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Bloomberg Under Fire Over Stop and Frisk; Trump Administration Giving Special Treatment to Roger Stone?; New Hampshire Votes. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 11, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:02]

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Does this ever happen?

PROKUPECZ: It's unprecedented. You don't see it in -- in a situation like this.

And what it -- ultimately, what it does look like is that Roger Stone here is getting some kind of special treatment, and that is what is so concerning to so many people who were either former DOJ officials or even people inside the Justice Department, local, you know, your line assistants, U.S. attorneys who are prosecuting these cases on a daily basis.

There is concern here because it would seem that the Department of Justice is meddling in this case, after they had filed the sentencing memorandum.

And here's what the Department of Justice is saying, how all of this unfolded. And they say, essentially, that they were shocked to see the sentencing recommendation, that this is not what had been briefed to the department. "The department believes the recommendation is extreme and excessive and is grossly disproportionate to Stone's offenses. The department will clarify its position later today with the court."

So we expect to hear more from the Department of Justice. They're supposed to file this memo at some point today. But this is highly, highly unusual. I certainly have not seen a situation like this.

And in talking to former DOJ officials, high-ranking DOJ officials, they have never seen anything like this before.

BALDWIN: They're shocked.

John Dean, what do you think?

(LAUGHTER)

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You never know with Trump, do we? BALDWIN: No.

DEAN: The tweet obviously had a real influence.

And I must say, to put the cards on the table, Roger Stone is somebody I hold in minimum high esteem, to put it nicely. In fact, I can't even say on television my assessment of him, but -- so I was not unhappy to see him get seven to nine, but I did--

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: You didn't think that was too aggressive?

DEAN: I thought it was aggressive. If you take the Watergate precedents, the most egregious and least cooperative and most belligerent figure was Gordon Liddy, who is someone that Stone admires greatly.

He only got four years in prison, but his sentence was commuted by Jimmy Carter when it got to that point. The chief of staff, Bob Haldeman, John Ehrlichman, his top domestic adviser, his attorney general, all committed perjury in front of Congress and obstructed justice. They only got 18 months.

So seven to nine years was very hefty. But what I see here is the influence of Bill Barr's very close associate who's gone over to run on a temporary basis as acting U.S. attorney the D.C. office, and he obviously didn't get on board on the first one. They didn't get any comment from him, and now he is probably putting his foot on it.

BALDWIN: Wow.

Susan, what do you think?

SUSAN HENNESSEY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think the thing to be concerned about is the overpoliticization of law enforcement.

So, this certainly is a highly unusual situation. And, look, DOJ considers -- and career prosecutors have a lot of considerations whenever they decide what to put in those sentencing recommendations, what they think is in the best interests of justice, the severity of the crime, any sort of exacerbating issues they think the court should take into consideration.

Now, reportedly, that process was debated within the U.S. attorney's office in the District of Columbia. The interim U.S. attorney from that office actually did sign off on this recommendation, and now what we're seeing is that apolitical process having produced a recommendation, political actors in the Department of Justice reaching in and essentially overturning it.

And that's something to really, really be concerned and quite alarmed about.

BALDWIN: What about -- I'm just thinking now of this judge here, right? John Dean, this is back over to you. Judge Amy Berman Jackson, she has seen the proverbial receipts, right? She has seen the unredacted Mueller report. She's seen the sentencing memo in front of her that prosecutors used to make the case for the seven to nine years.

How does the Department of Justice then now walk this back?

DEAN: Well, it will be tough, because, after all, Brooke, it is the judge who makes the final decision. She may or may not listen to the department's recommendations.

What she will look at most closely is the probation report that's been prepared on Stone. She will study that closely and make her decision probably based on that information, although it will be hard for her to get out of her mind the fact that Roger Stone put a picture of her online with a--

BALDWIN: With the crosshairs.

DEAN: A sharpshooter's targets, right, the crosshairs.

PROKUPECZ: The other issue in all of this, if I may just follow up on what John Dean said.

BALDWIN: Yes.

PROKUPECZ: There is an added component to this.

It's not just that Roger Stone lied and he's been convicted by a jury for lying. But there's the witness tampering charge, and that is something the government takes very seriously. The U.S. attorneys take it very seriously, because it affects cases.

[15:05:01]

Here, Roger Stone was convicted of witness tampering, of intimidating Roger -- of Randy Credico, his longtime friend, former friend, whatever, and tried to get him not to cooperate in this investigation.

And he came in and he testified to that. And a jury believed him, and they have convicted him. So that's the added component on this. It's not that just he lied and that he went before Congress.

BALDWIN: It's more than that.

PROKUPECZ: It's more than that.

And that in itself is important, obviously, that he lied, but then you have this other component of the witness tampering.

BALDWIN: Susan, what do you think, just back to the DOJ, the point about Bill Barr, just his willingness to go along with this?

HENNESSEY: Yes, Bill Barr clearly is not concerned about maintaining legitimacy or institutional credibility for the Department of Justice, and that's something we really should be concerned about. (CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Isn't that a major problem?

HENNESSEY: It is.

And the president has been quite open that he believes that the purpose of the Department of Justice and law enforcement is to protect his friends and target his enemies. And I don't think that there's anybody who legitimately wonders right now if this -- if Roger Stone was not a close ally of the president of the United States whether or not the attorney general would feel compelled to intervene in this circumstances.

And that suggests that the Department of Justice is not seeking impartial justice under the law, but instead is doing the political bidding of the president of the United States, and that's something that should be profoundly alarming, really to anybody who cares about independent law enforcement, which is a foundational value really in all democracies.

PROKUPECZ: And that is a concern inside the Department of Justice, and I'm not talking about just in D.C.

But if you talk to people who work at U.S. attorney's offices across the country, there is that legitimate concern that somehow they have to be on edge and concerned that Bill Barr is going to interfere in investigations that he shouldn't be interfering in, making recommendations or even not allowing them to pursue certain investigations for whatever reason, you know, political reasons.

That's always a concern, but really if you talk to people inside U.S. attorney's offices across the country, that is a -- what Susan there is talking about, that is a legitimate concern.

BALDWIN: Speaking of justice, everyone stand by.

We have got more breaking news in this case.

So, Evan Perez is at the Justice Department.

And so, Evan, what's the new layer to all of this?

You're live, Evan. Go ahead.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, hi. Can you guys hear me?

BALDWIN: Yes, yes, you're live. Hit me.

PEREZ: Hello?

BALDWIN: What do you know? Can you hear me, Evan?

PEREZ: Oh, yes, hi. Sorry. Sorry, Brooke.

BALDWIN: No worries. PEREZ: Yes.

The top -- one of the prosecutors who has been handling the Roger Stone case here in the U.S. attorney general's office has now stepped down from the case. We're still trying to get some more information from the Justice Department exactly what was -- what's behind this.

But we just got a court filing that indicates that he, Aaron Zelinsky, who was on the Mueller team, one of the prosecutors on the Mueller team, has now resigned from the case. Again, we're asking the Justice Department exactly why that is.

But, obviously, you can see what has happened in the last -- just in the last 24 hours. The Justice Department has now disavowed what the prosecutors decided was the correct sentence, seven to nine years for Roger Stone.

The president has tweeted about this, and, of course, now the Justice Department says that that was way beyond what should have been done, and so now we're still waiting to hear what the new recommendation will be from the Justice Department, what exactly will be the decision from the Justice Department as far as the correct sentence that they are going to be behind on Roger Stone.

But the fact that one of the prosecutors on this case has now stepped away really kind of speaks very loud volumes as to what the reaction is behind the scenes among the prosecutors who have been undercut by their bosses here at the Justice Department -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Can I ask you, Evan, was this, how do I say, on his own volition, or was he asked to leave?

PEREZ: Again, we literally just got this court filing a few moments ago, and so we don't know exactly what the reasoning was for this.

BALDWIN: OK.

PEREZ: But, obviously, I think, Brooke, you can see what has happened in the last few hours.

You can see that, you know, definitely, behind the scenes, prosecutors are not happy that their own bosses are undercutting them, essentially criticizing them very sharply, saying that this was an excessive sentencing, when, you know, I think everybody who you have been talking to tells you that this is kind of in line with the mathematical equation that they usually come up with for these types of offenses.

Obviously, the judge overseeing this case is going to make her own decision as to what the correct sentence is going to be.

BALDWIN: OK. I got you. Evan, thank you very much.

Shimon, as I turn to you, just -- so, the deal is, prosecutors go, and they say, all right, we suggest for Trump's good buddy Roger Stone seven to nine years for all of the above, and Trump doesn't like it. He tweets about it.

[15:10:01]

DOJ is like, what are you talking about seven to nine years?

So, now the guy who's been part of this prosecution team is all of a sudden gone.

PROKUPECZ: Yes, and this is really -- it's all playing out in public for us. Right?

BALDWIN: This is crazy.

PROKUPECZ: And it is entirely crazy that you have this prosecutor, career prosecutor, who's been with the Department of Justice for quite some time.

He was on the Mueller investigation, clearly has an issue over what's going on here. So, we don't have the full story.

BALDWIN: Yes.

PROKUPECZ: There's something that was going on here that we just don't know yet about.

And all he says, he just filed this, says, I'm withdrawing from this case now.

BALDWIN: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Let's -- we can't get to the bottom of it fully, because we don't have all the information in front of us.

But, John Dean and Susan Hennessey, when you hear this, try to take us behind the scenes, John Dean, first to you.

What is a reason for this prosecutor, Aaron Zelinsky, to just all of a sudden leave?

DEAN: I would suspect he's done this on his own volition, that he so disagrees with the decision that's being made.

He was with the Mueller team. He may have information that they know, but can't fully establish, of Roger Stone's misbehavior during the Russia investigation, indeed, during the Russia tampering with our election, material that is not privy, we're not privy to.

The judge will be, however, Brooke. This will all get to the judge. In fact, she may take a look at what's going on with the Department of Justice and call them in and say, what is going on?

BALDWIN: Wow. So she could do that, just to have the full set of facts in front of her before she makes her decision.

DEAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Susan, what do you think of this news?

HENNESSEY: Yes, so I think this was the question since this news broke early this morning, about whether or not we were going to see principled resignations out of the Department of Justice and whether or not this is the first or -- only one or the first of many.

When a career prosecutor believes that there have been a political interference in their own cases, that they are not able to carry out the even-handed administration of justice, resigning and resigning in protest is really the only remedy that they have available.

These prosecutors cannot overrule Bill Barr if he comes in and tells them, no, we're going to make a different submission to the court. And so this really is the strongest possible terms that a prosecutor can use in order to say that they believe that there is something not just that they disagree with, but something that is wrong going on.

And I think one question will be, who at the department might follow Zelinsky out of the building, saying, this has gone far enough?

PROKUPECZ: And, also, I think for the U.S. attorney's office there in Washington, D.C., what -- this is a concern, a concern across all the U.S. attorneys across the country, where what -- the fact that this guy just stepped away from this case, I'm sure this is just the beginning of it for this prosecutor.

BALDWIN: Yes.

PROKUPECZ: This is a stunning move here, because you just don't see this playing out in public like this. He wanted to make a statement. He's made his statement. He's filed. He's withdrawing from this case.

And I suspect there is a lot more to come here.

BALDWIN: We will wait for you to bring that to us, you and Evan, I know.

Everyone, thank you so, so much on this stunning story out of the DOJ today.

Let's turn our attention now to New Hampshire, where the candidates are doing everything they can to shore up those votes, move past that disaster in Iowa. We will take you to New Hampshire.

And former New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg is under fire for the shocking audio that has just resurfaced. When you listen, Bloomberg is defending stop and frisk and defends throwing black and Latino kids against the wall. You be the judge.

We have it for you coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:18:00] BALDWIN: In New Hampshire, it has been the day that has been months in the making. I'm talking, of course, about the first-in-the-nation primary.

And starting early this morning, both the candidates and the people who support them were out and about on the trail, hard at work, trying to lock in any last-minute votes.

And CNN's Evan McMorris-Santoro is at a polling place in Nashua, New Hampshire.

And so tell me what you have been seeing today, Evan.

EVAN MCMORRIS-SANTORO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hey, Brooke.

We're here at the Nashua Ward 3 polling place. And your anecdotal news of the day is that polling at this particular location has been remarkably steady, according to the moderator, which is what they call the person who runs the polling places here in New Hampshire.

We have had about 150 new people show up, because, here in New Hampshire, you can register today and also vote in the primary today. We have had a lot of those people show up, about 150.

And we have seen this thing -- this interesting New Hampshire thing that can happen, where you can come in here as an undeclared member of a party, you're not in any party at all. You come in. You declare what party you want to be a part of. You go and you vote in that party's primary.

And then, when you're done, you once again leave that party and become undeclared again. We have seen a lot of that.

An interesting storyline here has been, we have heard all different kinds of Democratic storylines, different kinds of voters people want to -- candidates that they're supporting, people that they're trying to win this important primary tonight.

But there are actually two primaries going on here in New Hampshire today, including one on the Republican side. And I talked to some voters about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TYLER MORAROS, NEW HAMPSHIRE VOTER: I really want to make sure that Trump is obviously our front-runner, which no doubt will be. And, yes, if he can go up against any of the Democrats, I think he's going to win.

KATHY MORAROS, NEW HAMPSHIRE VOTER: And I believe that all the Republican should get out for a strong standing that we back Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCMORRIS-SANTORO: So it's interesting to see that those two Republicans -- that was a mother and her son -- they feel like the Republican Party still needs to form up tighter around Trump, which I think a lot of people who've been watching news in Washington lately would say, that's kind of happened.

[15:20:00]

But they think that it needs to happen more. And they came out to vote for the president, even though he has absolutely no chance of losing the primary here tonight.

I also talked to them a bit about who they think -- what Democrat they're worried about. And they really said none of them worry them.

Democrats I have been talking to, they say, look, they're interested in finding someone who can beat the president. But those Trump supporters don't think any the current crop, they need to worry about.

BALDWIN: Right.

It's interesting hearing the president say last night when he was standing there in New Hampshire, telling everyone, vote for the weakest Democratic candidate to make it easy on him come November.

Evan, thank you in Nashua.

One of the questions former Vice President Joe Biden could not avoid in New Hampshire today was, why are you leaving? Why are you leaving for South Carolina this evening, before all the votes are counted in New Hampshire?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Are you concerned about the message that you're sending to New Hampshire by going to South Carolina?

(CROSSTALK)

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, I'm not, not at all, not at all. They know we have worked hard here. And we're continuing.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BIDEN: And we're going to go all the way tonight. And this is it. I'm not concerned about it at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now in New Hampshire, Amy Kennedy. She's the executive director of the New Hampshire Democratic Party.

So, Amy, nice to have you on. Welcome.

AMY KENNEDY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NEW HAMPSHIRE DEMOCRATIC PARTY: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: We heard Joe Biden getting questions there, you know, about his quick pivot to South Carolina. For voters who are supporting Joe Biden in New Hampshire, or maybe

they're just still trying to make up their minds, how will that decision to move to South Carolina tonight as the votes come in play out? Do you think some of them will reconsider their support?

KENNEDY: Well, I think the Democratic candidates have been in New Hampshire now in some cases for over a year, and they have had that time to talk to Granite Staters.

They have had the time to talk to voters, and voters have had a chance to vet them, and so decisions are being made about what's next, and I think that's fine.

I think the important part is that New Hampshire voters have had that time to have those one-on-one conversations with them, to vet the candidates, and to create a better candidate going into the primary.

BALDWIN: I wanted to get your thoughts on something that Ron Brownstein wrote. He's our CNN senior political analyst.

And he wrote this piece for "The Atlantic."

So, in part, he writes: "So far, none of the candidates has built a coalition that reaches broadly across the party. Instead, each is confined to a distinct niche of support that is too narrow to establish a commanding advantage in the race. That could guarantee a lengthy war of attrition for the nomination, and possibly even a brokered convention, as the leading contenders divide the Democratic voter base along the lines of race, class generation, and ideology."

I'm just curious, Amy, what are your thoughts on that, just about these niche candidates? Do you think he has a point?

KENNEDY: Well, I don't think we're going to go into a brokered convention in July.

BALDWIN: You don't.

KENNEDY: I think that there's still plenty of time ahead of us.

And, like I said, these candidates have had that time with the voters here in New Hampshire, and I think they're getting their message out.

BALDWIN: OK.

And then, just lastly, quickly, I wanted to ask you about Dixville Notch. The township of Dixville Notch cast the first votes in New Hampshire. The surprise winner there--

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: I know I hear you laugh. You tweeted about this. It was Michael Bloomberg, who isn't even on the ballot. He scored write-in votes from two Democrats and one Republican.

Do you see an opening in New Hampshire for folks who don't want Trump? Which Democrat do you think it might be?

KENNEDY: Well, I can't say which Democrat it will be yet.

I think we will see that tonight, obviously. But I think last night was something interesting to watch, and shows the beauty and how special the New Hampshire primary is, that anything could happen.

BALDWIN: Amy Kennedy, thank you.

KENNEDY: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next: Mike Bloomberg's past support for stop and frisk continues to haunt him, now in the form of leaked audio in which he defends throwing black and Latino kids against the wall.

Plus: Why did President Trump go to New Hampshire and tell his supporters to vote for a Democrat in today's primary?

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:52]

BALDWIN: This one's all about Michael Bloomberg.

He may be sitting out the first four primary races, but he is gaining traction in national polling and is in turn coming under increasing scrutiny from his rivals.

A recording from 2015 is resurfacing on social media, where Mike Bloomberg aggressively defends his controversial stop and frisk anti- crime policy while he was mayor of New York.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ninety-five percent of your murders and murderers and murder victims fit one M.O.

You can just take the description, Xerox it, and pass it out to all the cops. They are male minorities 15 to 25.

That is true in New York. It's true in virtually every city. And that's where the real crime is.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Bloomberg's campaign is reiterating his regrets about stop and frisk today.

He said something similar to Christiane Amanpour back in December.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLOOMBERG: It was our policy. In the end, it turned out we were using it too aggressively. And when we cut it back, it didn't have the effect. We thought crime would go up. It didn't. It went down.

And so we reduced it by 95 percent. And I have said I'm sorry. I was wrong, and I'm sorry. After that, I don't know what else to tell you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's talk about it.