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Sanders and Warren's Feud Escalates Ahead of Debate; Senator Booker Drops Out of 2020 Race for President; Six Democratic Candidates Face Off Tonight in CNN Iowa Debate; Nancy Pelosi Meets with Democratic Caucus on Impeachment; Four Key GOP Senators Signal They're Open to Trial Witnesses; Russians Hack Energy Company Tied to Trump Ukraine Scandal. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired January 14, 2020 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:17]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Is the wait finally over? Right now Speaker Pelosi meeting with Democratic lawmakers behind closed doors expected to speak about the path forward on the key question, sending the articles of impeachment to the Senate. This after nearly four weeks of a standoff. That means we could hear a major announcement from Pelosi this morning. And much more on a vote to approve impeach managers as well.

The next question, will the Senate hear from witnesses? And this is key. This is new and could be consequential. Several high-profile Republicans, and that number four is key here, because that's what you need to get to a majority, have said at a minimum they're open to witnesses.

HARLOW: Yes, so we'll see. All right. There is Speaker Pelosi. She is going to meet with members of her caucus. Let's hope there's some news out of it. Waiting for a lot of answers.

The White House doesn't even want it to get as far as potentially calling witnesses in the middle of this trial. The president's team wants a quick end to the impeachment, and some in the party backing him. Our sources tell us the White House wants to put immediate dismissal of this whole thing up for a vote on the Senate floor. So far Majority Leader Mitch McConnell doesn't have enough votes to make that happen.

Let's go straight to our congressional reporter Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill.

I heard you. Valiant effort to try to get Pelosi to answer some of those questions as she was heading in. But mum is the word still, right?

LAUREN FOX, CNN POLITICS CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. And I will tell you that members going into this meeting this morning have a lot of anticipation because everyone is waiting to see whether or not Pelosi will announce who those House managers will be during this caucus meeting. Again those managers are the individuals who will make the case on the Senate floor for why President Trump should be removed from office.

And those individuals, obviously, this is a very highly anticipated decision by Pelosi because they are going to have the major job of making the case for why President Trump needed to be impeached and why senators should vote to remove him. They could also have an influence on those on the fence, moderate Republicans, as to whether or not those individuals want to hear from witnesses -- Poppy and Jim.

SCIUTTO: Laura -- sorry, as we look at this, Lauren, help me do a vote count here because Lamar Alexander, the latest Republican senator to at least say he's open to witnesses down the line, and by my count, Mitt Romney, Susan Collins, Senator Murkowski also on the list. That gets you to four, does it not? Which would get you to the majority, simple majority to allow -- and again, that's if they actually decide to vote yes. But at least the possibility of witnesses is very real now.

FOX: Well, look, Jim, here's what we know for sure. We know that at some point there will be a vote on witnesses, and that Republicans and Democrats have equal weight to call up who those witnesses should be and force the full Senate to vote on them. Now whether or not Lamar Alexander who is going to retire would actually vote to have John Bolton be deposed or come to the well of the Senate, I think that's another question entirely.

In fact, what we've heard from Alexander is he might be open to witnesses. He might not be. He's going to wait and see. And I think the biggest question today is what is that organizing resolution look like in the Senate that will govern the rules of this Senate trial? We just don't know at this point but John Cornyn who is a top Republican in leadership told me yesterday that we could expect that resolution very soon to be unveiled.

So we'll have a little more details on how this will be structured. But I think we have to wait and see whether or not there are going to be enough moderate Republicans to vote for witnesses -- Jim and Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Lauren Fox, on the hill, thanks very much.

Joining us now to discuss all this, Laura Barron-Lopez, national political reporter for Politico, and Shan Wu, former federal prosecutor.

HARLOW: Good morning, guys. Thank you very much for being here.

Shan, let me just begin with you because building on the reporting that Lauren just gave us. Republican and other Republican senator from Missouri, Roy Blunt, here's what he said in terms any of effort to dismiss this trial before it really even begins. Quote, "I think I'm safe in saying there's almost no interest in a motion to dismiss. Certainly there are not 51 votes for a motion to dismiss." You think Republican senators potentially, you know, in politically

dicey re-election zones are wrong to think that they need at least the optics of a full airing of a fair trial here. Why?

SHAN WU, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I actually think they are wrong because the base that they are concerned with is not going to care whether it's a motion to dismiss, some legal term, or a trial which may not have any witnesses. They just care that the president is going to be acquitted. So I think actually their idea that they need to appear fair by having a full hearing is misplaced.

[09:05:05]

I mean, they are much better off getting through this as fast as possible. I mean, McConnell has the right strategy even though I don't really agree with the outcome.

SCIUTTO: OK. It does look a little like, though, Laura, that's not going to happen. They don't have the votes there, but this question of witnesses, and it's interesting. And it's a reminder that in this whole process, you know, never forget there could be surprises because it was only a few days ago when the talk on the hill was there just aren't the votes there for witnesses. But now you have public comments from sitting Republican senators saying they would go there.

As you look at this, is that becoming a probability now as opposed to a possibility hearing from witnesses?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, POLITICO: Well, I think that we can expect a vote on the witnesses and when that vote finally comes, you know, Senate majority leader Chuck Schumer is going to be happy about that because it allows Democrats to place pressure on those vulnerable Republicans. And whether or not Susan Collins is sure what the best route is for her, she's clearly facing pressure back in her state of Maine.

She made comment to Politico just a few days ago, very aware of the fact that Democrats are spending a big amount in her state to try to flip that state. So a number of these Republicans are feeling intense pressure. Especially adding to that, the fact that Bolton said that he's willing to come up if they subpoena him.

HARLOW: That's true.

Shan, John Cornyn, influential Republican senator, really does not want the White House to use members of the House to be on their defense team in this trial. He said, quote, "Let's not infect the Senate trial with a circus-like atmosphere of the House." Is that wise counsel?

WU: I think that is wise counsel. I don't think that they're going to make the best impression substantively if they just have people basically throwing bombs on the floor. And what they want to do is get some lawyers in there or House -- the equivalent of the House managers defense team who can really kind of cut through that circus atmosphere and get the substantive legal defenses. There are ways of looking at the elements of the impeachment articles

and trying to put on the substantive defense. And as long as they do that, they know they have the votes to win. So they would be better off making some substantive arguments rather than just contributing to this extremely partisan atmosphere.

SCIUTTO: Laura, on the question of witnesses, Mitch McConnell has warned both his Republicans and I think, you know, Democratic colleagues of mutually assured destruction on the question of witnesses that say, OK, say you have the votes and you do call a John Bolton which could potentially be damaging to the president. Don't forget, you might also have a demand to call in Hunter Biden. Of course, which would not be great for Joe Biden who might be the president's opponent in 2020.

How would that work, exactly? I mean, would it be a complete witness list that senators would vote on or would they vote on witnesses one by one or have to negotiate prior to the vote?

BARRON-LOPEZ: Well, that's -- those are the details that we're still waiting to hear from Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell. We're not exactly sure how these votes will be taken. I wouldn't be surprised if they were taken one by one. And again, not only McConnell but, of course, Senator Rand Paul, a fierce defender of the president, has said that yes, he definitely would love to take a vote on bringing Hunter Biden forward if additional witnesses are added.

SCIUTTO: All right.

HARLOW: We'll have you guys back. Thank you very, very much. Laura, Shan, appreciate it.

The Russian military successfully hacked, guess what company? Ukrainian gas company Burisma. That is the same company of course tied to the president's Ukraine scandal and this whole impeachment.

SCIUTTO: And remember what happened in 2016? Russia hacked the DNC, they hacked John Podesta, Hillary Clinton's campaign manager, stole those e-mails and then released them for maximum effect around the national convention. The Democratic Party's national convention.

I always remind people how many minutes after the release of the "Access Hollywood" tape did the John Podesta e-mails get released via leaks.

HARLOW: That's right.

SCIUTTO: It was 22 minutes. You know, so stolen materials like this could have political effect if Russia chooses to follow the same path.

CNN's Matthew Chance joins us live from Moscow. Tell us what more we know about the hacking, where it came from, and what was stolen.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. I mean, look, it's amazing that we're going all over this again after it happened, you know, back in the last presidential election in 2016. But, look, I mean, what cybersecurity research in the U.S. are saying is that they've detected activity by Russian military intelligence hackers, the GRU.

Remember fancy bear, cozy bear, those names that were bantered around, some pseudonyms for Russian military hackers back then. It's the same people it seems that are engaged in a phishing attack, probing attack, whatever you want to call it, against Burisma. That gas company that employed Hunter Biden, Joe Biden, of course, presidential frontrunner.

[09:10:06]

We don't know what information they were seeking, what information they got, how deeply Burisma was compromised. But as you say, there are stark similarities to the attack that took place on the DNC server. Those e-mails released obviously to cause political disruption. And there is concern that the same pattern is being repeated now.

We've reached out, of course, both to Burisma. Burisma haven't answered their phones. We don't know why. We're still on that. We've reached out to the Russians. They've not given us a response to these allegations either. But, I mean, in the past, of course, as we well know, on this show, every time you put these allegations to the Russians, they say it's laughable. They deny any knowledge of any kind of hacking and say, you know, it's anti-Russian, you know, kind of sentiment. And my expectation is that they're going to say exactly the same when they respond to our calls this time.

SCIUTTO: Well, they're lying. Right? I mean, U.S. intelligence knows very definitively that those same Russian groups are the ones that hacked the DNC and John Podesta in 2016.

HARLOW: But --

SCIUTTO: So they don't have a good track record for credibility.

HARLOW: They are emboldened when people as high as the president say, well, maybe it's Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: You know.

SCIUTTO: Exactly.

HARLOW: All right. Matthew, thank you. Important reporting.

Still to come, progressives clash hours before they are face-to-face on the debate stage. Senator Warren says Senator Sanders did tell her in a meeting that he thought a woman could not win the White House in 2020. Sanders' team calling that accusation ludicrous.

We'll take you live to Des Moines.

SCIUTTO: Plus, as doubts grow over White House claims that there was an imminent attack from Iran before the Soleimani killing, now the State Department says it was not even aware of any embassy threats before the strike that killed Iran's top general. Normally you would have such warnings if the intelligence indicated that.

And the air in Australia is so smokey from bush fires, it sent a player at the Australian Open into a coughing fit and suspended practice. We're going to have the latest ahead.

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[09:15:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: All right, tonight is the night. The stage is set for the first presidential debate of the decade. It's right here on CNN tonight. Take a look at these candidates. These are the six faces you'll see on stage vying for position with the Iowa caucuses just 20 days away and it could get tense.

JIM SCIUTTO, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: After a months-long unspoken pact, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are now going after one another in public. The latest attack, Warren says that Sanders told her during a December 2018 meeting that a woman could not win in 2020. Sanders says that's ludicrous. Joining us now, CNN correspondent Leyla Santiago, she's in Des Moines.

CNN editor-at-large Chris Cillizza, and senior editor at "The Atlantic" -- senior editor at "The Atlantic", editor Ron Brownstein. Ron, let me begin with you because Warren and Sanders have been Biden's primary challengers, really, for front-runner status here. And the conventional wisdom has been, they split the progressive vote, you know, to his advantage. I wonder if this public spat between them also helps Biden, particularly coming off some good polling lately for him in Iowa.

RON BROWNSTEIN, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well, one thing we know from the past is when you're still at the point of the race where you have a lot of candidates in the field. When candidate A and candidate B get into a fight, it often helps candidate C, and that was certainly the case in 2004 in Iowa when Howard Dean and Richard Gephardt kind of tore each other apart and John Kerry came through the wreckage to win.

So in that sense, it benefits Biden. But you know, it's been remarkable how much Warren and Sanders have had this non-aggression pact. I mean, they do have demographic differences in their support. Her support, as he accurately pointed out in his script for his volunteers is more upscale than hers. But they are basically competing for the left flank of the party. So, perhaps, Jim, it was inevitable to get to the point where they are conflicting.

HARLOW: Cillizza, you wrote in your column last night about Cory Booker and why this very positive come together, sort of kumbaya- moment campaign does not work right now. And you write, "anger, not hope, is a defining trait of this year's Democratic electorate" and that Booker learned the hard way. So what does that -- if that is the case -- and you're a smart guy, I think that is --

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Well -- HARLOW: The case

CILLIZZA: Thanks, Poppy, I'm glad I came on.

HARLOW: On given days. What does that mean for the debate stage tonight and the 20 ensuing days before Iowa if anger wins out here.

CILLIZZA: Yes, I mean, I do think there is this frustration and anger coursing through the Democratic electorate aimed at Donald Trump. And what they -- the message of, we can all come together is Joe Biden is running sort of on that message, too, that he can fix things. I think you've seen the reason why I think Warren and Sanders frankly have been able to stay top-tier while competing, broadly speaking for the same voter is the fact that there are a lot of people who think, look, we need to stand up to Donald Trump.

This is no longer -- this is not about -- oh, it's a little tweak, we need to fix. We need to overhaul this whole thing. And that's sort of one of the fundamental arguments here. Joe Biden saying broadly again, we need to go back to where we were. That, yes, things went off track, but we can get them back on. Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders saying, look, things are so broken, the idea that we can sort of tweak, turn one knob a little bit and we'll get back on course is fundamentally different.

Those are the two visions of the party broadly, and in that -- embodied in those three candidates.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARLOW: Yes --

SCIUTTO: Leyla, you're in Iowa on the ground here, where we could have the beginning of a trial of the president. That, of course, the news in Washington. I wonder with Iowa voters, how much are they talking about impeachment?

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen. You know, when we released on the CNN poll the top issues here, there was climate change, there was medical or excuse me -- like the Medicare for all health care issue, among them foreign policy.

[09:20:00]

Not really seeing impeachment as the top issue. But why that will matter in terms of the candidates and their 2020 campaigns is because that could mean three of these senators or that will mean rather, that three of the senators will now not be in Iowa in the three weeks leading up to the caucuses. You have Senator Klobuchar, Senator Sanders and Senator Warren that will now have to find a way for surrogates to step in and speak on their behalf.

Maybe find creative ways to do it through the internet, to Skype into town halls or in meetings. To maybe find time to get on air through the media after the hearings, to sort of take a stand and maybe have a moment through the impeachment trial -- so -- or the trial in the Senate anyway. So they're really going to have to find a way, even if it may not be the number one issue for voters here in Iowa to get around it in order to gain ground in the weeks leading up to the caucuses.

HARLOW: And I would just note, guys, something that just crossed is Jerry Nadler, chairman of the Judiciary Committee just told our Manu Raju, he sort of expects that he will be named as an impeachment manager. We'll see. We'll see and we should learn those maybe today --

SCIUTTO: And from his roles to the committee chairman, typically, they do in pranos(ph) --

HARLOW: Yes --

SCIUTTO: It was already something of a snap to him that Schiff was the --

HARLOW: Oh, that's a good point --

SCIUTTO: Was the lead during --

HARLOW: That's a good point --

SCIUTTO: The house impeachment, yes --

HARLOW: Yes, good point, so maybe we'll hear those names today. But Ron, you have a new piece out that's really important that people read because it's about the potential cost, if Bernie Sanders becomes president, in terms of cost of the programs that he has --

BROWNSTEIN: Yes --

HARLOW: Promised the American people. They would have to get through Congress, but assuming they do, you talk to folks at the committee for a responsible federal budget. And you think that voters and the media have not pressed Sanders enough on this.

BROWNSTEIN: Right --

HARLOW: What is the top line here?

BROWNSTEIN: Right, there's been almost no discussion about the full magnitude of Senator Sanders' agenda that he is proposing. And to the extent that there has been, it's been about Medicare for all, but the rest of his agenda, the best estimates are the rest of his agenda would cost at least as much as Medicare for all which would put the price tag for the entire set of proposals that he's put out at about $60 trillion over a decade.

That is equal to the total expected federal spending over the next decade. So, we're talking about doubling the size of the federal government, measured as a share of the economy, Poppy, he is proposing spending increases 30 times as large as Hillary Clinton ran on in 2016, 15 times as large as Obama ran on in 2008 and two and a half times as large as McGovern in '72 or the actual increase in new deal spending according to a historical analysis of these other programs by Larry Summers, who was the top economic adviser to Obama --

HARLOW: Right --

BROWNSTEIN: Treasury Secretary for Clinton. So, we are talking about an unprecedented peacetime increase in the size and scope of the federal government. But the other candidates I think have never -- both in Clinton in '16 and the field in this time, have chosen not to directly engage him in part because they don't think he can win, which may be an outdated view, and they don't want to alienate his very -- you know, fervent supporters.

HARLOW: Sure --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

CILLIZZA: And you did see very quickly, guys, you did see -- Joe Biden, it wasn't directed at Sanders, but more generally at Sanders and Warren. Joe Biden will say, how are we going to pay for it, right, in the debate? And I wonder. That's a big problem if Bernie Sanders is the nominee. Everyone needs to read that because what -- that is the --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

CILLIZZA: Easiest thing to say is Bernie Sanders wants government to solve all your problems. It's going to cost $60 trillion, and how is he going to pay for it? Raise all your taxes.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

CILLIZZA: That if electability is the most important thing, that's an issue that should be litigated in the Democratic primary, even if it's not a priority --

SCIUTTO: Sure --

CILLIZZA: For Democratic voters.

SCIUTTO: Although in fairness, neither party has shown much interest in actually paying for things that --

CILLIZZA: Zero interest, you're right about that, yes --

SCIUTTO: Let's remember that --

CILLIZZA: Yes --

SCIUTTO: We've seen a lot of proof of that recently. Leyla, while you're there, you know, you have Monmouth poll, the most recent poll out showing Biden with the lead in Iowa, bigger I think than previously we've seen there. Who has the momentum as you're speaking to the campaigns there in Iowa who feels they have the momentum going into the caucus.

SANTIAGO: Well, listen, that's what the caucuses are going to be. That's why they're so important because up until now, we've had the polls sort of as a marker. We've had the campaigns themselves saying, look at everything, you know, the momentum we've been able to drive through town halls and even online, social media.

But the caucuses that are three weeks away will be the first time that it's really on the scoreboard, right? That will be the first time that we're not just talking through pundits or polls. It will be the first time that we can actually see, look, this person came in with this much. And so that scoreboard will be the first time that we can kind of get a better understanding.

And that is just three weeks away. That's why this debate is so important in terms of momentum and February 3rd, what comes out of the caucuses here.

HARLOW: Thank you all --

BROWNSTEIN: Oh, OK --

HARLOW: Oh, sorry, Ron, we'll have you back. I would --

BROWNSTEIN: Well, there's more time, yes.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARLOW: There is more time next time. And next hour, we'll talk a little bit more about the lack of diversity for a party that touts its inclusivity, not a single candidate of color will be on that stage tomorrow -- tonight. Not tomorrow, tonight. Leyla, thank you --

BROWNSTEIN: Tonight --

HARLOW: Chris Cillizza, Ron Brownstein, we appreciate it.

[09:25:00]

BROWNSTEIN: Thank you, thank you.

HARLOW: Again, it is tonight, the debate, 9:00 Eastern in Des Moines, and only right here on CNN.

SCIUTTO: And we have this just in to CNN, this is a statement from the Biden campaign, Joe Biden on the Burisma hack. Here it is reading, "this proves that both Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin understand the true stakes of this election, Joe Biden is running to bring our country together and restore American leadership in the world, repairing the damage Donald Trump has done to our National Security and alliances.

Donald Trump tried to coerce Ukraine into lying about Joe Biden and a major bipartisan international anti-corruption victory because he recognized that he can't beat the vice president. Now, we know that Vladimir Putin also sees Joe Biden as a threat. Any American president who had not repeatedly encouraged foreign interventions of this kind would immediately condemn this attack on the sovereignty of our elections." That shows there, the Biden campaign taking this very seriously, and listen, America needs to take it seriously. Russia has played this game before in 2016. Are we seeing the ground work being laid for the same in 2020?

HARLOW: All right, we have much more on that ahead. Also Iran now claiming it arrested several people for their role in bringing down that Ukrainian airliner. Can we trust the government there to tell the truth on that investigation? We are also moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street, stocks looking to start the day relatively flat, coming off record closing for the S&P and the Nasdaq. The records fueled by the U.S. decision to remove China from its currency manipulator list.

China's Vice Premier and top negotiators are in Washington right now. Tomorrow they sign phase one of this trade agreement rolling back a lot of what the president put in place.

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