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Church Shooting in Texas; Biden vs. Buttigieg; Bernie Sanders Releases Health Status Update; Hanukkah Attack. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 30, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:01]

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JOSEF GLUCK, ATTACK SURVIVOR: A 5-, 6-, 7-year-old boy hiding beneath a pile of coats on the floor.

And I saw that, and I said -- I told the old guy: "Let's go. Come out. Come out. The guy is still here."

He said, "But I'm "-- he was holding his head. There was blood pouring down from his head.

He said: "But I'm bleeding."

"So what? Come out. He's still here. Let's go."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN NOBLES, CNN HOST: The governor of New York condemning the incident as an act of domestic terrorism.

The rabbi of Pittsburgh's Tree of Life Synagogue, which was the site of a mass shooting just over a year ago, says that Saturday's stabbing is renewing fears in the hearts of his loved ones and congregants.

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RABBI JEFFREY MYERS, TREE OF LIFE SYNAGOGUE: For me, it was an, oh, no, not again, sort of moment, combined with the flurry of anti- Semitic violence that you have heard has been taking place in New York over the past three weeks.

It made me sort of wonder, I don't recall them selling licenses to have open hunting season on Jews, but it sure can make Jews feel that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: CNN's Brynn Gingras is on the scene in Monsey, New York.

Brynn, in addition to filing those hate crimes charges, officials offered details on some of these handwritten journals found in the suspect's home. What can you tell us about that?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

It's just a bit of the evidence, Ryan, that investigators that say they found not only in his home, but also in this suspect Grafton Thomas' the car.

Now, as we speak, Thomas 37 years old, is in federal court on those hate crime charges. But let me give you a little bit more details about that evidence they say they uncovered. Those journals, there were writings on them, had Nazi symbols. There were writings about Adolf Hitler, according to investigators.

There were also Internet searches that they say they found in his home as recent as the 27th -- or 28th, rather, which was the night before this attack took place. Some of those searches were German Jewish temples near me, for example.

Now, if you talk to his family, who did give a news conference not long ago, they say that these are just all the ramblings of someone with a mental illness, there was no anti-Semitism behind this attack.

Investigators, other than what was in this complaint, haven't pointed to exactly what the motive was behind this attack or how this suspect, Grafton Thomas, came about this house on Saturday night here about 30 minutes from his own home.

So we're still trying to learn details about all of that, but certainly a lot of information coming out in that criminal complaint, including more details even about the attack. Investigators say that Thomas walked into the house, he had his face covered, and he pulled out a machete, and started attacking people, saying, "No one is leaving."

So, really disturbing details coming out in this federal complaint.

NOBLES: All right, Brynn Gingras live for us in Monsey, New York, Brynn, thank you for that report.

And this weekend's stabbing is the latest incident to occur during a surge in anti-Semitic violence in New York. Governor Andrew Cuomo saying that, in just the last three weeks, a total of 13 different attacks have happened.

Now, CNN has been able to confirm 11 of them.

Samantha Vinograd is joining me now. She is a CNN national security analyst.

Sam, in a statement, the Anti-Defamation League said -- quote -- "New York has a growing problem."

The New York incidents of course, follow the Tree of Life shooting, which experts say was the deadliest anti-Semitic attack in U.S. history. Can you point to a specific cause from all of this? Or is it too hard to quantify?

SAMANTHA VINOGRAD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think it's too hard to quantify, but the data could not be clearer.

It is clear that we have an anti-Semitism problem in this country. And it is clear that we are attacking the problem piecemeal. And that is what is so difficult for me to understand as a security analyst.

Anti-Semitism is not a new phenomenon. Ask any Jew about their family's history, and they can name far too many incidences of anti- Semitism, far too many instances where they were forced to ask a tough question, which is, should I downplay my faith because I'm worried about my security?

And we're seeing exactly that scenario unfold right now, as Jews of all ages are being forced to answer whether they should hide their yarmulkes, hide their Stars of David, or not really publicize how they're observing.

But while we can't identify a specific cause, we are not bringing the full resources of the U.S. government to bear to address this problem. We are seeing various actions at the state and local level, Governor Cuomo. Mayor de Blasio, for example, also said that he was instructing schools in the city to look at integrating more educational aspects into their curricula.

But we have not seen the U.S. government address the lessons of countering extremism in a really strategic way. And I do not understand why.

President Trump has the authority and the ability to call together a whole-of-government approach on this issue, and he has failed to do so, while concurrently, unfortunately, really propagating some anti- Semitic narratives.

[15:05:00]

NOBLES: I want to go back to what you said about Jewish people feeling that they may need to hide their faith.

Listen to what the Tree of Life rabbi told CNN this morning. It really struck me. And just take a listen.

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MYERS: There are those who have literally gone into hiding, as the Jews have done over the centuries.

QUESTION: And you say that you have had friends and others who feel like they should go into hiding recently?

MYERS: Yes, people who did not light their Hanukkah menorah because, particularly after this attack, they were afraid to show their Jewishness in the window.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: Sam, what does it say that in 2019 members of the Jewish faith feel that they cannot publicly display their faith openly? VINOGRAD: This, unfortunately, echoes things that Jews have asked themselves throughout history, whether it was in the 15th century in Spain, where Jews pretended to convert to Christianity to avoid persecution, during the Holocaust, when Jews tried to hide outward signs of their Judaism because they did not want to be persecuted, all the way forward to today, Ryan, where I was born in a country where I have freedom of religion.

And now Jews of all ages are either being advised or really thinking for themselves about whether to hide what they're doing. Our system is failing us if Jews have to ask that question in this country. There is no easy solution. But, at a minimum, it is clear that we need to do more.

This is not going to be solved by one person pillorying social media, or President Trump alone is not going to address this problem. But it is clear that we need to do more, and the federal government needs to step in and apply lessons from the past, so that Jews don't have to have armed security at synagogues anymore.

NOBLES: Yes. Well, to that point, just moments ago, Senator Chuck Schumer calling for a $250 million increase in federal grants to help nonprofits like houses of worship increase their security.

And, of course, we're not just talking about Jewish houses of faith. We saw similar a problem at a Christian church in Texas. Do you think that that would go to help this problem, to increase, to harden these places of worship?

I understand where Senator Schumer is going here. But I'd like to think that a place of worship is a place that you could go and not have to worry about this thing. Isn't there a broader, more systemic problem at play here?

VINOGRAD: There certainly is.

And religiously motivated violence, as you just mentioned, according to FBI statistics, is not just against Jews. It's against Muslims. And, unfortunately, as we saw this weekend, it's also against Christians.

But hardening these facilities is not going to address the problem. It is important that we protect people in their places of worship. We need defense against attacks, which is a law enforcement function. We need education about tolerance and religious freedoms.

And we need public-private partnerships to focus on deterrence, defense and fostering understanding. There is no silver bullet in this case, and I applaud efforts of the law enforcement community. But that alone is not going to do it.

NOBLES: Right.

It seems, at the very least, we need to stop ignoring it, which it does seem, appear to be happening.

VINOGRAD: Well, Ryan, it's interesting, because these incidences are very well-publicized.

NOBLES: Right.

VINOGRAD: And my biggest fear is that they become normalized. We are all sickened by them. But when we see them on our TV screens every day, this becomes more normal. We cannot let it get to that point.

NOBLES: Right. Right.

Sam Vinograd, thanks for your insight. We appreciate it.

VINOGRAD: Thank you.

NOBLES: And, in Texas, as we mentioned, another faith community rocked by violence this weekend.

Congregants at the West Freeway Church of Christ preparing for communion when a gunman stood up and opened fire. We do want to warn you, what you are about to see and here is disturbing.

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NOBLES: Last hour, I spoke with a woman who was sitting right in front of the shooter. She described the chaos that unfolded.

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ISABEL ARREOLA, SHOOTING SURVIVOR: We were getting ready to start communion. And this gentleman came in and sat the row behind us, and just seemed weird.

He got up one time, said something to Tony as he was passing the first tray of communion, and whispered something in his ear, and then sat back down. Then I noticed him get back up when we were getting ready to do the second part of our communion.

And that's when he pulled out his shotgun . And all I heard was one shot go off, and I hit the floor. And I then heard another shot from the same gentleman shooting.

All I could do was, you know, just try to cover my child, my husband. We were just at a panic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: Let's go now to CNN's Lucy Kafanov. She is in the town of White Settlement, Texas, the scene of yesterday's shooting.

So, Lucy, this entire incident lasted just six seconds, as members of the church's security team who were also parishioners returned fire, striking and killing the shooter.

And in just the last few minutes, we have created the identity of the gunman. What can you tell us about that?

[15:10:04]

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Ryan, a lot of information coming out in the past few minutes.

CNN can now confirm the identity of the gunman as Keith Thomas Kinnunen. His identity was confirmed by a federal law enforcement official, as well as his sister, Amy Kinnunen.

Now, she said Keith and another one of their siblings, a younger brother, had been living on the street for a -- quote -- "long time." She said the sibling took his life in 2009. And yesterday was that sibling's birthday. Was that related to the shooting? Unclear, but that's a piece of information she shared with us.

She also said she last spoke to Keith in November, and she does not believe that this shooting was political.

Now, this information does mirror a little bit what we have heard from the FBI. They described them as a transient individual who's had numerous run-ins with the law, a criminal history.

We also heard from the attorney general here in Texas, Ken Paxton. Take a listen to how he described Keith Thomas Kinnunen. At that time, he was not named.

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KEN PAXTON, TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL: Actually, he'd been here I think several times. And they always are -- I think -- my understanding, they were very open to helping people that are transient, that are homeless, or that just need help.

And so I think they welcome those people into their church and they welcomed this guy into their church. My understanding, he is more of a loner and probably going to be very difficult to determine exactly what his motivations were, other than maybe mental illness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAFANOV: So it appears he had gone to this church on at least one occasion, so perhaps he was familiar with this community.

Now, we are also learning the identities of the victims, two victims, Richard White, 67 years old from River Oaks, also Tony Wallace. You heard your previous guests refer to him, 64 years old from Fort Worth.

His daughter told CNN that he worked very hard as a nurse. She described him as a perfect man who loves to care for the community. He was apparently standing in the back of the church with a plate right before communion started, when the gunmen told him to drop the plate and then shot him, killing him.

Again, these identities now being revealed. This community, Ryan, still grieving, still demanding answers. Why did the shooting take place?

NOBLES: OK, Lucy Kafanov, live in White Settlement, Texas, Lucy, thanks so much.

And in just the last few hours, Senator Bernie Sanders releasing a new health update a few months after he had a heart attack. We're live on the campaign trail with those details.

Plus, Pete Buttigieg ramps up his attack on Joe Biden for voting in support of the Iraq War. Hear how the former vice president just responded.

And then later, civil rights icon and Congressman John Lewis diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. We will have details on the battle he faces ahead.

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[15:17:37]

NOBLES: Breaking news now.

The suspect in the Hanukkah stabbings in Monsey, New York, just appeared in federal court.

Grafton Thomas is facing federal hate crimes charges.

CNN's Kara Scannell was in the courtroom. She joins us now live from White Plains.

Kara, what exactly happened in the courtroom this afternoon?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, Ryan, we had Grafton Thomas, the subject, appear in the courthouse just behind me.

This was his first presentment after he was charged earlier today on those federal hate crime charges. So the judge here held him, detained him, saying he needs to stay here until his trial as this case plays out.

That was fairly expected. And Grafton Thomas walked into the courthouse today wearing an orange prison jumpsuit with his ankles shackled. He was represented by a federal defender. And prosecutors had asked for him to be detained. His attorneys didn't contest that.

Now, they also revealed that they would like some medical attention to him, saying that he is on certain medications. His federal defender had said he had -- quote -- "issues" with bipolar and schizophrenia -- Ryan.

NOBLES: All right, Kara Scannell, thank you for that update from the courtroom in White Plains. We appreciate it.

And still ahead, a stunning new report that links the closing of auto plants in some communities to a rise in opioid overdoses.

Plus, Joe Biden firing back after Pete Buttigieg criticized his record on the Iraq War. We will hear the back and forth next.

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[15:23:41]

NOBLES: Hard to believe it, five weeks to the Iowa caucuses, and a clean bill of health just in for Democratic candidate Bernie Sanders as he campaigns across the state today.

The Vermont senator's campaign releasing letters from three different doctors, who are all in agreement that Sanders is recovering well after his heart attack in October.

One doctor writing -- quote -- "Mr. Sanders is more than fit enough to pursue vigorous activities and an occupation that requires stamina and an ability to handle a great deal of stress."

Lucky for him, he's up for one of those jobs, president of the United States.

CNN's Maeve Reston rested in Iowa right now. She's been following Sanders around, joins me to talk more about this and some more.

So, Maeve, in one of those letters, the doctor went into pretty specific details about Sanders' weight, his blood pressure and stress tests and said they were all pretty much at normal levels.

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

And you could really see that this morning at Bernie Sanders' event. Ryan, as you note, he's been out on the campaign trail, doing lots of events. And that energy is high up there, as it always is.

He talked this morning for almost two hours taking questions from voters. He's going to have a big New Year's bash here in Iowa. But, also, I think that these letters from doctors will be really important for some voters to assuage concerns that they have.

[15:25:01]

I was at a Buttigieg edge event this weekend, for example, where one voter told me that, after Bernie's heart attack, that she essentially scratched him off her list.

So there are some voters who still have those concerns, Ryan, and will want to be looking into these details.

NOBLES: That's right.

And his campaign had promised us that that was -- the information was coming. Now it's there. It's up for the voters now to decide whether or not it's enough.

RESTON: Right.

NOBLES: So let's shift now and actually talk about some of the policies here.

Medicare for all, this is something that, obviously, Sanders has been talking about for a lot longer than just this presidential campaign, but a unique situation happening on the campaign as of late. He's been kind of pushed a little bit by folks from the health care industry that are worried that they may lose their jobs because of his Medicare for all plan.

So listen to some of these exchanges over the weekend in New Hampshire.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I work for a health insurance company. I have for my whole life. That's what I know. I'm 58 years old. Help me. You are going to take away my job. I believe in you. I think this is the way to go.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, we're not going to take away your job. Let me tell you what we're going to...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need a new job.

SANDERS: We're going to transition you, give you the job training and the opportunity, if your job is lost.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Under Medicare for all, what does our job look like? What are -- are we unemployed?

SANDERS: Will there be job loss? Yes, there will be.

But what I want to tell you is, we are putting into Medicare for all what we call a just transition program, which will help everybody in the industry for a five-year period maintain their income, get the job training that they need to get another job.

I think that's the fair and right thing to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: So, Maeve, for the record, this isn't new, right?

RESTON: Right.

NOBLES: Sanders had this baked into the Medicare for all plan. He's had a transition plan from the very beginning. He's conceded that there will be job losses in the health insurance industry.

But do you think that campaign is confidant that voters are understanding that piece of it and that it will just boil down to there's going to be job losses as a result of Medicare for all?

RESTON: Well, I think that, Ryan, what is new here is that you really are seeing voters putting both Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren through their paces on this issue. We have seen them getting these kinds of questions from people who are

worried about this kind of massive structural change to the health care system. And as you saw, Bernie Sanders there not pulling any punches, saying, yes, there are going to be job changes, but really trying to put an emphasis on these transition programs that he has as part of his plan, and trying to reassure people that they will have jobs on the other side of this.

Medicare for all, though, is a big reason why some voters are drifting toward Buttigieg and Biden. They just feel like it's too much too fast. I have heard that from a lot of voters here.

So it'll be interesting to see how that split comes down in the end.

NOBLES: So, right now, though, Mayor Pete Buttigieg isn't highlighting that difference. He's actually going after his fellow moderate in this race, and that's the former Vice President Joe Biden.

RESTON: Yes.

NOBLES: He hammered him over his vote to authorize the use of force in Iraq, Buttigieg saying -- quote -- "Years in Washington, it's not always the same thing as judgment."

Biden is now responding to this attack. What is he saying?

RESTON: So, Biden did respond.

It was surprising that Buttigieg did that this weekend. But it's in the context of this Biden vs. Buttigieg judgment vs. experience storyline that we're starting to see evolve here.

And Joe Biden today talking to Seacoastonline, the editorial board there, came back at Buttigieg, saying that he would put his foreign policy record up against anyone, and talking about the breadth and depth of his experience.

Let's take a listen to what he had to say.

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JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I put my foreign policy record against anybody in the country right now.

I'm the guy that led the fight to end the war in Bosnia. I'm the guy that led the fight to take down Slobodan Milosevic. I'm the guy who helped write and basically got passed the chemical weapons treaty.

And God love Pete. I respect the -- his service and his willingness to go.

I'm the guy that -- as was pointed out repeatedly, that thought we should not be going into Afghanistan.

So, the point is that I believe that my judgment on how to proceed in everywhere from Afghanistan to Libya and what to deal with -- how to deal with Syria, et cetera, will stand the test of time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RESTON: So, it's -- this argument that they are having on the campaign trail now obviously comes as Buttigieg is getting a lot of questions about his experience, whether he is too green to take on that role of president.

And you see Biden hitting back there, saying he respects Mayor Pete's military service, but that he is ready for the job on day one -- Ryan.

NOBLES: Yes, and it's interesting the position Buttigieg finds himself in, because arguing that experience not necessarily as important, but he's also reaching out to older voters, who probably value that experience.

RESTON: Exactly.

NOBLES: A dichotomy there, for sure.

RESTON: Yes.

NOBLES: All right, Maeve Reston, thank you so much for that report live from Iowa.

RESTON: Thank you.

NOBLES: Next, I will be joined live by a doctor who can tell us what's ahead for Congressman John Lewis.

[15:30:00]