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Stalemate Deepens Between Democrats and G.O.P. Leaders Over Trump's Trial; D.O.J. Invokes Impeachment In Fight Over McGahn Testimony; North Korea Sent The U.S. A Warning For The Holidays. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 23, 2019 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: 737 MAX starting next month. And that is it for me. Jessica Dean continues our coverage right now.

[14:00:16]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean, in for Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. We're so glad to have you with us this afternoon. Ninety minutes: That's how quickly the Trump administration moved to freeze military aid to Ukraine following President Trump's July 25th call with his Ukrainian counterpart, President Zelensky.

New e-mail show the White House Budget Office directed the Pentagon to hold off on releasing that money pending a review. But there was also this instruction, quote, "Given the sensitive nature of that request, I appreciate your keeping that information closely held to those who need to know to execute direction."

The man behind that request -- Mike Duffy, a Trump political appointee and Budget official and Duffy just happens to be one of several witnesses Democrats would like to see in person at an impeachment trial.

This latest revelation sparked this reaction from Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): If there was ever an argument that we need Mr. Duffy to come testify, this is that information. This e-mail is explosive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: CNN covering all angles from the White House to Capitol Hill, Sarah Westwood, traveling with the President. She is in West Palm Beach and Lauren Fox is in Washington. Let's start first with Sarah. The President may be on vacation, but impeachment clearly still at the top of his mind.

He lashed out at Speaker Pelosi this morning for delaying sending those Impeachment Articles to the Senate. But is the White House at all concerned that these new e-mails could bolster the Democrats' case to call witnesses?

SARAH WESTWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, right now, Jessica, the White House is downplaying the revelatory nature of these e-mails with us spokesperson for the Budget Office telling CNN that it is reckless and misleading to connect the e-mails to the phone call that President Trump had with Ukrainian President Zelensky.

Keep in mind that the e-mail was sent just 90 minutes after Trump hung up the phone with Zelensky. But nonetheless, the O.M.B. spokesperson noted that the hold on aid to Ukraine was announced a week before that phone call, July 18th, during an interagency meeting.

And while it is true that some agencies were notified of the intent to suspend some of that security assistance to Ukraine, this was the first official action that was taken to notify the Pentagon that they needed to sit on those millions of dollars of funds to Ukraine.

The person who wrote that e-mail, as you mentioned, Mike Duffy is someone that Senate Democrats are interested in talking to if and when the Senate trial starts.

They also want to see documents. So the fact that these e-mails are coming out now after the House has already completed its inquiry sort of bolsters Democrats' argument that there is more investigating still to be done.

Now, White House officials say that President Trump is eager to get to his trial. He doesn't just want to be acquitted, he wants to be vindicated. And so President Trump, eager to get that trial started.

He is going after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi for continuing to withhold those Articles of Impeachment from the Senate. This morning, tweeting that Pelosi was, quote, "breaking all the rules by withholding the Articles."

Sources tell CNN that there are a number of decisions about the President's trial and the White House's strategy for dealing with it that are to be made while the President is down here in Mar-a-Lago. He'll return after two weeks to what will hopefully according to the White House, be the start of the Senate trial.

Who will present opening and closing arguments? Who will be on that team? Those are things that the White House is sorting out. But Jessica, the situation remains very fluid with a lot of uncertainty surrounding the details of that trial at this moment.

DEAN: Yes, just a lot of questions there. For more on that, let's go to Lauren Fox who is on Capitol Hill. Lauren, this morning, Senator Mitch McConnell, who's blasted House Dems for his words, a thin and deficient case for impeachment spoke out on a key sticking point for the trial. That's witnesses. What did he say?

LAUREN FOX, CNN POLITICS U.S. CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, McConnell has been arguing for some time, Jessica that he does not think a decision about witnesses should be at the beginning of the trial. Instead, what he has been arguing is Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House needs to send over those Articles of Impeachment. Once she does that, then there can be a discussion about getting this trial started.

So that was the key sticking point between the top Democrat in the Senate, Senator Schumer and McConnell just before this two-week recess. Now, lawmakers are gone, and McConnell earlier today had this to say about where a Senate trial stands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): All I'm asking of Schumer is that we treat Trump the same way we treated Clinton. We had a procedure that was approved 100 to nothing, Schumer voted for it, to go through the opening arguments, to have a written question period and then based upon that, deciding what witnesses to call. We haven't ruled out witnesses. We've said let's handle this case just like we did with President Clinton. Fair is fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:05:10]

FOX: And McConnell has been making the case, Jessica, that what he wants to happen is he'll have the House managers, the Democrats present their case, then the White House would have an opportunity to respond on the Senate floor. Then there would be a decision about witnesses.

Of course, this the key sticking point between Democrats and Republicans right now, as the standoff on Capitol Hill continues -- Jessica.

DEAN: All right, Lauren Fox for us in Washington, Sarah Westwood in West Palm Beach. Thanks to both of you.

And after criticizing Democrats for not going to the courts to force top Trump aides to testify in their Impeachment Inquiry, the Trump administration is now saying the courts should not weigh in at all, at least when it comes to Don McGahn.

The House Judiciary Committee subpoenaed the former White House counsel earlier this year as part of a potential Impeachment Inquiry related to Trump's attempts to obstruct the Russian investigation.

But the White House says now that impeachment has gone forward, there's no rush to settle the dispute over McGahn. The D.C. Court of Appeals is set to hear oral arguments in that case next month.

Tim Neftali is a CNN presidential historian and the former director of the Nixon Presidential Library and Harry Litman is a former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, as well as a former U.S. Attorney. You guys are going to help us break down all this information here. Thanks so much for being with us.

We're going to dig into impeachment in just a moment. But first, Harry, DOJ making the argument that there's no sense of urgency to resolve this case for two reasons. One, the House voted to impeach without hearing from McGahn on obstruction and two, the obstruction Article of Impeachment is focused on Ukraine, not that Russia investigation. Do you think this is a valid argument for them?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: I don't. It's focused on, but they were very careful to add this as a continuing course of conduct and remember what Mueller found about McGahn, really classic obstructive conduct worse than I think anything we've seen with Nixon or past Presidents in which the President told McGahn to fire Mueller, and then told him to lie about it.

Now, the House article specifically mentions this as a continuing course of conduct. So you have the Republicans talking about both sides of their mouths simultaneously saying, oh, you don't need it now. But also saying you should let the judicial process run its course.

Then, of course, they run to the courts and say, bury this. So I think it's something any normal trial would certainly have.

DEAN: And, Tim, I want to ask you, the President, we've heard is fond of saying over and over again that his top officials get absolute immunity. Don McGahn being one of them, they argue, that's why they don't have to testify and Mitch McConnell said today that Trump did what every President since George Washington has done when it comes to executive privilege. But what's the precedent for this in your opinion?

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, there are two things or two issues here. One is whether you accept the proposition that the founders accepted, which is that an Impeachment Inquiry is different, that it's not the same as the natural push and pull between the two branches.

If you accept their proposition, which George Washington explained in a letter to the House in the 1790s --

DEAN: Going back a little bit there.

NAFTALI: Going back a bit. Then you have to say that this is different. This stonewall by the President isn't something we've never seen before in an Impeachment Inquiry. So it is different. It is not the same.

DEAN: It is not the same.

NAFTALI: It is not the same.

DEAN: All right. Well, let's go back to Harry for a moment. Let's talk about impeachment. This morning, Speaker Pelosi tweeted, "The House can't choose our impeachment managers until we know what kind of trial the Senate will have. President Trump blocked his own witnesses and documents from the House and the American people on phony complaints about the House process. What is his excuse now?"

That coming from Nancy Pelosi. So Harry outside of frustrating the President, what do you think is the strategic advantage of withholding these Articles of Impeachment right now? LITMAN: I mean, it's totally clear, McConnell, here is you know, Lucy

with the football and wanting to play Charlie Brown. This is not the same as Clinton and what the obvious point is, once it gets into his clutches, he'll be able to ram through whatever he wants on the barest of majority.

So the real point as with Clinton, if you want witnesses, the Dems have only this barest of leverages to play. And they're playing it. They're saying we need witnesses, and by the way, Jessica, even more, they need documents.

From a prosecutorial point of view, yes, you want to hear Mike Duffy, but that piece of paper which they just got, by chance, through a FOIA request from another group speaks volumes, and what puts the lie to the notion of this was just normal business is that last piece that you focused on saying, don't tell anybody about this, keep this quiet. That's the sort of thing that any prosecutor would put front and center before a jury.

DEAN: Well, yes, that's -- I'm interested in your perspective because you spent a career doing this. It sounds like that would have stuck out brightly to you if you were looking at this case.

LITMAN: That's right.

[14:10:09]

LITMAN: That would go immediately into -- in to a binder of sort of 20 hot documents. Documents are the real stock and trade here the gold standard. They don't lie. They don't go south on you on the stand. They really prove where things were at the time. Any juror reading this would know the story.

DEAN: And Tim, to that end, Chuck Schumer has called these new e- mails, explosive. And he says that they show why witnesses -- why witness testimony is so very important in all of this.

What do you think the chances are of them actually getting these e- mails into this trial, getting this witness testimony things that the Democrats are asking?

NAFTALI: Well, I would say -- it's very hard to put odds on this. It really in part depends on the American people. If the American people start asking their representatives, their senators to dig a little deeper, then we might see action.

If the American people think that this is finished, that it's Kabuki Theater, I suspect most senators will just allow Mitch McConnell to decide that this is a show trial.

Let me tell you one thing that's really important. In the Nixon impeachment, the evidentiary base kept growing. The famous smoking gun transcript, it comes out after the House Judiciary Committee voted. So it's not unusual that the documents get better and better and better. And as, you know, as we've seen -- as we've been saying, they matter.

So it's up to A, the Senate -- the Democratic senators and make the case. B, Mitch McConnell has to listen to his base and C, those in the middle who haven't chosen, who haven't decided, they need to put pressure on their representatives to get the facts out.

After all, if the facts are good to the President, let him be acquitted for the right reasons. If the facts are not good to the President, let the Senate do its constitutional duty.

DEAN: Yes, and it's interesting because if you look at the polling on all of this, it seems that Americans really have chosen one side or the other. There aren't many that are kind of -- you know, undecided.

NAFTALI: Or they're not watching.

DEAN: Or they're not watching.

NAFTALI: So after the Holidays, everyone have a great Holiday. Merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah. Happy New Year. And then after the Holidays, look at this because it's the most important thing our country faces. And then tell your representative what to do.

DEAN: Very interesting. And Harry, for you, you say for a prosecutor, you mentioned this, you just said it. It's always about those documents. Does this undercut the argument from Trump allies that the House failed to make a strong case since they were blocked from using these and other documents?

LITMAN: Yes, except the argument doesn't hold up. Anyway, remember just two weeks ago, it seemed overwhelming and clear. But this is like belts and suspenders and elastic waistband. I mean, the additional proof.

And one quick point on your polls, you know, we've had again and again, an absolute stone -- you know, lock of his whole base. Seventy percent plus say let's have more witnesses. That means people even in the vaunted Trump base agree, and we're just talking, as Tim says about three senators or so, to go along with just having more evidence. They don't have to say that Trump should be convicted. That really there -- the Mitt Romney's of the world are really pivotal now.

DEAN: Yes, it's going to be very interesting to see what he and others like him do. Harry Litman, Tim Naftali. Thank you.

LITMAN: Thank you very much. Thanks.

DEAN: We appreciate it very much. North Korea sent the U.S. a warning for the Holidays. New CNN reporting on what Kim Jong-un may have meant when he talked about that Christmas gift.

Plus, Donald Trump's takeover of the G.O.P. What keeps party members in lockstep with the President as we get closer to the Senate trial?

And Eddie Murphy's return to "Saturday Night Live." A look at how the past and the present.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDDIE MURPHY, AMERICAN ACTOR: Who is directing this picture? Me. Who wrote this picture? Me. This is the Gumby story, damn it. And Gumby does not say damn it.

How the hell are people not going to know who I am? I am Gumby, damn it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:23]

DEAN: Now to North Korea's warning of a quote, "Christmas gift" to the U.S. A source tells CNN it is likely not a missile test, but rather a hardline policy against the U.S. that will fully take denuclearization off the table.

The source says North Korea sees President Trump as more vulnerable because of his impeachment, and this tougher talk comes amid more provocative pictures from two sites inside the rogue nation.

Satellite pictures show new work at facilities linked to North Korean missile production. Notice on the right there, a building that is not in the photo on the left side. CNN's Paula Hancocks has the latest on North Korean tensions with the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: With just two days away until Christmas, officials are still wondering what this potential Christmas gift is that North Korea has threatened to give to the United States.

Recent satellite imagery shows that there is increased activity at two sites. The first one, the Sohae satellite launch site, which is where we have seen in recent weekends two suspected engine tests and also at another site where production of ICBM, the Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles has happened in the past.

Trump administration officials telling CNN that they believe North Korea may be preparing to test either engines or components for their missile program.

Now, this comes at the same time as the former National Security adviser to the White House, John Bolton has been saying to AXIOS that he believes that the White House policy is not towards denuclearization, saying that the idea that we are somebody exerting maximum pressure on North Korea is just unfortunately, not true.

Also saying that if the end goal was for denuclearization that quote, "It would be pursuing a different course." Now, we also heard from a source familiar with North Korean thinking, telling CNN that they believe a nuclear test or an ICBM test around Christmas is not very likely, confirming what other experts had said, which is that North Korea does not want to risk angering its main ally and trading partner China and also Russia.

Also saying that it is expected according to this source that North Korean leader Kim Jong-un will pursue a harder line policy when it comes to the United States. We've already heard from North Korean official to the United Nations, the Ambassador there that denuclearization is off the table.

Now, over the weekend, we know there has been a meeting in Pyongyang. Kim Jong-un was talking to top military officials. According to state-run media, he briefed them on a complicated internal and external situation and they did discuss military steps to bolster the overall forces.

[14:20:15]

HANCOCKS: Now that comes ahead of a key Workers Party meeting expected at the end of this month where potentially we could hear Kim Jong-un telling the regime exactly what the policy towards the U.S. will be. There was no specifics about the U.S. after this weekend meeting, and then we could well hear in his New Year's address what exactly he intends to do.

Paula Hancocks, CNN, Seoul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: All right, Paula, thank you. As the Pentagon braces for what North Korea will do, the White House is getting a bashing from Trump's former National Security adviser, John Bolton. He gave his sharpest rebuke yet of how the president is handling the country.

Bolton telling AXIOS he does not think the administration, quote, "really means it" when President Trump and top officials vowed to stop North Korea from having nuclear weapons. He went on to say, quote, "The idea that we are somehow exerting maximum pressure on North Korea is just unfortunately not true."

And a short time ago, Bolton tweeted this, quote, "We say that it's unacceptable for North Korea to obtain nuclear weapons, but that's more rhetorical than a real policy at this point. The risk to U.S. forces and our allies is imminent, and more effective policy is required before North Korea has the technology to threaten the American homeland."

CNN national security analyst David Sanger is a national security correspondent for "The New York Times." Hi, David, thanks for being with us.

DAVID SANGER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Great to be with you, Jessica.

DEAN: Well, how will the North Korean see Bolton's comments? I just read some of them did. Did he just weaken the President's position in your opinion?

SANGER: You know, I think he pretty accurately laid out the position that President Trump has taken. And he made the same critique, of course of President Obama and before that, of President Bush in whose presidency Mr. Bolton also served.

The essential argument that Mr. Bolton is taking is that if you truly want to denuclearize North Korea in his mind, you have to do full-on sanctions, and that means intercepting oil shipments as he pointed out in that AXIOS article -- at sea.

What's interesting is that none of the three administrations that Mr. Bolton has critiqued on this have been willing to go do that, including the two that he served in, because they didn't want to risk war.

So yes, there are things you could go do to North Korea, and I think Mr. Bolton has accurately laid out the way the North Koreans have read President Trump, which is they can play this for time. They've been building up the capacity to build more and more nuclear weapons during the time since President Trump met Kim Jong-un in Singapore.

And I think they think they can keep going at this and they're probably right.

DEAN: And you kind of alluded to this just a moment ago, but what do you think John Bolton's endgame is for this? Does he want to get into a conflict? Do you think that he sees that as the only solution to this?

SANGER: I think that what Mr. Bolton has an easier time doing when he is out of office than when he's in office, is lay out the fundamental contradiction here, which is, if you really want to stop North Korea from getting nuclear weapons, if that's really your top priority, then you do everything including risk war, to stop them.

And when in office, he's had to go serve Presidents bush and Trump, who said, you know, we don't want the North Koreans to get nuclear weapons, but we're not willing to go risk war. And as a result, the North Koreans in both cases have read this as an opportunity to accelerate.

DEAN: He also told AXIOS in that interview, he is hoping the White House is going to do something it very rarely does, which is admit that they're wrong, particularly on North Korea in this case, do you think that's in the realm of possibility the White House reversing course saying they were wrong?

SANGER: It doesn't seem likely for this President. In fact, at the Singapore Summit, a number of us asked President Trump, when will we know if this is successful? And he said, oh, I think you'll begin to see disarmament in six months or so.

And he suggested, if you don't see it, come back and talk to me about it. And he said, maybe I'll tell you I was wrong. And then he quickly added. Now, I probably wouldn't tell you that so, you know, don't bother.

Well, clearly, the strategy they have been pursuing has not slowed North Korea down. And part of the reason is that they did not negotiate a freeze on North Korean production as the price for the President having a first meeting with the North Korean leader.

And I think had they done that, and I'm not sure they would have been able to, but had they attempted that, they might not be in a situation where the situation is getting worse while the negotiations drag on.

[14:25:08]

DEAN: And quickly before I let you go, a source telling CNN North Korea is planning to adopt this hardline policy against the United States that I mentioned that is going to take denuclearization off the table and abandon negotiations. And they see -- they say that North Korea sees the President as vulnerable because of impeachment.

Do you think -- I know you said they're stretching this out with time -- do you also think that those things are playing into it in what's happening domestically with the President?

SANGER: Well, certainly I think they recognize the President is entering an election campaign. And that part of this is that he wants to convince his base that he is the first President who has brought about peace with North Korea. And so getting back into a fire and fury kind of repartee with them, which is what he did in 2017, when he was making threats to the country wouldn't serve that purpose.

So I think they recognize that they can string this along at least through the election year. I think the President also, still has some hope that his strategy is somehow going to work that he can persuade Kim Jong-un in these one-on-one meetings. His staff is clearly very leery of getting him into another Summit that doesn't result in anything.

DEAN: All right, we'll see what's yet to come. David Sanger. Thanks so much for being with us.

SANGER: Thank you. Great to be with you.

DEAN: All right. Eddie Murphy returns to "Saturday Night Live," bringing back all his classic characters. So how did the humor hold up after 35 years?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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