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Senate Sergeant-at-Arms Will Enforce Rules During Senate Impeachment Trial; Interview With Former Senate Sergeant-at-Arms, James Ziglar; ACLU "Vigorously Objects" To Senate's Press Restrictions; Top Democratic Candidates Campaign In South Carolina; Sixty-Five Ways Trump Has Been Dishonest About Ukraine & Impeachment; Senate Restricts Media Access, Allows Only Pen & Paper. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired January 20, 2020 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

JAMES ZIGLAR, FORMER SENATE SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: I have not talked to him specifically about enforcing the rules with respect to the Senator's conduct. But I think he's a pretty smart guy. He will figure that one out.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: This is also going to be the first time -- I mean, so much has changed since 1999. Twitter is a biggie, particularly this president that likes to use Twitter. How much do you like to think the fact that the president is likely to live tweet during the trial is going to make an impact?

ZIGLAR: Well, I think it will impact it. I am not sure that it will impact it positively. Fortunately. the Senators won't be in real time watching this, the tweeting, if the president does it.

But I do think that it will -- it will be a bit distracting to the Senators and that's unfortunate. As you may recall, President Clinton stayed very quiet during his trial. You really didn't hear much from him at all. And I think that was a show of good judgment by the president.

And I certainly hope that President Trump will refrain from criticizing the Senate or commenting on it. I think that will only hurt the process and frankly, undermine the dignity that this process really should have.

BASH: I want to ask about the rules of the road, also vis-a-vis the press. Sergeant-at-arms is in charge of that. I know that often times comes at the direction of the Senate majority leader.

In this case, the ACLU sent a letter to Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer with vigorous objections to the restrictions on journalists, limited to a press pen on the second floor around the Senate chamber and, otherwise, not allowed there, banning electronic devices, installing a mag (ph).

What are your thoughts on that given what happened in 1999? Do you think that's a little too much? ZIGLAR: Well, it's hard for me to make a judgment because I only know

what I read about in the press. I have not actually seen the rules they have set up.

Dana, as you may recall, you were around there, we had a whole lot more press than we normally do at the capitol. So we did have to put additional rules in place that allowed the Senators to come and go without being constantly surrounded by press.

But -- and there were other issues that the press had. I recall -- once I heard enough of the complaints, I convened a meeting with the press gallery head and some members of the press in my office, in my conference room, and we spent five and a half hours going over those rules.

And as you may recall, we worked it out. We all compromised a little bit. It worked out very well. And the press from that point on seemed to be OK with the way we did it.

I think you can -- I think you can work with the press if you are willing to make a few compromises and they are willing to make a few compromises.

BASH: Amen. Let's hope they're watching now. This is a different time, less accommodating and there's less comity, with a "T," on both sides of the aisle and also when you are talking about these kinds of restrictions

James Ziglar, thank you so much. Appreciate you joining me this afternoon.

ZIGLAR: Thank you, Dana. And it's great talking to you.

BASH: You, too.

Thank you.

We are now just 14 days away -- can you believe it -- 14 days from the first votes being casted in the 2020 presidential election. Today, look at that, a show of unity with the frontrunners in Iowa and beyond. How long will that last?

[14:34:00]

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: In just 14 days, two weeks from today, the first votes will be casts in the presidential election at the February 3rd Iowa caucuses.

Today, in South Carolina, a show of unity for the Democratic hopefuls. The Democratic candidates running for president -- you see there -- locked arms and marched side by side at today's Martin Luther King Jr Day celebration in Columbia, South Carolina.

You see Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, they put aside their recent tense confrontation and walked arm and arm.

Before the march, Joe Biden sat down with the South Carolina newspaper to make a case for his candidacy and raised questions about the wisdom of putting more progressive candidates at the top of the ticket.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES & DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am just asking a rhetorical question. Bernie is at the top of the ticket in South Carolina, or Warren is at the top of the ticket, how many Democrats down the line do you think are going to win.

I think the candidate has to be somebody that will help the ticket down the line, where you will be able to run with and not run away from.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: CNN's Arlette Saenz joins me now from Des Moines, Iowa. That's where most of the presidential candidates have gathered for a voter forum.

Arlette, this is the final day of pushing for votes for four Senators outside of what they can do in Washington because they are going to have to pivot from the trail to the trial, the impeachment of the president of the United States.

How are you hearing from voters there and the campaigns on the ground, how that will impact the caucuses?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Dana, it could certainly have a big impact as we're heading into, two weeks from today, the Iowa caucuses, kicking off.

In fact, Senator Michael Bennet, right now behind me, acknowledging the political realities of this morning. Just a short while ago, saying he will be spending the majority of his time over in Washington sitting in that Senate impeachment trial of the president.

[14:40:07]

But these four Senators and all of the Democratic contenders are trying to make the most of their time on the trail today. The majority of them were in South Carolina for Martin Luther King Jr Day festivities. They are now in Iowa for the forum, as well as separate events some of the candidates will be holding.

But those four Senators that will be sitting in the Senate chamber for the impeachment trial, they're going to have to get creative with some of their campaigning in these final weeks.

Bernie Sanders already announced he will hold a rally here in the evening. On Wednesday, he will sit in the Senate chamber and fly back to Iowa for the rally and head back to the Senate.

Other candidates have talked about their spouses potentially campaigning for them in the final weeks.

Then for those candidates who are not Senators, Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg, they are trying to make the most of the moment. They'll be campaigning in Iowa in these coming days.

But really, this is a crucial crunch time for all of the candidates. Remember, a majority of Democratic caucus-goers in Iowa are either not fully committed to their first-choice candidate or they're undecided. So this is a lot of time for the candidates to try to push for votes and sway Iowans to caucus for them on February 3rd, which is just two weeks away -- Dana?

BASH: That's such an important point to remember. Our last poll said 60 percent of caucus-goers say they are not locked in, and that's more fluidity in the race that we have seen from previous cycles.

Arlette, thank you so much. We're going to count on you --

SAENZ: Thank you.

BASH: -- for getting us everything from the ground there.

After a break, we will go back to the big story about the president. And more broadly about the fact that he has not told the truth about a lot of things since taking office, but dishonesty about Ukraine and the impeachment is a bit different. We're fact-checking that next.

Plus, Prince Harry breaks his silence about why he and his wife, Meghan, are splitting with the royal family.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:46:34]

BASH: Since President Trump took office three years ago, keeping track of his distortions and out-right lies has been a full-time job, especially so when it comes to President Trump's responses to scrutiny of his dealings with Ukraine and the impeachment process.

Since mid-November, CNN's fact-checking team has turned up with 65 ways the president has been less than honest.

CNN's Daniel Dale is the man that has that job, fact-checking the president, and joins me now from Washington.

Daniel, let's begin with the areas where Trump had the fewest number of lies, from Ambassador Yovanovitch to his standing in the polls. Explain what you found.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Sure. At one point, he claimed Yovanovitch, the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, disliked him so much that she refused to hang his official portrait in the embassy in Kyiv.

And I found not only is there no evidence for that, but Trump himself was the cause of the delay by not sitting for his official portrait for months. So there was a delay in sending out the photo to embassies worldwide.

On the polls, you have to note that Trump has gotten some pretty decent polls on impeachment, particularly in swing states. But consistently exaggerates how good they are.

For example, at one point, about a month and a half ago, he started saying support for impeachment had fallen into the 20s. He said it was 75/25. And I looked hard and there are, at least scientific polls, that showed 75 opposition to 25 support.

BASH: What about the Bidens and impeachment? You saw bigger numbers of issues with that. Talk about that.

DALE: Yes, on the Bidens, we know one of Trump's favorite strategies when he is faced with accusations is to turn the accusations around on somebody else. You are the puppet, you are the real colluder, you are the real corrupt person.

So on the Bidens, Trump made a concerted effort to depict Joe Biden as being corrupt for his efforts in accordance with U.S. policy to get the Ukrainian prosecutor ousted when he was vice president.

So he will say that prosecutor was investigating Biden's son. There's no evidence Hunter Biden was every personally under investigation. He'll say that prosecutor was prosecuting the company where Biden sat on the board. There was no prosecution at all. There wasn't even an active investigation.

This has been, again and again, over and over.

On the impeachment process, Trump continues to say things that are just extremely and obviously dishonest. He will say things like Republicans were not allowed to ask questions of witnesses in the closed-door hearings.

The Republicans walked out of the hearings and said, yes, we did, we alternated time with the Democrats.

And Trump will say Republicans weren't not allowed to have a lawyer at the public hearings. And as everybody who watched those hearings knows, lawyer, Steve Castor, questioned witnesses on behalf of the Republicans.

So, on the whole, who Ukraine, it has been extremely obvious, relentless dishonesty over and over and over again.

BASH: Daniel, some of what you just described actually made its way into this brief, this official brief for the Senate trial, written by his attorneys. So I guess we should not be surprised by that. Maybe a little bit since these are respected lawyers. But we'll talk more about that later.

I appreciate you, as always, Daniel, for breaking that down for us.

DALE: Thank you.

[14:49:53]

We will go back to our breaking news after a break. President Trump's legal team filing a 100-plus-pages that outlines their defense, slamming the impeachment trial as a charade. We will get details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: Reporters covering President Trump's impeachment trial next week will have to work under some pretty tight restrictions.

They will have to stay in what is called a media pen. They won't be able to walk up to Senators and talk to them like those of us who covered Capitol Hill for a long time are used to doing. They have to go through metal detectors when going in and out of Senate chambers. And this is the big one, no electronics, no phones, no laptops, no recorders, no cameras. Just old-school pen and paper.

[14:55:17]

Those are the rules out there and they're getting a lot of pushback. The American Civil Liberties Union sent a letter to top leaders in the Senate saying it "vigorously objects" to the press restrictions.

Here's what they said. Part of the letter says, "Those proposed restrictions are a huge mistake as both Republican and Democratic Senators have said since they were first reported." And it goes on to say, "We ask that the Senate sergeant-at-arms and the Senate Rules Committee rescind the overly restrictive regulations."

I want to go now to our chief media correspondent, Brian Stelter.

Brian, let me preface this by saying people out there are going, boo- hoo, reporters are upset, give me a break.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: We're here to tell you it does matter, not just because of us and our access but, more importantly -- it's going to sound Pollyanna, but it's true -- the access the public has to what is going on behind the scenes. It's a fundamental.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT & CNN HOST: By keeping the media at bay, you keep the public at bay. There are clear examples of this, and we'll see as the trial gets under way.

For example, it's a great chance to remind people of something that has been true for decades. The House and Senate cameras are controlled by the House and the Senate.

We don't have editorial control over the cameras that will be witnessing the trial starting tomorrow. It will be up to the Senate what they want us to see. C-Span, CNN and other networks have lobbied to get their own cameras in there. But so far, Mitch McConnell and company have denied those requests.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: And not even still photographers. And as you mentioned, those other restrictions are going to be in place. Movement around the hallways will be difficult. Some of these rules haven't been written down yet and there's confusion about what is being enforced and what is not being enforced.

But the bottom line, we will not have as strong as extent of access as expected and, I think, the public deserves.

BASH: As somebody who walked those halls for more years than you have been alive, I think --

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: -- the really magical thing about covering Capitol Hill normally is that you can go up to a Senator, a member of Congress in pretty much anyplace and talk to them and ask them questions, and it all takes place on the second floor, the second floor of the capitol, where the Senate and House chambers are.

Now, in this impeachment trial, the Senate floor -- the second floor is blocked --

STELTER: Blocked.

BASH: -- from reporters. What that means is that Senators can stay on the second floor, those who don't want to answer our questions about what they're hearing, what they're seeing when they have breaks and so forth.

Here's a quote from a reporter from the "Philadelphia Enquirer."

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: It's really strong.

BASH: It's really strong.

Here's an example, an illustration of what we're talking about. "On Thursday, reporters found as many as 10 capital police in hallways where there are usually only one or two officers. And these cops were aggressively blocking any journalist who tried to pigeonhole Senators and carry out their First Amendment right to question those in authority."

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: I just want to say that the capitol police are there to protect people there. They are literally following orders.

STELTER: Yes, they're --

BASH: They're not doing anything wrong and they're not being jerks. They are saying these are the rules and we have to follow them.

But in general, such a short leash for reporters. You have to ask, what are they scared of?

STELTER: Yes, what are they scared of. Yes, there are real security concerns. And, yes, I love the traditions of the Senate. I was a Senate page many summers ago and it was an incredible experience to be in those chambers and those halls. It's a special place and should be protected.

But that said, it seems like this is a bigger and broader trend and that's a reluctance to confront the Ukraine scandal, a reluctance on the part of some Senators to answer questions about where they stand and what they want to see happen.

We have been seeing this with a number of moderate Republican Senators who have been avoiding interviews for many weeks at this point.

So these rules and restrictions seem like a continuation of a troubling trend, an attempt to avoid having to confront what is really a damning body of evidence.

In the same way we are seeing the continued cover-up of the evidence in this case, we are seeing an attempt by some of these Senators to avoid having to talk about it.

And hopefully, the public at least sees that. And, hopefully, we can show them at least what is happening by talking about these restrictions and explaining how it's being handled.

BASH: I should add to that, related to this is the fact that a lot of what we have seen and heard that have led to this trial is because of really good reporting.

STELTER: Right.

BASH: And even since the House impeachment, we have learned even more information because of good reporting.

STELTER: Yes. Look what's happened the past week. You wonder what else is going to come out in the days ahead.

BASH: OK, thank you so much.

STELTER: Thanks.

BASH: Brian Stelter, appreciate it.

[15:00:04]

We're at the top of the hour now. I'm Dana Bash, in for Brooke Baldwin.