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Senators Question Legal Teams Ahead Of Witness Vote; NBA On TNT Crew Honors Kobe Bryant; Interview With Sen. Mazie Hirono (D-HI) On Impeachment Questions; Interview With William Cohen. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired January 29, 2020 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:31:30]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: So according to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, he doesn't have the votes yet in terms of witnesses or not calling them. But the next two days are crucial.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now to discuss, two Capitol Hill insiders, a lot of Republican experience, Amanda Carpenter, CNN political commentator, former communications director for Senator Ted Cruz, Brendan Buck, former top congressional aide to House speakers Paul Ryan and John Boehner.

Thanks to both of you guys. So I'm trying to figure out what the politics here are for Republican senators on the fence. Right? Because if you look at the polling, 75 percent of Americans want to hear from witnesses. They've got to be hearing that from home. On the flipside, it's CNN's reporting that senators who are in tough races, Tom Tillis, Cory Gardner, Joni Ernst, Martha McSally got up at the GOP conference lunch, and said, listen, prolonging the trial is the risk for them, not voting against witnesses.

Amanda Carpenter, maybe Brendan, too, which -- where do you think they're feeling the real political pressure here?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, Mitch McConnell only cares about one thing. Fast forward, fast acquittal which is almost certain to happen to this summer. Can Republican senators essentially defend the quid pro quo that happened on the campaign trail? John Bolton is just going to confirm as a firsthand witness what we already know. And so we are in a waiting period.

They are testing out their arguments to see if this defense works. The defense is going to be, yes, the quid pro quo happened. Donald Trump was justified in doing it, because he believed Joe Biden was abusing his office for personal family gain. Now we can all agree that's a smear, we can all agree that's unfair, but that's what the play is going to be. Witness the ads being run by Rick Scott in Florida.

They're testing this argument. They want to see how it goes. And the reception of that will dictate whether there are witnesses or not on Friday.

HARLOW: Brendan, I -- I think you agree with Amanda on the Bolton stuff. I mean, it sounds like you think it's sort of a side show here.

BRENDAN BUCK, FORMER TOP AIDE, HOUSE SPEAKERS PAUL RYAN AND JOHN BOEHNER: Well, I think, as Amanda said, we know what happened. Every senator in the United States Senate understands exactly what happened. And whether it's for principled or political reasons have decided that it does not rise to the level of removing him.

Now to Jim's point about the pressure that people feel back home, yes, there are national polls that show very high support whether it's for witnesses or for removing him from office. But, remember, Republicans in Congress don't really care about national polls. They care about polls where they live. They care about what voters back home are telling them. And largely when voters are split, they are going to take the side of the people who are voting with them.

That means that's why everybody goes to their corner. So the political incentive is, A, to stick with your own party but it's also as those senators stood up in the private meeting and said, let's talk about something other than this. You know, whether a vote on this or that is good. What they want to do is talk about other things.

SCIUTTO: OK. So, Amanda Carpenter, Poppy and I in the break, we're trying to figure out the last time Mitch McConnell lost a battle in the Senate. I mean --

HARLOW: I said, does he ever not get what he wants?

SCIUTTO: I mean, perhaps the Obamacare repeal, right? That of course was John McCain with a thumbs down. But based on your knowledge of the way he operates here, do you think by Friday he gets the votes to block this? Right? In other words prevents four Republicans from defecting?

CARPENTER: I would say that they move past this quickly if I had to bet. But I just -- people need to remember that the target is Joe Biden. It's always been the target. They want to kill Joe Biden and take him out of the election because there's nothing better for Republicans in every state, in every district than to run against Bernie Sanders.

[09:35:11]

And Bernie Sanders right now is on the rise. And so whatever happens in this trial, if they need to drag it out and try to bring in Hunter Biden in order to win in November, they will.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Even though that's not what this is -- you know, at all what this is supposed to be about.

Brendan, Jim mentioned the 75 percent of Americans in that new Quinnipiac poll want to hear witnesses. That's up, you know, from our polling two weeks ago. But notably in it, it's 75 percent of independents, right? And so you have people like Senator Markey who we just had on saying

basically if you don't call witnesses, it's a cover-up. So, you know, how tough of a vote or do you not think it's a tough vote for most Republicans in the Senate just to not say, OK, more facts are helpful?

BUCK: Yes, I think if we end up having witnesses, I agree that I think we will probably end up with three votes, not four, for witnesses. But if we do end up with witnesses, I don't think it will be because of political pressure on vulnerable senators.

I think it will be because it will be the type of people who care about the institution and the Senate and what it represents. They don't want to have John Bolton make a fool of the institution later on when he releases a book and says things that they probably should have heard now.

So it's not going to be the Susan Collins -- she may vote for it, or the Cory Gardners who apply the real pressure. I think it will be the Mitt Romneys and maybe the Lamar Alexanders who say this is what the Senate should be about. We should be about finding out all of the facts and making prudent, deliberative decisions. And that's where it will come down.

But ultimately, I think Mitch McConnell is just relying on the fact that senators are tired of this. His whole strategy is based on the thinning patience of senators who are ready to be done sitting in their chair and doing other things.

CARPENTER: And I would say that's part of the reason why Lindsey Graham is so loud and others are threatening to bring in someone like a Hunter Biden because they know the people that do care about the institution that would be inclined to vote to bring someone like Bolton in don't want the prospect of the Senate being turned into a circus. And so the Republican senators who do want more information are being put in that bind as well.

SCIUTTO: I mean, the impatience -- sorry, but I mean, it's less than half the length of the Clinton impeachment trial.

HARLOW: Sure.

SCIUTTO: So I wonder how folks at home, you know, but yes, folks at home probably want them talking about other issues, or at least some do.

Amanda Carpenter, Brendan Buck, thanks so much.

HARLOW: Thanks you guys.

As the world mourns the loss of Kobe Bryant and his daughter Gianna and seven others on board that helicopter, we have new details this morning about the tragic crash. Federal investigators say it slammed into the hillside with high energy impact and was just 20 to 30 feet from clearing that hill.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Remarkable. Just so close to being safe, it seems. Officials say the helicopter did not have a terrain awareness and warning system. A safety feature which provides a pilot with information about the terrain. A warning if they are getting too low. A preliminary report is expected within the next 10 days. It could take more than a year, though, before any final report is released.

The "Inside the NBA" crew paid an emotional tribute to Kobe Bryant during last night's pre-game show. Really worth watching.

HARLOW: It really is. Andy Scholes has more on that in the "Bleacher Report" this morning from Miami. Wow. To see them mourn their dear friend.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy and Jim, it certainly was an emotional night. You know, the Lakers haven't played since Sunday's tragic crash and they postponed last night's scheduled game against the Clippers as the organization just remains in a state of shock and mourning. And instead of the game, the "Inside the NBA" guys holding an emotional tribute to Kobe sitting at center court at Staples Center and a grief-stricken NBA legend Shaquille O'Neal and Jerry West just tearing up as they continue to mourn Kobe's death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAQUILLE O'NEAL, KOBE BRYANT'S FORMER TEAMMATE: We're not going to be able to joke at his Hall of Fame ceremony. We're not going to be able to say, ha, I got five, you got four. The fact that we're not going to be able to say, if we would stay together, we could have got 10. Those were the things you can't get back. And with the loss of my father and my sister and (INAUDIBLE), I wish I could just say something to him.

JERRY WEST, FORMER LAKERS GENERAL MANAGER: Honestly, I felt like his father for two years. I don't know if I can get over this. I really don't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: Yes. It's going to continue to be an emotional time there at the Staples Center. Their next home game scheduled for Friday night against the Portland Trail Blazers.

Now meanwhile, back here in Miami, the Chiefs and 49ers continue to prepare for Super Bowl LIV. Kansas City quarterback Patrick Mahomes, get this, has a doctor protecting him. That's right. I said doctor. Right guard Laurent Duvernay Tardif is the first medical doctor to ever play in the NFL. The 6'5", 321 pounder from Canada got his medical degree from McGill University after being drafted by the Chiefs. Now Laurent says, that wasn't easy.

[09:40:07]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURENT DUVERNAY TARDIF, KANSAS CITY CHIEFS OFFENSIVE LINEMAN: It was a grind. It was a lot of sacrifice. But at the end of the day, it was worth it. You know, when I stepped on that stage at McGill University and got my MD last year, it was probably the best moment of my life after the one I'm going to live six days from now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: Yes, Laurent was drafted by the Chiefs in 2014, guys. He used to go back to Montreal in the off-season to fulfill his rotations. Got that medical degree in May of 2018. And you know, it's got to be kind of comforting for the Chiefs players, you know, if they tweak something or have an ache, just go back in the huddle, and be like, hey, Laurent, what's wrong with me?

(LAUGHTER)

HARLOW: Now I just feel like a slacker. All right, thanks, Andy. Appreciate it.

All right, soon the question and answer phase of the impeachment trial will begin as in just a few hours from now. Some members of the prosecution and the defense, though, could end up facing some pretty tough questions about their own role in all of it. We'll tell you how, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:46:08]

SCIUTTO: Both sides have now made their arguments. Now it is time for questions from senators. Minutes from now the Senate will begin the Q&A phase of the Senate impeachment trial against President Trump.

HARLOW: Seung Ming Kim, "Washington Post" White House reporter joins us now. You have an interesting piece on this, this morning including talking about how some of those making the arguments and some of those on the legal team and the House managers could become de facto witnesses, right? Adam Schiff, Cipollone. How does this thing play out?

SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So it will be really interesting to watch later today because you're right. This could be when the legal teams itself could -- themselves could be put on trial almost. And for Republicans, the focus is going to be on Adam Schiff, the lead House impeachment manager.

A lot of Republicans we've talked to saying they are preparing questions about what kind of interaction that the House Intelligence Committee chairman may have had with that anonymous whistleblower. Now Schiff has said in the past that he has not had any direct contact with the whistleblower.

But that is a way that several Republicans have indicated that they would put -- that they would put Chairman Schiff on the spot. Now for Democrats, they have a pretty interesting disposal particularly after the revelation in John Bolton's book earlier this week. They're going to be asking a lot of questions to the House legal team about, you know, what they knew about the manuscript, who knew what when.

Have they been sitting on this material to try to, you know, first of all extract some sort of answers from the White House legal team but also to continue to make their case to bring people like Bolton and other witnesses to the trial later this week?

SCIUTTO: The focus of course has been on whether Republicans will stay in lockstep to oppose witnesses. Still an open question. But I wonder if it's an open question as well as to whether Democrats will be in lockstep here if Joe Manchin, talking about the possibility of calling Hunter Biden, but also Doug Jones, Kyrsten Sinema, other Democrats in red states, some facing tough races. Is there a question whether Democrats might peel off not just on acquitting the president but on calling witnesses?

KIM: The Democrats have been unified on the question of calling witnesses in general. And that is something that Chuck Schumer had locked up pretty early in the process. And we saw that through numerous votes early last week when we saw all those procedural votes late in the night. But in terms of specific witnesses, it is an interesting development this morning with Senator Manchin saying he'd be open to calling Hunter Biden because a vast, vast majority of the Senate Democratic caucus have said Hunter Biden is not relevant to this.

Neither is the vice president. They should not be called. They should not be considered in any sort of a witness swap. So Manchin might be the outlier here. And he is also the one that is being the most closely watched for a potential acquittal of the president. A lot of Democratic sources I've talked to feel Doug Jones, who is up for re- election in Alabama, while he is up for re-election in a very red state, he needs the Democratic base to turn out for him if he has any sort of hope of keeping his seat.

SCIUTTO: Right.

KIM: And that, you know, voting to acquit the president is not part of that strategy. So everyone is probably watching Manchin more than Doug Jones right now.

SCIUTTO: Right. Yes, not unlike the president's strategy which is really just a base mobilization strategy.

Seung Min Kim, thanks very much.

HARLOW: With us now is Senator Mazie Hirono of Hawaii.

Senator, thank you for taking the time on such a busy day. I know this thing kicks off again in a few hours.

SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): Good morning. Yes.

HARLOW: Have you submitted questions and, if so, what is your most pressing question?

HIRONO: We've all submitted questions. My questions will go to focusing us on exactly what the president did and then also some of the arguments that the president's team has made. For example, is it exonerating that the president said no quid pro quo, you know, after the fact? So those are the kind of questions that I would -- I have submitted.

SCIUTTO: You may have heard your colleague, your Democratic colleague, Joe Manchin, say that in his view Hunter Biden would be a relevant witness in this trial.

[09:50:11]

What's your reaction to that?

HIRONO: I disagree with that. But my expectation is that there will be an opportunity to -- first of all, we have to get over the four hours of debate on whether or not we should even call any witnesses. But let's assume that four Republican senators decide that we should get to the issue or the motions of particular witnesses. So if we get over that and we start talking about witnesses, then I would expect that the Republicans will make a motion to have Hunter Biden come and be a witness and Joe Manchin can vote for that and I will not be voting for that.

HARLOW: OK. So speaking of Joe Manchin of West Virginia, you've got Doug Jones of Alabama, Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona in a tight race herself who really hasn't tipped her hat during this trial on what she is thinking and has stayed pretty mum.

Do you think it's a real possibility, Senator, at this point that there are multiple Democratic senators who may vote to acquit the president?

HIRONO: I haven't talked to any of them, so I'm not going to speculate. What this is going to -- this impeachment trial is going to require is all of us to look at the evidence and to determine -- basically we have to make a judgment and ask our -- you know, it's a conscious decision -- conscience decision as to whether or not the president committed impeachable acts.

SCIUTTO: What is your answer to Republicans' argument, and you're hearing this more and more, not challenging the essential facts of the case.

HARLOW: Right.

SCIUTTO: That yes, the president withheld the aid and maybe he did so to force an investigation into Joe Biden but it doesn't rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors, and oftentimes making that argument quoting Democratic senators from the Clinton impeachment, talking about just how high a standard that is. What's your answer to that argument?

HIRONO: Every impeachment trial is based on the facts that are provided. And with the Clinton impeachment trial, there was no factual evidence that he did anything that compromised national security or where a foreign power was involved, shaking down a foreign power. There was no evidence that $400 million of taxpayer money was used as a bribe. So every trial has its set of facts. And we are going to need to deal with the facts of this case to determine whether or not these facts cause us to conclude that the president committed an impeachable act.

And as far as I'm concerned, you know, how can that be promoting our national interest to have a president be part of an entire scheme that he was leading that shook down the president of another country for his own political gains? How is that promoting national security? So these are the kinds of questions that our team will be asked to expound on.

HARLOW: You wrote about John Bolton and the possibility of him testifying. Quote, "John Bolton's first-person testimony is crucial to the impeachment trial," but the House did not subpoena Bolton. They asked him to come and he did not because of the White House, let's make that very clear. But you didn't go through the courts, you didn't subpoena him.

You have impeachment managers like Schiff and Zoe Lofgren who say they would like the testimony, they don't need it, there's enough evidence here. Are they wrong? Is there not enough evidence without John Bolton?

HIRONO: There is enough evidence but on the other hand, it is the Republicans saying we want to hear first-person evidence and that is John Bolton, that is Mulvaney. So when given the opportunity to call forward first-person witnesses, they are struggling with it.

They don't want to do it. And why? Because of what they expect somebody like John Bolton to say and what John Bolton is probably going to say is the president did tell him that his hold on Ukrainian aid was dependent upon the investigations.

So, you know, this whole thing is supposed to be a search for the truth. And there's enough evidence that the president committed impeachable acts. Now, if the president's team, and this is what I was waiting for, if they had evidentiary arguments, not just arguments and conclusory statements like, oh, he said no quid pro quo.

SCIUTTO: Right.

HIRONO: That is what a call (INAUDIBLE), you know, that's not convincing at all. So those are the kind of arguments. And you mentioned they may at the end of the day use Dershowitz's argument, which is so he did all this, so what?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HIRONO: That's the Mick Mulvaney get over it. And they could do that but I think there's a definite danger in them ignoring the president's actions and just saying, so what? It is not so what.

SCIUTTO: And of course Dershowitz made precisely the opposite argument in terms of the standard for --

HIRONO: Well, of course.

SCIUTTO: Impeachment 22 years ago.

Senator Mazie Hirono, thanks very much for joining the program.

HIRONO: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: We're joined now by William Cohen. He's former secretary of Defense under President Clinton, also served as a Republican congressman who broke ranks to support impeaching President Nixon.

Great to have you on this morning. Thanks for taking the time.

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Sure. Glad to be with you.

[09:55:02]

SCIUTTO: So you served as a Republican. I wonder, as the vast majority of Republican lawmakers, that's a fact, are opposed to hearing from and asking questions to a firsthand witness to the core allegation of the impeachment trial here, what do you say to your former Republican colleagues who are opposed to such witness testimony?

COHEN: It's pretty astonishing to me that the Senate would agree to foreclose and vote to foreclose taking evidence and witnesses under examination in one of the most important functions that they have to determine whether or not a president has committed -- not has committed high crimes and misdemeanors, but is tried for them in a real trial.

So I'm astonished frankly that we're looking for four good people. My own expectations, they'll probably find three and not four. And that's sad. And that's sad as far as I'm concerned. I want to know where the Howard Bakers of the Senate that I used to serve in, with Howard Baker and Lowell Weicker, and a Jack Danforth, an Alan Simpson, a Warren Rudman, Slade Gorton, those individuals who would put their loyalty to the Constitution and not to party loyalty here.

So I'm disappointed. I think that it's pretty clear what's going to happen. I believe that there will not be witnesses called. I'd be surprised if they are called. And I think this whole business of getting Hunter Biden is a real diversion. Let's go back to one of the clear facts here. The president put pressure on Ukrainians' new president to do him a favor. In other words, you play or we don't pay. And that to me is a high crime and a misdemeanor.

That is something that is inimitable. This is totally antithetical to the office of the president of the United States to tell a country under siege from Moscow, oh, yes, but you've got to play games with us or we don't pay you. I think it's pretty clear on the facts.

HARLOW: So today begins the question and answer session. And a lot of the senators that we've been speaking to say this will determine -- could be determinative of their vote on Friday when it comes to witnesses. What would you ask if you were a sitting senator or juror submitting a question today?

COHEN: Well, the questions would be if I were there, I would ask why didn't the president -- if he's really concerned about corruption, why didn't he go to the key members of Congress who approved the aid going to Ukraine, talk to them about, are you sure we should be doing this? Go beyond that, go to your secretary of Defense. The Defense Department said they're complying. Why not go to the secretary of Defense? Why not go to your secretary of State? Why not go to your CIA?

So I would ask those kinds of questions, why did you say go to Rudy under these circumstances if you weren't trying to circumvent what you really were up to?

SCIUTTO: President Trump's former chief of staff, he was asked about John Bolton's accounts.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Of this and he told a Florida newspaper he believes his account. I'm sure you've had some encounters with John Bolton through the years. He's a longtime -- of course lifelong Republican, even very conservative Republican. I wonder, do you believe John Bolton's account?

COHEN: I don't know John Bolton. I have interacted with him only superficially. I do know General Kelly. I do know General Kelly who risked his life on the battlefield. I know he lost his son on the battlefield. And I know that he is, quote, "semper fi," always faithful to his commitment to this country. So I don't know John Bolton, I do know Kelly. And John Kelly, if he says he believes Bolton, I believe General Kelly.

So it's one of these questions of who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes? General Kelly was in that office. He saw how the president conducted himself. That's -- I mean, if you go to the real issue of General Kelly saying this, General Kelly is saying I don't believe the president, I believe John Bolton. I believe John Bolton because I have been with the president. I have seen how he has operated, and that's why I'm saying that Bolton is telling the truth if he said that.

HARLOW: And that's significant because John Kelly we know chooses his words very carefully and hasn't said all that much yet since leaving.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: William Cohen, Secretary Cohen, we appreciate you being with us this morning. Thank you very much.

COHEN: Thanks very much for inviting me on the show. I can only say -- well, I can see my time is running out, as they say to the candidates, but I think we put John Kelly and say why would John Kelly say he believes Bolton if he doesn't understand what was going on in that Oval Office.

HARLOW: Right. Yes. Fair enough. And our producers will appreciate you for watching the time there. Thank you, Secretary, we appreciate it.

And thanks to all of you for joining us. We'll see you back here tomorrow morning. I'm Poppy Harlow. SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto. Stay tuned in here.