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Trump Retaliates Against Two Impeachment Witnesses; Interview With Rep. Chris Pappas (D-NH) On The First Democratic Primary Of 2020; No Third Summit Between Trump And Kim Jong-un; Pentagon Identifies Two Soldiers Killed In Afghanistan. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired February 10, 2020 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I should say, the Gordon Sondland one seems much more understandable to me. He was a political appointment who essentially bought the ambassadorship with a million- dollar donation. Not surprising that he might be removed from the post.

I think the one that is more concerning from a political norm's point of view is that of Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, who is a career official, nonpartisan, nonpolitical official. And even if as the administration says he wasn't exactly fired because he's gone to the Defense Department, the president felt the need to try to mock him, tweeting out something -- putting lieutenant colonel in scare quotes even though this is someone who won a Purple Heart for his service.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.

SCIUTTO: And by the way they marched his twin brother out of the White House as well.

HARWOOD: Right.

SCIUTTO: Who served as an NSC lawyer. Not clear what the reason for that except guilt by association.

J.W. Verret, you say that the president feels empowered now. I'm just going to quote your tweet. You said, "Trump will feel empowered now. And his ego and his demons will lead him to overstep again in a dramatic way in the near future that creates a new scandal."

You know, I wonder if in your view this will lead the president to feel empowered that he can seek and accept foreign help in this election as, you know, the DOJ is now vetting information that Rudy Giuliani gathered in Ukraine from, you know, very questionable sources.

J.W. VERRET, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF LAW, GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY: I think there's no question but that he will attempt to do it. Look, it's shameful to see what happened to Lieutenant Colonel Vindman. I'm not sorry to see Sondland go because he didn't acquit himself well in all this. He participated in a violation of law. And then it took two or three times for him to finally become truthful to Congress. But the Vindman hiring isn't acceptable.

I don't know what Trump is going to do next. And frankly the only thing that might save us from Trump's attempts to collude with a foreign power again and re-do his playbook a third time is that it looks like the frontrunners from the Democratic primary probably Russia doesn't have any dirt on them. I -- but, you know, maybe they could hack those servers. Who knows?

It's worrisome. He will be impeached again, I just don't know for what, and it will be legitimate. It could be for things personal having to do with his company as well.

HARLOW: But just to stick on that for a moment, if people missed in the intro when I quickly said you worked for the president, I mean, you worked on the transition team. You were a believer, you were a supporter, and now you're saying he's going to be impeached again.

VERRET: Well, I was Marco Rubio supporter in the primary.

HARLOW: Yes, but --

VERRET: I jumped in the transition team to help

HARLOW: OK.

VERRET: And I left before he was elected because I saw what was going on. And I saw the -- you know, on the transitional team the conventional wisdom there was don't mess with the foreign policy stuff because there's some weird stuff going on with Ukraine. I don't know, something to do with Russia and Ukraine. It was just too strange for me and that's why I left.

SCIUTTO: Yes. So --

HARWOOD: Poppy and Jim, let me just add one other thing to what you mentioned in the intro about those Republican senators.

HARLOW: Yes.

HARWOOD: It is comically ineffectual for these Republican senators. If there's one thing that we've learned in the three years of this administration so far it is that Republican senators, while bowing to the president, while essentially doing in almost every circumstance what he wants, obviously John McCain was a big exception to that, they will express concern, dismay about things.

They will make gestures designed to show that they recognize that there are some norms that he's transgressing.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARWOOD: But there is no effective, meaningful consequential action that they take. And this just underscores, you know, Susan Collins and others, Rob Portman, saying before the acquittal. Well, I think the president learned his lesson, that is not the case.

SCIUTTO: Well, by the way, the protest that they issued according to reporting there was just to say don't do the firing now because it will look bad. They didn't come to -- you know, J.W. Verret, to the defense of Vindman, a wounded veteran or to the principal here, right?

VERRET: I wish John McCain was still here because I think he would have come to his defense. I think it's shameful not to defend him even though he was set to rotate out in July. The fact that Trump took this petty action, to let him go a few months early, and make fun of him, it was just -- is just dishonorable.

HARLOW: But, John, the White House and president it seems do not believe there will be any, any consequences at all. In fact, you know, the Justice Department is vetting stuff that Rudy Giuliani is bringing back from Ukraine.

HARWOOD: There is certainly not going to be any consequence on this from Republicans in the Senate or the House for that matter. They have thrown their lot in with this president. The real question is going to be, as was discussed during the impeachment trial, what do the voters have to say about it?

HARLOW: Yes.

HARWOOD: Do they feel, as J.W. does, that this is a shameful and outrageous way to conduct the government's business? The president was at 49 percent approval in Gallup last week, has the support almost unanimously of his party.

[09:35:05]

But we've got a long way to go in the campaign and Democrats are certainly going to try to make the case that behavior like this justifies removing the president. We'll see what they decide.

SCIUTTO: Also the question is, you know, what do people hear in their information silos, right? I mean, do they hear it completely?

HARWOOD: Right.

SCIUTTO: The fact is, they do hear a completely different narrative, whether fact-based or not.

John Harwood, J.W. Verret, thanks to both of you.

Democrats are now sharpening their attacks on each other ahead of the nation's first primary. To some degree, are they doing the president's work for him?

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SCIUTTO: In just hours the very first votes of 2020 will happen and soon we will know who Democrats in New Hampshire want their nominee to be.

[09:40:03]

Keep in mind it is a state that Bernie Sanders won big back in 2016 and a state that Hillary Clinton then went on to barely beat Trump in the general election.

With me now, Democratic Congressman Chris Pappas of the state of New Hampshire.

Congressman, thanks for taking the time this morning.

REP. CHRIS PAPPAS (D-NH): Good morning, Jim. Great to be with you.

SCIUTTO: All right, so you have less than 24 to make your vote. Who are you supporting in the primary?

PAPPAS: So I'm staying out of the contest. I'll be voting in the Democratic primary, obviously, but I want to be a good ambassador for the state. There's a lot of energy out there and I think the voters have to figure this out on their own. I mean, I really trust the voters of New Hampshire to sort through all the messaging that they're hearing and find the person who's going to be best equipped to win the general election and --

SCIUTTO: OK.

PAPPAS: -- help bring this country together. I think that's what it's all about.

SCIUTTO: What kind of candidate is best equipped to win the general election? Is it the progressive, left-leaning candidate, Democratic socialist like Bernie Sanders, or is it the more moderate candidate like Biden or Buttigieg? Who can beat Trump in your view?

PAPPAS: Well, I think we've got to look at the past and what we just went through in 2018. I ran for Congress that year and so many others did across the country, who ran on how we can bring people together around solutions, how we can get things done on prescription drugs and health care and infrastructure. And so I think people are looking for candidates that can speak to the issues that Americans care most about.

I think we've had a really robust conversation here in New Hampshire. We have an opportunity to shape the field beyond tomorrow and also shape the terms of the national debate.

SCIUTTO: Right.

PAPPAS: But I don't think we shouldn't forget the lessons of the last couple of years. Democrats have won in a number of states. Red states, purple states. We have mainstream candidates that speak to the issues that Americans care most about. And I hope when we go forward that will help shape the contest.

SCIUTTO: That sounds to me very much like, when you say mainstream, when you say that what worked, for instance, in 2018, flipping red districts to blue, that sounds very much to me like you say the right course is a moderate candidate, not a far-left candidate, progressive candidate.

PAPPAS: I think there are a number of candidates in this race that can really unite the party. And I trust the process to get us there. New Hampshire is at the very beginning of the pack. We are expecting what could be a record turnout tomorrow in the New Hampshire Democratic primary. Independents are going to be an early indicator of where this contest is going to go. 42 percent of registered voters in the state are independent voters that can pick up either ballot.

And if they are largely voting in the Democratic primary and helping to shape who the nominee of our party is, I think that speaks well for our chances in the general election of defeating Donald Trump. So I think people are really constructive right now. In part, I've never seen so many undecided voters out there. They understand the stakes are really high. They are trying to get this right. And so I think there are a number of candidates that they like and ultimately, you know, I think the voters will speak loudly tomorrow.

SCIUTTO: So you want in a county that pivoted to Trump in 2016. So you're in touch with voters who might go to one party or the other party. I'm curious, based on your political sense here, did impeachment hurt Democrats and energize, rally people around the president in your district?

PAPPAS: Well, I think there's no doubt the conversation around impeachment brought out folks on all sides of the political spectrum. I know in our congressional office we've heard from folks of various points of view. Folks who supported the president, folks who were in the middle, folks on the Democratic side who really wanted the president impeached. But I think what's clear is the voters have a sense that the president did something wrong, he abused the power of his office.

They think that the trial that was held in the Senate was a sham and that there should have been evidence and witnesses. And they know that we need to continue to do our work. And that's why when I get back to Washington tonight, we've got work to do to address infrastructure in this country, to protect the environment, to make sure that we're investing in the priorities of this nation that can help support middle class families.

SCIUTTO: OK.

PAPPAS: That's where the conversation continues to need to be. So this should not be about personality. It should not just be about getting Donald Trump. It's got to be about getting to the heart of the issues that voters care about the most.

SCIUTTO: OK. So what is that contradictory message to Trump, particularly on the economy? You watch the news. The economic numbers remain strong. We just had a strong jobs report on Friday. What is the Democratic response to that? We could do better? It's not as good as you think? How do you energize, how do you rally around a message on economic issues for November?

PAPPAS: Well, it was the message that we delivered in 2018 very successfully, which is that this an economy that's been growing for about a decade now. But there are so many families that aren't sharing in the economic success of America. Families that are struggling to pay for the cost of housing and child care. Higher education costs are so high and we have students taking on a lifetime of debt to get a degree and getting to a field that makes sense for them.

[09:45:08]

So we've got to really make sure that we're protecting middle class families, we're building out economic opportunity. We're supporting the rights of workers to organize in this country, we're looking for ways to, you know, lift all votes.

SCIUTTO: Right.

PAPPAS: And I think that, you know, corporate profits are doing well.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PAPPAS: Wall Street and the Dow Jones is doing well. But that's not necessarily felt on main street.

SCIUTTO: OK.

PAPPAS: That's what the candidates have been hearing very consistently here over the last many months.

SCIUTTO: So question --

PAPPAS: So we've got a job to do to make sure that this is an economy that works for everyone.

SCIUTTO: Quick question before we go. Because you made history in New Hampshire. You were the state's first openly gay congressman. Of course, Pete Buttigieg, first openly gay national candidate for the presidency here. The House majority whip Jim Clyburn told my colleague Dana Bash just in November that for African-American voters that is an issue.

It's an issue, a negative issue. And I just wonder, is he right? And how does Pete Buttigieg address that going forward?

PAPPAS: I think that when candidates are open and honest about who they are, it's a net plus. And I think Mayor Buttigieg has seen that out on the campaign trail in Iowa and now here in New Hampshire. People appreciate his authenticity. And I think it's important that everyone has a seat at the table. You know, that's what was so critical about the 2018 elections is we elected a more diverse Congress.

And when you do that, it means that everyone is represented. So I think his candidacy says so much about how far we've come in this nation, where everyone can live their truth. I know he probably meets people out there on the campaign trail all the time, young LGTBQ Americans, folks that are questioning, wanting to know if this country has a place for them. And his candidacy reaffirms that. And I think the people of this state and this country are kind,

decent, generous people. This is a live and let live state here in New Hampshire. We were on the leading edge of passing marriage equality legislatively, respecting everyone.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PAPPAS: And so we've got to make sure that everyone is on equal footing and I think his candidacy will be embraced largely by Americans.

SCIUTTO: Wise words. Congressman, real pleasure to have you on the show this morning.

PAPPAS: Thanks so much.

HARLOW: All right. It was not that long ago that you heard the president talking about love with North Korea's Kim Jong-un. Now he doesn't want a third summit? We'll tell you about that.

Also the world has watched pretty much their every move. Now CNN presents the story of the world's most famous royals, "THE WINDSORS: INSIDE THE ROYAL DYNASTY," premieres this Sunday, 10:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

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[09:52:08]

HARLOW: Well, CNN has learned a possible third summit between President Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong-un likely not going to happen before the election.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Apparently the president doesn't want it. The leaders last met in June when President Trump became the first sitting American president to step into North Korean territory. You'll remember that's the scene there. But since then the relationship has cooled, negotiations have frozen.

CNN's Kylie Atwood joins us now.

Kylie, you've heard the president's interest in talk has waned as his re-election campaign ramps up. I imagine this is tied to the lack of progress we've seen at the working level.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. That is one of the reasons, Jim. So we are reporting that President Trump has told top foreign policy advisers that, as you said, he does not want another summit with Kim Jong-un ahead of his presidential election in November. These comments came at the end of last year after he was frustrated because those working-level negotiations that happened in October essentially fell apart with the North Koreans pointing their finger at the U.S. side saying they hadn't showed up prepared for negotiations.

The U.S. tried to cast it in a more positive light. But the bottom line is that the parties have not come back to the negotiating table. And President Trump hasn't talked about North Korea much at all in recent weeks. During his State of the Union address last week, he didn't reference North Korea or Kim Jong-un once. And that is a stark contrast with regard to last year because you'll remember that he used that address to the nation to announce that he was going to be having his second summit with Kim Jong-un just weeks later.

And he was also asked about North Korea at the end of last year. He essentially told reporters, listen, I'm leading my country, Kim Jong- un is leading his, and we both have things that we have to do. One of those things for President Trump is his re-election campaign and sources tell me that he doesn't see -- the campaign does not see North Korea as an integral part to him winning re-election come November -- Jim and Poppy.

SCIUTTO: A demonstration that they haven't made progress. You've had the summits but no progress on the nuclear program and they don't want to advertise that during the election.

Kylie Atwood, thanks very much.

The Pentagon has now identified two U.S. soldiers killed during an attack in Afghanistan. They were Sergeant 1st Class Javier Gutierrez and Sergeant 1st Class Antonio Rodriguez. They were killed Saturday at a Joint U.S. Afghan base in the eastern part of the country.

HARLOW: Six other service members were also wounded in that attack. They are among the 13,000 U.S. troops stationed in Afghanistan fighting America's longest war.

Let's go to the Pentagon, Barbara Starr has more for us this morning. Good morning, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to both of you. Apparently the troops were leaving the meeting with some local officials when a man in an Afghan Security uniform opened fire with a machine gun on them, leading to the death of these two Americans and the wounding of six others.

[09:55:01]

Now, the Pentagon has not yet officially discussed what they believe could be any possible motive for this attack. So it's not clear yet officially whether the person was somebody not an Afghan Security member, but in a uniform, perhaps stolen, or was the person a member of Afghan Security Forces.

All of this goes to the question of motive so it's not clear if it was an ambush or if this person was even aiming at the Americans at the time. All of that still under investigation. But as you say, it comes at a very tough time in Afghanistan. 13,000 troops there, the Trump administration very much looking to reduce that number, bring it down to just over 8,000. But 22 Americans lost their lives in Afghanistan, just last year. The highest level since 2014. It remains very violent, very dangerous for the troops who are there, of course.

HARLOW: Certainly does. A reminder of that with these two lives lost.

Barbara, thank you for the reporting from the Pentagon.

Back to election politics, The Democratic frontrunners sharpening their attacks on one another, just hours before the first New Hampshire voters head to the polls.

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