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All The White-Collar Crimes Trump Forgave In 24 Hours; What's Behind Trump's Pardons & Clemency Spree?; Sanders Breaks With Ocasio- Cortez Over Medicare For All; Candidates Heavily Court Minority Working-Class Voters; Top Pentagon Policy Official, John Rood, Resigns; Rivals' Gloves Come Off As Bloomberg Hits Debate Stage For First Time. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired February 19, 2020 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: This stemmed from when he tried to become Homeland Security, the head of Homeland Security. Then-President Bush nominated him, and then it set off a whole host of investigations where he ultimately would plead guilty to tax fraud, lying to White House officials.

And then, of course, there's Michael Milken, the so-called junk bond king. And he, of course, was convicted of securities fraud, conspiracy. He served about 22 months in prison. He actually cooperated in a lot of the -- in other investigations that ultimately the federal government used them on.

But obviously, all of these very controversial because of the types of crimes here that they were either convicted of or pleaded guilty to -- Brooke?

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: All right, Shimon, thank you.

Let's talk bigger picture of these acts of clemency. My next guest penned a CNN opinion piece with the headline, "Trump's Pardons Show His Contempt for the Law."

Here's a quote: "The joke practically writes itself. Trump, the man who will still not denounce the conviction and years of imprisonment for the so-called Central Park Five, the name given to the young men who were wrongly convicted of raping a jogger in 1989 and exonerated in 2002 thanks to DNA evidence, gets to decide who is being treated unfairly by the justice system."

L.Z. Granderson wrote those words. He's a journalist, a political analyst, who was once a fellow at the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago at Columbia University.

L.Z., always a pleasure. Welcome.

L.Z. GRANDERSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: You argue that the president is using his powers of clemency for entirely different reasons of presidents past. How do you mean? GRANDERSON: Well, when I began writing this piece, the first thing I

wanted to do is just understand the exact spirit of the pardon that the forefathers wanted a president to have and the arguments that were being made.

And one of the things that struck me was that when George Washington, who issued the first pardon, talked about it. He said that the people who were convicted had turned away from their sins.

When you listen to President Trump talk about the people that he's pardoned over the years since he's been elected, he phrases it as if they never should have been convicted in the first place. That's why I wrote the piece.

The difference is instead of saying the individual has paid their debt to society, he challenges the justice system by saying they should have never been convicted in the first place. That's a disturbing trend.

BALDWIN: In addition to your point, what message do you think it sends all the prosecutors, the law enforcement officers, who spent years and years on these cases?

GRANDERSON: Well, it's just par for the course for some of the rhetoric that we've heard. For whatever reasons, he doesn't necessarily respect the separate branches of government, and he constantly -- whether you're talking about rhetoric or even policies he tried to shove through, he's constantly second guessing the judicial system.

And even though he likes to tout himself as someone who's sort of a champion of criminal justice reform, time and time again, particularly with these pardons, you see him question whether or not a person should have been convicted.

And he holds himself as the proper judge of someone's innocence or guilt as if he's the ultimate moral authority.

BALDWIN: Now, I know when we've been having conversations about this list of pardons or clemencies, you know, a lot of focus is on Rod Blagojevich or Bernie Kerik or Mike Milken. But there are at least two non-violent drug offenders on this list.

And my question to you is does the president deserve some credit there?

GRANDERSON: Listen, every single president in modern times has pardoned someone who's controversial, whether you're talking about Ford with Nixon, whether you're talking about Bill Clinton with Peters. You're not going to be happy with it.

There are going to be people that you are going to be happy that are released and people you're not going to be happy with. So, yes, the president certainly deserves credit for pardoning individuals for non- violent drug-related charges. President Obama's done it. George H.W. Bush has done it. The issue isn't that. The issue is, does he do it because he believes

it's the right thing or is it a smoke screen for the more nefarious aspects of the pardons trying to cover up for.

BALDWIN: L.Z. Granderson, thank you. And thanks for your piece on CNN.com. Good to see you.

GRANDERSON: You as well, Brooke. Thank you.

BALDWIN: Back to 2020. Senator Bernie Sanders is breaking from one of his biggest supporters on a very big issue. Why he says he disagrees with Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez when it comes to Medicare For All.

[14:34:19]

Plus, the awkward moment Senator Amy Klobuchar just had while speaking to minority voters.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: In a sign, we might be seeing the first Democratic cracks in Senator Bernie Sanders Medicare For All push. It happened during last night's CNN town hall. He pushed back on comments made by one of the most outspoken advocates for him and his plan, New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

She told "Washington Post" that Medicare For All supporters had to be realistic about the process involved in changing in the U.S. health system.

This is what she said, "A president can't wave a magic wand and pass any legislation they want. The worst-case scenario, we compromise deeply and we end up getting a public option. Is that a nightmare? I don't think so."

But when the Senator was asked about this last night, this is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Well, I love Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She has done more in her first year in Congress to transform politics, to get young people involved, than any freshman member of Congress that I can remember.

But my view is that Medicare For All, the bill that we wrote, is in a sense already a compromise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Nia-Malika Henderson is with me, a CNN political reporter.

And what did you make of his response? She was basically kind of conceding defeat.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, she was also living in reality based America.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HENDERSON: She's a congressperson. She knows how that works. And at some point, she said she was speaking as a congressperson, not necessarily as a Bernie Sanders supporter.

[14:40:00]

The idea of compromise is a dirty word in many ways in Sanders' world, right? They essentially attacked Warren because she seemed to be waffling on her support for Medicare For All. This was a really interesting back and forth.

You know, I think if you're a Democrat in the establishment, and you're looking at Sanders, you're worried about what it would mean for him to run on Medicare For All, what it would mean for him to run on, you know, the green jobs plan.

And you're hoping that maybe he would be willing to compromise and sound like AOC sounded in that, but, no, that's not who he is.

BALDWIN: This is Bernie Sanders.

HENDERSON: Exactly, and that's why his supporters like him so much. He's been so unwilling to compromise and so consistent.

BALDWIN: I want to ask you, too, just about, of course, caucuses. Nevada this coming Saturday really is more of a microcosm in terms of diversity --

(CROSSTALK)

HENDERSON: Yes.

BALDWIN: -- America's Democratic electorate.

Let me just set this up. One group that specifically a lot of these candidates are targeting, working-class voters, and often time, folks, including the candidates themselves, frame working-class voters as white.

So Senators Klobuchar and Warren took time yesterday to speak to many women of color in a powerful union in Nevada.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I literally stand on the shoulders of immigrants. I also stand on the shoulders of union members because, on my dad's side, my grandpa worked as an iron ore miner, and unions saved his life because they made the mines safer.

I was just with some of the culinary workers, the housekeepers today. I just left there. A big group of women, and a number of them, because they had just gotten off work, had their little kids, girls and boys, on their laps. And you look at those kids and you think they could grow up in a different world where maybe they won't even remember when Donald Trump was president.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I was a girl and my mother got that minimum wage job, a minimum wage job in America would support a family of three. It would cover a mortgage. It would pay the utilities. And it would put food on the table.

Today, a minimum wage job in America, full-time, will not support a momma and a baby and keep them out of poverty. That is wrong and that is why I am in this fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And you see, you know, so many of the faces, various women of color, who they are speaking to.

And my question to you is: Why is it important to change the narrative of who is working class? Who is a blue-collar voter in America?

HENDERSON: If we don't change the narrative, we actually don't get it right. You know, if you think about the ways in which people talk about Democrats and working-class voters, essentially that's the problem. Democratic voters don't do well with working class voters.

In fact, they do very well with working class vote. They do very well with black working-class voters and Latino working-class voters. Hillary Clinton won voters who were on the lower income, on this income scale.

So, yes, I mean, I think Americans have a hard problem or a problem talking about race, and so when we talk about working-class voters, we often sort of erase the whiteness of those voters that we're often talking about.

And I think we miss the story if we're not able to talk about these different groups and talk about race and talk about class in nuanced ways and get at the diversity of these different electorates.

BALDWIN: If we don't get it right.

HENDERSON: If we don't get it right.

BALDWIN: Absolute right thing to say.

Of the electorate, when you look at the demographics in Nevada, you know that 19 percent is Hispanic. And so obviously these candidates are zigzagging Nevada. They want the Latino vote.

HENDERSON: It's going to be probably 19, 20 percent Latino.

BALDWIN: So 19, 20 percent.

So here is Senator Amy Klobuchar.

KLOBUCHAR: My name is Amy, and when I was -- took Spanish in 4th grade my name was Elena. They gave me the name me Elena because I couldn't roll my Rs very well, and so it was E-L-E-N-A. And I am just -- first my story is this. I stand on the shoulders of immigrants myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So I appreciate what she's trying to do.

HENDERSON: Right.

BALDWIN: Yes. But --

(CROSSTALK)

HENDERSON: And this is what candidates often do. There's sort of cold switching that goes on and they try on different identities based on the audiences they're talking to. Obama would kind of shift into a black accent when he was talking in front of African-American audiences and talking about pooky.

That's what she's doing there. You saw the woman on the end who kind of grimaced when she said the Elena joke. This is sort of Amy Klobuchar's wheelhouse, corny jokes that don't land well. And I think that's what that was.

BALDWIN: Thank you for the reminder of President Obama. Made me laugh.

Nia-Malika Henderson, thank you. Good to see you.

HENDERSON: Good to see you.

[14:44:59]

BALDWIN: A programming note to you about the original series, "RACE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE. The episode Reagan versus Carter, a brutal primary, a punishing campaign, and a stolen debate briefing book. That is Sunday night, 9:00, only here on CNN.

Coming up, the heads keep rolling. President Trump pushing out another official who raised red flags about the delay in Ukraine military aid. All those details coming up.

And the knives are out for the former New York City mayor, Michael Bloomberg, as he gets ready to step up on that debate stage for the very first time this evening. How the candidates are preparing for the showdown.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:49:56]

BALDWIN: It has been exactly two weeks since the Senate acquitted President Trump during his impeachment trial and the revolving door continues to spin among staffers in the administration who played some sort of role in the Ukraine saga.

The latest person to leave is a Pentagon top policy official, John Rood. His e-mails show he pushed hard against the administration when President Trump froze millions of dollars in military aid to Ukraine. Rood's resignation letter this morning read, in part, quote, "Mr.

President, it's my understanding from Defense Secretary Esper that you requested my resignation. As you have requested, I am providing my resignation, effective February 28th."

And President Trump confirmed the resignation through a re-tweet saying that he thanks Rood for his service as he forwarded an article that detailed Rood, quote, "faced pressure to resign from some who lost confidence in his ability to carry out the Trump agenda."

CNN National Security Correspondent, Vivian Salama, has reported extensively on Rood's e-mails.

Vivian, nice to see you, by the way.

Why was he -- tell me more about what you've learned about why he was forced out.

VIVIAN SALAMA, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: There were a number of issues. Of course, the Ukraine e-mails that I've reported in the last couple of weeks didn't help. He'd really been pushing back against President Trump's decision to withhold aid to Ukraine.

There were a number of other policy issues as well. Rood has expressed skepticism about the administration's efforts to pursue talks with the Taliban. We're in the middle of that effort right now.

He didn't see eye to eye with a number of officials at the Pentagon and the White House and the NSC.

It's interesting because he is a career official. He was someone that was appointed by President Trump. But he's someone who has also served in a number of different posts previous to that. He served as a Pentagon official for arms control. He's also served at the NSC before that.

So someone who has a history of serving in the government in different posts, and someone with a great deal of experience at time where a lot of experience comes in handy.

BALDWIN: I was listening to a conversation and David Sanger was making this point, essentially the policy of this administration should be speaking up on Russia, should be speaking up on China and North Korea, et cetera.

And you know, the big exception is that President Trump is the one who doesn't always go along with his administration's policy. Essentially, Rood is out because he was following what the administration normally would tell him to do?

SALAMA: One of the e-mails I had published a couple of weeks ago talked about one he sent to Secretary Esper days after Esper took office, and one of the phrases that he had in the e-mail -- and we have it right here -- is he said, "Placing a hold on security assistance at this time would jeopardize this unique window of opportunity, and undermine our defense priorities with a key partner in the strategic competition with Russia."

So essentially, he was telling the secretary directly this is a mistake, and we don't want to blow it with Ukraine because, ultimately, it has so many other repercussions down the line.

And so here we are two weeks later, and Rood is out.

BALDWIN: And last day February 28th, according to --

(CROSSTALK)

SALAMA: Right, right.

BALDWIN: Vivian, thank you --

SALAMA: Thank you.

BALDWIN: -- very much.

Joe Biden, moments ago, hitting Michael Bloomberg for using former President Obama in Bloomberg's campaign ads. We'll play that video for you and talk about that.

And Pete Buttigieg firing back after Rush Limbaugh's homophobic attack on him last week. Hear what he has to say and Rush Limbaugh's non- apology.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:58:02]

BALDWIN: Hour two You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being here.

Michael Bloomberg goes from the campaign trail to center stage tonight when he joins the other Democrats vying to win back the White House in the party's latest presidential debate.

We many have just gotten a little preview of what the former major can expect courtesy of Pete Buttigieg, who along with Senators Bernie Sanders and Amy Klobuchar, will have their gloves off.

Here is what they had to say during last night's CNN's town halls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KLOBUCHAR: I don't think you should just be able to buy your way to the presidency.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do think it's a bit obscene that we have somebody who, by the way, chose not to contest in Iowa, in Nevada, or in South Carolina, in New Hampshire.

He said I don't have to do that. I'm worth $60 billion.

UNIDENTIFIED DEBATE MODERATOR: Do you think Michael Bloomberg is trying to buy the Democratic nomination for president?

PETE BUTTIGIEG, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER SOUTH BEND MAYOR: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

BUTTIGIEG: Yes.

(APPLAUSE)

BUTTIGIEG: I mean, what else do you call it --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was quite a moment.

Wolf Blitzer, Abby Phillip with me here in Washington.

Good to be in your town. Thank you for having me.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to Washington.

BALDWIN: So you guys were two of the three big moderators of the last CNN debate, so I wanted to go to the pros and just ask, first to you, what will you really be looking for tonight?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Who is going to land the first punch on Michael Bloomberg? Who is going to take that chance and actually do what they've been signaling they want to do for the last several days?

This particular field of Democrats has been really hesitant to do a lot of attacking on the debate stage itself. They've been willing to do a little bit of it on the campaign trail.

But there's a lot of risk involved in attacking each other on the stage, especially with someone like Bloomberg, who hasn't been on any of the stages to this point.

So who that person is who takes the first shot is going to be really interesting to see. And which candidates actually stand back and allow others to get into the fray.

[14:59:59]

There's some candidates, like Joe Biden, for example, who might benefit from not being the one to actually take Bloomberg on.