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Trump Rails Against Impeachment; Standoff Over Senate Trial Likely To Last Weeks; Interview with Rep. Ami Bera, D-CA. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired December 24, 2019 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

RYAN NOBLES, CNN NEWSROOM: Good morning and thank you for joining us for a special edition of CNN Newsroom, I'm Ryan Nobles.

Breaking news this morning, the president sounding off on impeachment on Christmas Eve, slamming Democrats and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, this is as Democrats and Republicans face off over rules each side wants for the Senate trial.

Meanwhile, counsel for House Democrats say that testimony from former White House lawyer Don McGhan could eventually lead to more articles of impeachment. We have a lot going on this morning.

Let's begin with CNN National Correspondent Kristen Holmes. She's live in West Palm Beach. And, Kristen, what are we hearing from the president this morning?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Ryan. Well, we are hearing actually quite a bit. Now, I do know that President Trump did stay on message with the troops up until that Q&A session there. And that is pretty par for the course when it comes to President Trump.

Now, he was asked about impeachment, and that is when he really went off. He lit into Democrats. He said that Nancy Pelosi not only hated all Republicans but that he hated anyone who voted for President Trump. He said no one had ever been treated as unfairly as he had been treated.

And when he was asked about the impasse between Democrats and Republicans on what exactly his impeachment trial would look like, he said it all rests in the hands of Mitch McConnell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Ultimately, that decision is going to be made by Mitch McConnell. And he will make it -- he has the right to do whatever he wants. He's the head of the Senate. People remember they treated us very unfairly. They didn't give us due process. They didn't give us a lawyer. They didn't give us anything. Now, they come to the Senate and they want everything. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And, of course, these are arguments we have heard from him before.

And I do want to note one other thing he said that wasn't about impeachment. It was about that threat from North Korea of a Christmas gift to the United States if the United States did not make certain concessions in those ongoing talks to North Korea. He said that any sort of Christmas gift is something he would handle.

He also noted that it could be a positive gift that maybe Kim Jong-un would give him a beautiful vase instead of a missile test. Ryan?

NOBLES: Kristen Holmes, it's seems to be a big difference between a missile and a vase, but we'll have to see what it ends up being. All right, we appreciate that report.

Let's dive into this now with our panel. I'm joined now by Ron Brownstein, Senior Editor at The Atlantic, A.B. Stoddard, Associate Editor and Columnist at RealClearPolitcs, and Robert Ray, the formal Whitewater Independent Counsel.

A.B., let's start with you. It's Christmas Eve. Obviously, as we just saw here, impeachment on the president's mind, what do you make of what he had to say there?

A.B. STODDARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR AND COLUMNIST, REALCLEARPOLITICS: Well, I think we know that Republicans are wishing this trial away, they like to get it going and get it concluded as soon as possible, because they know the reaction the president like to have throughout the proceedings. This inter-regnum, this waiting period is going to be very difficult because the president likes to stand offense, he doesn't like to sit in stew. He lashes away.

And so this period until they return on Friday, January 3, and then really get back to business on Monday, January 6, Tuesday, the 7th. It's going to feel very long for Republicans as the president likes to keep talking about this and complaining.

So I think it's part of Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker's strategy, is sort of let them tongue twist in the wind. I think, eventually, she will be passing those articles along. But it is a tough period for President Trump when he hears Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell say things like, I'm not so anxious to have this trial anyway, which he said on Fox.

The president wants this over with yesterday. I think it's going to be a long time until January 6.

NOBLES: So, Ron, it seems as though the president is going to place his fate in Mitch McConnell's hands. Do you think that he's confident that McConnell will be able to take care of him in the Senate, or at some point, do you see the White House putting a bit more pressure on the Senate majority leader to do this the way the president wants it to be done? RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think he's confident in McConnell standing with him. In fact, you know, what we have seen in both chambers really is just an extraordinary elevation kind of partisan loyalty over institutional responsibilities.

To me, one of the most striking things, really, about the entire period since the Democrats have taken over the House, but certainly the impeachment inquiry, has been the Republican willingness in Congress to defend Trump's systematic defiance of congressional demands for information by the testimony or documents.

And it was kind of striking to hear the president talk about how unfairly he was treated. We are talking about a president who systemically refused to provide information to an extent that we have never seen before in an impeachment inquiry.

[10:05:05]

So I think he's confident that McConnell has his back. I think he's confident that most Republicans are going to stand him even though they are setting a precedent that could certainly come back to haunt them at the next Democratic president.

The question is whether there are four Republican senators, who, for whatever reasons, either legacy reasons, like Lamar Alexander or Pat Roberts, or election reasons, like Susan Collins and Cory Gardner, Mitt Romney on the legacy side, decide that they are not okay with the kind of minimalist trial that the president would like to see.

NOBLES: All right. So, Robert, let's talk more about that and what potential witnesses that we could hear from. Democrats have repeatedly called for White House Counsel Don McGahn to come forward. They're actually fighting this out in court. They've even suggested that McGahn's testimony could lead to additional articles of impeachment. Do you see the courts ruling in the Democrats' favor here?

ROBERT RAY, FORMER WHITEWATER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: Look, we don't know what the court is going to do. But what I do know is that the matter is scheduled for oral argument on January 3rd. And thereafter, there will be presumably a written decision, which is not likely to come any time real soon. And even if it does, whichever side does not prevail is likely to file a petition for review in the Supreme Court.

And we are far enough into the Supreme Court's that it's unlikely to imagine that that case, even if granted, would be reviewable with oral argument and the decision before the end of June. So that is going to kick well into the latter part of the year into the election cycle. So I don't see anything coming from that any time soon.

And then as far as the schedule, my view is I will presume good faith on the part of Speaker Pelosi until there is substantial evidence to the contrary. I expect that the articles will be delivered on January 6 or 7. And if they are not, I imagine that Senator McConnell likely may have to, with the vote of the majority, consider changing the rules to proceed with the Senate's trial as the country has expected during the month of January and to get this matter completed before the 2020 election cycle starts in earnest with the Iowa caucuses in the first week of February. It's in the country's interest that this be resolved during the month of January.

NOBLES: So you're suggesting that even if the articles of impeachment don't come over and McConnell kind of go without them and change the rules in the Senate and go forward with the trial anyway?

RAY: I do think it would require a change in the rules, as I understand the rules. But on the other hand, look, my view is the House is done, the delivery of the articles is a ministerial act.

Now, if under the Senate rules, something more is required, and there's a pretty substantial argument that there is and that would be required, obviously, the physical articles then, if it requires a change in the rules to do this and that's what's necessary in the country's best interest to move forward in January, then I think that's what's likely to be entertained, yes.

NOBLES: All right. A.B., let's switch gears now and talk about what President Trump had to about North Korea. He kind of pushed off the fact that North Korea is promising some sort of a Christmas surprise, which everyone assumes is some sort of proliferation of their weapons program. How should we interpret the president's response to what appears to be somewhat of a veiled threat from Kim Jong-un?

STODDARD: Well, the president, as you know, has gone from I alone can solve this, we'll take care of it, after he initially told us China was going to take care of it and little rocket man and all the threats of the early months of this administration to really embracing Chairman Kim as his good friend and placing a lot of faith in Chairman Kim to not embarrass President Trump with this endless summit, diplomacy that has not brought us to the goal, which was irreversible, certifiable denuclearization. And so the goal is on the backburner, he's continuing to develop his arsenals and now he's threatening another provocation.

It was no accident that the former NSA, John Bolton, who's in the impeachment crosshairs, made a point of talking to Axios in the last few days to blast the president on North Korea. This is a real kind of simmering crisis to which the administration has not had a response. So he is hoping it will be a vase or another beautiful letter and not an actual missile test that he has to try to explain away or buy time for.

NOBLES: Ron -- and finally --

BROWNSTEIN: Can I just add one real quick?

NOBLES: Yes, sure.

BROWNSTEIN: I mean, the fact that John Bolton spoke out about North Korea really underscores kind of the absurdity of him not speaking out about what he knows about Ukraine. They were talking about something momentous, the potential -- the impeachment of the president, the potential removal of a president. We have his own aids testifying that he called the kind of maneuvers underway to pressure Ukraine a drug deal. He instructed his closest advisers on the region to talk to the White House Counsel.

[10:10:00]

He presumably has information that will be relevant to the Senate consideration of this. And yet while he feels comfortable talking about North Korea, you know, he has not come forward on this.

And there are obviously many career diplomats who did despite the White House's desire for them not to. And it just kind of begs the question, what is the reason for his silence at this point and how can he justify it?

NOBLES: And, of course, John Bolton would be among the top of the list that Democrats would like to hear from, Robert. And what's interesting is that -- this is what Senate Judiciary Chair Lindsey Graham tweeted yesterday. He said, this case should mirror the process used in the Clinton impeachment and should come to an end in weeks, not months, which is seems to fly in the face of the White House, the reporting that we have that the White House would like to see this done quickly, Mitch McConnell says he would like to see it done quickly.

But if you remember the trial, there were witnesses, Robert. And, of course, President Clinton himself sat for a deposition. Is this Lindsey Graham saying that President Trump should have to sit for a sworn deposition like President Clinton did?

RAY: I don't think so. And, of course, in the Senate proceedings during the Clinton impeachment, there were three witnesses. President Clinton was not among them. The three witnesses were Sidney Blumenthal, Vernon Jordan and Monica Lewinsky. And they were not before the Senate chamber, it was done offsite by deposition. I don't think so.

Look, I think that there is a serious constitutional and practical problem with impeachment articles that don't charge crimes. I expect that there will be some appropriate moment in the Senate and a motion to dismiss those articles, which may well be granted. And I think that's going to be in line with what I expect to be a determination by a majority by the Senate, possibly with Democrat that there will be no witnesses. And if there are no witnesses, it seems to me that the Senate should expeditiously proceed forward with consideration of a motion to dismiss and resolve this.

And I think this happens obviously at a moment with regard to any president where it's important for the country and the president to keep the eye on the ball. Matters with regard to North Korea are important to be considered in the context in which this impeachment comes up. And I am certain that the president is keeping a close and careful eye on that situation even as impeachment proceedings go forward in the United States Senate hopefully and to be resolved in January.

NOBLES: All right. We have to leave it there. I am sorry, we got to go, Ron. I'm sorry. Ron Brownstein, A.B. Stoddard, Robert Ray. Yes, Ron, there is an awful a lot to talk about despite the fact that it is Christmas Eve, but unfortunately, we have to go. Thank you all for being here and a very Happy Holiday.

Still to come, a top lawyer in the House raises the prospect of impeaching President Trump again if new evidence emerges. We'll get a reaction from a Democratic member of Congress.

Plus, the battle of the bees, former Vice President Joe Biden and Mayor Pete Buttigieg making a push for moderate voters in Iowa. CNN hears from those voters next.

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NOBLES: We are just 41 days from the all important Iowa caucuses, and former Vice President Joe Biden and South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg are going after some of the same voters, moderate Democrats.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny spent time with both of men to see how their messages resonating with voters.

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JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: When Pete Buttigieg came to town, Cheri Scheib was sitting right there in the front row listening intently and capturing the moment. As he left, she gave him a high-five.

CHERI SCHEIB, IOWA DEMOCRAT: I want to high-five you again (INAUDIBLE). Thank you, Pete.

ZELENY: And smiled with satisfaction.

So do you walk away from here committed or do you want to go see some of the others, first?

SCHEIB: Well, Joe Biden is also in town tonight, and I am going to go see what he has to say.

ZELENY: Two hours later, Scheib and her sister, Nancy, were there for an up close look at Joe Biden. She admires and values Biden's experience.

SCHEIB: He's been there, so I feel good about that. I'm really happy about that. I like --

ZELENY: But you love Mayor Pete.

SCHEIB: I love Mayor Pete. What does a guy do? I don't know. I'm really kind of torn a little bit. I got to think about it and sleep on it. I don't know yet.

ZELENY: Just before Christmas, Democrats are still shopping for presidential hopefuls in Iowa. Biden and Buttigieg going after the same voters, literally, which brought both of them Sunday to the town of Perry, about 45 minutes outside Des Moines.

For Democrats searching for a moderate candidate, the choice is stark, a 37-year-old mayor of South Bend, Indiana delivering an optimistic message.

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D-SOUTH BEND, IN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Even in this dark and strange time, I have never been more filled with hope.

ZELENY: For a former vice president twice his age, who offers a dark warning about consequences of President Trump winning a second term.

JOE BIDEN (D), FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But if we give him another four years, I believe he will permanently alter the character of the country at least for several generations.

ZELENY: Pat McPherson is torn, applauding Buttigieg's intellect --

PAT MCPHERSON, IOWA DEMOCRAT: So I think he might be the one.

ZELENY: -- But later impressed by Biden's grasp on the world.

So just a couple of hours ago, you told me that you're going to sign on the dotted line for Buttigieg. Now, you want to think about it a little longer.

MCPHERSON: I'm probably going to go with Mayor Pete, but I just -- there is just so much to be said for being to hit the ground running on day one and it's going to be a huge task.

ZELENY: While he's trailing Buttigieg in recent polls, Biden is showing that skills from a lifetime in politics also come in handy to people of all ages.

BIDEN: That's it. Got it, okay. That may be the most intelligent thing you hear all night.

ZELENY: Pat Mundy liked the charisma of Buttigieg and worry that Biden may be too old.

[10:20:03]

But after seeing him up close in this moment, she said she changed her mind.

PAT MUNDY, IOWA DEMOCRAT: And I made that comment, he might be a little old before but I'm a little old too and I'm in pretty good shape. And he looks like he's in dynamic shape.

ZELENY: So you have quite a decision facing you know?

MUNDY: I have a terrific decision facing me and it won't be made lightly.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ZELENY: For many voters looking for a moderate candidate, they are legitimately torn between Pete Buttigieg's excitement and Biden's experience. The central question, electability, they have six weeks to weigh that.

Jeff Zeleny, CNN, Perry, Iowa.

NOBLES: All right, terrific report. Thank you so much, Jeff.

Still ahead, could President Trump be impeached again? A top council in the House says the president could face more impeachment articles. We'll get reaction from a Democratic congressman, next.

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[10:25:00]

NOBLES: Democrats and Republicans still locked in a standoff over what will happen in the impeachment trial. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer is warning that Democrats will stand firm on their demands for more witnesses and documents.

With me now, Congressman Ami Bera, he is a Democrat and a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Congressman, thank you so much for being here.

And I want to ask you first about this is court filing from the House Judiciary Committee seeking force testimony from former White House Counsel Don McGahn. This is a legal battle that's been going on for some time. But they indicate in this court filing that there is the possibility that more articles of impeachment could be delivered pending what McGahn could say in his testimony. Do you think that's a possibility or is this just a legal maneuver on behalf of your counsel?

REP. AMI BERA (D-CA): Well, Ryan, thanks for having me on.

I do think it's a possibility. If you think about the process that's gotten us to where we are right now, it really focused on two articles, which was the abuse power around Ukraine and the obstruction of Congress. Now, there was a third article that was debated in the Judiciary Committee whether you have to bring obstruction of justice charges that were tied to the Mueller report. That one is still hanging out there and that really is what the McGahn case is all about. It is about did the president obstruct justice around the Mueller investigation.

NOBLES: So let's talk now about where the current articles of impeachment stand. Speaker Pelosi has decided not to hand those articles over to the Senate until she knows what their game plan is. From your perspective, what exactly do you think the Senate should do before Speaker Pelosi hands them over and then at what point does holding out become too big of a risk for House Democrats?

BERA: Well, I think it's incredibly important for the president to get a fair trial. Now, remember filing the articles of impeachment are really just bringing the charges. Now, those charges go to a trial and that's a guilty or not guilty verdict. You'd want witnesses who can either exonerate the president or corroborate the charges that are in place.

And I think Minority Leader Schumer is doing the right thing trying to get those parameters set. And I think Speaker Pelosi, at the right time, will send those articles over.

NOBLES: All right. You are a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, so it is timely that we have you on this morning because there's quite a bit of news regarding North Korea that President Trump was speaking about it this morning and he was asked about this reported Christmas surprise that Kim Jong-un has said he may deliver. This is what the president said last hour. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Oh, that's okay. We'll find out what the surprise is and we'll deal with it very successfully. We'll see what happens. Everybody got surprises for me but let's see what happens. I handle them (ph) as they come along.

Maybe it's a present where he sends me a beautiful vase as opposed to a missile test, all right? I may get a new vase. I may get a nice present for him. You don't know. You never know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: So, Congressman, you are deeply involved in these issues. Obviously, there are very few people in the national security community who believe that this will be a friendly gift that Kim Jong- un is promising to President Trump.

What is your response to how President Trump is handling this back and forth?

BERA: Yes. I think he's got to take it a little bit more seriously. It's highly unlikely that it will be a box of chocolates. It's unfortunately likely that it could be a long-range missile test that could threaten the U.S. homeland. That would be a very serious front if Kim Jong-un goes in that direction. It could be a satellite launch. That, again, would be a very serious step.

So I think we've got to be very diligent here. We've got to think of what our options are, should he take that step.

NOBLES: You Know, the president in the past had a tough line with Kim Jong-un, then it was kind of very different diplomatic, obviously had the summit with him. What direction do you think the White House should take at this point? Should they, again, put that maximum pressure campaign on or should President Trump attempt to offer up some sort of an olive branch in 2020 and come to some sort of a resolution?

BERA: The president has already offered up things like reducing our joint exercises with the Korean military and the preparedness. He gave that up and we didn't really get anything in return. I'd actually probably go the opposite direction if Kim Jong-un does take provocative measures.

[10:30:01]

I think we got to go back and do some joint training with the South Koreans and again say, look, if you're going in this direction, it's the wrong direction.