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Trump: Fight Against Bigotry Will "Go Quickly, Very Easily"; Culture Shifts In U.S. Following George Floyd's Death; Starbucks Walks Back Ban On "Black Lives Matter" Apparel. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired June 12, 2020 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: We'll see what happens with this investigation. I'm very interested to hear what you -- what your reaction will be when whatever disciplinary action, if any, actually comes of it.

This is all part of a conversation that you have been part of, a fight that you have been part of, for decades. The fight for social justice, the fight against racial injustice, and with that in mind, I wanted to get your take on something that the President said yesterday when he was in Dallas on the fight for racial equality in the country. He was talking about it and suggested that fixing the problem really should be done quickly. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think we're going to do it very easily. It'll go quickly and it'll go very easily.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: As someone who I mean, one thing if you know anything about Bobby Rush is that you have -- is about your long and decades long fight as a civil rights activist. How do you respond to hearing that from Donald Trump?

REP. BOBBY RUSH (D-IL): Well, he is a man who is really in the thrones of some type of insanity. I'm not sure exactly what -- I'm not a psychiatrist. But he is a person who has lost his sense of reality.

Listen, as you indicate, I grew up in civil rights movement fighting police misconduct, police brutality, and police murder. In 1969, (INAUDIBLE) happen, my close friend and associate on someone who call 1969.

On the very next morning, and then we are in the morning of December the 5th, and then came to my apartment also. They knock, shutting my door down. If I hadn't been in that apartment, I would have been killed that very morning. I would not even be here.

So I don't take these things lightly. And I know that there is no quick and easy fix to the issue of police brutality and murder in this nation. So when the President is way off base, again, he is -- and to me, he is essentially a jingoist or he lies to himself. He lies in the American people.

I think he's a pathological liar and there seems to be no sense of fairness, justice not (INAUDIBLE) in his money. So, you know, I'm at a point where I kind of really dismissed this President. Anything he says, anything he promises, anything he -- on his mouth, you know, to me is just like rubbish, throwing into the garbage dump of what I saw on the Donald Trump pathology -- pathological rubbish garbage mill (ph).

Donald Trump doesn't mean anything to me. He's not a President. He's the worst thing that's ever happened to the American presidency. He's the worst president, including the President of (INAUDIBLE) Jonathan, who tried to know nothing was someone who I was going to say, the worst President of United States.

But, you know, I knew Jonathan Smith (ph), I knew Jonathan Smith (ph) says, hands and shoulders among President Donald Trump.

BOLDUAN: Congressman, thank you for coming on. We can hear the passion in your voice and your words. Thank you for coming on.

RUSH: Thank you.

[12:34:04]

BOLDUAN: Coming up next for us, the changing tide against symbols of the Confederacy. One historian saying that while they can perpetuate hate, they can also teach history, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: In the wake of the death of George Floyd in the massive protests that followed, there have been signs of a major cultural shift occurring particularly when it comes to signs and symbols of the Confederacy.

In the past two weeks, Confederate statues have been toppled or taken down. NASCAR's banned all Confederate flags at its events and races. The Country Music Group, Lady Antebellum, just changed its name to now be Lady A because of the words association with slavery. And T.V. networks pulling films like "Gone with the Wind".

Joining me now, David Pilgrim, he's the founder and director of the Jim Crow Museum in Michigan. It's great to have you here. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. You have a unique perspective on this debate, what should stay, what should go, and what it's -- what they represent? You're a black man who's been long fighting racism. You're also the founder of a museum dedicated to racism in using objects of America's racist past to promote social justice. How do you feel about all of these things being taken down or changed or renamed or banned?

[12:40:07] DAVID PILGRIM, FOUNDER AND DIRECTOR, JIM CROW MUSEUM: Well, let me start by saying that we are an antiracism facility. And we believe that you can use objects of intolerance, in this case, racial intolerance to teach.

We have politicians, police officers, civil rights groups, human rights groups, scholars, teachers, and others, who come to the museum. We sit, we have difficult conversations. So I want to set that as the context.

In terms of the monuments themselves, those monuments are they glorify the enslavement of black people. If it were possible to relocate them, physically move them to another place and have them contextualize so that they tell the true story of the Civil War and the reasons it was fall, then maybe there would be some value in keeping them. But if that can't be done, then I just prefer that they be destroyed.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Because there was a question just plain and simply like, what can people learn from the Statue of Jefferson Davis?

PILGRIM: Well, you know, people talk about heritage that it's not hate, but is heritage. But then I would ask the question, what heritage are you celebrating? I do believe though that whether we use them to teach the lessons we're trying to teach or whether they are taught.

In other words, they're teaching lessons right now where they are, but they're not the lessons that we're trying to teach.

BOLDUAN: I need you to weigh in on kind of the entertainment side of this discussion. It's obviously a big part of all of our culture is what we watch, what we see, what we listen to, "Gone with the Wind" taken out of circulation, Lady Antebellum, changing its name. What impact does, do changes like that have?

PILGRIM: Well, first of all, racial stereotypes and caricatures, they both reflect and shape attitudes toward people. And, of course, movies, music have been primary ways that anti-black attitudes have been popularized in this culture.

And this was a little tough for me though, because we use movies, we use old music, the so called poor "Cool songs". We use those as teaching tools. And I think part of it is I'm just, I'm an old teacher. And I've seen that you can, if properly context, and contextualize, you can use these objects to teach people. That's not a belief of mine. It's something that I've seen.

BOLDUAN: Yes. It is more -- there's more texture to this conversation on that front. And I that's why I'm so interested in speaking with you, because I am curious, and I don't know your opinion on this. Do you think it is -- does culture change policy? Or does policy change culture? Do you have to get rid of the statue in order to get moved towards dismantling systemic racism? Or is it the other way around?

PILGRIM: Yes. So it's not a few minutes, I would need an hour. Obviously they are interrelated. You know, we have systemic racism in every major societal institution. We have it in our in higher ed, we have it in the legal system, we have it in our churches.

I mean, what we need is a prolonged sustained conversation with accompanying actions. One of the things that breaks my heart during this period is that, it seems that it takes the horrific videotaped death of a black man to get this nation talking about race.

You know, when I travel around people sometimes say, if you would just stop talking about race, racism would go away. And of course, that doesn't even make stupid sense. The reality is --

BOLDUAN: Do people actually say that to you?

PILGRIM: Absolutely, they say it. And but the reality is, we do talk about race all the time, but we don't talk about it in ways where ideas can be challenged, where we have to listen to others. So we bring people into the museum, and we show them for example, a mammy jar, and we asked them what does this mean?

And so for one person, it's them thinking about time spent with a grandparent. Or time, you know, some -- and I don't mean this disrespectfully a nostalgic feeling. For someone else like myself, it represents the vestiges of enslavement and segregation. But the purpose is and if forgive the point here is, the stable genius of the museum is that we put people together who have these different views, and we have them begin conversations.

[12:45:15]

BOLDUAN: Yes, having those uncomfortable conversations. David, I feel like I could talk to you for hours. Thank you so much. You're a professor through and through. I really appreciate it.

PILGRIM: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, a reversal by Starbucks on statements about Black Lives Matter. What the company is saying now and what it means for their employees?

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[12:50:02]

BOLDUAN: At a time when America is hurting, as calls for change, justice, and equality grow louder, companies are being challenged in a way they haven't done before.

Take Starbucks as an example, in a memo reportedly sent to Starbucks employees, it says that -- it said this, that baristas were told they could not wear anything that symbolized the Black Lives Matter movement. That memo was reportedly sent this week, this morning, a complete reversal.

CNN's Cristina Alesci is following all this. Cristina, what's going on here?

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN POLITICS AND BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: That's right, a 184, the coffee giant earlier in the week, as you mentioned, they sent a memo to employees or advise them that they could not wear material that supported Black Lives Matter.

Now the company explained in that guidance that it was because of safety concerns that there were agitators out there who are looking to take advantage of the movement and just create trouble. They sent this guidance saying that there are agitators who misconstrue the fundamental principles of the Black Lives Matter movement, and in certain circumstances, intentionally repurpose them to amplify divisiveness.

But that sparked a backlash internally from company employees who said, hey, no, we want to be able to voice our support and wear pins and t-shirts with the Black Lives Matter movement and it took days before Starbucks then reverse decision -- reversed its decision said the employees could wear this stuff and actually created a t-shirt in support of Black Lives Matter.

And then it issued a tweet this morning saying, until those t-shirts arrived, we've heard you want to show your support, so just be you. Wear your BLM pin or t-shirt. We trust you to do what's right while never forgetting Starbucks is a welcoming third place where all are treated with dignity and respect.

But Kate, here's the thing. Starbucks of all companies should be aware that its employees want to voice support for movements like this. This is a company that has already faced racial tensions and challenges two years ago. You remember, it was on your show, talking about the fact that they had shut down all of their U.S. stores for a few hours so that staff could go -- undergo racial training because a white employee had called the police on two black customers, for no reason.

That was a huge problem for the company. And the company really prided itself. And when I say it's changing, and when I speak to black business leaders, they tell me, it's great that these companies are out there making statements and committing money to racial justice groups, but we want to see the cultures change. And we want to see that filtered up.

And so when things like this happen, you have to question whether or not the culture at the top has really changed. And in this case, look, you've got to give Starbucks credit. It did listen to employees. The question is, why did they make that decision in the first place, Kate?

ALESCI: Yes. Thanks, Cristina. I really appreciate it.

President Trump threatening to intervene himself in Seattle calling protesters who have set up what's being considered an autonomous area inside the city's Capitol Hill neighborhood calling them domestic terrorist, tweeting this morning the following. Seattle Mayor says, about the anarchists takeover of our city. It is a Summer of Love. These Liberal Democrats don't have a clue. The terrorists burn and pillage our cities, and they don't think it's just wonderful, even the death. Must end this Seattle takeover now.

There's a lot to unpack there in that one tweet. CNN's Dan Simon is at this -- is in this area of Seattle. Dan joins us now.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Kate. We are in the heart of the occupation area or the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, CHAZ for short. That's what protesters are calling it. You can see the police station behind me essentially overtaken by the protesters. You see the graffiti on the side.

The Seattle People Department, all the windows have been boarded up, this after officers decided that they were going to try to deescalate the tension that had been ongoing between the protesters and the officers. Things were heated. There was tear gas deployed when you have some of these protests.

But ever since the officers left, things have largely been peaceful. Of course, you have seen the President's tweets saying that the Mayor of Seattle and the Governor of Washington really need to crack down. Jenny Durkan, the Mayor, responding to the President's tweets. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR JENNY DURKAN (D), SEATTLE: We've got four blocks in Seattle that you just saw pictures of that is more like a block party atmosphere. It's not an armed takeover. It's not a military junta. The chief of police was in that precinct today with our command staff looking and assessing on operational plans.

What the President threatened is illegal and unconstitutional. And the fact that he can think he can just tweet that and not have ramifications is just wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON: While city leaders have acknowledged that things have largely been peaceful, there is one problem, the chief of the Seattle Department is saying that the response time for officers, for people who live in this area has tripled.

And at this point, there seems to be no clear strategy in terms of when officers will reclaim the station. Kate?

[12:55:06]

BOLDUAN: Dan, thanks so much. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: This just in, the TSA says more than half a million people were screened at U.S. airports yesterday. That's a record high since travel tank to the spring due to the pandemic. But it's still well below average when compared to the 2.7 million that were screened on the same day.

[13:00:04]

Last year, the uptick comes as airlines begin to operate more flights and of course states across the country continue --