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Democrat Take Battle to Debate Stage Ahead of Nevada Caucuses; Bill Barr Considered Resigning Over Trump's Interference; Trump Grants Clemency to 11 Convicted Felons; Trump Commutes Ex-Governor Rod Blagojevich's Sentence, Grants Clemency to 10 Others; Top Pentagon Policy Official Expected to Depart Administration; Analysts: Economic Impact of Coronavirus Could Be Limited to First Quarter. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired February 19, 2020 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:15]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you. The Democratic race is getting hot.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it is.

SCIUTTO: I'm Jim Sciutto.

HARLOW: I'm Poppy Harlow. We're glad you're with us.

So it's fight night. Democratic candidates set to throw down in a debate just days before the crucial Nevada caucuses. But the person who's set to take the most punches not likely Bernie Sanders tonight who is seeing a major surge in support and is leading by double digits in three national polls. But former New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg is the one bracing for blows in his very first presidential debate appearance. We are live in Las Vegas with that.

SCIUTTO: Plus, the fallout over the president's stunning pardons for corrupt felons. Does that sound like corruption fighting to you? We're on top of all the developments there.

But first, let's kick things off with CNN's Arlette Saenz. She's in Las Vegas ahead of tonight's debate.

And Arlette, all eyes on someone who is making their debut, their debate debut, former New York Mayor Bloomberg. What can we expect?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, they certainly are, Jim. And the Democrats are basically preparing for a brawl right here on the Las Vegas strip as these Democrats are going to come face-to-face for the first time on that debate stage with Michael Bloomberg. He will be appearing for the first time and his rivals have already shown a willingness to take him on. Particularly several of his rivals accusing him of trying to buy the election.

Now Michael Bloomberg has been preparing for this debate for quite some time, holding mock debate sessions with some of his advisers, his top advisers playing the other candidates. And they are fully aware that Bloomberg could become the top focus at the debate tonight.

And the last night in our series of CNN town halls, you heard some of the candidates already going after him. Take a listen to what they had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't think you should just be able to buy your way to the presidency.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But I do think it's a bit obscene that we have somebody who, by the way, chose not to contest in Iowa, in Nevada, in South Carolina, in New Hampshire. He said, I don't have to do that. I'm worth $60 billion.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Do you think Bloomberg is trying to buy the Democratic nomination for president?

PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes. What else do you call it when you dip into your endless reserves of millions and billions and don't go through the process of campaigning?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now Michael Bloomberg is expected to be a big focus tonight. But he's not even competing here in Nevada or in South Carolina but those other Democrats are. As we are now just three days out from the caucuses and just yesterday, that early voting period wrapped up. More than 36,000 Nevadans went to cast their early vote and we've actually learned that 3.7 percent of those who cast ballots over the weekend, those ballots are voided, the majority of them, due to lack of signatures on the ballots.

Now if your ballot was voided from over the weekend you will be able to go and caucus in person on Saturday. But these are certainly some of the things that people are keeping an eye on in these coming days as the Democratic Party here is trying to avoid a repeat of what happened in the caucuses in Iowa -- Jim and Poppy.

HARLOW: Arlette, thank you very, very much. Stay there.

Also in the conversation, let's bring in Danielle Strauss, senior political reporter for "The Guardian."

So, Daniel, when it comes to tonight, it is likely going to be Bloomberg who is taking the biggest punches, even though he's not the frontrunner but has surged so much. If we have a preview of how he will be attacked, I think it's said here by Elizabeth Warren. Here's what she tweeted. Quote, "It's a shame that Mike Bloomberg can buy his way into the debate but at least now primary voters curious about how each candidate will take on Donald Trump can get a live demonstration of how we each take on an ego maniac billionaire."

Name calling there, to say the least.

DANIEL STRAUSS, SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER, THE GUARDIAN: Yes, look. I mean, this is part of Warren's play in general to be more punchier and to prove that she has the willingness, the fighting chops to face a big billionaire with a lot of money.

HARLOW: Yes.

STRAUSS: But beyond that, it's pretty clear that Michael Bloomberg will be the focus of this debate tonight. It's no longer everyone pile on Joe Biden. And it's not everyone pile on Bernie Sanders, despite what seems to be his front-runner status. It is the billionaire whose critics say he has effectively bought his way onto this stage.

SCIUTTO: Arlette, there is a legitimate question, is there not, for Bernie Sanders? He is refusing to release more health records, this despite the fact that a number of weeks ago, during the campaign, he had a heart attack. This morning, Sanders' campaign official came on this network, accused Mike Bloomberg of having a heart attack as well. That's not true. And Bloomberg pushing back to that.

[09:05:11]

What is -- how is this likely to be settled here because it is a standard protocol, is it not, for candidates to release their health records?

SAENZ: Yes, that's right. And you know, it's unclear if any of the Democratic contenders will try to make an issue of this on the debate stage. But there could certainly be questions going forward for Bernie Sanders after he endured that heart attack last year. And it typically is customary that a lot of these candidates, and even once you become president, that you share some type of medical records. So this could be something going forward that he's asked about, that his campaign has asked about.

This morning his campaign calling that a smear campaign. I'm not quite sure if that's necessarily actually the case. But there could be questions going forward about Bernie Sanders' health, especially after enduring that heart attack last year.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: I think for sure there will be.

Let's move to something else, Daniel. Because you're in Nevada, unions are so important there. And the very powerful Nevada Culinary Union is declining this go around to endorse anyone. I mean, that's an endorsement especially Joe Biden wanted given his strong union ties. He saw how important it was for President Obama to win this state in 2008. What does it say that they're not getting behind anyone and that they're not getting behind Biden?

STRAUSS: This reflects really the overall uncertainty within the Democratic Party. It's why at one point we had two dozen candidates here. There's a strong confusion, hesitance about picking or piling on to one candidate at this point in the race. It is a big blow to most of the front-runners and the top tier candidates that the Culinary Union is not making an endorsement. Usually that decides a Democratic primary in Nevada.

That's what the expectation was going into this state. That whoever had the support of these powerful unions would probably win the state. And the fact that they're staying out adds to the chaos of this entire primary.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: All right. Arlette, you spend a lot of time with the Biden campaign throughout. This is a big test for Biden in Nevada and then of course South Carolina to follow. Are they managing expectations here? Are they hopeful for better finishes than they had in the first two races?

SAENZ: Well, the Biden campaign is certainly hoping for a bit of a turnaround here in Nevada. They point to the diverse demographics here as being beneficial to Joe Biden. But Biden really needs to deliver a strong debate performance this evening. He has been shaky in some of his other debates. But now the stakes are getting much, much higher after those disappointing finishes in both Iowa and New Hampshire.

And the Biden campaign is hoping that his performance here in Nevada could be a launching pad as he heads into states like South Carolina, which he has described as his firewall. And heading into those Super Tuesday contests. So these next two weeks for Joe Biden are incredibly critical and so is that debate tonight.

SCIUTTO: And his night on the stage, CNN town halls as well.

Arlette Saenz, Daniel Strauss, thanks to both of you.

In Washington, the Justice Department is reeling after the sentencing chaos in the Roger Stone case. Sources telling CNN that Attorney General William Barr considered stepping down. This over the president's meddling in several ongoing DOJ cases.

HARLOW: Sources also tell us, though, that the tension between the two has cooled off a bit since then.

Joining us is CNN White House correspondent John Harwood, and our crime and justice correspondent Shimon Prokupecz.

So, Shimon, just let me begin with you. How real is this consideration to resign by Barr who is so aligned with the president philosophically on so many things.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: And really has had the president's back throughout this --

HARLOW: Yes.

PROKUPECZ: throughout his entire term at the Department of Justice from the Mueller investigation, you know, to on through. That's the big question. How real is this? A lot of people are very skeptical. And in part, you know, the Department of Justice, the attorney general, lack a lot of credibility right now. Perhaps maybe have no credibility. So what can we believe if people are telling us, well, he's thinking about resigning?

We know that he was at the White House yesterday, the attorney general, and he met with the White House counsel there during his meeting. But other than that, we've seen no signs that he's actually going to somehow quit or that he's actually fighting with the president over this. It is -- the problem that's going on right now internally over in main Justice is that he is really starting to lose the building in some ways.

People are not as supportive of him. So there are some folks who are thinking maybe he's doing this because he wants to show that he is standing up to the president, hoping to regain the building. Hoping to regain confidence of his troops. That is the big problem right now at the Department of Justice.

SCIUTTO: That's a credibility problem.

John Harwood, we know that Barr gave Trump something of a heads-up before comments last week about it being impossible to do his job given the president's tweets.

[09:10:06]

So evidence of some coordination or at least telegraphing his moves there. From your perch at the White House, were there communications about a possible resignation? Still coordinating, or is this a genuine thing?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think there is coordinating still going on. Senior White House aide told me last night this is a serious issue. But I think given the alignment on philosophy and issues that the president and attorney general have, they're probably going to find work out a way going forward.

I thought it was notable, Jim, yesterday that the president himself when he got a question about whether he was making Bill Barr's job harder, he kind of grinned and said, yes, I guess I am. And that's simply a statement of the obvious. The -- even people who are on the same team, if the president keeps saying the quiet part out loud and very loudly, you are going to have a problem for Bill Barr even if he entirely is wanting to defend the president's interests because he's got a broader constituency, both within the Justice Department and the legal community outside of the Justice Department.

We've seen these federal judges speak up about this situation and many former Justice Department officials as well.

HARLOW: Before you go, the president pardoned and gave clemency to a number of folks yesterday. And look, presidents make controversial moves in this front. It happens. Look at Marc Rich, right, in the final days of the Clinton presidency. But it doesn't generally happen at this point and with this magnitude. Talk to us about the most notable names and their connections to the president and Rudy Giuliani.

HARWOOD: Well, as you say, Poppy, it happens. It usually doesn't happen in bunches like this.

HARLOW: Yes.

HARWOOD: And in bunches of high-profile corruption cases by a president who has claimed and gotten Republicans to echo this point that he is sincerely interested about corruption. So Mike Milken, financial corruption, got a pardon yesterday. Eddie DeBartolo, who was involved in fraud relating to gambling issues. He got a pardon yesterday.

These are things that when you do enough of that at the same time, it makes people wonder whether you are trying to make a point that's apart from the merits of the pardons in those particular cases, and I think people are receiving that point. And that is that the president has this constitutional power. He loves wielding it. He loves wielding it in a dramatic way. And the question is going to be, how does Congress, how do members of both parties, and how do the American voters react to that as we move toward his re-election?

SCIUTTO: And we should note that some of those beneficiaries of these pardons are donors to the president's campaign.

HARLOW: Yes.

HARWOOD: Absolutely right.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Notable and, of course, we're in the midst of a re- election campaign.

HARWOOD: Also people who have appeared on his television shows like Rod Blagojevich.

SCIUTTO: And "Apprentice." He lost.

John Harwood, Shimon Prokupecz, thanks very much to both of you.

Still to come this hour, a top official at the Pentagon is expected to be forced out of his post soon. Asked for his resignation after disagreeing with the president's policies on a number of issues, including Ukraine. We're going to have more on that.

HARLOW: Also jurors in the Harvey Weinstein case will set -- are set today to begin their second day of deliberations in just a few minutes. Could we see a verdict come down today? We'll take you live outside the courthouse.

And to Nevada where the fight for the Latino vote is well under way. Which candidate has the message that is resonating there?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: We know he watches "Fox news". Well, today, more indications he is listening to it. JIM SCIUTTO, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Several of the 11 people granted

clemency by Trump had supporters appear on the "Fox News Network" including the wife of former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, Patty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have commuted sentence of Rod Blagojevich. He served eight years in jail. It's a long time. And I watched his wife on television.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Joining us now to discuss, John Avlon; CNN political -- CNN senior political analyst and Joseph Moreno; former DOJ prosecutor. Mike Rogers is also with us, former Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. Mike Rogers, let me just begin with you because there are a number of Republicans, even allies of the president in the state of Illinois, five of them, I believe yesterday, dismayed to see, you know, the commutation of the sentence for Blagojevich, and also the way the president explained it. Do you join them? Do you understand these?

MIKE ROGERS, FORMER HOUSE INTELLIGENCE CHAIRMAN: Well, I was an FBI agent in Chicago, and saw a lot of corruption cases --

HARLOW: Yes --

ROGERS: Pass through that office. And by the way, a lot of governors, both Republicans and Democrats, went to jail in that period. It was a strange time. So, I -- you know, I do worry about the sending the message to a culture that is already inclined to believe that they're entitled to make a little extra money by being elected official. And I -- you know, that just concerns me when the president engages in that activity.

I apparently didn't talk to a lot of folks about that. And, remember, there are victims in these crimes. And boy, you know, if you really want justice, the laws prescribes one thing, justice sometimes is how that plays out in the court in the sentencing. That, to me, you got -- you have to take the victims under consideration in this.

SCIUTTO: Joseph Moreno, I mean, part of the issue here, right, is President Trump's personal involvement or tie to some of these people. Let's look at some of them. Some of them were folks, and even you saw the president there, mentioned he watched his wife on "Fox News". That was part of the spark here. This applies to Eddie DeBartolo craft, he's a friend of Trump, Roger Goodell pushed for him. Bernie Kerik, he watched on -- praised Trump on "Fox News", Angela Stanton, praised Trump on "Fox News".

[09:20:00]

That's one list. But let's look at the other list of folks, Paul Pogue and Mike Milken who contributed to the Trump campaign. Presidents have given pardons to contributors before. You mentioned Marc Rich. But we're in the midst of a campaign -- JOSEPH MORENO, FORMER DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE PROSECUTOR: Yes --

SCIUTTO: Re-election campaign by --

HARLOW: Yes, that's a good point --

SCIUTTO: Trump. As a lawyer, is that problematic?

MORENO: Well, look, now, I mean, legally, no. I mean, the president's pardon power is almost completely unfettered, short of it being corrupt. But I mean, without that link, I mean, the president has tremendous power to grant pardons, usually ones this controversial are done at an 11th hour, usually in a lame-duck session, not in the midst of -- like you say, a campaign for all to see.

But, look, the president no doubt viewed his acquittal and his impeachment trial as a big win. And the pardons, the comments about Roger Stone, the other comments about his powers as the chief executive, he is doing a victory lap. I mean, he has seen that -- like basically, the Democrats had their most powerful tool in their arsenal they used against him, and he's still standing --

HARLOW: Yes --

MORENO: Possibly stronger than ever.

HARLOW: John Avlon, to where this goes from here, right? If this is a victory lap, how many laps does he take and how much more consequential do they become, right? President Obama's former Attorney General Eric Holder told "The New York Times" quote, "the real test will be what does the president do with Stone, Manafort and others who are directly connected to him and have the ability to provide information that is harmful for him."

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes --

HARLOW: Do you agree with him, that's the real test?

AVLON: Absolutely. And there's every reason to suggest that the pattern of pardons he's made, particularly with regard to political allies, you know, forget the petitioning through "Fox News" which itself is problematic because it goes around Justice Department guidelines. Look at the crimes he pardoned for corruption yesterday. Now, if you delineate them, you know, corruption, abuse of power, tax fraud, wire fraud, obstruction of justice, perjury, they're all things that his political allies have been accused of doing.

Some are currently in prison. So, there's every reason to suggest that he is laying the ground work for further pardons. And so when he says he hasn't even thought about pardoning Roger Stone, don't believe that for one second.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

AVLON: That's what's so troubling about this. It's normalizing political corruption. SCIUTTO: Mike Rogers, you're Republican congressman, and also as you

know, you were an FBI agent, you were involved in putting people in jail who broke the law. For folks at home who have seen a lot of this stuff before, they're like, this is just Trump being Trump again. You know, how important is this, is it different? Just explain what the worries are here in terms of use of the pardon and the commutation power?

ROGERS: Well, first of all, it's -- to me, it sends just a horrible message that if you are powerful, you have money and you're connected, even though you participated in securities fraud -- by the way, who served a sentence which I argue was appropriate, he served two years out of nine years, probably the right sentence that was justice, Mike Milken.

And I would argue the message that you send by saying, no, we're going to wipe that crime away, and now by the way, you can re-engage into the market activity like he was prohibited before. You know, to me that just sends a terrible message. I mean, white collar crimes are hard enough. They're hard to prosecute, hard to find, and hard to make sure that these cases come together appropriately, so you could get a guilty verdict.

And so when you do this, it just -- to me, it just sends exactly the wrong message --

HARLOW: Well --

ROGERS: And here's -- can I just say the other problem --

HARLOW: Yes --

ROGERS: With this is, there are some sentence guidelines problems and issues with the Justice Department, and I say that as a guy who put people in jail that we need to make sure that it's appropriate and it's not emotional, and it doesn't have political bias as, you know, a heavy sentence for someone because you don't like them kind of a thing. This I argue makes those kind of discussions harder in the future. I think this hurts the cause where I think Trump thinks he's trying to go with this.

AVLON: Look, I mean, you know, the head of the Illinois legislature actually just repeated the line that Mike just said. You know, this sends a terrible message that Republicans in Illinois are furious about this. It's not because Blagojevich is a Democrat. It's because he was corrupt. And it sends a terrible message about corruption. You know, and for all those Republican senators who argued during the impeachment trial that President Trump was simply trying to take a strong stand on corruption, I mean, that was absurd at the time.

But it's blatantly an insult to any integrity they have now if they actually believe that. Because this isn't about, you know, draining the swamp. This is re-stocking the swamp. Don't mistake it.

HARLOW: I sense a reality check --

MORENO: Yes --

HARLOW: Coming.

AVLON: Yes.

HARLOW: Joseph, Chairman Rogers brought up Mike Milken; billionaire, of course, who can now go back to these practices he was barred from before. But beyond that, is there anything that is legally stopping him now from turning around and using those funds to massively help the president get re-elected?

MORENO: Well, I mean, you know, the short answer is, no. I mean --

HARLOW: OK --

MORENO: Even though he's free to do with his money as he wishes.

HARLOW: Yes --

MORENO: I did read that, I think he will still be barred from the securities industry. I think that bar still stays in effect.

HARLOW: I'm not sure, we'll check --

MORENO: Yes, but I mean -- but, no, other than that, he's free and clear. I mean, the pardon is expunged. He served his sentence, and certainly, he can use his money as he wishes, and so --

[09:25:00]

SCIUTTO: Yes or no. The president claims to be the nation's senior law enforcement official. You're a lawyer, served for a number of years in the Justice Department. True or false?

MORENO: I chuckled when I heard that. I mean, we usually use that term to describe the Attorney General --

SCIUTTO: Yes, I know --

MORENO: Maybe the FBI director, right? I mean, look, Article 2 of the constitution, I mean, all executive power is invested in the president. It's a massive amount of authority. And it's why it's so important when we elect a president, we -- I mean, we elect a person who understands how to wield that authority, when to wield it, when to delegate it, when to talk, when to be quiet.

You know, and so, I think voters have a very clear picture here of whether they want this -- you know, this pattern to continue further beyond November -- I mean or basically say --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

MORENO: Look, we've had enough.

AVLON: This is the problem with an imperial presidency. This is the problem with a unitary executive, whatever theory you want to apply, because character does matter. But if you have a president who doesn't believe that character matters, he can be capable of a great deal. It's why checks and balances are a matter, it's why the erosion of those principles is so dangerous to the republic.

SCIUTTO: No question. Thanks to all of you guys --

HARLOW: Thanks to all, yes -- important conversation. Mike Rogers, John Avlon, Joseph Moreno, we appreciate you. More fallout following the acquittal of President Trump. Sources say the Pentagon's top policy official -- this is Jim's reporting, is being pushed out.

SCIUTTO: And we're just moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Stocks look to start the day higher as investors keep watching the latest news on how coronavirus is affecting the bottom line of businesses across the globe. And analysts think the economic impact may be limited to just the first quarter of the year. Do they really know that?

It is already having a big effect, Adidas says its business activity in China is down 85 percent --

HARLOW: Wow --

SCIUTTO: Since the Chinese new year -- that because of the virus.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END