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Road Ahead for Democratic Presidential Race?; Trump Thanks DOJ For Intervening in Roger Stone Case. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 12, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And the president is even talking about this right now in the Oval Office as he's welcoming the Ecuadorian leader.

He is defending these tweets, saying that he doesn't believe they were political interference in this, but then he's going back to thanking the Justice Department and those top officials for getting involved in all of this.

And, Brooke, what he's not saying is whether or not he's considering a pardon for his longtime friend Roger Stone, telling reporters just a few moments ago he didn't want to weigh in on that yet, though we will likely hear more about what it is exactly the president said once those reporters leave the room.

But, yes, this is all part of this ongoing situation. This Christie -- or this Jessie Liu part is just one small part of this. And this is really notable, because she is someone who ran the U.S. attorney's office here in Washington. She was nominated for a top job at the Treasury Department.

Her confirmation hearing was going to be in just two days, but last night the White House abruptly pulled that nomination. And I am now being told by sources it is directly tied to the fact that she ran the U.S. attorney's office here, of course, when it was the office that was in charge of the prosecution of Roger Stone.

It also played a role in several of those other major ongoing cases that came out of Robert Mueller's investigation. And that is the reason why President Trump made the ultimate decision to pull her nomination, essentially surprising several Treasury officials, who believed she was on track to be confirmed for that job.

Now, of course, there are questions going forward about who is running that office now. It's currently being run by a close associate of the attorney general's, Tim Shea. That is someone who's now going to be in charge of these cases going forward, as Roger Stone is set to be sentenced next week by this judge that you noted the president is attacking on Twitter and accusing her of bias.

And critics say that they believe he's just trying to intimidate her and get a more lenient sentence for Roger Stone.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: So, Kaitlan, just so we're all clear, the president just said in the Oval Office -- this is apparently just coming in -- he said in the Oval Office he did not ask the Department of Justice to intervene.

But he tweeted publicly.

COLLINS: Right. That has been their party line essentially you're seeing coming out of the White House. They're saying he did not have a direct conversation with the attorney general about this.

But, Brooke, he didn't have to because he tweeted about it multiple times, calling it a disgrace, saying he believed it was unfair. And then, of course, it was just hours later that the Justice Department got involved, overruling their own prosecutors, saying they believe that sentencing recommendation was too lengthy.

And now they're not even really giving a recommendation of a time frame, essentially leaving it up to the judge, so raising a lot of questions about that. But, of course, the ultimate question is going to be whether or not it matters to how much time he's sentenced, depending on whether or not the president pardons him.

He's faced intense lobbying to do so in recent weeks by Stone's allies. And, of course, Brooke, the question is, if the president does decide to pardon him, when does he do it? Does he do it next week after he's been sentenced? Or does he wait until after the election?

Because some people are telling the president that if you do pardon Roger Stone, it's going to be politically harmful for you.

BALDWIN: Yes. Wow, things that perhaps he is weighing, indeed.

Kaitlan, thank you very much.

Let's go straight to Evan Perez. He's our senior Justice correspondent. And he's with me now.

And so you have been reporting about these four prosecutors who abruptly quit just a week out from Stone's sentencing. These are career Justice Department officials who've been working on this case for an entire year, Evan.

So tell me more about them and just the reaction to their just withdrawal inside the department.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Look, I think there's a mix here.

There's a lot of people who are shocked about the events over the last 24 hours, Brooke, the idea that the prosecutors who make a recommendation, and then the Justice Department just undercuts them and disavows essentially everything that they had done.

It just doesn't happen at the Justice Department. At the same time, I think there's a lot of surprise about exactly what went on here. It seems all the stories that are going on behind the scenes, the explanations just aren't adding up.

You have, of course, the idea that the president tweeting, which is not helpful. The tweet, not only the one in the middle of the night that sort of criticizes the prosecutors, but also now thanking Bill Barr and doubling down, saying that he's done the right thing, none of that is helpful for the Justice Department, because even though the president is the boss, there is this idea that the Justice Department is supposed to be run free from politics.

And the president's words are not helping. And, look, behind the scenes, there's a lot of tension going on over not only this case, but also the case of Michael Flynn, the former national security adviser.

If you remember, he is awaiting sentencing. And some prosecutors wanted to go harder on him. They essentially wanted him to go to jail. And in the end, the Justice Department has decided to stick by its original recommendation, which is no jail time for Michael Flynn.

And so what I'm told behind the scenes is that there's been this sort of -- similar to what's happened in the Roger Stone case, there has been a little bit of a dispute over how to handle that.

[15:05:00]

And so you can see now some of these politically charged cases that the president really cares about have become sort of enveloped in politics. And it makes what the Justice Department does that much harder.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

Evan, thank you.

Let's discuss all of this.

I have got John Avlon with me. He is a CNN senior political analyst. And Sarah Coyne is a former assistant U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of New York.

So, welcome to both of you.

And in one of the papers, as I was reading all about this morning, this is the quote that jumped out at me. Former Justice Department official David Laufman tweeted his reaction.

Here's the quote: "A shocking, cram-down political intervention in the criminal justice process. We are now truly at a break glass in case of fire moment for the Department of Justice," Sarah and then John.

SARAH COYNE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's been a remarkable 24 hours, I think, for the Justice Department, Brooke.

The sentencing guidelines are created by a bunch of judges and practitioners to try to come up with a way to sentence criminals for the same conduct committed in the same way around the country to the same type of sentences.

And that comes out into a range. Congress approves that range. And then the government always says, pretty much virtually always, we'd like a sentence within the range, because that keeps it consistent around the country. And also it allows the department to be able to say to any specific defense attorney, hey, you think the sentence is too high? These are the calculations. There's nothing we can do. Take it up with the judge.

Here, what's so remarkable is that you have the department taking the position of the defense attorney, saying, these are too high. My guy doesn't deserve this. We agree that these are -- overstate the seriousness.

And that's not just for this case, but you can bet that every defense attorney going forward is going to say, well, hey, you took that position in the Roger Stone case. Take it here. And it's going to hurt them.

BALDWIN: Meanwhile, before I get your 2 cents, we had someone on last hour saying, in any high-profile case, you would have some of the folks from the U.S. attorney's office having a conversation with DOJ H.Q., that they would have been privy to what that recommendation was.

So, for them to come out and say they were shocked and it was excessive is -- just makes you wonder.

But what do you think, John Avlon?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: This is banana republic- level stuff.

This is a moment where the guardrails seem to be coming off. The Justice Department is based on the idea -- an ideal of impartial justice, justice is blind, that it's done impartially, that certainly partisan calculations don't impact it.

And that's how it keeps our faith. But that's being undermined because Bill Barr seems to be intent to act as the president's personal lawyer.

BALDWIN: Yes.

AVLON: And the president's sending directives and undercutting his own prosecutors and attorneys, and seems to want to surround himself with yes-men, even in the discharge of justice, especially when it concerns prosecutions of his cronies.

This is very serious stuff. And we shouldn't be fooled into thinking it's a new form of normal. It's not. It's a complete assault on basic assumptions of justice and the independence and integrity of our justice system.

BALDWIN: OK.

I have so many more questions for you two. Hang on just a second. We are going to get the tape now from the president's comments from the Oval Office on this whole firestorm.

Let's sneak a quick break in. We will be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:12:26]

BALDWIN: We're back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

This just in: a defense official tells CNN right now that there is -- quote -- "no Army investigation" of Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. Of course, he's the key impeachment witness who was publicly dismissed from his high-level job at the White House this past Friday in what Democrats say was an act of retribution from the president.

And, today, the president had this to say about Colonel Vindman:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And so we sent him on his way to a much different location. And the military can handle him any way they want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Back in November, the secretary of defense, Mark Esper, vowed that there would be -- quote -- "no retaliation" against Vindman.

But we should point out that Secretary Esper's promise did not keep security from escorting Vindman from White House premises Friday.

Retired Brigadier General Peter Zwack served as Vindman's supervisor for two years while they were serving in Russia.

Brigadier General Zwack, an honor to have you back, twice in one week here, sir.

Just, first, your reaction to the president's comment?

BRIG. GEN. PETER ZWACK (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Good afternoon, Brooke.

First, if the president stays on target with the first part of what he said, but, earlier on, he had said that the military will, if you will, take a look at some of the issues, if you will, which (AUDIO GAP) we have a term in the military -- remember, I'm retired, though -- of, if you will, undue command influence, by hint or inference, signaling.

I am very glad that the military has come out with a statement that there will not be an investigation. This issue, this challenge, if you will, is heavily, if you will, litigated inside of Congress.

And I think that Vindman should be able to move on with (AUDIO GAP) life and his career (AUDIO GAP) he wishes.

BALDWIN: One moment, General.

Here is President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Nine years recommended by four people that perhaps they were Mueller people. I don't know who they were, prosecutors.

And they -- I don't know what happened. They all hit the road pretty quickly.

Look, you had somebody just recently -- you saw what happened. He got two months. He got sentenced to two months for leaking classified information at the highest level. They treated Roger Stone very badly.

They treated everybody very badly. And if you look at the Mueller investigation, it was a scam, because it was illegally set up. It was set up based on false documentation and false documents. You look at what happened, how many people were hurt. Their lives were destroyed.

[15:15:05]

And nothing happened with all the people that did it and launched a scam.

Where's Comey? Why -- where is Comey? What's happening to McCabe? What's happening to Lisa and to Peter Strzok, and Lisa Page? What's happening with them? It was a whole setup. It was a disgrace for our country, and everyone knows it, too, everyone, including NBC, which gives a rot of fake news.

The fact is that Roger Stone was treated horribly. And so were many other people. Their lives were destroyed. And it turns out, you look at the FISA warrants and what just happened with FISA, where they found out it was fixed, that it was a dirty, rotten deal.

So when you look at that, and you see what happened to Roger Stone, but think of it. A man leaks classified information, highly classified, they give him two months. Roger Stone, for doing -- nobody even knows what he did. In fact, they said he intimidated somebody. That person said he had no idea he was going to jail for that.

That person didn't want to press charges. They put him in for nine years. It's a disgrace. And, frankly, they ought to apologize to a lot of the people whose lives they have ruined.

All right, next question. Next question.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Go ahead.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

TRUMP: Yes, please, Steve.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Wait, wait, wait. What?

QUESTION: Are you considering a pardon for Roger?

TRUMP: I don't want to say that yet, but I tell you what. People were hurt viciously and badly by these corrupt people.

And I want to thank -- if you look at what happened, I want to thank the Justice Department for seeing this horrible thing. And I didn't speak to them, by the way, just so you understand.

They saw the horribleness of a nine-year sentence for doing nothing. You have murderers and drug addicts, they don't get nine years, nine years for doing something that nobody even can define what he did.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Somebody said he put out a tweet, and the tweet, you based it on that.

We have killers, we have murderers all over the place, nothing happens, and then they put a man in jail and destroy his life, his family, his wife, his children.

Nine years in jail, it's a disgrace.

In the meantime, Comey walks around making book deals, the people that launched the scam investigation, and what they did is a disgrace. And, hopefully, it will be treated fairly. Everything else will be treated fairly.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Go ahead, please.

Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, we're going to pull away, the president of Ecuador sitting with the president of the United States there.

And, you know, he was defending Roger Stone, his good friend, again, saying how badly he was treated. And the key line he keeps saying is that he never talked to the Department of Justice, right, the inference, I never talked to them, I never told them what to do.

But, again, the man has 74 million Twitter followers, and so he said how he feels very publicly.

John Avlon, Sarah Coyne are still with me.

And also, by the way, you know, Roger Stone was convicted of very specific crimes, witness tampering, obstruction.

AVLON: Lying to Congress.

BALDWIN: Lying to Congress.

AVLON: Yes, these are very specific, defined things.

BALDWIN: He was sort of brushing that off.

AVLON: Well, the president may not care about the details.

But there's a pattern of lying and intimidation that he engages in fairly regularly as well. Maybe he doesn't recognize the severity of those accusations.

Look, at the end of the day, this is about the president going to bat for one of his political cronies, and he doesn't have to give a direct order to the Justice Department, to your point. This is basic. If he bellows that this was -- you know, he doesn't want to see this and starts attacking the judge and attacking the prosecutors, if you have an A.G. who starts -- who believes it's a part of his job to advance the president's agenda, he will take the note.

And the reason they hit the road quick, as he said, is because they were so disgusted, apparently, by what -- the Justice Department undercutting their case. That's a protest.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Do you want to add to that?

COYNE: Yes, you know, it's the timing of this, right?

There are, of course, times in the department where management and the line assistant, who's very invested in the case, particularly when they try it, have a different view of what the appropriate sentence should be, and they debate it, but that's behind the scenes.

To come out and file your sentencing submission, to only have it pulled away and a complete 180, that is publicly humiliating for those AUSAs.

BALDWIN: Here's what I want to know, just staying with you, Sarah.

With the Department of Justice under Bill Barr, do they go from sort of being on the defense, right, protecting Trump's allies, to then offense and going after and arresting his enemies? That's what I want to know.

AVLON: Yes.

COYNE: Look, I think that's a big leap from where we are now.

I think the real risk is--

BALDWIN: Did we think we would be where we are now? I have been in this seat a long time.

(CROSSTALK)

COYNE: The credibility now of the department before the bench is really threatened, because now you have judges saying, wait, last night, you sought a guideline sentence. Today, you say that's too high. What's going on? Who's making the decisions there?

[15:20:01]

That's, frankly, a greater cost than this particular case.

AVLON: But, often, what happens internationally is that we see a slide into autocracy that is based not necessarily on persecuting the innocent, but protecting the guilty, and creating an environment where the incentives are all put in place to drive decent people out of politics, because they feel the whole thing is so corrupt and messy, and a kleptocracy emerges, where a person in power's cronies feel like they can get away with almost anything.

That's why impartial justice matters. That's why we don't politicize the Justice Department. And that's what to watch out for right now. That's what this is a harbinger of.

BALDWIN: How about these Republicans?

I want to get your reaction just to the political fallout. And I'm looking down at my notes.

So, Senator Sherrod Brown, Democrat, had some strong words for his colleagues today after several Republicans declared President Trump learned a lesson after being impeached. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D-OH): It's pretty clear the president of the United States did learn a lesson, the lesson he can do whatever he wants -- whatever he wants. He can abuse his office. He will never, ever be held accountable by this Senate.

That was the lesson. We cannot give him a permanent license to turn the presidency and the executive branch into his own personal vengeance operation.

You all know it's happening. Even the senator that just walked out knows that it's happening.

So, if we say nothing, it will all -- it will get worse. His behavior will get worse. The retribution tour will continue. We all know that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The retribution tour will continue.

John Thune, Republican senator, this is what he said, a member of leadership, tells CNN -- quote -- "I think it's always best to allow the legal system in this country to work the way it was intended. We will see what happens."

I guess I'm wondering, like, when will the other Republicans, a la Mitt Romney, as you and I were talking about him a week ago today, hold the president accountable?

AVLON: Don't hold your breath, because we haven't seen a lot of profiles in courage.

That's one of the reasons Mitt Romney's speech stood out so much. It's been one week since the president was acquitted, and look at all the vengeance he has undertaken. Look at how he's tried to show that anyone who had naively thought that he would be restrained by being impeached and acquitted, that's not an operative.

What's happening is and what Sherrod Brown just referred to there is, there's an atmosphere of fear that has even reached inside the Senate, where people will say one thing in private, but be afraid to say it out loud in public.

That's not the full exercise of freedom. That's not what the founders wanted senators to do. Independence and integrity is essential. That is being undermined. We need senators to stand up and call out when something is right.

But, instead, they're thinking in terms of partisanship, and it's a narcotic, and it's dulling their senses, and it's dangerous for the republic.

BALDWIN: John Avlon, Sarah Coyne, thank you both very, very much.

Now to New Hampshire. Democratic voter turnout in New Hampshire is on track to hit a record. And despite Senator Sanders finishing first, a majority voted for more moderate candidates.

So we will talk about how this party divide could determine who gets the nomination.

And former House Speaker Paul Ryan says Joe Biden is the best bet Democrats have to beat President Trump. Hear him explain why coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:04]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hello, America. I'm Amy Klobuchar, and I will beat Donald Trump.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're feeling great. We think we're on a path to victory, we will win the nomination. And I think we're going to beat Donald Trump big time.

PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Just as we came from zero to top two finishes in the first two states, we believe we will be able to develop, build and grow a fantastic base of support in states like Nevada and South Carolina. And, of course, Super Tuesday is not far behind.

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're talking about 2 percent of delegates. They're good people, a lot of good friends, but they are not -- that's not the beginning.

That's just the first -- not just the first inning, the first batter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: New Hampshire, check. Senator Bernie Sanders and Pete Buttigieg continue to lead the Democratic field following the nation's second primary.

But 48 states are still to go, plus D.C. and U.S. territories, meaning there is a lot of room for change.

So, while Sanders and Buttigieg are hoping for more of the same, others like Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren are betting on some dramatic shifts, and they may get it as we move on to more diverse states. Remember, both Iowa and New Hampshire voters are more than 90 percent white.

Tom Foreman has been mapping the road ahead.

And, Tom, how does it look?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It looks long, Brooke.

Honestly, to look at these two tiny contests here and say that this is a big determinant is like watching a guy who jumps out for the first 100 yards of a marathon and saying, oh, he's leading. There's a lot to go here.

Look, this month alone, we're going to have Nevada, South Carolina both come weighing in there. Yes, everyone's looking at the tea leaves here, saying, what does this amount to? And, yes, you would benefit by carrying some kind of momentum out of this.

But look at March. Now you're talking about a lot of states, Super Tuesday, 14 states, the next Tuesday, a pile of six states over here, and then on and on, we go here.

These really started mounting then. This month is when about half the delegates will be sorted out in the party. Then you will have a real sense of where everyone stands.

Look at the numbers right now.