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John Kelly Says, Vindman Heard Illegal Order On Trump-Ukraine Call; Sources Say, More DOJ Resignations Possible In Coming Days; Democratic Race Shifts To Nevada And South Carolina. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired February 13, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: A very good Thursday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Poppy Harlow.

Listen to these words from a man who knows orders, retired Marine General John Kelly. He says the president gave a, quote, illegal order when demanding that Ukraine investigate the Bidens. Now, the former White House chief of staff is unloading on his former boss, defending Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman and his decision to report that controversial phone call in the first place.

Vindman, you'll remember, was targeted by the president and then removed from his role at the White House.

SCIUTTO: The only White House response so far that's come from Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham, she's told Fox News this morning she was, quote, disappointed by Kelly's speech.

Also this morning, sources tell CNN that more resignations could be coming at the Justice Department, this a reaction to the attorney general intervening to reduce a sentencing recommendation by the Justice Department's own lawyers following sentencing guidelines for the president's longtime ally, Roger Stone.

Let's begin at the White House with John Harwood with more on Kelly's stunning comments here. As chief of staff, Kelly often held his fire. Here, you have remarkable comments, not just from the former chief of staff, but a former and decorated Marine general.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Jim, I think General Kelly felt while he was in the White House that he was going to try to constrain the president's behavior, had limited success in doing that, now he's beginning to open up a little bit more. It's been a while since he left the White House to do that. And other officials in similar roles, Jim Mattis, the former defense secretary, have not really opened up. But on a range of issues, from the president's intervention and the court-martial case of Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher, to his remarks on the press, to his actions with respect to Alexander Vindman, he did unload. Here is the money quote on Alexander Vindman. He said -- John Kelly said, Vindman did exactly what we teach them to do from cradle to grave in the military. We teach them don't follow an illegal order. And if you're ever given one, you raise it to whoever gives it to you, tell them this is an illegal order and then tell your boss. That's what Alexander Vindman did. That's what others within the government did.

As you mentioned, Stephanie Grisham, the White House press secretary, went on Fox, which is usually the only network she appears on, and said that this was disappointing, she said that some of John Kelly's remarks were disingenuous because she heard him say different things behind the scenes, and that's really where we are. The question is going to be what do Republicans and in particular in the Senate do to step up and constrain the president's behavior, because they haven't been willing to so far.

SCIUTTO: We don't know. John Harwood at the White House, thank you.

Let's speak now to CNN National Security Correspondent Kylie Atwood. Kylie, it's not just Ukraine General Kelly was talking about, and beyond Gallagher, as John was referencing there, but also President Trump's diplomatic efforts with North Korea.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. So General Kelly offered some criticism of President Trump essentially ever thinking that he would have been able to strike a deal with Kim Jong-un to denuclearize North Korea.

Now, this is important given the fact that General Kelly was the chief of staff to President Trump for both of the summits that he had with Kim Jong-un. And I want to read to you what Kelly said in his remarks last night. He said, quote, he will never give his nuclear weapons up. Obviously, they are referring to Kim Jong-un. He said, quote, again, President Trump tried, that's one way to put it, but it didn't work. I'm an optimist most of the time, but I'm also a realist. And I never did think Kim would do anything other than play us for a while and he did that fairly effectively, also, casting doubt there on the idea that President Trump, as the president, will ever be able to encourage Kim Jong-un to denuclearize.

HARLOW: I mean, John Kelly just said Kim Jong-un played the president. So just stick with that for a minute. But also this, Kylie, if you can get to it, the former U.S. ambassador to the Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, has now made her first comments since leaving State. What did she say?

ATWOOD: Yes. So Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch spoke last night at Georgetown here in Washington, D.C. And she offered a defense of diplomacy, saying it is one of the most effective tools of the U.S. government, and she essentially also said that she was worried about the State Department being in decline. Now, obviously, that's noteworthy because she is one of the officials who was kicked out due to the fact that there was a pressure campaign against her that was orchestrated by allies of President Trump. And I want you guys to listen to a little bit of what she said on the State Department.

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MARIE YOVANOVITCH, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: The State Department is in trouble. Senior leaders lack policy vision, moral clarity and leadership skills. The policy process has been replaced by decisions emanating from the top with little discussion. Vacancies at all levels go unfilled and officers are increasingly wondering whether it is safe to express concerns about policy even behind closed doors.

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ATWOOD: Now, Ambassador Yovanovitch also said that the fact that diplomats work off of facts shows that they are a committed state, not a deep state, as President Trump has often referenced State Department employees.

HARLOW: Important voices to hear now speaking publicly and both of them about this for the first time, really. Kylie, thank you.

Joining us now to talk about it, CNN National Security Analyst Mark Mazzetti, Washington Investigative Correspondent for The Times, and CNN Military and Diplomatic Analyst, Retired Rear Admiral John Kirby. Thank you, gentlemen, both for being here very much.

Mark, let me just, I guess, begin with you, in terms of who John Kelly is. We were looking up what the president said about him in the past and there is like literally nothing negative, calling him one of the finest people I know, doing a great job, et cetera. This is no, you know, Democrat, this is no Mitt Romney, so it's hard to dismiss, no?

MARK MAZZETTI, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Right. I mean, there is no question about General Kelly's service, his record in military nearly impeccable. And what I think is most striking to me about the comments is I believe it's really the first time you heard any of the former senior generals who worked for President Trump, whether it's Kelly, H.R. McMaster or Jim Mattis, really attack and criticize the president directly.

You saw some tepid criticism from Mattis. But this is really the first time where Kelly is directly not only challenging policy but the treatment of people in the military, and the questions, of course, what set him off. And it seems at least what was really animating him was the treatment of Colonel Vindman, even with the president suggesting that he should be disciplined by the military for his actions with the Ukraine matter.

SCIUTTO: Of course, John Kelly is also a gold star father. He lost his son in action. Rear Admiral John Kirby, I want to ask you, because you have the advantage here of being someone who served in the military, what did your superior officers tell you and what did you tell those who served under you to do and how to react if they saw something that in their view was illegal?

JOHN KIRBY, CNN MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC ANALYST: It was always clear to me, even when I was an ensign aboard small warship in the Persian Gulf back in the late '80s, that I was responsible -- it was expected of me to speak truth to power. And to speak up when I saw something going awry, either an order given that I thought would put the ship in danger or a policy direction that leaders in the Pentagon were giving me that I thought would go awry as well. It was expected of you to speak up.

And I tried, I can't claim to be a perfect leader in my own right, but I think I tried to express that to subordinates that work for me, that I wanted them to be honest with me, come to me, be as brutal as they could be if they thought that I was making a decision or moving in a direction that was unsafe or harmful to national security.

SCIUTTO: Yes, truly definitive.

HARLOW: We also heard Kelly's comments that are notable because they're about the military discipline and then reversal of that of Eddie Gallagher, of course. This is what he said overnight, quote, the idea that the commander-in-chief intervened there, in my opinion, was exactly the wrong thing to do. Kelly said, had I been there, I could have prevented it.

It just reminds me, I guess, Mark, that there aren't John Kellys in the room anymore.

MAZZETTI: That's right. And, I mean, of course, you know, there will be questions raised about why General Kelly comes out now, right? What is the timing, you know, if he was going to speak on the Gallagher matter, he was going to speak about Colonel Vindman. Colonel Vindman has been under attack for some months. And so the question is why does he do ot after, of course, the impeachment vote. But that's not -- that's for him to answer.

And he's very clear in his criticism on these military matters that he disagreed with how the president, you know, in the Gallagher case, intervened directly in an issue of military justice, which we have seen senior SEAL and Navy leadership disagree with the president as well.

SCIUTTO: All right. So we talked about the function of the White House, how military commanders respond orders to this president. Let's talk just a moment, Admiral Kirby, about the State Department. You heard Marie Yovanovitch there describing a state department getting hollowed out, its leadership lacking moral clarity. That's an alarming criticism from a long-serving member of the State Department where it stands. What's your view having served in the State Department yourself? KIRBY: I'll tell you a couple of things. First of all, I picked up on that moral clarity comment too, that struck me as the most stark thing she said, because the other thing is about poor leadership, no guidance, no vision, I mean, we've kind of heard that before.

The second thing, Jim, is everything that I heard her say yesterday sort of matches perfectly with what I'm hearing from former colleagues at the State Department that I stay in touch with, largely foreign service officers who are out and about around the world.

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And they don't feel like they have the support from Washington, D.C., more critically, they don't feel like they're getting the policy guidance, cohesive policy that they can speak to and argue and articulate overseas. They feel like they're adrift and that's unfortunate.

HARLOW: I just don't wanted to get lost in this situation, what Kylie Atwood just reported, Mark, the fact that John Kelly said in so many words that the president got played by Kim Jong-un.

MAZZETTI: That's right. And as she pointed out, I mean, John Kelly was intimately involved in North Korea policymaking during this period of time with these summits. And it is something that the president is proud about of his meetings with Kim Jong-un. And General Kelly saying, you know, in essence, he did get played, that Kim Jong-un was never going it denuclearize, he wants to have the meetings with the president of the United States but with no real effect. And the question is whether they gave Kim Jong-un too much in having these meetings without getting anything in return.

SCIUTTO: And perhaps some realization of that from the president, while reporting a couple of days ago, the president does not want to meet with him again before the election, understanding that that might be politically damaging.

Mark Mazzetti , Rear Admiral John Kirby, thanks to both of you.

MAZZETTI: Thank you.

KIRBY: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: After the unprecedented walkout of four U.S. attorneys handling the Roger Stone case, CNN has learned that more career prosecutors could soon follow suit. Ahead, much more on the tensions within the Justice Department.

HARLOW: Plus, the president escalating his attacks on former New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg. The Question is why is the president zeroing in on this candidate? Meaning, does he think it's going to be two New York Rich white guys against one another? We'll see.

And soon, the Senate is expected to vote on a resolution that would limit the president's ability to take military action against Iran. We'll talk about what the war powers vote actually means. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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SCIUTTO: This just in to CNN. We've been tracking this closely. The 15th case of coronavirus has now been confirmed here in the U.S. The patient among a group of people under federal quarantine order now At San Antonio's Lackland Air Force Base in Texas. This comes as a top CDC official warns the virus could gain a foothold in the U.S. That would be disturbing. But, again, numbers still low but they're going up and we're watching.

HARLOW: Very closely. This after a record one-day spike in the number of deaths from coronavirus, nearly 250 deaths were reported yesterday alone along with an additional 15,000 cases in China. When you look at the globe around the world, more than 60,000 people infected, 1,300 have died so far from this virus.

SCIUTTO: The internal fallout intensifying following the Justice Department's decision to overrule its own prosecutors sentencing recommendation for longtime Trump ally, Roger Stone. Four federal prosecutors walked out on the case after top DOJ officials intervened. Now, sources tell CNN that more could follow them resign in the coming days.

CNN Senior Justice Correspondent Evan Perez joins us now. Tell us what the attorney general's role has been in all of this, because he, as you well know, has been activist in cases before.

EVAN PEREZ, SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right, Jim. Look, he's got a reputation as a micromanager. He gets involved in things big and small across the department. And this is one of those times where you see that at work. And I think that's one of the issues for prosecutors in the U.S. Attorney's Office here in Washington, who some of them are telling colleagues that they're looking to make an exit simply because they're concerned about the appearance that there is political interference in the work that they are doing.

And, look, there is a lot of cases that are being done across the Justice Department that have sort of a political implications, right, for the president and he's tweeting about all of them. I'll go through just a few of them. The sentencing of Michael Flynn, the former national security adviser who's pleaded guilty and so since then has sort of portrayed himself as some sort of victim of prosecutors.

We have an investigation in New York of Rudy Giuliani, the president's personal attorney. That case, obviously, is very, very hot button. There is also the investigation of Erik Prince, the former Blackwater founder, who is the brother of one of the cabinet members. Again, that's an investigation being handled here out of Washington. And, of course, there's also the investigation into Andrew McCabe, the former deputy director of the FBI.

So there's a lot going on that causes people to worry about whether or not they're going to be politically interfered with. SCIUTTO: Yes. The scope is just interesting there. David Gergen said in our broadcast yesterday, in a way, bigger than Watergate because Watergate was about one issue and then the question here is interference in multiple cases. Evan Perez, we know you're going to stay on top of the story. Thanks very much.

HARLOW: So let's talk about all of this with former FBI Acting Director Andy McCabe. Good to have you, Mr. Director. Let's just begin with what former U.S. Attorney Andy McCarthy writers about all of this in the National Review.

He talked about the Stone original sentencing guidelines, though by the book, would have been seen harsh by most if this were not a person as well known as Roger stone, meaning, yes, he committed the crimes but he's an aging first offender with no organized crime or gang connections. I'm going to get to that full screen in a minute.

But just on that issue, he called the revised recommendation, which is a lot less, reasonable but the process at arriving at it a train wreck.

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Do you agree with him?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think that's a good summary. I mean, you know, reasonable people can have spirited disagreements about the range of -- the sentence range called for under the guidelines. I think the range that was proposed was certainly at the high end of that guideline. That's something that caught many people's attention for the reasons you mentioned.

However, I would say the other side of the argument is that Mr. Stone was convicted by a jury at trial of seven very serious offenses including witness intimidation, which allegedly involved the threat to kill a witness. And we could argue about whether how serious that was or not. But these are all things ultimately, Poppy, for the judge to decide. It is the prosecutor's responsibility to calculate the guidelines, to the best of their ability and present that recommendation.

HARLOW: That's true. But it obviously infuriated the prosecutor so much in the case that they walked away from this case.

Let me get you to weigh in on what McCarthy says at the end of the piece. Quote, if the ongoing criminal probe of the Russia investigation eventually yields any indictments, they will be assailed as political persecutions rather than good faith law enforcement. Is that the danger here when we look big picture, Andy, that it's not just the case but that everyone after it will subsequently be questioned?

MCCABE: Absolutely, that's the danger here. So in addition to the very real concerns about whether or not the president is weighing in to achieve, you know, more leniency for one of his friends, in the same conversation he had in the Oval Office yesterday, where he commented on this to reporters, he also called for the investigation and essentially jailing of Jim Comey and myself. So this is a danger that goes in both directions. It is -- we now have a president who is actively interfering with the administration of criminal justice both to benefit his friends and to potentially punish his enemies, and that is a very dangerous place for any democracy to be.

HARLOW: So the good news is maybe there will be some answers. And I say maybe, because the last time Bill Barr was called to testify, he didn't come. But there is an agreement that he's supposed to come testify before the House Judiciary Committee on March 31st. What kind of answers are you looking for from the attorney general there?

MCCABE: Well, as we know from his prior appearances, the attorney general is pretty deft at avoiding giving direct answers to questions that he finds uncomfortable. I'm sure we'll see a bit more of that. But I would like to see him asked very directly about his own involvement in this process, about the president or anyone else's involvement in the Stone case, and not just direct involvement, but about their awareness of and their cognizance of the president's tweets, because we all know that the president communicates very effectively to the nation and to his subordinates through the messages he puts out on Twitter.

HARLOW: Yes. Well, we have also been told they are official White House statements.

MCCABE: That's right.

HARLOW: So there is that. Former Deputy Director Andy McCabe, thank you.

MCCABE: Thanks, Poppy.

SCIUTTO: This just in to CNN, a familiar face is coming back to the White House, Hope Hicks, the return of the former communications director has been in discussion for some time, though it was unclear initially if she would come back before the election. According to White House officials, she will not be a part of the Communications Department, instead she will be working closely with Jared Kushner in, quote, a number of strategic areas.

Well, President Trump is lashing out on Twitter at one 2020 presidential candidate, in particular this morning, and at someone who is not even competing in first four primary states. Why as he attracted the president's attention?

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HARLOW: Today, 2020 candidates are spread out across the country, looking to woo voters particularly in Nevada and South Carolina. And yet this morning, the president is aiming his attacks at someone who is not even playing ball there, Michael Bloomberg, lashing out at the former New York City mayor with Tweets this morning. SCIUTTO: Bloomberg couldn't take long to respond in kind, attacking the president over his failed investments and his reputation in New York, talking about how people talk about him behind his back here.

Joining us now is CNN's Senior Political Writer and Analyst, Harry Enten. So, Harry, President Trump doesn't see Bloomberg as a threat. I mean, he's got a funny way of showing it. He's often transparent and you can tell where he thinks the threat is coming from.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER AND ANALYST: Yes, exactly. I mean, take a look at the national polls that we've seen so far over the last few months from Bloomberg got on the race, and what do we see? We see his numbers rising. He started just 3 percent back in November, then rose to 9 percent just ten days ago, and now, since the Iowa results, look, he was the one who actually seemed to be the beneficiary of the Iowa result. He's up to 14 percent in the polls. He's clearly climbing.

And what is the reason he may be climbing? Look at all this money that he's spending. Oh, my goodness gracious. He spent $129 million, oh, my God.

SCIUTTO: That's just Super Tuesday states.

ENTEN: Just in the Super Tuesday states. Most of those guys haven't spent a dime. Even Sanders has only spent $7 million, no wonder he's rising in the polls.

HARLOW: Well, you got $60 billion.

ENTEN: I wish I had $60 billion. I failed.

HARLOW: It was a few hundred million.

SCIUTTO: Your mom --

ENTEN: My mom is very --

SCIUTTO: Your mom, she's shaking her head at home right now.

ENTEN: She's very disappointed.

HARLOW: Can you -- I geeked out on your piece last night, because this sort of all plays into the bigger question about a contested -- potentially contested convention.

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