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Russia Hacks Burisma; Democrats Set to Debate; Senate Preparing to Begin Impeachment Trial. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 14, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:01]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Moments ago, the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, just announced that, with the House set to vote on transmitting those articles of impeachment against Trump tomorrow, his chamber can now take its next steps.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): The House is likely finally send the articles over to us tomorrow, and we will be able to, we believe, if that happens, in all likelihood, go through some preliminary steps here this week.

We hope to be able to achieve that by consent, which would set us up to begin the actual trial next Tuesday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN's Manu Raju and Lauren Fox are both on Capitol Hill.

And in just a matter of hours, we have gone from uncertainty about Pelosi's next steps to an actual date for President Trump's impeachment trial.

Manu, the trial is likely to start next Tuesday. The White House wants it wrapped up by that State of the Union on February 4. You have learned that one Senate Republican says that probably won't happen.

Who is it, and what is he saying?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is Senator Roy Blunt, who's in a key position. He's involved with a lot of the impeachment trial logistics, member of the Republican leadership.

Just talked to reporters off the Senate floor coming out of this lunch where they discussed the impeachment process going forward. And he made it pretty clear that he does not believe that the impeachment trial will be wrapped up by February 4.

I asked him directly about that, and he said it's -- quote -- "hard to imagine" that it could be wrapped up by February 4, that it would only last two or three weeks, and he said in part because of the delay in getting the articles of impeachment from the House, and all the steps, procedural steps that need to be taken on the Senate floor before they would actually begin the trial.

It looks like they're also preparing to get out of town essentially this weekend, after the articles are delivered, probably tomorrow, after that vote happens, and the House names the impeachment managers. Then there will be the ceremonial steps. The senators will be sworn in. The chief justice, John Roberts, will preside over the trial, will be sworn in.

Senators are expected to leave town for that Martin Luther King weekend. In the meantime, some of the trial work and preparations will begin behind the scenes, and then Tuesday is when they would actually vote on the actual formal procedures of the trial, and then the arguments will take place on both sides.

The Democrat impeachment managers, who we don't know who those individuals are yet, will make the case, and then the president's defense team will make its case. And that could take a couple of weeks.

And that's why Roy Blunt is making it clear, Brooke, that he thinks it's unlikely the president can be cleared by the State of the Union, which is exactly what the White House wanted. They wanted the president to have that nationally televised address making the case that he was exonerated.

But it could be like what we saw in 1999, when Bill Clinton delivered his State of the Union during the Senate impeachment trial -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, so TBD on February 4, whether he can stand up there and say, hey, I'm acquitted.

But in terms of the substance of this impeachment trial, Lauren, over to you, because, also, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell just flip-flopped on the dismissal of charges.

So, what is he now saying, and what's behind that?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, Majority Leader McConnell for a long time has been making the case behind the scenes that a motion to dismiss is unnecessary, and here's why.

Essentially, he knows he does not have the votes, the 51 votes that would be needed in order to just dismiss this case outright. Instead, the case he's been making to his own members and to the president of the United States has been, look, wouldn't it be better to hear the arguments and then acquit the president outright?

So Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said today at the mic that that is his plan. He also walked his members through what this process is going to look like. Remember, Brooke, this is going to be very tough for lawmakers who are used to talking and kibitzing on the Senate floor who are going to suddenly have to just be listening to this argument without their cell phones, without any kind of technology to distract them.

At least that's what the expectation is at this point. So McConnell giving them a little bit of a debrief on what that's going to look like, when this all gets started next Tuesday -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. Lauren and Manu, thank you.

Once things do get started over in the Senate, the Democrats' push to hear from the likes of John Bolton and Mick Mulvaney may get an assist from a small, but potentially influential group of Republicans.

Mitt Romney, Lamar Alexander, Lisa Murkowski, and Susan Collins all say they are open to hearing from those at the center of the president's efforts on Ukraine, something Mitch McConnell addressed today as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: All 53 of us have reached an understanding, very, very similar to the one that was achieved at the beginning of the Clinton impeachment trial 100-0 that would set up the arguments by the parties, the prosecutors, and the defense, and then a written question period, and then after that the more contentious issue of witnesses would be addressed by the Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:05:00]

BALDWIN: Tom Foreman is with us there in Washington.

And so walk us through what each of these moderate Republicans has said about this.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the reason he says it's contentious, Brooke, is this.

The White House, the president and his defenders, they not only want an acquittal. They want as little damage done as possible, meaning they don't want to lot of witnesses coming forward saying once again what was done and why that was wrong.

But people like Mitt Romney from Utah said, I'd like there to be witnesses.

So, there's one voice weighing in. Now, think about the numbers here. Lamar Alexander, you mentioned a moment ago. He's not standing for reelection. He says, yes, I am open to witnesses. Lisa Murkowski from Alaska, she's had differences with Donald Trump on numerous issues. She says she's working to have a process for a vote on witnesses or documents.

And then Susan Collins from up in Maine saying, I tend to like information. She's pushing for a chance to call witnesses.

These are only four people. Why would that matter? It matters because the Republican advantage in this chamber is 53 people, 53 people. Now, for an impeachment conviction, you have to have a two-thirds vote, but for all sorts of procedural matters like witnesses, all you need is a simple majority. So this is more than enough to tip it over, if they were to go with

the Democrats on anything, and say, yes, we're going to have witnesses. No, we're not going to move to a swift acquittal.

There are all sorts of procedural votes they could weigh in on, and that's the rep right now for Republicans. Republicans in large part just want this thing over with. They want Donald Trump to be able to walk out there and say, I was acquitted.

But some of them are saying, we don't think that represents a fair process, and we don't want our party branded as a party that railroaded the presidency, railroaded it further down into an exoneration here, when that's what they don't think is a fair process.

So, only a handful of people, but, Brooke, this handful of people could make all the difference in the world as to the nature of the hearing that Donald Trump gets.

BALDWIN: No. If Mitch McConnell is saying, hey, we will address potential witnesses as the trial rolls on, those are the four to be watching.

FOREMAN: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Tom, thank you.

FOREMAN: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: Meantime, six Democratic candidates are making last-minute preparations for tonight's CNN presidential debate, in partnership with "The Des Moines Register."

This is the final face-off before the very first votes are cast in the 2020 race in the Iowa caucuses. Two candidates everyone will be watching tonight, progressive senators, both Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.

Here is Warren doing a final walk-through of the debate stage just a little white ago. Senator Warren confirmed a conversation she had with Senator Sanders back in 2018, where he allegedly told her that he didn't believe a woman could win the presidency in 2020.

Senator Sanders has since called that claim, in a word, ludicrous.

CNN's Leyla Santiago is live in Des Moines.

And here's the question. If the senators, if Warren and Sanders are confronted about this, this evening, how do you expect that to play out on stage tonight?

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's the big question.

That is what everyone is waiting to see. As you mentioned, Senator Warren just had her walk-through just minutes ago here, and I know we have previously seen Warren and Sanders next to each other in other debates. That will not happen here. Biden will be right between them, but many people, before they even

get to their podium, will be watching to see, how do they shake hands? How do they look at each other? Because that tension that has been rising, especially after yesterday's back and forth over that 2018 conversation that you mentioned, Brooke, is very much fresh on the minds of folks.

And this is a bit of a shift, because, all along, Sanders and Warren as the two, you know, progressives in the race have sort of stuck together, really haven't bad-mouthed each other and have said they're friends, but then this happens, and that's quite a change in tone.

So, how they handle it tonight, I suspect they will want to move through it quickly, but what each role takes in that, we will have to wait and see. That's something to watch tonight.

Something else to watch tonight, foreign policy, see how Iran comes up. In the last Quinnipiac poll, 51 percent of registered voters said they're not happy with the way President Trump is handling Iran right now.

So, it will be interesting to hear from Biden on that and how the rest of the Democrats also react on stage when it comes to foreign policy.

And this is a big moment, Brooke, because we are three weeks away from the Iowa caucuses, so pretty soon it will no longer be that we're relying on polls or pundits. It will be the votes themselves that speak to who the Democrats want to put up against President Donald Trump, once those caucuses are here in Iowa.

BALDWIN: February 3, the big day. We have been talking a lot of those Iowans are really indecisive, so many candidates. They're mulling through it all in the last couple of weeks.

SANTIAGO: Right.

BALDWIN: We will be watching tonight. Leyla, thank you.

Make sure you watch tonight's debate, as the top Democrats square off in Iowa for the CNN debate, in partnership with "The Des Moines Register." Tune in 9:00 Eastern here on CNN.

[15:10:02]

So much more to watch for tonight, including the fact that there won't be a single person of color on that debate stage. Let's talk about that, the impact that's playing.

And they're doing it again. The same Russian military unit that tipped the scales of the 2016 election for President Trump, they're now attacking Burisma, the same Burisma at the center of the impeachment investigation. So what does that mean for 2020?

That's ahead.

And as the administration continues to change its story on the killing of the Iranian general, I will talk with a national security expert who says this is all because the president sees himself as the star of his own action movie. He will explain that.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:03]

BALDWIN: All right, let me remind you again, 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN, less than six hours from now, that is when the final debate will take place before next month's all-important Iowa caucuses.

So, with me now, Jill Filipovic. She's a CNN-contributing opinion writer. She just wrote the op-ed "Why Bernie Sanders Is Wrong About Women." We will get into that. Also with me, CNN political commentator Keith Boykin. He's a Democratic strategist and a former Clinton White House aide.

So, let's go there on Warren and Sanders, starting with you.

The fact that we had sources telling us and our correspondent M.J. Lee that, back in this meeting, this intimate meeting between Warren and Sanders in December of '18, at her D.C. apartment, she's -- what was relayed is that he said a woman can't win in 2020.

He has since said that that is ludicrous. I can read the full statement in just a second, but you wrote, like, as we said, why Bernie Sanders is wrong about women.

If and when this comes up this evening, which it will, how does this play out?

JILL FILIPOVIC, JOURNALIST AND LAWYER: Look, Bernie denies saying this. Warren has said that, yes, this is actually something that he said to her.

And I think, regardless of whether or not Bernie actually made this comment, it's something that's in the kind of general conversation. I have heard so many times that folks are afraid that it's dangerous to run a woman for president on a Democratic ticket because a woman can't win.

Example A, Hillary Clinton, right? Even though, for the past 50 election cycles, at least one white man has lost, right? But we don't take away from that white men can't win elections.

In the U.S., things seem impossible until they don't. I certainly didn't think an African-American man could win the presidency, and he won in a landslide. About half of Americans say they would never vote for a socialist for president. Bernie Sanders is running anyway, so obviously he believes that we can transcend even these really deep- seated biases. And I think that that is right. And so I think, if this does come up

tonight, I think, first of all, it plays, frankly, better for Warren. I think there are a lot of women in America who have grown up hearing, you can be anything you want, only to actually hit the age where they're in the workplace and realize, oh, no, there's always someone telling me that I can't.

And so I think this will be a really visceral moment for a lot of women watching who have heard no when they were told, you can be whatever you want.

BALDWIN: I agree.

So just imagine that you have Joe Biden standing in between the two of them, so it's going to be a bit like a ping-pong match, Joe Biden watching Warren and Sanders.

And what do you think? If Senator Warren essentially turns and says, Bernie, you said this to me to my face two years ago, what is -- how does he respond? He can't finger-wag one of the few women on the stage.

KEITH BOYKIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, it could get into a he said/she said at this point, and the audience is left to decide who do you trust, who do you believe?

But I don't think that people are so much interested in that fight, as they are in the discussion that Jill was having about the importance of diversity in the party, the importance of diversity in the country, and the absence of diversity on the stage, for example.

There are no people of color on the debate stage at all, and we had seven people of color running for office in this election cycle, and there are zero people who will be on the stage in the debate tonight.

BALDWIN: To that point, Cory Booker addressed that this morning on CBS. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): We have got to find a way as a party, as a nation, both parties, to understand that we are a diverse nation. The Democratic Party, which represents the true rainbow coalitions of America, has got to do a better job of getting more candidates running at all levels, supporting a system that doesn't benefit big money, but really big values.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: He talks about the system. A lot of people are blaming the DNC for the lack of diversity in the process.

Do you think it's the DNC's fault?

BOYKIN: I think it's a combination of factors, not just the DNC. But it's also those of us who are pundits and those of us who are part

of the establishment, and people who are not a part of the establishment. People are always trying to calculate who they think is most likely to win, and I think we get so much engaged in the horse race that we forget about, what are our values?

What are our values as a country? And for those of us who are Democrats, what are our values as a party? This country is 29 percent white men, but 98 percent of all of our presidents have been white men. That doesn't happen by accident. That happens because of design, and we have to do something, as Democrats, for those of us who believe in diversity, to have more women, to have more people of color, not only on the debate stage, but in the party who are representing us.

African-Americans, we have been saying for a long time, are the backbone of the party. Well, why are no African-Americans on the debate stage? We talk about women being the majority of the population, the majority of the population, and yet we have never elected a woman president in this entire -- in the entire history of our country.

BALDWIN: So there are two women, not a single, as you point, candidate of color. The only African-American candidate still standing is Deval Patrick, two women on the stage.

I want to talk about Amy Klobuchar, because, to me, I thought her last debate was excellent. She was really praised for standing out and standing up for what she believes in.

[15:20:01]

There are fewer candidates tonight, so a lot more, you know, opportunity for her. What does she need to do to stand out?

FILIPOVIC: That's a good question.

It's very clearly there are these kind of two buckets, right, ideologically on stage? We're going to have the progressive wing of the party, which is really a Bernie-Warren debate, which is why I think we see the two of their campaigns increasingly going head to head.

And then we have this -- the moderate bucket, which is really the Buttigieg, Biden, Klobuchar bucket. And of those three, Klobuchar is the one who's lagging.

I think part of the reason for that is what the feminist writer Katha Pollitt has called the Smurfette Principle. Like, there can only be one woman. Right? You can have 900 men and then you have got the girl Smurf.

BALDWIN: Yes.

FILIPOVIC: And so I think that when voters are looking at kind of diversity across a variety of vectors, there's often this -- you know, you can have one black man. You can have one woman. And then if everyone else is white men, then it's diverse. Right?

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Look at the population and how it's made up, and it is not reflected on the stage. Why not?

BOYKIN: Well, I mean, again, I think that we -- those of us who are Democrats have to do some soul-searching ourselves about the people who we select to be our candidates.

And a lot of people, like I said, are trying to sort of second-guess who they think the public will likely support.

Remember, Donald Trump is the president, so no one expected that, so they want to think, well, who can they figure out who will beat Donald Trump?

What we forget about, though, is that Hillary Clinton got 66 million votes and Donald Trump only got 63 million. Barack Obama got 69 million votes. The two candidates who got the most votes in the history of the country, one is a black man and the other is a white woman.

And yet, even in the last election, the majority of white women didn't vote for the woman candidate we had running for office. What does that say about our values, and who are the people we continue to evaluate, and how do we evaluate them? Why do we elevate some and not others?

BALDWIN: Final 30 seconds. Final thought from you.

FILIPOVIC: I think a lot of it comes down to how we see power and authority, right?

And in the United States, power and authority have always been white male characteristics. This country was founded on that vision, right?

BALDWIN: It needs to change.

FILIPOVIC: Which obviously needs to change.

There's a lot of folks that are working hard to change, but that process is slow. And so I think for a lot of -- I think you're -- Keith is right that this kind of pundit brain, what we imagine the average American wanting really informs how we talk about these issues and how we think about them, and it also informs how voters behave, right?

Perceptions of who has authority, who is passionate vs. who is angry, who is a skilled politician vs. who is a liar, and I think a lot of that is really filtered through a racial and a gendered lens.

So I think the best thing that folks like us who have the great privilege of being on television to talk about this stuff and folks at home who are thinking about these issues, the most important thing we can do is to really interrogate, how are we viewing these candidates through these deeply held biases? Can we push back on that in how we talk about them and how we think about them?

BALDWIN: Thank you. Thank you for that, Jill and Keith. Good to have you both on.

And do not miss the top Democrats squaring off tonight in Iowa at a CNN debate, in partnership with "The Des Moines Register," right here on CNN 9:00 Eastern.

Coming up, an online security firm says the Russian military just hacked the same Ukrainian country at the center of President Trump's impeachment. So, were they digging up dirt on Joe Biden in order to influence the 2020 election? Let's talk about that.

And the evolving claims by the Trump administration over the strike on Iran's top general evolving yet again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:30]

BALDWIN: Now to the brazen attack on the company at the center of the impeachment trial.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: Burisma Group lights up Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Burisma, the energy company that employed Joe Biden's son Hunter has been hacked by the Russians, according to cybersecurity researchers.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is demanding that Congress be briefed on what the Trump administration knows about the infiltration.

This online security firm Area 1 detected this hack, and its report says that Russia's military intelligence unit the GRU launched a phishing campaign in early November, and the report notes the timing related to the 2020 elections -- quote -- "raises the specter that this is an early warning of what we have anticipated since the successful cyberattacks during the 2016 U.S. elections."

Julia Ioffe is a correspondent for "G.Q." magazine and a Russia expert.

And so, Julia, it's not clear what Russia found or what the GRU was even looking for, but do you believe this has to do with Joe Biden and his son?

JULIA IOFFE, JOURNALIST, "G.Q.": I mean, again, I think we still have -- we need more information about what actually happened, what they were phishing for, what they got, what their motivations were.

But the timing and the target certainly suggest that, you know, Russia was listening. Trump had asked back in 2016, you know, Russia, if you're listening, please find those 30,000 e-mails.

BALDWIN: Yes.

IOFFE: They didn't find those -- or they -- not exactly those, but it looks like they were looking for other stuff that might potentially help Trump in his reelection bid.

BALDWIN: Would this signal to you that Vladimir Putin fears a Biden nomination

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