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Rush Limbaugh's Homophobic Rant Against Pete Buttigieg; Trump's Assault on American Justice. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 13, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: President Trump may be singing the praises of Attorney General Bill Barr after Barr and the Department of Justice's leadership intervened in the case involving Trump's ally and adviser Roger Stone.

But, inside the agency, the rank and file reportedly feel under pressure, amid fears that the DOJ's independence could take a backseat to political influence.

This is according to "The New York Times," which spoke with career attorneys across the country.

So, let's start with Sara Murray. She's in Washington.

And that stunning news is coming as CNN, Sara, has learned that there could be more resignations in the department after this whole Stone controversy. So, tell me more about that.

SARA MURRAY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

You know, Brooke, I think when you look at our colleagues' reporting here and then "The New York Times"' reporting, you really get a sense of this uneasiness and this unhappiness that is spreading among Justice Department officials and prosecutors in particular.

You know, our colleagues here at the Justice Department are reporting that other officials are weighing whether or not to resign after what we saw happen with Roger Stone's case, which is, of course, that main Justice decided to intervene. They asked for a more lenient sentence for Roger Stone.

And the four prosecutors who were working on that case withdrew themselves from the case. One of them resigned entirely. I also think that there's concern about the sort of sense of political retribution that's playing out.

We see that Jessie Liu has resigned. She moved over to the Treasury Department, but she previously led the U.S. attorney's office in D.C., the one that oversaw the Roger Stone case. And her position was yanked from underneath her basically because of her role in leading this office that oversaw the case.

And so she resigned because there was really nowhere for her to go at that point at the Treasury Department if she was no longer going to be nominated for this top slot. And so I think, when you're a prosecutor at the justice firm, you're looking at this combination of factors, it's no wonder that people are feeling uneasy.

BALDWIN: Yes, Sara, thank you.

CNN legal analyst Elie Honig is a former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. I know he has certainly thoughts on this. Douglas Brinkley is a CNN president presidential historian.

And so let me just pause. I want to read you guys both something that Steve Bannon -- this is, of course, Trump's former chief strategist. This is what he told "The Washington Post."

He says a post-impeachment Trump is mad and -- quote -- "Now he understands how to use the full powers of the presidency. The pearl clutchers better get used to it."

Elie, first with you. Your reaction to that?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: First of all, if Steve Bannon is cheering you on, as a public official, as a general rule, you're doing it wrong. And Steve Bannon really sort of personifies all of Donald Trump's worst instincts.

Steve Bannon is not about doing right or doing good. He is about amassing power and using it. And so, if that makes me a pearl clutcher, I will clutch away.

But I am a DOJ purist who thinks that the Department of Justice needs to be completely independent and entirely beyond the reach of the president or his politics.

BALDWIN: Doug, to you. What did you think when you heard that Steve Bannon quote?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: That Bannon is back in the 2020 campaign, that he wants to be in the good graces of Donald Trump. It's good for his lecture fees. It's good for his profile.

Here, we're starting the hour talking about Steve Bannon. But it reminds me of what's going on now very much, Brooke, to May of 1977, when ex-President Richard Nixon went on the David Frost TV show, did that famous interview, when he said, if the president does it, it must be legal.

We are living in that reality right now. Donald Trump believes he can do anything that he wants. He could run shotgun over the Justice Department. He can have Attorney General Barr do his bidding in any way, shape, and form that he wants. And he can let the prosecutors, career prosecutors, just flee.

And so it's a -- we are in a crisis of a White House, but it's in the middle of an election season. And I think it's only going to get grimmer and uglier, because the president's on a retribution tour. He wants to punish people. He's angry that he has been impeached in American history, and he's in a very vindictive mood this February.

BALDWIN: So, given what Doug just said, if you are at main Justice or at a U.S. attorney's office, and you're with thinking that your boss, ultimately, Bill Barr, maybe doesn't have your back, what kind of chilling effect does this have? I mean, Sara was just reporting on potential walkouts.

HONIG: Yes.

Just look at what happened in Washington, D.C. When you have got four prosecutors walking off a case altogether, that is a protest move. There's no two ways about it. What we're seeing here -- and it's good to hear that from Doug Brinkley, to get the historical perspective.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

HONIG: Because, in my own experience, which doesn't go back to Watergate, this is completely unusual, unheard of, unprecedented. And it shouldn't -- by the way, this shouldn't be controversial.

The notion that DOJ should be separate and independent, even Bill Barr himself said it back in 2001. They all know it's true. And so the only question is, if you're in the administration, are you going to stand up and say it, or are you going to swallow your tongue and just go along?

BALDWIN: I'm glad you brought up 2001.

Douglas, this is for you.

So this is Bill Barr's second time serving as attorney general. The first was under President George W. Bush and that was back in 2001. And at that time, Barr said this about the Justice Department -- quote -- "You didn't mess around with it, didn't intervene. You didn't interfere."

[15:05:00]

And so now, obviously, he seems a bit more open perhaps to doing so. What happened?

BRINKLEY: Oh, I think Attorney General Barr is a chameleon, and he changed his colors whoever his boss is. Some people call it simply kissing up or job survival.

Look at it as you want to. But George W. Bush, whatever you think of his two-term presidency, would never allow the Justice Department to be used the way that Trump's using it.

So we're now looking at a different Barr, a Trumpized Barr going on here. The good news is, he is going to come to Congress and answer some questions coming up. And, hopefully, there will be a way to keep the attorney general in check in some way, shape, or form, as s Trump's hubris increases post the impeachment process, where he feels he was acquitted.

BALDWIN: Gentlemen, stay with me. I have more for you.

Let me also get your take on the president lashing out at his former chief of staff, John Kelly. John Kelly did not Hold back on disagreements with his former boss during a speaking appearance at Drew University in New Jersey last night, defending Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, the decorated veteran who was fired from his White House job after testifying during the impeachment proceedings about that phone call between President Trump and the president of Ukraine.

So Kelly said this -- quote -- "We teach them, don't follow an illegal order. And if you're ever given one, you will raise it to whoever gives it to you that this is an illegal order. And then you tell your boss. He did exactly what we teach them to do from cradle to grave. He went and told his boss what he just heard."

The president, of course, now responding to all of this on Twitter, saying that his former chief of staff was -- quote -- "way over his head" and went on to say that -- quote -- "He misses the action and just can't keep his mouth shut, which he actually has a military and legal obligation to do."

CNN White House correspondent Jeremy Diamond is falling this for us

And, Jeremy, Vindman's was by far not the only thing that Kelly criticized the president for.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No, it certainly wasn't, Brooke.

And, look, in the 14 months since John Kelly left his position as White House chief of staff, we really haven't heard him speak out on the president very often. So it is notable to see him talk about several different issues, criticize the president on several different fronts in this talk at Drew University.

Besides Vindman, there was also this issue of Eddie Gallagher's case, the Navy SEAL who was accused of war crimes, ultimately acquitted on that charge, but convicted on a lesser charge. The president intervened in that case to restore Gallagher's rank and keep him from being kicked out of the Navy SEALs.

Here's what John Kelly had to say about that: "The idea that the commander in chief intervened there, in my opinion, was exactly the wrong thing to do."

Kelly also went on to say that Gallagher doesn't represent the U.S. military, so notable on that front from the former four-star general and White House Chief of Staff.

John Kelly also chimed in on the president's rhetoric and his handling of immigration issues. He said: "They're not all rapists, and they're not all murderers," talking about undocumented immigrants.

He said: "And it's wrong to characterize them that way. I disagreed with the president a number of times."

Now, on this front, we should note, Brooke, of course, that John Kelly, he was White House chief of staff. He was the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security during a time when the president was enacting some of the most draconian anti-illegal immigration policies of his presidency, including that zero tolerance family separation policy.

And we should also note that John Kelly, since leaving his White House post, on March, he actually joined the board of Caliburn International, a company that is the parent company of a for-profit company that essentially houses migrant children detained by U.S. immigration officials.

So, important to note that there. Even as Kelly criticizes Trump's rhetoric on immigration, we don't necessarily know that they're that far apart actually on how to enact many of those policies.

We also heard the former White House chief of staff criticize the president's rhetoric on the media, particularly the president's line about the media being the enemy of the people.

Here's what John Kelly said: "The media, in my view, and I feel very strongly about this, is not the enemy of the people. We need a free media. That said, you have to be careful about what you are watching and reading, because the media has taken sides. So if you only watch FOX News, because it's reinforcing what you believe, you are not an informed citizen."

Now, the White House press secretary, Stephanie Grisham, who we should note has not held a White House briefing during her tenure as the press secretary, but does frequently appear on FOX News, well, she commented on FOX News just this morning about John Kelly's comments. Listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I was in the room with him when he actually backed the president on many of the things that he's now saying weren't great.

Talking about the media, especially, I have heard John Kelly say some things about the media. So I thought it was a little disingenuous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And so beyond that pushback, Brooke, from the White House press secretary, of course, you saw that tweet from the president that you read just moments ago.

[15:10:00]

That is notable, particularly because one thing that we have not seen John Kelly do is write a tell-all book about his time at the White House. And, actually, we reported back in the fall that that's because Kelly told the president he would not write a book on Trump during his time while he's still commander in chief, as long as the president didn't attack him first.

So, does this change the calculus perhaps here, as we see the president now striking back at John Kelly? I guess we're going to have to wait and see -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Good point on that. Jeremy, thank you very much for running through all of that.

And I have got Elie and Doug still with me.

And I know you, Elie, have thoughts on John Kelly, now that he's not at the White House, like, speaking fully up.

But let me ask you one thing, just to clarify, because the president tweeted that he can't keep -- he being John Kelly -- can't keep his mouth shut, that he actually has a military and legal obligation to do so?

Is that a fact?

HONIG: No, there's no military -- I mean, if he was giving away the locations of our troops, sure. That's not what he's doing here. You're allowed to criticized the commander in chief, certainly, after you leave. That's what America is about.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HONIG: You're allowed to criticize the president.

Regarding Kelly remarks, two things.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HONIG: First of all, let's put to bed this whole notion that Vindman did anything wrong. Trump's trying to push that. People are saying he didn't retaliate. Don't argue with me. Argue with General Kelly.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HONIG: I mean, that's one thing.

Bigger picture, it's good to hear John Kelly come forward. But where was this the last year? Where was this when he was there? Where was it since he's left? I mean, a lot of people are coming out later or writing books, John Bolton, that kind of thing.

The people who have real courage, who I really respect here, are the prosecutors we talked about on the Stone case, who took a stand and said, we're not going to go along with this, and resigned and spoke out and made their points very clear when it mattered.

BALDWIN: Doug Brinkley, just for historical context, we have been talking about how, oftentimes, the president will punch back, right, when he feels like someone's insulting him, and even if it's a former chief of staff.

I'm curious, do you think this president has the thinnest skin of any president in our history?

BRINKLEY: There's no question. There's nothing like it.

Most presidents have a couple of loyalists that they could chew the fat over, somebody like a James Baker working Ronald Reagan, George Shultz with Reagan, or Bush 41, or you could go back in any -- Ted Sorensen with John F. Kennedy.

There's really nobody Donald Trump trusts, except perhaps his family. He just saw General Kelly as he for a while liked to have a lot of military people around him. But he's learned the hard way, Donald Trump, that most four-star generals put our armed forces and the Pentagon ahead of loyalty to a particular politician.

I wish General Kelly would have spoken out sooner. It would have made a difference, but better late than never. And his voice is important, particularly what we didn't mention, Brooke, about North Korea, that this president is being hoodwinked by North Korea, essentially.

To me, that's very scary and very dramatic. And he's pointing to the failure of that Trump initiative, which is one of the largest ones we're having to grapple with in U.S. foreign policy right now.

BALDWIN: He said flat out Trump got played by Kim Jong-un.

And now here's Trump, right, in the last week, saying, I don't -- I'm not going to -- I'm going to cool it with him until the election. OK.

Doug Brinkley, Elie Honig, we're going to leave it. Gentlemen, thank you so, so much on all of that.

And it's not just John Kelly. President Trump also is in this war of words with Democratic presidential candidate Mike Bloomberg, President Trump insulting Bloomberg's height, and calling him a loser. Hear how Mike Bloomberg is firing back.

Plus, the man who gave President Trump -- excuse me -- the man who just received the Medal of Freedom from President Trump, he goes on this homophobic rant about why people won't vote for Pete Buttigieg -- those appalling comments next.

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[15:18:01]

BALDWIN: One week after receiving one of the nation's highest civilian honors, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, Rush Limbaugh just went on a homophobic rant against Democratic presidential candidate Pete Buttigieg.

The conservative radio host asked his listeners how a general election face-off would look between a manly Donald Trump and a gay 37-year- old.

Listen for yourself.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: They're sitting there and they're looking at Mayor Pete, 37-year-old gay guy, mayor of South Bend, loves kisses husband on the debate stage.

And they're saying, OK, how's this going to look, 37-year-old gay guy getting his husband on stage next to Mr. Man, Donald Trump? What's going to happen there?

And they got to be looking at that. And they have got to be saying that, despite all the great progress, and despite all the great wokeness, and despite all the great ground that has been covered, America is still not ready to elect a gay guy kissing his husband on the debate stage president.

They have to be saying this, don't they?

Now, there may be some Democrats who think that is the ticket. There may be some Democrats who think that's exactly what we need to do, Rush, get a gay guy kissing his husband on stage. You ram it down Trump's throat and beat him a general election.

Really? Having fun envisioning that.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I mean, let's just -- let me bring you two in.

Ana Navarro is a CNN political commentator. L.Z. Granderson is a sports and culture columnist for "The L.A. Times" and ESPN host.

And, L.Z., I'm starting with you.

As an American man, as a gay man, how do you feel hearing those comments from this man?

L.Z. GRANDERSON, ESPN: Well, I'm not shocked. I mean, this is a man who's built his entire empire saying inflammatory remarks, whether it be racist, sexist, homophobic. Take your pick.

[15:20:03]

But here's the piece of it that may make people uncomfortable. He's not 100 percent wrong. Why do we know this? Because racism, sexism and homophobia still exists. And it factors into how people think. They may not necessarily feel comfortable saying it publicly, but we have seen enough over the years to let us know that racism, sexism and homophobia still influence the way a lot of people behave, vote, choose to befriend, choose to marry, et cetera.

BALDWIN: Ana, what do you think? You heard L.Z.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, look, two things.

First of all, Rush Limbaugh continues to be Rush Limbaugh. The Medal of Freedom is not going to change him. A stage four cancer diagnosis is not going to change him. This is who he is. This is how he's defined his life.

This is how -- what his legacy and his reputation is going to be, despite how long he may or may not live.

I would hope that if somebody got a stage four cancer diagnosis and was struggling with their own mortality, they would maybe try to make peace. But, apparently, that's not the case. Either way, I wish him well.

Now, on the substance of it, I think it's downright laughable for somebody to define Donald Trump as the man, the masculine man on the stage. The masculine man on the stage? Listen, he's a draft dodger. This is a guy who wears more pancake makeup than any drag queen I ever saw.

This is a man whose hair is dyed. This is a man who allegedly gets spanked with a folded-up magazine by a stripper.

So, I don't know what the definition is of masculinity or being a man's man. But I'd much rather a Pete Buttigieg, who is loyal, and who loves his husband, his one husband, as opposed to a man who cheated on his pregnant wife with a Playboy model and cheated on the Playboy model with a stripper, who then he paid hush money to.

So, if that's the definition of masculinity, I will take Pete Buttigieg any day of the week. I think Pete Buttigieg and Chasten Buttigieg are giving America an example of what a committed, loving gay couple looks like. And they are breaking ceilings. They are breaking glass ceilings.

It's going to make it easier, and I hope it makes it easier for the LGBTQ kids who get bullied all over America. They have some of the highest suicide rates. So who cares? Who cares what Rush Limbaugh says?

The only reason that it matters is because he got a Medal of Freedom. And he doesn't deserve one.

GRANDERSON: But, Brooke, I would argue that it also matters because, as I said before, Rush Limbaugh has created this empire from thousands, if not millions, of people who, if they don't agree with them, at least tolerate him.

And so, if they tolerate them, that means there are things that he says that don't bother them to the point in which they retreat away from him.

And while I certainly appreciate what my friend Ana Navarro to say in terms of defining masculinity--

BALDWIN: Yes.

GRANDERSON: -- I don't think we should get dragged into this defining masculinity through traditional roles.

Masculinity, just like femininity, is just as fluid. And Rush Limbaugh is functioning off an old, antiquated notion of what it means to be a man. And I don't think we should allow him to drag us into this conversation.

BALDWIN: Let me play some sound. I'm listening to both of you all very carefully.

This is -- the president has now weighed in on all of this. Here he was.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

QUESTION: Would Americans vote for a gay man to be president?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think so. I think there would be some that wouldn't. And I wouldn't be among that group, to be honest with you.

But I think that, yes. I think that it doesn't seem to be hurting Pete Buttigieg, as you say, as you would call him. It doesn't seem to be hurting him very much. And -- but there would certainly be a group -- and you know this better than I do.

There would be a group that probably wouldn't. But you're -- you and I would not be in that group.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Pete Buttigieg.

L.Z., are you surprised where the president stands on this?

GRANDERSON: Is he standing?

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: It seems like he's -- and we have heard him actually in clips before saying he doesn't have a problem with it, unlike what Rush Limbaugh says.

GRANDERSON: He says one thing, and his policy says another, and then he says another thing, and then he tweets another thing.

So, I don't really want to get caught up into whether or not what the president is saying is something that we can hang our hat on.

But what I will say is this. There are elements of what he says is true. There are people who will not vote for Pete Buttigieg for the simple reason that he's gay. It's sad, but it's true.

But President Obama did not get votes from people because he was black. Hillary Clinton did not get votes from people because she was a woman. This is a part of the American fabric, just like tolerance is.

I want to play a clip from "The View."

Ana, you're on "The View" all the time. So, Joe Biden's on "The View" this morning, and he weighed in on all

of this. And when you listen to the clip, when he's saying the word they, the they he's referring to is Republicans.

[15:25:05]

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I really mean it.

This is -- this is -- goes way, way, way over the top. And whomever the candidate is, you see it's happening already. Now Pete has got some traction. Well, they're going after Pete for being gay.

They're going to go after whoever it is the same way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They play dirty and--

BIDEN: People know me. They know who I am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Do you think, Ana Navarro -- do you think Joe Biden's right?

Like, if Pete Buttigieg continues to do well, do you think that his sexuality will play a big role in terms of attack with Republicans?

NAVARRO: Listen, if Pete Buttigieg becomes the nominee, there is no question that you will see attacks his sexuality. You will see attacks from -- on his sexuality from Russian trolls.

It will be a big source of controversy and of attack, because there are some people for whom sexuality defines morality. To me, decency and character and kindness and treating others with empathy and humanity defines morality, not your gender, not your sexuality.

And I would also say, I know Republicans, I know Republicans in Congress who have LGBTQ children. And so it behooves them to speak up and denounce this, if, for no other reason, if for no other reason, for their children, because to not denounce this kind of homophobia is to be complicit to it. And that, nobody should do.

BALDWIN: Thank you for having the conversation with me, Ana and L.Z.

A pleasure. Thank you.

Another Trump ally, FOX News' Tucker Carlson, is calling for the president to pardon Roger Stone before the judge even hands down her sentence. We will talk to the man who made the documentary about Roger Stone to find out what in the world Roger Stone must be thinking about all of this.

Plus, 2020 Democrat Mike Bloomberg not afraid to stoop to President Trump's level when it comes to insults. Hear how the pair went back- and-forth today and what may be motivating President Trump.

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