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Trump Commutes Blagojevich Sentence, Pardons Kerik and Milken; Bloomberg Qualifies For Debates And Will Face Off With Rivals. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 18, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:32]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: I've got some breaking news for you on this Tuesday afternoon. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me here on CNN.

Here's the story. Moments ago, President Trump just announced that he has commuted the sentence of former Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich who was ordered to serve 14 years in prison and 2011 on corruption charges so he is mid-sentence in the Federal prison.

The President, by the way, also pardoned former New York Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik, who served time for tax fraud and lying to officials and President just spoke about Blagojevich moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have computed the sentence of Rod Blagojevich. He served eight years in jail. It's a long time and I watched his wife on television.

I don't know him very well. I've met him a couple of times, he was on, for a short while in "The Apprentice" years ago. He seemed like a very nice person, I don't know him.

But he served eight years in jail. It is a long time to go. Many people disagree with the sentence. He's a Democrat. He's not a Republican.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I've got a lot of folks to talk to about this. Shimon Prokupecz is here. Here is our CNN crime and justice correspondent. Elie Honig is here, our CNN legal analyst and former Federal prosecutor. But Kaitlan, let me start with you, Kaitlan Collins over at the White House. Why Blagojevich? Why now?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Busy day here, Brooke. Blagojevich is someone the President has been considering commuting his sentence for months now. He was barely close to doing so in August, but he was talked out of it, even got an earful from some Illinois Republicans who say you cannot commute this guy's sentence.

He was convicted of essentially trying to sell President Obama's Senate seat and they say this is essentially what you went against when you ran for office. People who engage in these types of corruption, pay to play schemes.

But the President has now made the decision that he is going to commute that 14-year sentence that he was serving so he will be able to leave prison. But of course that comes on the day that the President also pardoned two other people.

He announced one there, Bernie Kerik, of course who appeared on Fox News last night we should note and was convicted on eight felony counts, one of those including tax fraud, Brooke.

But then also earlier in the day, we got another surprise announcement from the White House when they called reporters out in front of the West Wing just for the few moments notice to say that the President was also pardoning Eddie DeBartolo, of course, the former owners of the 49ers, so that is two pardons and one commutation that we got today.

And Brooke, of course, it raises the question, is the President considering pardoning his longtime friend, Roger Stone, who is said to be sentenced in just two days.

The President was asked about that before he boarded Air Force One. He said he hasn't given it much thought. But Brooke, we actually know that several sources we've spoken with say he has because that is something he's been weighing several times for the last several months as a Roger Stone has been making his way through this case, where of course, he was convicted on all seven counts.

And we know that people who are on Roger Stone's side have stepped up their lobbying of the President in recent weeks saying that he must pardon Roger Stone. And of course, the President has been weighing in on all of this.

I also do want to note that while we're discussing all of this, the Attorney General showed up at the White House about 10 minutes or 15 minutes before the President left.

The President was asked about that criticism from Bill Barr last week - that his tweets were essentially making it harder for him to do his job. And the President said he agreed, but then Brooke, we should note, he pointed out that he is the chief law enforcement officer here in the country.

Clearly, he thinks so. He has been pardoning and issuing these computations. The question is will there be more to come?

BALDWIN: Yes, that might just soften the blow for what is to come. You teed up all of these, you know, news nuggets. Kaitlan, thank you so much.

Let's get to the analysis, first and foremost, Shimon to you, just on Rob Blagojevich - Democrat. We heard the President a moment ago saying, don't really know the guy. He seems like a nice guy. I met him on "Celebrity Apprentice." SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Right. And he knows

because he has seen his wife out there speaking about it, and of course, we know the President watches a lot of news, and so that seems to have affected him.

But you know, keep in mind that this was a sensational charge, right? It was a big trial at the time. It was a big investigation by the Department of Justice, by F.B.I. agents, who really put a lot of effort into this investigation and they had a lot of evidence.

And also keep in mind that Blagojevich went to trial on all of this, and he was out there talking about this because I remember watching all the coverage around this.

He had all these different things to say. He always would come out and talk to reporters and certainly, so, you know, it's very clear that somehow this got to the President's attention. It affected the President in some way and perhaps, you know, because he was on "The Apprentice," because of his wife out there talking about it, he went ahead and finally did this.

I mean, this was not something -- the other thing that I'm interested to know if the President went through, if they went through normal channels here at the Department of Justice, whether any of that was followed in this case, and we'll hear about it because we know he's commuted other people, pardoned other people and did not go through the proper channels.

[14:05:31]

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Elie.

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's a great question. First of all, someone take away this guy's pardon pen. This is crazy.

I mean, look, yes, the President has very broad constitutional powers of pardon. He can pardon almost anybody for almost any reason. I don't think he can do it for a bribe, but short of that he can pardon for anything.

But why these three people? I mean, these are not marginal cases, questionable cases where you may have someone wrongly convicted. These are three paragons of corruption, fraud, extortion, false statements, tax fraud -- these three people.

BALDWIN: Which is what the President campaigned on in terms of taking on crime, which is why Republicans ahead of him potentially floating the Blagojevich commutation. They were like, no.

HONIG: Exactly, exactly. And this is why the question Shimon raises is so important. There is a part of the Justice Department called the Office of the Pardon Attorney.

BALDWIN: Okay.

HONIG: There are thousands of people trying to get pardons and you go through a process of analysis, and a lot of those people have legitimate claims. Maybe they were wrongly imprisoned. Maybe they were unjustly sentence. They're getting nowhere, yet the President is handing out celebrity pardons.

BALDWIN: Okay, but let's talk about the subtext here. Because what's the story that we've been covering nonstop for the last week?

PROKUPECZ: Roger Stone.

HONIG: Roger Stone.

BALDWIN: Roger Stone. And so the question is, does he pardon Roger Stone? And I'm curious, strategically thinking if he's like, all right, I'm going to pardon or commute the sentences for these three today.

That means when I eventually want to pardon Stone, Flynn, maybe Manafort, it softens the blow?

PROKUPECZ: And you have to wonder if he is sending a message, right? Who is getting sentenced in two days? We know there's Roger Stone, so you have to wonder, is he sending some kind a message? Why do this today?

And so perhaps that is what's going on here as well. The fact that he won't even answer -- you know, when reporters asked the President -- just now someone asked him, are you going to pardon Roger Stone? He says, I'm not even thinking about it, but what happened to him was unfair. What's happened to Michael Flynn has been unfair. What's happened to Paul Manafort has been unfair.

So it's very likely that that's the road that we're heading in this case.

BALDWIN: Do you think it's entirely strategic, soften the blow?

HONIG: I do. I think -- think about it this way, Rob Blagojevich is sort of the pinnacle of corruption. He's up here. And so if we all get used to that, and that happens today, then when he pardons people who are here a little lower, maybe stole --

BALDWIN: Lying to the F.B.I., obstruction.

HONIG: Right. It'll seem like well, it's sort of lesser and -- what he said the other day.

BALDWIN: But it is not.

HONIG: Right. I mean, it's different because Stone and Manafort and Flynn relate to him, relate to Donald Trump. I mean, all the things Rod Blagojevich did in Illinois have nothing to do with Donald Trump.

But these other guys that are now under consideration, I think they're going to be the next wave of pardons, they have to do with Donald Trump himself. BALDWIN: What about how Kaitlan was saying that the A.G. was over at

the White House, you know, for this or part of this, and the fact that just again, reminding people, just a couple of days ago, Bill Barr was on ABC News saying, yes, you know, those tweets from the President are not really -- not really ideal, something I have to contend with.

And now you have the President weighing in majorly.

PROKUPECZ: Weighing in and tweeting still about the Mueller prosecutor today, and he is referring to these prosecutors in the Roger Stone case. Those are the Mueller prosecutors, it would seem that who he's referring to.

As to the Attorney General being at the White House, it could be that he's just there for a pre-scheduled meeting, that -- it's often -- the Attorney General is there often. So it could be without --

But it's also going to be -- we need to know, did the Attorney General know that this was happening? Was this something that the President consulted with the Attorney General?

BALDWIN: But the President says he is the top law -- he, being Donald Trump -- the top law enforcement officer in the land.

PROKUPECZ: In a normal administration, you would.

BALDWIN: Actually, we have that. We have that sound bite. Thank you. Let's roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: You think he could still do his job with integrity though? He said you're making it hard for him to do his --

TRUMP: Oh, yes, he is a very -- he is a man with great integrity. The Attorney General is a man with incredible integrity. Just so you understand, I chose not to be involved. I'm allowed to be totally involved. I'm actually, I guess, the chief law enforcement officer of the country, but I've chosen not to be involved.

But he is a man of great integrity. But I would be -- I could be involved if I wanted to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: What is that? Like, I'm not, I could be, but I'm not. Who was he talking to and what's the message?

HONIG: He is talking to Bill Barr. He is baring his teeth to Bill Barr, and I think today, look, I don't know -- we don't know what happened inside the White House. But it would have been a perfect time for Bill Barr to have a face-to-face because let's remember the sequence.

On Friday. Bill bar says, my job is impossible if the President keeps tweeting, and immediately the President says, I'm still the boss, I can still tell you what to do, Bill Barr. And then he goes on to tweet about the case, the judge, the jurors.

So if I'm in Bill Barr's shoes, this is the day where you say look, I said it and I meant it. And if you keep this up, I'm going to have either stand up to you or resign or do something.

But the President is just reminding Bill Barr, like, you have a lot of power but I'm still the boss here.

[14:10:10]

BALDWIN: And if you're Roger Stone, you're like --

PROKUPECZ: Oh, yes, it's going to be interesting to see on Thursday what happens with Roger Stone. So once Roger Stone is sentenced, if the judge allows him out, where he doesn't have to immediately serve, he is going to have an opportunity to speak because the gag order is going to be lifted at that point. He is done.

Can you imagine what he's going to say?

BALDWIN: What -- what would that even look like?

HONIG: Oh, my goodness, it's Roger Stone. I can't -- I can't predict that.

PROKUPECZ: If anything, I think, you know, it always should be troubling. You know, someone who covers law enforcement, former prosecutor, you don't want the President out there saying that he is the chief law enforcement officer.

HONIG: No, and I disagree with that. I agree with you. I do not -- maybe I'm a D.O.J. purist. The Attorney General is the chief law enforcement officer. The President appoints him, nominates him.

But I disagree that the President is the chief law enforcement officer.

PROKUPECZ: Especially when the President has been in the middle of all these criminal investigations.

BALDWIN: Right.

PROKUPECZ: Like why -- to think that -- but this is just the way he is, right? He thinks he could get away with it, and the Attorney General says, you know, I can't do my job when you keep doing this. What does the Attorney General do now? Because he's continuing to do this.

BALDWIN: We'll leave it with that excellent question. Such a great discussion. Thank you, guys, so very much on that. More on this breaking news ahead. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:38] BALDWIN: We're back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Now to the 2020 race, and until now, we have largely heard Michael Bloomberg make the case for his White House bid through campaign ads, and it rallies across the country. But that all changes tomorrow night when the former New York City Mayor comes face-to-face with his 2020 rivals on the debate stage.

And if the last few days are any indication, Bloomberg can expect to get hit and hit hard on his billionaire status and his support, at least until recently for the controversial stop and frisk policy.

Last week, after he was heard trying to -- excuse me -- tying stop and frisk to targeting minority youth and a resurfaced 2015 audio recording, Mike Bloomberg said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is one approach that I deeply regret, the use of a police practice called stop and frisk.

I defended it for too long, I think because I didn't understand the unintended pain it caused to young black and brown kids and to their families. I should have acted sooner and faster to stop it. And for that I have apologized.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN political correspondent Abby Phillip is in Washington and Abby, we know today, Mike Bloomberg released a new criminal justice reform plan that you write is somewhat of a repudiation of stop and frisk. How do you mean?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Brooke. I mean, in many ways, some of the things that Bloomberg is proposing in this criminal justice reform plan were things that advocates had been pushing for in New York City for many, many years during the height of stop and frisk arrests and stops in that city.

Things like reforming police use of force, decriminalizing marijuana possession and use. These are all things that, now in today's Democratic Party are almost the standard fare. Virtually every Democratic candidate has proposed very similar proposals.

So what you're seeing here in Bloomberg's plan is he is calling for about $22.5 billion in spending on this effort to reform the criminal justice system and specifically to have the prison population in the United States by the year 2030.

Amongst some of the other proposals are these reforms to police use of force investing a billion dollars in programs aimed at young men of color that's an expansion of President Obama's My Brother's Keeper Initiative, ending the cash bail system and funding for reintegration programs and also programs that are aimed at cutting back on recidivism. But all of this, Brooke, as you noted is about the timing. Michael

Bloomberg is getting a lot of pressure from the other candidates about these past comments on stop and frisk, about why it took him so long to even acknowledge the clear racial element of stop and frisk in which black and Hispanic youth were disproportionately stopped.

And also tomorrow night, there is a big debate in which I can guarantee you, Brooke, this is going to be a big issue. This proposal gives him an opportunity to talk about something else, talk about new proposals instead of having to defend himself on these stop and frisk criticisms that he is sure to get.

BALDWIN: Certainly, tomorrow night at the debate stage, he will face a lot of incoming and so will Senator Bernie Sanders, right, because he's had a strong surge in the wake of Iowa and New Hampshire. Give us the numbers Abby.

PHILLIP: Yes, well, Bernie Sanders seeing a really big bump from that clear New Hampshire win. He performed very well in Iowa, although he came behind in the delegate count, but his campaign likes to point out that he did win the popular vote and you're seeing it in those polls at 31 percent. He is leading the pack there with a clear lead.

But look at who is right behind him, Michael Bloomberg. Remember, this is a national poll. So we're not talking about the states necessarily that are coming up. But it does show that Bernie Sanders is opening up a little bit of a significant advantage here in the Democratic field, and that's going to make him a bit more of a target from the other Democrats.

In the last debate, you already saw some of these candidates raising the question of whether or not a Democratic socialist should be at the top of the ticket. I expect that that issue is not going to go away.

But some of these other candidates have lost ground. Pete Buttigieg, Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren in particular, what will they do to really regain that ground at tomorrow night's debate is going to be a big, big question.

BALDWIN: We'll be watching Abby, thank you. On the debate, Todd Graham is the Debate Director at Southern Illinois University of Carbondale. And so Todd, welcome back to you.

[14:20:06]

BALDWIN: You know, to start, CNN has some reporting on how the Mike Bloomberg campaign is preparing ahead of tomorrow night. But we know, as Abby pointed out, he will have a target on his back, you know, he will likely get it coming from all directions. How does he prepare for all of that?

TODD GRAHAM, DEBATE DIRECTOR, SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY OF CARBONDALE: Well, I know that he is preparing because he has -- you know, he said that he has some people playing, different people like Bernie Sanders, et cetera. So this is the typical sort of a debate preparation, and so that's kind of what you do. But it's very difficult to actually prepare for a debate where there's

that many people on stage, because you don't know where the attack is going to come from. And you don't frankly, know at what point in time the attack will be from. It could be from 10 years ago, or 20 years ago.

Brooke, as you recall, from those very first debates, Joe Biden was attacked for things that he had said or were done 30 years back.

BALDWIN: Right.

GRAHAM: So, that's something that could put Bloomberg back on his heels. They might ask him something that he is just like, oh, I didn't even remember that, or I didn't think about that.

So these kind of things put you back on your heels, and then when you're getting attacked by all the different people on stage, I think that you really need a strong strategy for how to pivot.

I call it, it's the back step, pivot, forward, which is take a step back and defend yourself, and then pivot to something else on a similar line and move forward.

You just mentioned that Bloomberg has a new criminal justice reform system out. So that would be the pivot forward. If he gets any trouble on redlining debate or stop and frisk, he should answer that, but then he should pivot forward to what's coming next. What I could do about that. That's, I think, his best help.

But remember, don't get upset on stage. I think the two times Pete Buttigieg was the front runner and he got attacked, he showed a little bit too much emotion on stage. He showed that it upset him.

So Bloomberg can't let this get to him on stage.

BALDWIN: On the back step, pivot, forward point, you know, he's going to get it from, you know, Bernie Sanders. We know that Bernie Sanders -- Senator Sanders has largely built his campaign around anti- billionaire sentiment.

You know, there's been a lot of criticism that Mike Bloomberg is "buying the election." What is Bloomberg's best come back to that?

GRAHAM: His best comeback is the Trump trifecta. As you know, Donald Trump has three answers for everything. Donald Trump's first answer is no, I didn't do that. Okay. Well, Bloomberg is spending a lot of money, so he shouldn't say that.

Trump's second try is, I did it, but there's nothing wrong with it. Now Bloomberg could say that, but I think he should skip to the third part of the Trump trifecta, which is when Trump finally just says something like, okay, yes, I did it. And I'm glad I did it because I did it for the good of the country.

That's actually what Bloomberg should say. He shouldn't back down from this. I frankly, think it's a positive thing that he is spending his own money.

Yes, it does help him to get noticed and to buy an election. But guess what? Everyone is buying an election. They all have money out there.

Donald Trump has money. So what I think if I was Bloomberg's coaches, I would take the answers from Pete Buttigieg who is taking big donors, when he says we are in the fight of our lives, and we have to use all the tools necessary, then I would take the answers from Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar and Bernie Sanders and say, but corporate money is bad, we shouldn't be beholden to them because of corporate influence.

He has the best of both worlds, Mike Bloomberg. He doesn't have corporate money at all, and he gets to sell fun. So I don't see anything wrong with this.

I would say that it's an advantage and it's how you beat Trump. I would use this as a positive, not a negative.

BALDWIN: It's a huge night tomorrow. Todd, thank you. But ahead of the debate, make sure you watch CNN this evening. The first of five CNN Town Halls: Senator Sanders, Pete Buttigieg, Senator Amy Klobuchar take the stage this evening, one hour apiece; and then Thursday, it is former Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Elizabeth Warren, eight o'clock eastern Live from Las Vegas. Don't miss it right here on CNN.

I do want to get you back to our breaking news this afternoon. President Trump pardoning former New York Police Commissioner Bernie Kerik and commuting the sentence of former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich. We have new details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:28:43]

BALDWIN: All right, we're back with this breaking news here. Moments ago, President Trump just announced he has commuted the sentence of former Democratic Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich who is ordered to serve 14 years in prison in 2011 on corruption charges. So he has been in Federal prison for about half that sentence now.

The President also pardoned, former New York Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik, who served time for tax fraud and lying to officials and now, we've got another name.

The President has also pardoned Michael Milken. Michael Milken is a former Wall Street junk bond king who really became the face of the financial scandals back in the 1980s.

So let's get straight to CNN Politics and Business Correspondent, Cristina Alesci on Mr. Milken. Just give me a little bit more context because people don't know that name. Who was this guy?

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN BUSINESS POLITICS AND BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: He is known as the junk bond king because he was convicted of a very high profile securities fraud case, and it had to do with the issuance of these securities called junk bonds in the 1980s, lying to investors, and he really became the face of greed and sort of unmitigated capitalism turned bad.

Let me give you some backstory here. Michael Milken has done a fantastic job in terms of rehabilitating his reputation. He is a mover and shaker in Los Angeles.

Every year he has a Davos-style conference where he invites lots of friends and you know who some of those friends are, Brooke?

[14:30:10]