

WHITFIELD: ... there may be a Senate trial. Do we believe there will be a Senate trial?

SCHULTZ: Correct. There is a legal process and they didn't follow it.

WHITFIELD: Does anyone hear me? So, Jim, do we believe there is going to be a Senate trial?

SCHULTZ: I do believe there is going to be a Senate trial.

WHITFIELD: Under what circumstances?

SCHULTZ: And I do believe that Nancy Pelosi has hurt the Democratic Party by holding the thing up.

And look, when they wanted to put their process forward, they weren't asking for input from the other side in the House. They did whatever they wanted to do. They held it in the basement. They started out in Nadler's committee. That was an absolute disaster.

Then they held -- then they held depositions in the basement, where they didn't allow questions from the White House Counsel's Office and then to make up for all of that they said, okay, we're going to hold a public hearing, and invite the White House now that the cake is already baked.

ROSEN: This is just nonsense.

SCHULTZ: I've said that time and time again.

ROSEN: This is nonsense. It's not even true. Nothing you just said is true. But let's talk about Nancy Pelosi, quickly, Fred, before we leave, which is that actually Congress went into recess so Nancy Pelosi is not delaying a single thing in the Senate. Nothing was going to happen until January anyway.

The other thing that Nancy Pelosi did this year is they passed a legislation to lower prescription drugs. They passed legislation to require universal background checks. They passed legislation against for Violence against Women Act. All legislation that is overwhelmingly supported by the American people. A minimum wage increase -- supported by the American people all dying in the Republican Senate.

That's what Democrats are going to run on. That's what's going to hurt Donald Trump next year. And that's where Nancy Pelosi, I think, is going to prove to be successful here whether or not the Senate buries the impeachment rules or not.

WHITFIELD: All right, we shall see. All right, we'll leave it there for now. Hillary Rosen, Tim Schultz, good to see you all. Happy Holidays. And we'll be right back.

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[15:45:59]

WHITFIELD: All right, the editor of an evangelical Christian magazine is defending an op-ed in which he called for President Trump to be impeached.

The editor of "Christianity Today," Mark Galli has been blasted by the President as being far left. And today, Galli explained that the reasons he decided to criticize the President.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK GALLI, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, CHRISTIANITY TODAY: The point of my argument is not to judge him as a person in the eyes of God, that's not my job, but to judge his moral, his public moral character and ask, has he gone so far that the evangelical constituency that we represent, can we in good conscience, do the tradeoff anymore? He gives us what we need on pro-life, but he's got this bad character.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: In "The Washington Post," columnist Nancy French also defended Galli's editorial, writing in part, "A Christianity dependent on Trump is a weak faith, indeed." Adding, "Christianity has endured and flourished for two millennia, often against unimaginable persecution. When a faith is sustained by God, it has no need to compromise its witness in service of an adulterous, mendacious reality TV star."

And with me now, Nancy French, the opinion writer for "The Washington Post," who wrote that editorial in which I just borrowed some of that language. So Nancy, good to see you. Why is it important for you to write this to defend Mark Galli?

NANCY FRENCH, OPINION WRITER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, I think it just shows that Christians are finally able and ready to declare that the tenets that we've been proposing for the past two decades are not partisan, but they're actually deeply held beliefs.

Galli's essay was not an attack on the President as much as it was just a basic defense of Christian principles and morals.

WHITFIELD: And so for evangelicals who perhaps don't support this President, has this editorial, Galli's editorial made any type of impact on it in your view?

FRENCH: You know, it's hard to tell. I think what it says is that there is a remnant, a part of the Christian Church that will not tolerate any longer what Donald Trump has been doing.

I think a lot of us held our noses and voted for President Trump. I didn't. But a lot of people did, hoping that they could forgive what he did in the past and see a better person. That he would surround himself with good people who would do the right thing.

He has done a couple of great things. But he has disappointed us repeatedly. And I think that this -- part of the Church is uncomfortable.

WHITFIELD: But he still has strong, particularly white evangelical support, does he not?

FRENCH: He does and it's very disappointing to me personally as a Presbyterian.

WHITFIELD: How do you explain it?

FRENCH: Well, if you look at the Church as a whole, you're right. Trump has a lot of support with white evangelicals, but if you encompass all of the Church, there's a lot more discomfort about supporting him than the polls look.

WHITFIELD: And what are people saying?

FRENCH: Well, you know, they're just saying that they're voting for the lesser of two evils, that there's not a good option on the Democratic side, which I completely have sympathy for.

But the thing is, you have to at some point, quit defending the indefensible. It's one thing to say I will support President Trump and I will support his good policies. But President Trump demands that you're obsequious. He demands your full support.

He doesn't just allow you to support Policy A or Policy B while condemning his actions, and that's what's so disappointing is that members of the Church, maybe people who aren't as serious about their theology will defend the indefensible and call evil good.

WHITFIELD: But are you and Mark Galli kind of anomalies that you're willing to speak out publicly against the President when largely -- and you just said it yourself -- particularly white evangelicals do support the President even though they may grimace at a few things when it comes to, you know their vote, he still has it.

[15:50:09]

FRENCH: You're exactly right. But the good thing about Christianity, the good news about it is that it does not operate by consensus. So it has flourished for thousands of years independently of what the world has thought.

And so currently, right now, there's a remnant of people who have decided that President Trump has gone too far and that we are no longer willing to make compromises for this President.

WHITFIELD: Nancy French, thanks so much. Have a great Holiday. Merry Christmas.

FRENCH: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right, we're back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Bad weather is being blamed for a massive chain reaction accident today in Eastern Virginia. State Police say more than 60 vehicles crashed on I-64 outside Richmond because of foggy, icy conditions early this morning.

Dozens of people were taken to the hospital for treatment, but no deaths had been reported. This huge accident scene, forcing authorities to close both sides of the Interstate for several hours. What a mess.

But a short time ago, they were able to get the eastbound lanes up and running again.

Ten million people are under flood watches across Georgia and South Carolina now with as much as eight inches expected in some areas. Meteorologist, Tom Sater is tracking the storm for us from the Weather Center. Tom, what do you have?

TOM SATER, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, Fredricka, about a week ago, the computer models were hinting that maybe we could see a storm system move into the Gulf that would have some tropical characteristics and here it is.

I mean the only characteristic really is ugly. This is a cold raw rainfall from Baton Rouge to Nashville to Charlotte. Some flight delays are possible even severe weather on the southern end, but it's going to take its time moving across Northern Florida overnight. Rain should end by tomorrow.

[15:55:18]

SATER: We can say goodbye to this system, but the flood watches are in effect. Even the flash flood watches, some river flooding as the creeks are now rising. We've seen a lot of rain in this region of the country.

Southern Florida, severe weather so we could have water spouts, maybe a few spin ups, a few thunderstorms, and that's usually -- that's going to be from around West Palm southward.

But four or five, six inches of rain, a few eight-inch possibilities as you get closer to the coastline, Coastal South and North Carolina and even parts of Georgia.

Out West, it's another storm system. We've had 85-mile-per-hour wind gusts. We've had some flooding in Oakland. There are some power outages and this is going to drop a lot of valley rainfall and mountain snow. We call it a Pineapple Express because it looks like it originates from Hawaiian Islands as it moves in.

The good news though, looking forward to this week, a big warm up for most of the lower 48, mild temperatures. We could see temperatures that are 10 to 20 degrees warmer than they should be, with the exception of far to the northeast and areas of the Mountain West still getting that holiday snow -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Tom Sater. Thank you so much.

SATER: Sure.

WHITFIELD: All right, two best friends. One epic night ring in the New Year with Anderson Cooper and Andy Cohen. New Year's Eve Live begins at eight Eastern right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Hello, again, everyone.

[16:05:10]