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Withholding Ukraine Documents from Congress; Pro-Gun Advocates Gather in Virginia; Final Campaign Days for Senators. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired January 20, 2020 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

SHAWN TURNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Potentially being collected between foreign individuals outside of the United States that could potentially be related to the impeachment proceedings. And so he's asking the right questions. I think that it's just a question of the NSA working with the office of the director of national intelligence to provide that information.

And I think it's really important to point out that that information could be corroborating or it could be exculpatory with regard to anything that's going on with regard to the impeachment hearings. It's not up to the intelligence community to decide that one way or the other. They will simply provide that information once those requests make it through the system.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Jeff Mason, do you see the administration's hand in this blocking either the intel agencies or perhaps the intel agencies assuming this would not please the White House?

JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Well, that was the implication that Congressman Schiff was making. And he was suggesting that we're not getting this information and that is a sign of pressure from the administration. There's obviously been sort of a complicated relationship between President Trump and the intelligence community broadly and he has disagreed with them before. And the implication is that that is what is influencing this kind of decision now. And it could have real world consequences if, in fact, that's the case.

SCIUTTO: Yes, if it's -- if it is, indeed, intercepts and you had foreign officials speaking about this very issue, you could see how that might be relevant.

At the same time, Shawn Turner, you have intelligence officials who normally brief publicly, particularly during the worldwide threats assessments, this is when they explain to sitting members of Congress but also the American people what are the biggest threats to U.S. national security and why. But there's now a move underway to cancel those officials public testimony perhaps because they know that in previous instances those officials have contradicted some of the president's statements.

What's the fallout from that, in your view? TURNER: Yes, well, I think, you know, it's important to remember that

for a long time the intelligence directors, I remember back when I was working for Jim Clapper, you know, during the -- doing the public worldwide threat assessment is very challenging because we're essentially talking about issues that are classified but trying to do so in an unclassified way.

Now, it is a little different in this administration in that the concern is a little different. Certainly as Jeff pointed out, you know, the intelligence community has a -- has had difficulty here with trying to walk the line between reporting intelligence as it is, which is always -- which is accurate and unbiased and fair, and having that -- those reports be inconsistent with things that you've heard coming out of the administration. Certainly that's a concern for the intelligence community because, as we've pointed out, the intelligence community is focused on trying to do the work of intelligence. And the last thing that any intelligence leader needs to -- needs right now is to be pulled into the political fray.

So while I think that it's appropriate for a public hearing to take place, I understand the concerns on the part of the intelligence community, that, you know, we don't need any more rifts between the intel community and this administration.

SCIUTTO: Well, in that case, it's the American people who lose out, right, because they don't -- they don't get a fulsome discussion of what the threats are.

TURNER: Absolutely.

SCIUTTO: If, Jeff Mason, we turn -- turn to the impeachment question here, open question, will there be votes there to call witnesses --

MASON: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Particularly a witness like John Bolton, who's raised his hand to do so. You know, Majority Leader Schumer says he's going to try to force a vote on this question at the very start when they're voting on the rules. Not clear if they have the votes then in particular. I mean how does that play out? More likely to lose that vote then but might get the four Republican votes you need after a couple of weeks?

MASON: Maybe revisit it after a couple of weeks.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

MASON: I mean people like Susan Collins, a moderate Republican, have indicated she wants to hear everything, she wants to hear the evidence, and then maybe discuss whether or not witnesses are required. So there might be enough votes, including those Republicans, to join Democrats, but probably not at the very beginning.

SCIUTTO: Right.

Does it -- I mean based on your reporting, you're not a whip for either party here, but is -- is the critical mass moving in that direction towards having the votes? I mean is it becoming a difficult vote for some of those Republicans on the bubble to say no, in effect?

MASON: Yes. I mean I think it's still an open question, but it does seem like the trend is kind of going in that direction. You hear more comments sort of saying, this is something we'd be open to, this is something we're not ruling out.

SCIUTTO: Right.

MASON: But it's hard to say. We just don't know what's going to happen in the next couple of weeks. We'll start seeing tomorrow morning -- or tomorrow afternoon.

SCIUTTO: Yes, the lesson of this is, be prepared for surprises at every turn.

MASON: For sure.

SCIUTTO: Jeff Mason, Shawn Turner, thanks to both of you, particularly for coming on -- in on this holiday.

As gun rights activists gather at the Virginia state capital, there is fear that extremists, white supremacists, could spark violence outside the otherwise peaceful demonstrations among some of those present. We're going to have a live reports from Richmond. There is real concern there about what the intention is behind this, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:39:06]

SCIUTTO: At this very hour, authorities in Richmond, Virginia, are bracing for the possibility of violence. A state of emergency in place is a massive gun rights rally gets underway at the state capital. A large but peaceful crowd is there protesting legislation to restrict access to firearms. For today, the government has banned weapons on the capital grounds. But outside capital grounds, many demonstrators are, in fact, heavily armed. They look like soldiers there. Look at those weapons. Look at the gear.

CNN's Nick Valencia joins us now.

Nick, can you tell us why they've chosen Martin Luther King Day for this protest.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we want to be very clear, Jim, is this is an event that happens every year and it's hosted by the Virginia Citizens Defense League. It has taken on a new meaning, though, this year for a variety of reasons. The threats, credible threats, that the governor has said, the arrest that we saw from the FBI of those suspected -- seven suspected neo-Nazi members, some of whom the FBI said that were on their way here.

[09:40:06] Though the critics of the governor, they don't believe that. They don't believe that there are any credible threats. They believe that was more political theater. However, security is very tight on the way in here. This is officially known as lobby day but it's turned really more into a protest day. No representatives, the Democratic representatives, are going to be here on hand to lobby. They've received death threats, so they decided not to show up out of safety concerns.

But I want to show you what's behind me here right now. Large crowds here forming very peacefully, Jim, on the steps of the front capital. I should mention, though, that a majority of the demonstrators that are here are just beyond the fence. They are outside because that's the areas where you can have your weapons. There's people there with long guns, pistols at their hips. People that knew that they weren't going to be allowed into this state grounds but decided to show up anyway because they wanted to show their support for the Second Amendment.

There is, of course, a concern that this could have a similar repercussions, a similar incident that we saw in Charlottesville in 2017. We should be very clear, though, so far the crowd is very peaceful. They've chanted USA a couple of times. They've chants some, you know, negative chants towards the Democratic governor here, Ralph Northam. But by and large, they've been very, very peaceful, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Nick Valencia there on the scene in Richmond, thanks very much. We'll continue to keep an eye on developments there this morning.

Two Honolulu police officers are dead, three people unaccounted for after a call for help led to a shooting and a massive fire. Police say the suspect shot and killed Officers Kaulike Kalama and Tiffany Enriquez, as they responded to a domestic violence call. Police say the suspect then set fire to the home. Flames spread, as you can see there, and destroyed at least six neighboring houses. The suspect and two women still unaccounted for. Police searching the debris for their remains. Quite a scene there.

Today is the last full day of campaigning for four presidential candidates who also happen to be U.S. senators. Up next, how President Trump's impeachment trial could impact those Democrats running for the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:46:31]

SCIUTTO: Four U.S. senators are hitting the campaign trail for president today on what will be there final day of pushing for votes before the start of the impeachment trial. It's a crucial time for these candidates as the Iowa caucuses, now just two weeks from today.

With me now Britney Shepherd, national political reporter for "Yahoo News," and CNN's Jessica Dean, she's in Columbia, South Carolina. Thanks to both of you.

Brittany, you've got four senators there and some of them in a fight for their lives right now in this political race. And now they're going to be sitting on the bench, right, at least for the next two weeks. What difference does that make to their campaigns?

BRITTANY SHEPHERD, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, "YAHOO NEWS": Well, you know, it's important to note that two of those senators are returning to D.C. with a bit of -- in a bit of a victory lap. "The New York Times" endorsed Senator Elizabeth Warren and Senator Amy Klobuchar for president. So in this crucial time when six out of seven days and two weeks to the Iowa caucus, they have to be squeezing in any kind of campaigning time they can.

Essentially, you know, with it in a four-way neck and neck tie in Iowa, it's not just a race for first place there. Of course we know it's a race to be second and third place in these early state primaries. And so they're going to be having to be squeezing in any -- any campaigning they can and being silenced for six out of seven days will definitely take a hit for all four of them, especially Michael Bennet, who essentially, you know, feels like he's out of the race at this point.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes, he does. And then the others right there, they're trying to get or stay in the top tier.

I want to get to "The New York Times" endorsement in a moment, but before -- before we get there, the frontrunner, of course, remains Joe Biden. And he had quite a back and forth, a clash with Bernie Sanders, Jessica Dean, and I know you were there at that event, accusing him of misrepresenting his record.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. And it was interesting because it was a voter who actually asked him about his record on Social Security. And Biden kind of looked around, he paused for just a moment and he said, you know what, I'm going to say it. And that's when he said there is this -- he called it a doctored video. If you look at it, it really is a video that is taken out of context. That if you just watch that part, it does misrepresent what he was saying.

Take a listen for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is simply a lie, that video that's going around.

This is a doctored tape. I think it's beneath and I'm looking for his campaign to come forward and disown it, but they haven't done it yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: So, there you go. You heard him call it a doctored tape. Again, it is this clipped tape, Jim, that -- that really is taken out of context. But, listen, this is a fight that Bernie Sanders has wanted to have

with Joe Biden for a while now. And here we are getting down to the wire in Iowa. The barbs are getting sharper. That video was circulated by what Biden called one of Bernie's people.

Bernie has -- Bernie Sanders has pushed back on this. Then Biden has pushed back on him.

The bottom line is the Sanders campaign wanted to have this fight. Maybe not in this way where Biden can push back on this video and say, hey, you took me out of context here, but it's also similar to a fight that Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton had in 2016. So in a weird way we've kind of been here before.

SCIUTTO: Well, I mean even the last couple of days, right, Brittany Shepherd, and you had a very open spat between Sanders and Warren.

SHEPHERD: Yes.

SCIUTTO: And, listen, some of this is natural because we're into the meaty part of the race here. Folks are going to start voting in a couple of weeks. So we're going to know who wins and who loses.

Is this damaging internal for Democrats, Brittany, to have such public battling going on?

SHEPHERD: Well, certainly you do hear from voters in states like Iowa and New Hampshire that they're kind of sick of infighting.

[09:50:02]

But with Bernie and with Biden, it kind of makes sense, right, because they're both vying for black voters, especially today, MLK Day, in South Carolina. For 65 up, black people, they really like Joe Biden, and for 35 and under, they really like Bernie Sanders, right? And as important as all these caucuses are, crucially, like, if you don't get black voters, who might not win the nomination, and that's a wall that all of these frontrunners are going to be facing into Iowa, into Nevada and beyond. So, you know, it is kind of crucial but cannibalization time for these two candidates, kind of even aside of like infighting and partisan politics, they just want to be number one in front of brain for all of these demographics.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

And, Jessica, you've seen candidates who haven't had much progress making inroads among African-American voters, Pete Buttigieg among them, Andrew Yang. I mean he tweeted out a video of him, this video, I think we can show it, of him performing at -- with a black choir in Waterloo just this weekend here. And here's that video now. They're making an effort, but you might say that Joe Biden's firewall, if that's the right way to describe it, particularly among African- Americans, typically in South Carolina, is holding.

DEAN: Yes. Yes, I think you can certainly make that argument if you look at the data points, if you look at his support among -- Biden's support among black voters, it really has not wavered since the get- go, since the beginning of this race. And the Biden campaign is counting on that. They have had all kinds of outreach to African- American voters. It is a very, very important demographic to them. And if you talk to the Biden campaign, they'll tell you, look, we're going to try and show everyone that Joe Biden can build this broad coalition, that he can win among all these different types of people, and that that's what the Democratic nominee is going to have to do in order to beat Donald Trump.

And, interestingly, Jim, you mentioned Pete Buttigieg, Andrew Yang, struggling with African-American voters. I think Andrew Yang was at 3 percent in the last "Washington Post" poll. Buttigieg at 2 percent. So they certainly have a long way to go. Buttigieg initially wasn't going to be here in South Carolina today. And, remember, this is a marquee event in an early state where you have to prove to a key constituency that you see them, that you hear them, that you can mark history and move forward with them and have a plan to take them along.

But he is here, Pete Buttigieg, today.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

All right, Brittany, let's talk about this "The New York Times" endorsement. And they're getting a lot of grief, at least on social media, for endorsing two candidates, Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar.

But let me quote from the -- because oftentimes you've got to read the thing to make your own decision about it.

DEAN: Right.

SCIUTTO: They say in this perilous moment, both the radical and realist models warrant serious consideration. That is why we are breaking with tradition and putting our support behind not one but two candidates, Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar, each of whom articulates a different path forward.

I mean essentially saying, you know, here's the choice of the American people. Is there a minimalist past -- path, rather, to change -- to responding to Donald Trump, you know, that Joe Biden says this, listen, he's an aberration, or do you need an Elizabeth Warren kind of path here, flipping the system to address these issues that led to the Trump presidency? I mean that's not an outrageous argument.

SHEPHERD: Well, no, and you are seeing this kind of ideological clash.

DEAN: Yes.

SHEPHERD: Oh, sorry.

But you're seeing it --

SCIUTTO: No, no, Brittany first, if you don't mind, but, Jessica, I want to hear from you as well.

SHEPHERD: Sure. Sure.

And so what you're hearing, especially from younger Democrats, is that, you know, it's time for big structural change, whether that's with Bernie or with Elizabeth. Or, you know, then there's like the Joe Biden coalition building return to the past, like you were saying, Jim, these two ideas are kind of fighting right now. And you're hearing from Democrats across the board saying like we just want to get Donald Trump out of office. So whatever path to victory that means, whether it's by kind of flipping the whole thing and burning it down or returning to the past is what was reflected in "The New York Times."

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SHEPHERD: And I think this is kind of a double win for Klobuchar because she also got the quad city's endorsements, which is a really important, local endorsement. And so to that electability argument, being able to appeal to the D.C. and New York and L.A. types, and as well as the Midwestern times, this might be kind of Amy Klobuchar's moment of -- we've been saying this for a long time, but I think her inflexion point is really right now.

SCIUTTO: Well, we'll know. We'll know after Iowa.

Jessica Dean, you've spent a lot of time with Joe Biden and his approach is that, if you want to call it realist or moderate approach, right, saying, listen, just elect a Democrat and everything will be fine. That's his pitch to Democratic voters.

DEAN: Yes. Yes, yes. And, you know, it was interesting last night, we heard him here in South Carolina, he had this kind of line that we had heard that was a little bit of a swipe at that. He said, look, I'm not trying to take us back, I'm trying to take us forward to where we've never been before, so kind of a swipe at people who have said, oh, he just wants to return us to normalcy, which was interesting to say.

And I think Brittany's point about Amy Klobuchar also absolutely right. Look, if anybody gets a little bump from this endorsement, it's Amy Klobuchar getting that national attention, maybe some opportunity to make some money coming -- or fundraise, you know, at this very critical moment.

But I talked to a lot of Iowa voters, a lot of early state voters, Jim, they're doing their own homework on this and they're going to make their final decision based on what they see, what they've heard from these candidates themselves.

[09:55:06]

SCIUTTO: Yes. Iowa voters there like to decide for themselves.

Jessica Dean, Brittany Shepherd --

DEAN: Yes, they do.

SCIUTTO: Thanks very much to both of you. On the eve of the Senate impeachment trial of President Trump, House

Democrats still do not know the rules of the trial. Will they find out before it all starts tomorrow?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: A very good Monday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto. And welcome to a special holiday edition of NEWSROOM.

The time and place are now set, tomorrow, 1:00, the impeachment trial of the president begins in the Senate. Senators will consider whether to remove him from office.

Now, we just need to learn the rules of that process. We're expecting a bitter showdown between the White House and House Democrats.

[10:00:03]

Soon we could get a clearer picture on how the fight will play out as both sides face a noon filing deadline to expand