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Standoff Over Senate Trial Likely to Last Weeks; Rudy Giuliani Unloads in Rambling New Interview; Trump Speaks with Military Members via Video from Mar-a-Lago. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 24, 2019 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:11]

RYAN NOBLES, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Thank you so much for joining us for a special edition of CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Ryan Nobles. Poppy Harlow and Jim Sciutto are off.

Right now, on Christmas Eve, a Senate standoff over impeachment is under way on Capitol Hill. Heading into the holidays, Democrats and Republicans refusing to give way on trial rules. And as the stalemate appears destined to stretch into the new year, Democrats in the House of Representatives are still fighting for the testimony of former White House counsel Don McGahn. Even suggesting to a federal appeals judge that McGahn's testimony could ultimately lead to -- you're hearing this right -- more articles of impeachment.

Let's begin with CNN congressional correspondent Lauren Fox. She's live on Capitol Hill this morning.

There's probably a lot of people taking a deep sigh, Lauren, when they hear the possibility of more articles of impeachment. Tell us just how realistic this might be.

LAUREN FOX, CNN POLITICS CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Ryan. And, remember, those 31 Democrats who are in Trump districts in the House, they're the ones who are going to be sighing the loudest about the idea of more articles of impeachment.

Look, this is likely just an argument that was being made by Doug Letter, the House counsel, in court as a way to emphasize why they still need to get testimony from Don McGahn. The Justice Department is arguing, look, if you already passed articles of impeachment, why do you need to hear from this person?

What Doug Letter is arguing is well, what if he has more relevant information that would lead to more articles of impeachment? Or, and I think this is the more relevant point, what if he has information that would help in a Senate trial, which, of course, is the next stage of where things are going?

Of course, there's a disagreement between Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer over the question of witnesses. Here's what Schumer said yesterday about the sense of getting witnesses.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): We at the very minimum will require votes from all the senators on each of the witnesses and about each of these sets of documents. And I don't think my colleagues, Democrat or Republican, are going to want to vote to withhold evidence in such an important trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And, of course, Democrats don't have the votes to get the witnesses that they want to hear from including John Bolton or the president's acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney. They would need four Republicans to cross the aisle. That's a very steep hill to climb in the next couple of weeks. And of course, we'll be watching to see if there's any agreement that can be reached between McConnell and Schumer over the holidays -- Ryan.

NOBLES: All right, Lauren Fox, live on Capitol Hill, with the latest on this new development.

And let's discuss this now with former state and federal prosecutor Elie Honig.

Elie, thank you so much for being here especially on Christmas Eve. Let's talk about this fight for McGahn's testimony and how this all plays out. What's the argument the Democrats should be making?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the Democrats have a legal right to get -- I believe to get Don McGahn's testimony. And theoretically, yes, they can go and consider a new article of impeachment or impeach again. But I also think we need to operate in the real world here. That ship has sailed. There is no way that is going to fly politically better. There's no way that's going to fly with the American public.

There's no way Speaker Pelosi will allow them to go back and add a new article of impeachment. The fact of the matter is here the Democrats have just waited too long. Jerry Nadler's committee waited too long to bring this lawsuit and we're too far down the line now.

NOBLES: Is there any type of an argument here for double jeopardy? I mean, potentially impeaching the president twice? Haven't they already done this or does that not apply in this setting?

HONIG: It's the latter, Ryan. There is no double jeopardy in impeachment. Double jeopardy is a concept in criminal law that basically says you can't charge the same person with the same crime twice. But again as a technical legal matter here, you can impeach. The House can impeach a president or another official over and over or on repeated or different bases, sort of one at a time. But politically, you have to be realistic here that that's just not going to fly.

NOBLES: Yes. So even if the courts do rule that McGahn must testify, I mean, this could be months before we get a final ruling. Theoretically, if this timeline at all holds, the Senate will have long weighed in and had their impeachment trial, will it even matter at that point once we finally get a decision?

HONIG: Yes, I think that's a good question. And look, it's important that we understand the timeline here. The Mueller report came out in April. It took four months for Jerry Nadler to get this into court in August. We then got a decision from the district court, which is the lowest level federal trial court, in November. And here we are, we're now in the Court of Appeals which is the middle level federal court.

So I believe we will have a decision from the Court of Appeals maybe January, early February. Then whoever loses that can try to get up to the Supreme Court. If the Supreme Court takes it, we're looking at spring or summer. Even if they don't we're looking into march. And by then, I think by all realistic calculations, the Senate trial that we're talking about with Ukraine and the two articles of obstruction will be over so the timing here is just a big problem for the Democrats.

[09:05:07]

NOBLES: I mean, is there any possibility that we'll ever hear from Don McGahn? I mean, what could be the setting after this all plays out?

HONIG: We could still hear from Don McGahn. It just would have to be separate from the current Ukraine and obstruction of Congress impeachment. I mean, Congress still has a right to say we'd like to investigate. We want to follow up on Mueller. And if they win in court and I do think by the way the Democrats ultimately will prevail. They won in the district court.

The judge issued a very strong ruling. I think they are going to win. I think the courts are going to say you get to hear from McGahn. It just may be separate and apart from any impeachment process.

NOBLES: Imagine that. A Don McGahn public testimony and hearing sometime in the middle of the summer around the time of the presidential conventions. It could be explosive.

Elie Honig, thank you for your expertise. We appreciate it.

HONIG: Thanks, Ryan.

NOBLES: Meanwhile, President Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani just gave a bizarre and rambling interview to "New York" magazine. In it he talks about conspiracy theories and his trips to Ukraine. He also says he'd like to cross-examine some of the impeachment inquiry witnesses so he can attack their credibility.

Listen to what Giuliani said. He said, quote, "The guy that overheard the telephone call, anybody check if that guy has an ear piece? Maybe he didn't have it in. How old is he? How do we know he isn't a paranoid schizophrenic? How do we know he isn't an alcoholic?"

Joining me now is CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash.

Dana, someone who talks to Rudy Giuliani on a pretty regular basis. Giuliani seems to be asking questions that we already know the answers to. I mean, is that part of what his strategy here? Is that what he's going for?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Kind of. Look, I think that --

(LAUGHTER)

BASH: Trying to figure how we even get into this, Ryan.

NOBLES: Yes.

BASH: I mean, that particular quote you just put up there, there's Giuliani. That is classic Giuliani 2019. Almost 2020 Giuliani in that he kind of does thinking out loud. Theories out loud, conspiracy theories even out loud. And that's kind of how he communicates, particularly with reporters.

This was an interview that he had over a couple of Bloody Mary's after he got off a trans-Atlantic flight coming back from his trip to Ukraine. But broadly, this is exhibit A, B, C and D of Giuliani not letting this go. You know, we have heard it, you know, in conversations we've had here at CNN with him. He's talking to many other reporters. This is just done in New Yorker magazine style with a little bit of -- well, with a lot of sass, I'll tell you that.

NOBLES: Yes. Well, speaking of sass, let's unpack what he said about billionaire George Soros, obviously, a big liberal backer who Giuliani is clearly not a fan of. He says, quote, "Don't tell me I'm anti- Semitic if I oppose him. Soros is hardly a Jew. I'm more of a Jew than Soros is. He doesn't belong to a synagogue. He doesn't support Israel. He's an enemy of Israel."

Dana, Giuliani doesn't seem to be too concerned about how he'll be remembered when asked about his legacy. He actually said F it. Is this shocking you and surprise you? This is a guy of course who was the mayor in the wake of the 9/11 tragedy who had a lot of respect across the country. That doesn't seem to matter to him as much anymore.

BASH: Well. that's what he says. If he didn't care about his legacy, he wouldn't be trying to vindicate himself. He says he's vindicating his client, which is true, he's trying to do that, but he's also trying to vindicate himself because he is just the tip of the spear here. He is leading this whole thing, you know, and go back to how it started. It was conversations that he had with the president.

Kind of feeding him these conspiracy theories and feeding him information that he was also feeding to, you know, John Solomon who was a columnist for the Hill back there, about Hunter Biden and so forth. So that is a part of it.

On the George Soros thing, what I found interesting was that -- what he said about him not being, you know, that Giuliani is more of a Jew that he is. It is was in response to Olivia, the reporter, her question to him, a follow up question when he mentioned Soros. And, you know, alleging that Soros is connected with the former ambassador and that he really funded Ukraine's, you know, involvement in 2016 which is baseless.

NOBLES: Right.

BASH: OK?

NOBLES: Right.

BASH: He claims he evidence. He's not giving us the evidence. But her follow-up was if you attack Soros are you worried it's going to be perceived as anti-Semitic. That's when he said, give me a break. I'm more Jewish than he is. But it is an issue because when it is not as if mentioning George Soros is not explicitly, blatantly anti-Semitic, intended as anti-Semitic in many parts of conservative media, in many parts of, you know, of sort of the right wing discussion.

[09:10:02]

He was trying to separate himself from that. But it's pretty hard to do that considering that the discussion and the attacks on George Soros kind of go back to tropes that we have seen and heard for hundreds, if not more than hundreds of years about Jews kind of running the world.

NOBLES: Yes. So, Dana Bash, thank you so much for that.

BASH: Thanks, Ryan.

NOBLES: At the very least this interview shows us Rudy Giuliani not going anywhere any time soon, at least. All right, Aleta.

Meanwhile, President Trump spending Christmas Eve at Mar-a-Lago where this hour, he's hosting a video teleconference call with members of the military. CNN national correspondent Kristen Holmes live in West Palm Beach.

Kristen, you know, normally this teleconference call between the president, members of the military, not very newsy. Very just kind of a normal part of the presidential activity during the Christmas holiday. But sometimes with President Trump, that can veer in a direction we're not expecting. What are you expecting today

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Ryan. Yes, that's absolutely right. You know, in the past here we have seen President Trump really make these calls political. He starts to slam judges. He has before bashed migrants who are heading to the southern border, essentially going off script from this holiday message and really talking to whatever is on his mind.

And, Ryan, this holiday season, it is very clear that impeachment is what is on President Trump's mind. We haven't seen much of him, but we have heard quite a bit, especially on Twitter. Even this morning, bashing Democrats, hitting Nancy Pelosi, the impeachment process. So that's what we're going to be watching very closely here to see if he really goes down this political rabbit hole while he is speaking to these men and women in uniform, serving their country away from their families this holiday.

We also know he started that message right now. He's currently reading from his prepared remarks. However, he has said he's going to answer questions, and that, of course, in the past is where we've seen him veer a little off script, Ryan.

HONIG: OK. President Trump right now speaking with members of the military. Kristen Holmes monitoring us for that. If something happens, Chris, we'll get back to you. Thank you so much.

And still to come, could the House bring more articles of impeachment against President Trump? I'll speak to a member of the house Oversight Committee, next.

Plus, very disturbing video out of California. A man wrongly believed to be a carjacker was violently removed from his own car by deputies and died after the ensuing struggle. Now his family wants answers.

And in many states, dangerous, illegal vaping products are making their way into consumers' hands and lungs. Our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta reports, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:00]

RYAN NOBLES, ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: As both chambers of Congress remain in a standoff over the framework for a Senate impeachment trial, a new court filing suggests that house Democrats could be pursuing additional articles of impeachment against President Trump. With me now to talk about this, Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton; she's a Democrat and a member of the Oversight Committee. Congresswoman, is the idea of floating additional articles of impeachment just a legal maneuver or is this something that's seriously being considered?

REP. ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D-WA): Well, it had to be floated or it had to come forward when house counsel went into court to get the testimony of Don McGahn. And the Republicans said, well, the impeachment is all over, so we don't need any more testimony.

At that time, house counsel said this is an ongoing matter. We're continuing to take testimony. Remember, we're dealing with a president who has never said he did anything wrong. In fact, he said everything was perfect. And yet, new evidence continues to come forward. Are we supposed to ignore it? For example, we learned just last week -- at the end of last week that the hold was put on -- 90 minutes after the Zelensky trial, there was a hold put on money going -- money going to the Ukraine.

We didn't even have that information. So house counsel themselves raised the notion that there could be more impeachment, and indeed it looks like the president could indeed -- since he thinks he has done nothing wrong, continue to commit impeachable offenses.

NOBLES: Right, so before we get to perhaps additional articles of impeachment, we still have the existing ones that your body recently passed. And Speaker Pelosi at this point saying she's not going to hand those over to the Senate until she knows the Senate game plan. At what point does holding out for Speaker Pelosi become too much of a risk? How long should she stand her ground?

NORTON: She's really not holding out. Let me tell you why she is not moving yet. We've got to assign our own folks to go and argue the case. Argue the case from the point of view of the House of Representatives. She's made no indication that she's not going to send the articles over. Remember, Congress is gone for two weeks. There's no urgency.

Where do we send them to? An empty Senate chamber? I would predict that by the beginning of the year, this will be ironed out. The house does not want to be engrossed in impeachment this year. We passed 400 bills, 70 of them, the Senate has even looked at 70 of them and they weren't even the most important one.

Remember, we got the house back because of health care. We've got prescription drug prices over there, so Nancy Pelosi has no reason to want to drag this out.

[09:20:00]

And as soon as we know what Schumer's ongoing negotiations with McConnell will yield, they've got to decide how long the impeachment goes, whether there will be witnesses and the like. Then she will know who to appoint to go over to the Senate to argue the case for the House of Representatives. That's all that is. There's no delay whatsoever because there's nothing happening in the house and the Senate for two weeks because of Christmas.

NOBLES: So, a big part of this negotiation on behalf of Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi is about witnesses, and one of the potential witnesses could be John Bolton; a former National Security adviser. A former aide to Ambassador Bolton was on CNN "LAST HOUR", and I want you to listen to what he said about his former boss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK GROOMBRIDGE, FORMER SENIOR POLICY ADVISER TO JOHN BOLTON: He flat out and bluntly said, quote, "I actually have a lot to say on the subject." That, by definition, implies that he has information privy to the Ukrainian investigation, and the impeachment process more broadly. He basically implied, I want to discuss what I have to say, but I can't do it at this point.

That obviously begs the question of, if not now, then when? We are at a crucial -- you know, a crucial point in American history, you would think that Ambassador Bolton would want the Senate to have all of the information so that he -- so that they can make a fully informed and productive decision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: So, it seems like John Bolton is somebody that knows an awful lot about perhaps the missing gaps in this conversation about Ukraine. But are you concerned at all, congresswoman, that a fight over allowing him to testify could drag this process out even more. So, let's say they come to some sort of a negotiated settlement where they say, yes, we can bring these witnesses in. The Trump administration could then fight this out in court, and that could make this process go even longer. How important is it for John Bolton's testimony to be a part of this process?

NORTON: It's not critical, but he himself has said it's important. If it's so important, he ought to say, I want to come forward and speak. He's not going to say that, everybody thinks it's because he's tantalizing the public about a book he's writing. As it turns -- as it turns out, our case was so overwhelming that we really don't need him.

But what he has said would make it his patriotic duty to come forward and say this is what I know. He's not going to do that. And I predict that we're not going to delay this matter waiting for him to go to court or waiting to go to court to find out whether he should come.

We have so much evidence, it just isn't necessary. It's important, but not necessary, if you can understand that.

NOBLES: OK, yes, I do. Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, thank you so much for being here, Merry Christmas, we appreciate you being here on a holiday.

NORTON: My pleasure.

NOBLES: All right, thank you. Vaping, THC is legal in places like California, but that's not stopping a black market from thriving, and it's becoming harder for consumers to tell what is safe. And we are moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Stocks should start the holiday session flat. Historically, stocks climb during the last five days of trading of the year or will it be a short -- it will be a shortened trading day.

The markets do close early today and will stay closed tomorrow for Christmas. All three major indices hit record highs on Monday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:25:00]

NOBLES: The CDC says the number of people getting sick and dying from e-cigarettes is starting to slow down. But with more than 50 people dead and 2,500 others sick, the agency is still working to pinpoint the exact cause of the vaping related illnesses. And as Dr. Sanjay Gupta found out, most signs point to the black market.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): So, this is chronic pain release then, that's cute.

MARK HOASHI, FOUNDER, DOJA: Right, this is a legal and licensed dispensary in California. You know, this is one of the nicer ones. It's important to keep in mind that there are some illicit shops that looks just like this.

GUPTA (voice-over): It can be really hard to tell. So, we sent in undercover camera to see for ourselves. According to the California Bureau of Cannabis Control, this is an illegal vaping store. The thing is, it looks just like a legal one.

Within minutes, we were able to purchase these illicit THC cartridges for $30 to $55 apiece. We paid cash and there was no sales tax. And this store is also in California where THC is legal.

(on camera): It feels like we're at the -- you know, the wild west in terms of actually figuring this out.

HOASHI: It is the wild west. I think there needs to be more enforcement of the illicit shops and an easier way for consumers to identify which shops are operating legally. So, this is the Doja app --

GUPTA: That's exactly why Mark Hoashi created Doja. Think of it as the Yelp for cannabis.

HOASHI: On the Doja app, I do see the people getting headaches and nausea.

GUPTA: When you've heard people were having symptoms and then subsequently tested, what have you found?

HOASHI: I found cartridges that test positive for over 15 different pesticides, and even heavy metals including lead and mercury.

GUPTA: Hoashi says a lot of consumers have no idea the products they're buying are fake.

HOASHI: The fake brands are easily identifiable because there's no testing, there's no government warning, and they have no child resistant mechanism.

GUPTA: Those are big red flags.

HOASHI: Now, this one is interesting because this is a really well done counterfeit.