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Roger Stone Sentenced Amid Political Firestorm; Democrats Target Mike Bloomberg In His Debate Debut. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired February 20, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: All right, good morning, everyone, top of the hour, and a big hour ahead. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

A test of presidential power and influence, moments from now, Trump ally, Roger Stone, will be sentenced amid fierce controversy over the Justice Department's independence from the president. Attorney General Bill Barr facing backlash for intervening in the case, this after President Trump lashed out over prosecutors' sentencing recommendations. He called it a miscarriage of justice.

HARLOW: That's right.

So Stone was convicted by a juror on all seven charges that included obstruction, lying to Congress and witness tampering. The attorney general, Bill Barr's move to lessen his sentence led to all four prosecutors quitting the case and the attorney general publicly rebuking the president for his tweets. That though did not stop the president from piling on, and just this morning on Twitter suggesting that he could be open to a pardon for Stone.

Let's go to our Sara Murray. She is outside the courthouse with more. So this hour, we could get the sentence?

SARA MURRAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Things are about to get under way any minute now. We saw Roger Stone arrive with an entourage at court a little bit earlier, and this is the judge's chance to weigh in. Judge Amy Berman Jackson gets to decide what she thinks Roger Stone's punishment should be for the seven crimes he was convicted of, obstruction, lying to Congress and witness tampering.

Stone's attorneys have said he should not get any jail time and prosecutors originally asked for seven to nine years before the attorney general inserted himself and overruled their recommendation, calling it excessive and asking for the judge to consider a lesser sentence than that.

Ultimately though, it's not up to Bill Barr. It's not up to Roger Stone's attorneys. It is up to the judge to decide what she wants to hand down today. Regardless of what she decides, Stone is not expected to be detained even he is sentenced to prison time because he is trying to get a new trial in this case.

And, of course, the big X factor in all of this is what President Trump is going to do and if he is going to try to intervene and pardon Roger Stone. He's repeatedly said that he feels like Stone, his longtime friend and political adviser, has been treated unfairly. He's accused the judge in this case of being biased.

And he has once again taken to Twitter to weigh in on this. He tweeted a quote from a Fox News host saying, what has happened to Roger Stone should never happen to anyone in our country again.

And I just think we should remind our viewers that even though Bill Barr intervened in this case and said that Roger Stone should get a sentence that is less than seven to nine years, even the attorney general said he felt like Roger Stone's conviction was done correctly and that Stone should serve some prison time. So, you know, we'll see how this all plays out today.

SCIUTTO: Sara Murray, thanks very much, outside the courthouse. We know you'll call us when word comes down.

Let's bring in our experts as we prepare for that. Listen, thanks to all of you for being here.

Asha Rangappa, because I'm an optimist, trying to focus on the positive, if you look at the operation of the Justice Department in the last three years under this president, despite all the interference, at the end of the day, the president's allies have been prosecuted. Some of them were jailed, Paul Manafort, Michael Flynn, Roger Stone. And enemies of the president that he attempted to get the Justice Department to go after, Andrew McCabe, Hillary Clinton reopening the email investigation, James Comey, they were not. They were not charged. A sign that the Justice Department proceeding with cases as best it can without kind of listening to that interference.

I wonder, if you see Stone sentenced today and you see the president pipe in immediately with a pardon, does that begin to unright that balance in effect?

ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it definitely undermines a sense of fairness. But I think that what you've seen in these cases that you just mentioned is really the intersection of the Department of Justice with the actual justice system working properly. I mean, remember most of those convictions came from a special counsel investigation which was largely insulated from political influence. And in terms of not prosecuting McCabe, that was because the allegations against him did not support a charge. They couldn't get a grand jury to indict him. So there are these checks that have been in place.

I think though that the pardoning of these people, and especially if it extends to Flynn and Manafort, will undermine a sense of equal justice before the law and that, you know, you have to be friends with the president to, you know, get special treatment. [10:05:02]

HARLOW: Dana, what are you looking for in terms of when the sentence comes down outside of the years, whatever is given, the comments we may or may not hear from the judge and the reaction from the president?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's really it, it's the reaction. I mean, from my perch, you're going to obviously look at the legal ramifications and what the sentence is. And, obviously, it's the reaction from the president. And from whatever that reaction is, whatever the answer is from the attorney general, if there is one, because that really is where the political story is here. What happened last week was remarkable. What continues to happen now is remarkable.

I don't think anybody will be surprised if the president pardons him. I think it probably would be surprising if he did it right away --

HARLOW: For the election at all?

BASH: Yes. I mean, look at what the president did earlier this week. It was different, the people whose sentences he commuted and complete pardons he gave weren't his political allies and friends, so it is different. But he doesn't really seem to care. And, frankly, it plays into the larger argument that he's making on the campaign trail, which is I came here to disrupt, I'm disrupting, look at what's happening, the institutions that you all can't stand that I came near shake up are still trying to work against us with the conviction of Roger Stone.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying it's an argument that he's very likely to make.

SCIUTTO: To drain the swamp, right? And you see some of these important decisions being connected, it seems, to his own personal interest.

Jennifer Rodgers, let's talk about the crimes that Roger Stone is accused of and is the seven to nine-year range, which is the sentencing range recommended by the prosecutors, is that based on your experience, does it fit the crimes?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, prosecutors almost always recommend the sentencing guidelines sentence. So the prosecutor may say, sure, that's the guideline sentence, that's an appropriate sentence. I do think it's a high sentence. I think Judge Berman Jackson will go below it when she sentences him. My guess is three years, actually.

They are serious crimes, without question. This is not the sort of defendant you usually see get a big break, given his witness tampering and threats to the judge and so on. The same time at his age, I won't be surprised to see her go lower. But the sentencing guidelines are there for a reason. It's to ensure that people are treated fairly across the country and across different circumstances. So there are good reasons to take that seriously.

SCIUTTO: We're hearing from inside the courtroom. Of course, the proceedings have started. There are about 100 people in there obviously drawing unusual interest for a sentencing like this.

HARLOW: Sure. Shimon Prokupecz is also with us. Can you talk about, Shimon, the request from Stone's team for a new trial, not Stone, the request from the president, by the way also for a new trial? I know that the judge is going to consider that after the sentence is handed down. Can you explain to people how that consideration will work and when we might have an answer on that?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. That has been filed under seal. So we don't know too much about why the judge -- why they put this in, why Stone's attorneys have decided to ask for this. We do believe it has to do with one of the jurors there saying that she was biased and therefore they should be granted a new trial.

The point that I think is important in all of this today, having covered this trial from beginning to end, one of the things that prosecutors had to deal with during this trial is explaining to jurors why this case mattered and why it was important for them to bring this case and charge Roger Stone. And that's really when a lot of this is about, the fact is that he lied to Congress, the fact is that he tried to obstruct a very important investigation that had to deal with Russian interference, and that he lied. He lied to protect the president. And, really, that's what this trial was all about.

And the fact that Roger Stone and his attorneys came in and essentially argued in some ways to the jurors, so what, so what that Roger Stone did this, and prosecutors who are now no longer part of this case and have been attacked by the president made the point that --how truth matters, that we have systems and processes and we have a Congress and how important it is that when they are investigating certain situations, and when they are conducting a serious investigation, people are expected to tell the truth.

And the other point I want to make here, having seen this judge in action, I don't think she's going to get too political. But I'm going to tell you that she has an important opportunity here and that is to explain to people why the judicial system is important, why this process is important. And I think we're going to see some of that from her. It's an important moment because the judicial system is under attack by many.

SCIUTTO: So let's test this argument that somehow this is a biased process, because our colleague, Chris Cuomo, had another juror on the air last night. Here is what he said about the spokesperson who is now being attacked by the president -- rather the foreperson of the jury is now being attacked by the president and his allies.

[10:10:05]

Have a listen, Asha. I want to get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SETH COUSIN, ROGER STONE TRIAL JUROR: Tomeka Hart, who we elected as our foreperson on the secret ballot. Tomeka actually was perhaps the strongest advocate in the room for a rigorous process, for the rights of the defendant and for making sure that we took it seriously and looked at each charge. Without her in the room, we would have returned the same verdict and we would have returned it more quickly and without looking as deeply into the evidence. I'm formally convinced with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: How insidious is it when you have a president -- he's done this before -- repeatedly attacking jurors, judges, members of the Justice Department, et cetera, as somehow biased in cases we should note where the president has a personal interest?

RANGAPPA: Well, you know, it's incredibly damaging.

I think what's really noteworthy about the president's attacks and the people that he has already pardoned is that he has a special contempt for what are known as process crimes. These are things like lying, obstruction, witness tampering, things that really undermine the way that a case will proceed to ensure a fair trial and a fair outcome.

That is what's at stake here. This -- there is a lot of pooh-poohing of these process crimes. But our rule of law is built on process. We actually have the Fifth Amendment, which ensures due process. So these are some of the most important things that we need to enforce and especially here where you also have lying to Congress, which undermines a co-equal branch of government, which is also a pattern that we've seen from the Trump administration of stonewalling.

So I think it all fits within, you know, an overall pattern and view of the justice system and of Congress.

SCIUTTO: And, listen, courts and Congress can't do their job if people lie. They can't. That's it. The process depends on telling the truth.

HARLOW: It does. So we're waiting for the sentencing to come down. You'll hear it the same minute we hear it. Everyone, stick around for that. We have a lot ahead.

What happened in Vegas may stay with Michael Bloomberg for quite some time, this after the former New York City mayor was hit time and time again with bruising attacks during his debate debut.

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[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: He isn't leading in the polls, but Michael Bloomberg got frontrunner treatment at the Las Vegas Democratic debate last night.

HARLOW: He certainly did. The former New York City mayor taking the debate stage for the first time and his 2020 rivals wasted no time attacking him. Here is a little bit if you missed it.

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SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are giving a voice to people who are saying, we are sick and tired of billionaires like Mr. Bloomberg seeing huge expansions of their wealth while half a million people sleep out on the street tonight.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I actually welcomed Mayor Bloomberg to the stage. I thought that he shouldn't be hiding behind his T.V. ads.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would like to talk about who we're running against, a billionaire who calls women fat broads and horse-faced lesbians. And, no, I'm not talking about Donald Trump. I'm talking about Mayor Bloomberg. We are not going to beat Donald Trump with a man who has who knows how many nondisclosure agreements and the drip, drip, drip of stories of women saying they have been harassed and discriminated against.

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's easy. All the mayor has to do is say, you are released from the nondisclosure agreement, period.

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HARLOW: Which he did not.

Joining us to discuss, Karen Finney, former Senior Adviser and Spokesperson for Hillary Clinton's 2016 Campaign, and Ryan Lizza, Chief Washington Correspondent for Politico. Thank you both for being here.

Ryan, really big picture, stepping back from this, not about a single candidate, did the Democrats help themselves last night?

RYAN LIZZA, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you know, they're in an intraparty fight, so it didn't look particularly pretty. And I'm sure Donald Trump was enjoying watching that fight. But they're at the point where two candidates were pulling away from everyone else, Bernie Sanders and potentially Mike Bloomberg. And so I think there was a sense of do or die for a number of the candidates on that stage. And, you know, most especially Elizabeth Warren, who really had a very commanding performance, who probably was the story of the night in terms of how she went after just about everyone on that stage.

But is it good? You know, I don't -- I think if you're Bernie Sanders, you also probably were happy with what went down last night because it's still basically Bernie in a frontrunner situation, and everyone else sort of jostling to see who is going to be his principle opponent.

SCIUTTO: There's a great line in The Bulwark this morning saying, last night's debate was a murder/suicide worthy of an Agatha Christie novel, the one where everyone ends up dead. But I wonder, Karen Finney, thinking way back to 2016 and some pretty brutal moments on the Republican debate stage, I'm thinking of Chris Christie tearing Marco Rubio apart back and forth.

[10:20:04]

Is this to be expected in a primary, particularly at this stage so close to Super Tuesday?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, absolutely. I mean, the intensity obviously is only increasing the farther we get into this process. I think everybody knew on that stage, they, for different reasons, needed to have a good performance last night, both to help them in the Nevada caucus and then hopefully be able to use some momentum from there going into South Carolina, right? So, absolutely.

And I actually don't think -- it was messy, no question, and you could feel the tension. I could feel it through the television screen. It made me anxious at some points. But that's what they're supposed to do. I think part of the reason that it felt a little bit different is because the chemistry shifts when you a brand-new person coming in. I mean, most of the attacks that we heard from the other candidates, we've heard them make those attacks on each other for the last eight or so debates and on the campaign trail.

So the new dynamic, and Bloomberg, as has his campaign pointed out, he's was kind of slow, off the mark there and wasn't as well prepared for a number of key questions that he should have been better prepared for. So I think that was part of what was fueling that dynamic, is that people wanted to show they could land some punches.

HARLOW: And I don't know if he was unprepared to answer them, but he just didn't answer them, Ryan. And I wonder if you think that's because he was coached to not blow up, because he can blow up when he's asked questions that he doesn't like? And was he so focused on being like calm that he just didn't say a lot?

LIZZA: Yes, because he laid back for a lot of that debate. When you do those wide shots and you see everyone raising their hand to jump in, he wasn't really doing that. I saw one time where he did that, I thought it was notable. But for a lot of the debate, he was hanging back. His answers to a lot of the criticisms were pretty short and clipped. He allowed himself to his great detriment to get drawn into a sort of prosecutorial back and forth with Elizabeth Warren over the NDAs. I think that was widely considered sort of the worst moments for him.

I think a lot of, you know, debate coaches would have said, don't allow yourself to let her control the conversation in a way that she did. But he didn't -- he was not commanding, right? He was not there with an affirmative message, making the case, it was very defensive rather than offensive.

FINNEY: And also it was somewhat bloodless, and by that, I mean technocratic, most of his answers. I thought it was interesting that when he was talking about climate change, he seemed more animated and he seemed to have a little more emotion. I think it would have done him well to have shown a little bit more emotion when he was talking about stop-and-frisk and as well to be less sort of talking point when, I agree with you, he should not have gotten himself in that back and forth with Warren. Obviously, it's a very important point to Democratic primary voters, these nondisclosures that women are being held to.

He could have shown a little bit more compassion. I think that felt like part of what was missing in his performance.

SCIUTTO: Fair enough.

LIZZA: It was like a party that has been going on late into the night and someone shows up and nobody wants that person there and they're just trying to show him the door. Elizabeth Warren sort of played the bouncer role in this scenario.

And all these candidates have spent a long time apologizing for positions they took that are no longer, you know, okay in the Democratic Party. And he is just sort of getting to that point, like, okay, on civil rights, on all of these issues, you know, he's really playing catch-up.

HARLOW: We'll talk more about that in his answer. He had one line the whole night on criminal justice reform. That's it. We'll talk about that a little later.

Thanks to both of you, Karen Finney, Ryan Lizza. We appreciate it.

So join us tonight for two more Democratic town halls ahead of the Nevada caucuses. Former Vice President Joe Biden, Senator Elizabeth Warren both live from Las Vegas tonight 8:00 Eastern only on CNN.

And, a quick note, we did invite Michael Bloomberg to be part of our town hall series this week and he declined that offer.

SCIUTTO: Happening right now, sentencing under way for longtime Trump ally, Roger Stone. We're getting words from inside the courtroom. We've got 100 people in there watching closely. We're going to bring all that to you when we come back.

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[10:25:00]

HARLOW: All right. We're getting some new information inside the courtroom here as Judge Amy Berman Jackson prepares to sentence President Trump's ally, Roger Stone.

Sara Murray back with us outside the courthouse. What have you learned so far?

MURRAY: Well, the judge has kicked off today's proceeding. She's encouraged everyone to maintain decorum and she's also acknowledged a number of the letters she has received before sentencing, which is customary, of course, which she acknowledged letters from friends and family of Roger Stone who asked the judge for leniency. But she also acknowledged other letters she received.

[10:30:00]

The judge received a number of letters that have been posted publicly from concerned citizen who asked for a firmer sentence for Roger Stone, and expressed their concern about upholding the rule of law.

END