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Rep. Steve Cohen (D-TN) is Interviews about Barr Testifying before House; Limbaugh Comments on Buttigieg; Repealing Trump's Travel Ban. Aired 9:30-10a
Aired February 13, 2020 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:30:00]
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: You brought a bucket of chicken to make a point.
REP. STEVE COHEN (D-TN): Yes.
HARLOW: Sounds like Bill Barr is going to show up to testify at the end of March.
What's your most pressing question or him as we sit here today?
COHEN: Well, the most pressing question is going to be what he's done with President Trump to change the plea agreement, the -- not the plea agreement but the suggestion on a term for Roger Stone and what else has he done to influence maybe Michael Flynn's sentencing and other prosecutions in the removing of prosecutors from cases, the removing of Ms. Liu from being the U.S. attorney in the District of Columbia. Just the actions he's taken that has politicized the court.
And, again, you say he's going to come -- we thought he was going to come last time.
HARLOW: Yes. No, I get that.
COHEN: He --
HARLOW: We'll see.
COHEN: George Jones has a better record for showing up.
HARLOW: All right, we'll see.
So let's go back to January 15, 2009. This is during his confirmation hearing before the Senate. He said this.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL (January 15, 2019): I feel I'm in a position in life where I can do the right thing and not really care about the consequences in the sense that I don't -- I can truly be independent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: That was in reaction to some of the previous memos that he'd written, et cetera, that came under scrutiny during his confirmation process. What's your reaction to that now?
COHEN: Well, I thought it was wrong when he said it. You have to understand what he thinks is right. And I think he expressed what he thought was right at Notre Dame. And there were some very right wing theories, some very unusual theories and suggestions he was probably from the same group, which I always thought he was, that gave Trump nominees for the court.
And he was being put in by that same group to make sure that Trump was there to deliver on more nominees like that to the court, which questions people's freedom of religion, questions certain standards of the court on cases that have been around for years and give people individual liberties and individual rights. You know, Barr has made clear that this is his opportunity to make an impact, and I think the people didn't understand just how far right wing he was, and he'd make Cohen look like a saint.
HARLOW: Do you think he lied then under oath? Do you think he perjure himself? Is that what you're saying?
COHEN: No, I'm not saying that. It just depends how you interpret what he thinks was right and said I'm going to do what's right and I'm not worried about anything else.
HARLOW: OK. So -- so on the issue of impeachment, OK, because I think it -- people should know, it's notable that you came out in favor of impeaching the president a long time ago, you know, back in the spring of 2017. That was actually before the conclusion of the Mueller investigation. Certainly even before the Ukraine call.
Do you believe that these actions by the president in the last week are impeachable offenses and that you believe Congress should move once again to impeach the president?
COHEN: I think that impeachment has been done. I don't think that Speaker Pelosi and I don't think the American people want to go through another impeachment.
HARLOW: OK.
COHEN: I think we know that the jury's rigged and no matter what we had, if he shot the man on Fifth Avenue, no matter what he did, you might get Mitt Romney, and that would be the only senator from the Republican side you'd get.
HARLOW: Well, you know it's interesting you bring up Mitt Romney. You're right, he -- not only is he the only Republican who voted to convict the president on one of the counts, he's the only, you know, person ever from a party to convict their own party's president in an impeachment proceeding. But listen to this from your colleague in the other chamber, Senator
Lisa Murkowski, just yesterday.
Here she was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the president learn any lessons from being impeached?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you concerned that he learned the opposite lesson?
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): Well, there haven't been very strong indications this week that he has.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: It's hard to hear, but those words matter. She said, there haven't been any strong indicators this week that he has. That he has learned anything. You say impeachment's out the door now. So now what with some Republicans feeling the way she does?
COHEN: Well, Lisa Murkowski's got a mixed record and she's had some good votes where she stood up to Trump. She didn't do it in the impeachment trial. And so she needs to say that. And she's right.
But the fact is, Trump has not learned a lesson from anything in life. Obviously military school didn't do him any good and he's been a man that has not listened to any statute, any rules of contract, any material vows, any constitutional prohibitions his entire life. He is uncontrollable. He is lawless. He is reckless. This is nothing new. This -- there's -- probably the reason why he went to military school in the first place, this conduct, the child is father to the man and you're seeing the child.
HARLOW: Final -- I have 30 seconds left, but I do want to get to the move.
You voted in favor of this legislation to try to ban the president's expansion of the travel ban.
[09:35:02]
It's not likely to succeed, obviously, in a Republican-controlled Senate. But your fellow member of the House, Doug Collins, a ranking member on the committee, says that this bill effectively eviscerates the ability of the administration to take quick and decisive action to protect the homeland.
What do you say to him?
COHEN: He's running for the United States Senate. He wants to have President Trump's support. And it's obvious that he continues to support President Trump in every way he can. The fact is, my relatives came here from eastern Europe. Many of us
had relatives who emigrated. We're a nation of immigrants. We should not close our doors to immigrants in a blanket way from in -- all these countries. This is a Muslim ban which the president's been in favor of for years.
HARLOW: Congressman Steve Cohen, appreciate your time. Come back soon.
COHEN: You're welcome, Poppy. You're welcome. Thank you.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: He was just awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Now Rush Limbaugh is going after, in vulgar terms, Pete Buttigieg for being gay.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:40:19]
SCIUTTO: Just one week after President Trump awarded conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh the Presidential Medal of Freedom, one of the highest civilian awards in the United States, Limbaugh has carried out an attack on Democratic Presidential Candidate Pete Buttigieg simply for being gay.
Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO HOST: They're sitting there and they're looking at Mayor Pete. Thirty-seven-year-old gay guy, mayor of South Bend, loves to kiss his husband on the debate stage. And they're saying, OK, how is this going to look, 37-year-old gay guy kissing his husband on stage next to Mr. Man Donald Trump. What's going to happen there?
And they got to be looking at that, and they've got to be saying, that despite all the great progress and despite all the great wokeness, and despite all the great ground that's been covered, America still not ready to elect a gay guy kissing his husband on the debate stage president. They have to be saying this, don't they?
Now, there may be some Democrats who think that is the ticket. There may be some Democrats who think that's exactly what we need to do, Rush. Get a gay guy kissing his husband on stage, ram it down Trump's throat, and beat him in the general election. Really. Having fun envisioning that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Important to play it all there.
Ben Ferguson is with us, CNN political commentator, conservative radio host.
You know, Ben, I -- your reaction?
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I don't think it matters that he's gay. I think that the -- the thing that you're talking about here is two different issues.
One, is anybody going to look masculine next to Donald Trump on stage? I think the only Democrat out there would be Joe Biden. Do I think it should matter on the issue of his sexuality? No.
Now, I do think, and I've talked about this on my radio show literally yesterday, with only Democrats calling in, does it matter that he is an openly gay man? There was a surprising number of Democratic voters that said that it was an issue for them, the same way we saw that lady try to take back her vote in Iowa after she had voted and found out that Mayor Pete was gay.
Now, for me personally, I have no problem with him being a gay man. I can debate him on the issues. It has nothing to do with sexuality.
And the reality here I think is what Limbaugh was talking about, and, again, the way he said it is different than I would obviously say it. He's saying, there are Democrats that are sitting there worried that this is going to be a bigger issue, just like we saw in California when gay marriage was overturned by voters in a liberal state.
SCIUTTO: OK. Take a moment -- take a moment there.
FERGUSON: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Let me just take issue with your premise. What's more manly, volunteering for military service, as Pete Buttigieg did, or avoiding it?
FERGUSON: Look, I'm talking about appearance here. I was with the president last week in the Oval, and I promise you, he looked more masculine next to me than I did. And I consider myself to be a pretty masculine guy. We're talking about appearance here. We're not talking about what's on your resume.
SCIUTTO: What about the substance, though? What about the substance? What about the substance?
FERGUSON: The substance in what category do you mean by substance? You're saying -- do you -- I mean I'll ask you the question --
SCIUTTO: I'm saying you said the president appears more manly for, I don't know what reason. I mean and I'm citing a --
FERGUSON: I did --
SCIUTTO: I'm citing an issue of the record here, Buttigieg volunteered for military service. The president took great pains to avoid it. I'm talking about the substance. Which is more manly?
FERGUSON: Look, I think serving your country is something that's a great thing and I think that that is something that Mayor Pete is going to be able to use to his advantage. And I think it's how he's going to be able to challenge the president if he gets the nomination on. But if you asked 100 Democratic voters which candidate looked more masculine, Joe Biden or Mayor Pete, I think they would probably say Joe Biden. I mean we've got to be -- let's be honest about this.
HARLOW: Can I -- can I just turn -- Ben -- can I please -- Ben, please, can I turn the conversation to -- I don't understand in what world is the definition of qualification for being president of the United States how manly someone appears.
SCIUTTO: There's also that.
FERGUSON: I didn't say it was a -- I did not say it was a qualification. But going back to what Limbaugh was talking about, when you put two different candidates on stage and there are people that make millions of dollars on both sides of the aisle that talk about what you wear for goodness sakes. Men and women, what you say, how you talk, how you laugh.
HARLOW: Well, we don't. We don't.
FERGUSON: No, I'm talking about political campaign operatives, OK? I'm talking about people that are working for presidential campaigns for governor campaigns, you look at every aspect of your candidate and then you try to make them turn into something that is perfect for the voters' palate.
We've been doing this for decades. And I think the point that Limbaugh was making was, is you have a president, OK, regardless of -- go back to military service, that is a very masculine guy. You have Mayor Pete that comes across much more like an academic.
SCIUTTO: Claims to be.
HARLOW: I think --
[09:45:00]
FERGUSON: A very, very smart academic. You put Joe Biden on stage next to the president it's (INAUDIBLE).
SCIUTTO: Yes. I just --
FERGUSON: I think the masculinity issue goes away.
SCIUTTO: Ben, I've known you a long time. I -- listen --
FERGUSON: Sure.
SCIUTTO: It seems to me you're justifying bigotry here.
FERGUSON: Not at all.
SCIUTTO: Are you not?
FERGUSON: No --
SCIUTTO: Because -- because here's the thing, people, you know -- you know, consultants might have said it -- you know, it's -- it's a negative to be a person of color. You might have heard that. This is -- well, this is the year 2020.
FERGUSON: Or -- or it could be a huge --
SCIUTTO: I'm curious what you're justifying here.
FERGUSON: Or it could be a huge asset, like it was for Barack Obama. I -- what I'm saying is, and we have to be honest about campaigns here. There are certain things that play to certain people. A great example is what you brought up with military service for Mayor Pete. That is going to play huge to them.
HARLOW: OK.
FERGUSON: If you're a political advocate, if you're a political person working for him, you're going to say, you've got to talk about that more. That's going to play very well with the American people.
HARLOW: Ben, we -- we have to go. We'll keep talking about it. We're waiting to see if the president responds to this at all.
I just think to -- it's important to quote the president in May when asked about this on Fox News. He said about Mayor Buttigieg's sexuality, I think something -- people will have a problem with it, but I have no problem with it whatsoever. I think it's good.
FERGUSON: Yes.
HARLOW: So the question is going to become, does he change? Does that change?
Ben, thank you.
FERGUSON: I don't think he will.
HARLOW: Thank you, Ben.
SCIUTTO: We'll see.
FERGUSON: Thanks.
SCIUTTO: The president has changed positions before.
Ben Ferguson, thanks very much.
House lawmakers just took the first step to stop President Trump from expanding his travel ban. We're going to break down the details because there's something in the latest iteration of this that's disturbing.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:51:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. This is a story you might have missed. The House is preparing to vote
on a bill that would repeal President Trump's latest expansion of travel restrictions and rein in presidential authority on suspending entry in the U.S. for certain categories of people. This after the Trump administration added Nigeria, Eritrea, Tanzania, Sudan, Kyrgyzstan and Myanmar to its controversial travel ban.
Joining us now, Todd Schulte, he's an immigration and criminal justice reform activist.
Todd, good morning. Good to have you on this morning.
Help explain to our viewer what's different about this expansion of the travel ban, because what's particular here is going after not visitor visas, but really immigration. It seems that it seeks to reduce legal immigration from these countries.
Explain how that works.
TODD SCHULTE, IMMIGRATION AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM ACTIVIST: I think that's really important to bring up. And to go back for a little bit of context in 2015, the president called for a full and complete shutdown on Muslim immigration. And in 2017, they put in place these travel bans that banned both immigrant visas and non-immigrant visas. So an immigrant visa is how you come here. You get a green card. You eventually become a citizen.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SCHULTE: Non-immigrant visas, a tourist visa, a guest worker visa, something temporary. What happened this time is it's expanded to these countries. About 300 million people, 95 percent of the folks are in Africa. They have said, you can come here on a tourist visa, you can come here on a guest worker visa, but you can't come here on an immigrant visa.
You know, that's kind of immigration longhand for, you can come and visit, but you can't start the process to become an American. And that is a really dangerous precedent that harkens back to some of the worst moments in our country's immigration history.
SCIUTTO: Yes. And does that undermine the security argument here? Because presumably if you're trying to stop, say, terror threats, you would go after the visitor visas, not the people who take many years to apply for citizenship.
SCHULTE: That's absolutely right. There's two things really undermine the security threat here. The first is, they actually announced they were going to do this three years to the day of the anniversary for political reasons. If this was a real security threat, they would have done it.
And I want to be clear, we're not in favor of the original bans here, but these bans that they put in place here are about people who are coming here over years as a much higher vetting threshold. And if actually if you look historically of the, you know, millions of people who have come over the last couple decades from Nigeria, there's been one person who's been charge as the underwear bomber.
SCIUTTO: Right.
SCHULTE: That person came on a tourist visa. That's not the visa that we're talking about here.
This is about stopping people from Nigeria, and other countries, from becoming Americans and starting that process.
SCIUTTO: OK.
Let's talk about the motivation behind this because, as you note, 95 percent of the people covered by this are from Africa, Nigeria, the most populist African country. Is race a factor here?
SCHULTE: I think if you look at what the president has said, and I'm not going to repeat it on air, but about certain countries --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SCHULTE: Going back to when he spiked a dreamer deal, comments he's made about the diversity visa, comments he has made about Haitian immigrants, Nigeria is the largest country -- largest number of black people in the world live in that country.
And if you go back and look what he said, and this is kind of overlapping a little bit here, again, the president said a lot of things during the campaign. And, unfortunately, kind of the wall has become a little bit of a punchline when it was really about the sentiment. The president was incredibly clear on what he said about Muslims and Muslim immigration coming to this country. And I think the president has been really clear about what he said from people coming from Africa as well.
SCIUTTO: Is this just in short form about restricting legal immigration as opposed to illegal immigration, because Steve Miller, for instance, the president's adviser, the driving force behind this, has been very public in his own comments supporting restrictions on legal immigration as well.
SCHULTE: We think the biggest story of the Trump administration on immigration has been an all-out assault on legal immigration avenues across the board. And whether that's the refugee system, which has been cut by 95 percent, whether it's high-skilled immigration has become more challenging, whether it's eliminating the asylum system at the border, whether it's trying to cut the family based immigration system by 80 percent through Congress, across the board every single legal immigration category is getting harder.
[09:55:10]
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SCHULTE: There's, you know, hundreds and hundreds of changes to the legal immigration system. So far we've found two that might make immigration easier. SCIUTTO: Yes. And it's already shown up in the numbers.
SCHULTE: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Tod Schulte, thanks very much.
SCHULTE: Thank you.
HARLOW: It is for sure.
All right, (INAUDIBLE) speaking out against the president, his former boss, on so much, including on the president's behavior and actions toward Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. Stay with us for that.
And the world has watched their every move. Now CNN presents the story of the world's most famous royal family. This is Jim's obsession. "The Windsor's: Inside the Royal Dynasty." It premieres this Sunday night 10:00 Eastern --
SCIUTTO: Said pot to kettle.
HARLOW: Right here on CNN.
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