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Protests Grow in Atlanta after Deadly Officer-Involved Shooting; Atlanta Police Chief Steps Down; Trump Addresses West Point; Atlanta Wendy's, Site of Brooks Shooting, Burns; Confederate Symbols Removed amid Protests for Racial Equality; How a U.S. City Disbanded Its Police Force and Started Over. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired June 14, 2020 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hello, everyone, and welcome to Studio 7 here at CNN Center in Atlanta. I am Michael Holmes.

And we begin with that latest flashpoint. Tensions over police violence, right here, in Atlanta, where police shot and killed an African American man overnight.

What had been peaceful protests have taken a turn at a Wendy's, in particular, where that shooting took place. The building, earlier, was set on fire. Fully engulfed.

Protesters, also, blocked a major highway in Atlanta. So let's talk about that incident that sparked all of this. It began when police responded to calls about a man, asleep, in his car outside that Wendy's. Authorities say the man, 27-year-old Rayshard Brooks, failed a field sobriety test. And then, got into a struggle with the officers.

Just how we don't know. CNN has obtained eyewitness video, though, of the struggle. And, a warning to our viewers, the video is disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES (voice-over): You can see the struggle going on there. The police grappling with Brooks. Georgia officials say that, during that scuffle, Brooks grabbed one of the officers' Tasers, before breaking free. And, in the video, you can see he breaks free around here. Starts to run away. And police chase after him. Georgia officials released surveillance footage of the incident, as well. I do warn you, again, that video, too, is disturbing.

And what you've been seeing from this vantage point is Brooks running from police. He, then, turns, appears to discharge that Taser in the direction of the officers. Turns. Runs again and is fatally shot.

The police chief has resigned over the incident and just moments ago, we learned the officer involved has been fired. The governor's office says the state has launched an investigation. Here, now, is Atlanta mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms.

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MAYOR KEISHA LANCE BOTTOMS (D-GA), ATLANTA: I do not believe that this was a justified use of deadly force and have called for the immediate termination of the officer. Chief Shields has offered to immediately step aside as police chief so that the city may move forward, with urgency, in rebuilding the trust so desperately needed throughout our communities.

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HOLMES: Now things got tense outside that Wendy's earlier on Saturday night. CNN's own crew was confronted by demonstrators. Natasha Chen covering the protest for us. She described to Wolf Blitzer what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NATASHA CHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There was a much larger group. Everyone back to the Wendy's on the ground level. Of course, that is where this incident happened last night.

And so, a very large group started walking down the street, down University Avenue, toward that Wendy's. And there were maybe two or three individuals that began throwing objects at the Wendy's windows. And broke the glass.

And a couple of them went inside. And I saw another person trying to set fire to one of the umbrellas on the patio area outside the Wendy's.

Our photojournalist, our producers and I, we were trying to get video of what was happening. And there were protesters very angry that we were recording this and tried to block our cameras, to block also the journalist's camera and to block my cell phone from taking video.

And, at that point, they got aggressive. And our CNN camera was broken. And so, we, as a crew, decided to back out of that area. So right now, you know, we've left the immediate area.

But that -- that team -- and I could see that there were other people in the crowd. Kind of, you know, asking, why are they doing this?

While others were egging them on. So a lot of different reactions, as to whether that was the right choice to go after the Wendy's building.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST (voice-over): So I just want to be clear, Natasha. You were there. You had a photojournalist. You also had a producer. There were three of you.

Did you have any security with you? [00:05:00]

CHEN: One -- yes -- one security person, who was helping us just gives us another set of eyes to keep a lookout for us. And, you know, I think -- and, actually, I should back up a little bit -- I think we had two photojournalists, actually, one with the camera and another person who was operating our live view, this broadcast to all of you, broadcast the images to you.

So there were four or five of us. And it just got a bit chaotic. And in the moment, I was trying to record cellphone video while one of the photojournalists was recording video on his camera. the next thing I know, I turned around and I see these two protesters really going after the camera. And that's when I was told that, you know, we should get out of there.

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HOLMES: That was CNN's Natasha Chen there, describing an encounter between her crew and protesters earlier in Atlanta. Let's go to CNN's Dianne Gallagher. She is live for us, also, in Atlanta.

We know the one officer has been fired. But the other.

What other developments have there been regarding this?

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Michael, we're just learning that second officer who was involved in the incident has been put on leave. That's according to the Atlanta Police Department.

So the officer that shot and killed Rayshard Brooks has been fired. And the other officer involved, that you see on the video there, has been placed on leave. Michael, we're just getting that information right now from the Atlanta Police Department.

HOLMES: There's -- there's been three incidents in Atlanta, just recently. There was the one where the two young people were Tased in their car. Another one where a young woman got body slammed by an officer, broke her clavicle. And now, this.

I mean, what's the sense of what's happening in the streets in Atlanta?

GALLAGHER: You know, Michael, we've been out in the streets, covering these protests that have been overwhelmingly, exceptionally peaceful since the death of George Floyd. Here, in the city of Atlanta, as well.

And the relationship between Atlanta Police Department and the people who we've talked to was strained before the protests began. And since then, especially with some of those incidents that we have seen, that you describe there, things have gotten worse.

Now look. The mayor and the police chief, who resigned tonight, did receive some credit for quick action. But the action wasn't quick enough. And there were a lot of people we've spoken to, who feel like, let's take, for example, those two college students with that aggressive Tasing that happened.

Four of the six officers involved have been fired. Six were charged with various -- various different charges, ranging from assault to damage of property. But the people here felt like some of that was just for show because they knew that the eyes of the world were on Atlanta because it had been caught on tape.

What we have heard, time and time again, here, in Atlanta and in other cities, when referring to these police departments is, if this is happening on camera, what aren't we seeing?

If it takes video to get action from our people in power, here, in these cities, what happens when it's not caught on tape?

And from each of these protesters, that is the thing that rings true for all of them, that we are seeing more action taking place, over the past few weeks since the death of George Floyd. There appears to be more accountability.

But a lot of them aren't sure if this is something that's going to stick. They feel like it's because there are cameras and there is attention on, at the moment. And so, the relationship with the people who live in Atlanta and the police department was strained beforehand and has simply deteriorated.

And we saw some of that happen tonight, when somebody, here, in Atlanta, Rayshard Brooks, was shot and killed by police. While protests have still continued to go on. There were peaceful protests happening yesterday, before he was shot and killed. So it's never really stopped.

But seeing the turn of events tonight, that is an explosion of anger in this community, Michael. There are people who are angry and upset and feel like it just keeps happening.

And watching the police chief resign today. She had actually received quite a bit of praise from outside of Atlanta when a viral moment happened with her connecting with protesters on that first night that the protests were happening outside of CNN Center here.

And a lot of people said that's what was happening when the cameras were on. We want to see real change when the cameras are off.

HOLMES: Dianne Gallagher in Atlanta, I appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Well, the attorney for the family of Rayshard Brooks is disputing the official version of the events that led up to the shooting. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

L. CHRIS STEWART, BROOKS FAMILY ATTORNEY: They didn't do a sobriety test. There -- there was no count to 100 or whatever it is or walk this line. They said that they were just talking.

[00:10:00] STEWART: And it seemed to be a decent conversation. And then, all of a sudden, one of the officers grabbed him and told him he's under arrest.

So this started from nothing. This wasn't a bank robbery in progress or anything violent. They just told him he was under arrest. And now, I see that they're reporting, oh, it was a suspected DUI. Or he was -- fell asleep blocking the line.

He wasn't blocking the line. And they didn't even do a sobriety test, from what the witnesses, right there, said.

So why was he even under arrest?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Well, the shooting happened, as we know, amid worldwide protests against police violence against blacks, against inequality, against injustice. Here, again, is attorney L. Chris Stewart.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEWART: We can say we want justice but I don't even care. I don't know what that is and I've been doing this 15 years. I don't know what justice is anymore.

Is it getting somebody arrested?

Getting somebody fired?

Having a chief step down?

I know that this isn't justice, what's happening in society right now.

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HOLMES: And Cedric Alexander joins me now. He is the former president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives.

Good to see you. Sorry about the circumstances.

When you look at those videos of how this unfolded and you hear Rayshard's lawyer speak, what do you make of it?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, what we're hearing is just a continuation of what we've been hearing, for the last few weeks, in this country. People are outraged over the number of shootings that are taking place. Certainly, that involve African American men.

And people are angry. People are frightened. People really don't know what to say or do anymore. And that's just what you heard from the victim's attorney. And it's out of frustration that these things are being said.

So we're kind of right back at the same place that we have been for some time. And be some major reform that takes place here pretty soon.

HOLMES: Yes. I guess, you know, it's what's been happening for years, really. It's just sort of bubbled again.

And, you know, I'm wondering, when you look at the video, what are the rules before you open fire?

Because, you know, this man was running away from the officer. He did turn and, it looks like, discharge a Taser but then turned away and kept running.

What -- what do you have to do to open fire?

Don't you have to be fearing for your life or the lives of others?

ALEXANDER: And that's what that officer's going to have to be able to articulate. That, when the victim turned with that Taser, he's going to have to be able to articulate what his fear was about.

And what was he fearful of?

And so those are questions that he is going to have to answer because he was standing -- the officer was in that place, at that time.

But the person who looks and the citizens who look at that piece of video, it creates a great deal of pause and concern for them because the question becomes, was deadly force really needed to be utilized in this particular circumstance?

See, sometimes, you can have something that could be very lawful. But it still can be very awful. And what we have to create is new alternatives, when it comes to deadly force because there may be times officers may have to use deadly force.

But what other alternatives can we give them through training and through opportunities for them to be able to better deescalate a situation?

So that officer's going to have to be able to articulate, to the investigative body, to the DA's office, why he made the decision that he did. But we know, tonight, we have another person that is dead. And people are asking the questions.

Was it really necessary, even under these circumstances?

HOLMES: The Atlanta police chief quit. The mayor has spoken out. But you know, this obviously is not an Atlanta-only problem.

So you know, what does need to happen, at a national level, to -- to -- I was going to say ratchet down these -- no, eliminate these incidents?

What sort of structural reform?

ALEXANDER: Well, we talk reform, first of all, the federal government here, Congress met this week. They had a number of hearings. They are certainly moving forward with some new initiatives and ideas as to how to reform police departments, from the ground up.

But I think those issues also have to be taken up at a state level. And they are being taken up as a state level as they were in New York this week and -- but equally, if not more importantly, a lot of these issues are going to have to be addressed at the local levers -- level by mayors and city managers and those that are in elected positions, who hired these chief and people who vote in sheriffs because there has to be greater accountability.

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ALEXANDER: We have to do more than just write policy. We have to go in and see how we can structurally arrange police departments in a way in which the community have more involvement. They have to be transparent, not just a word we hear a lot of that's thrown around but departments that are truly transparent.

So it's going to require a lot of different ideas. We're going to have to learn from our past experiences. And it's going to be a painful walk forward. But I think, in the end of all this, we'll end up being in a much better position for police and community, to be able to work together and for community to be able to regain trust back in its police across this country.

And that's where we are. That's what we're challenged with. But we're a strong nation. We've been through a lot. And we're going to get through this. But we've got to have some major reform that takes place, that involve everyone.

HOLMES: I think a lot of people watching around the world would be surprised that it is a fact that, in the United States, a lot of law enforcement, sheriffs and the like, are elected and don't go through a sort of system of growing into the job, which is an interesting thing, I think, for a lot of people watching.

Cedric Alexander, got to leave it there. Really appreciate your time. Thank you.

ALEXANDER: Thank you for having me. Thank you.

HOLMES: Well, with the U.S. in turmoil over racism and police brutality. President Trump skirting the issue as he speaks to a new graduating class of military officers. We'll talk about what he is saying and what he is not saying, when we come back.

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HOLMES: Welcome back. This has been the 19th straight day of protects in the U.S., over racial injustice and police brutality. While things have gotten tense in Atlanta after police shot and killed an African American man overnight, many other demonstrations across the country have been peaceful.

Thousands of people marching in New York City, some city council members there, proposing $1 billion in cuts from the New York Police Department. The mayor has already spoken out against that plan.

Let's go to Chicago. Demonstrators using music and dance to help drive home their message. This was called the House Music Peace March to fight injustice and bring the city together.

And several thousand people attended a protest on the campus of Clemson University in South Carolina, members of the school's football team among the speakers.

Well, the U.S. president is avoiding direct references to the issues gripping the entire country right now. On Saturday, he addressed some 1,100 graduates at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, at a socially distanced ceremony.

A group of West Point alumni have been speaking out against the president's threats to use the military to crack down on protesters. They did an online essay that included scathing criticism of cabinet leaders including secretary of state Mike Pompeo and Defense Secretary Mark Esper, who both graduated from West Point.

The alumni group writes in part, this, "We are concerned that fellow graduates serving in senior-level public positions are failing to uphold their oath of office and their commitment to duty, honor, country. Their actions threaten the credibility of an apolitical military."

Want to talk more about the president and West Point with CNN military analyst Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling.

Always good to see you, sir. You are a proud West Point graduate. Your son is, as well, I think.

Was -- was it necessary to pull those lieutenants back for this gathering, in the middle of a pandemic?

As a military man, what was your take on what you saw?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: There were arguments, on both sides of this, Michael. And -- I said, back in April, in a piece for cnn.com, that it would be interesting to watch to see whether or not the juice would be worth the squeeze.

Would there be as much coming out of this as what was being put into it?

Two of the other service academies, Annapolis and the Coast Guard Academies, both did a distance graduation, a virtual graduation. The Air Force Academy did it in person because the cadets had stayed there over spring break and never left the campus.

But you are talking about pulling back over a thousand people through the ports and airports of New York City during the time of the virus. And, in fact, several of them tested positive. About 15 of them tested positive before the ceremony.

The academy did it very well. They did well, what they were asked to do, which was to hold an in-person graduation for the president.

But truthfully, the speech, in my view, was not all that emotional or uplifting for the cadets. There might be some that would think otherwise with the president. But I'm not sure pulling them back for the two weeks of quarantine, basically, for a two-hour ceremony, was the best use of their time.

HOLMES: The president, of course, often, has referred to, you know, his generals. And always is bragging about, quote, "rebuilding the military." Increasingly, though, it would appear those generals or many of them, have backed away from him. A couple, in the administration. And many outside.

Do you think the president's relationship with the military is fraying?

And, if so, why?

HERTLING: It could be, Michael. I think it is, from conversations I've had with colleagues, both in and out of the service. These are more senior ranking individuals. I haven't talked as much to the rank and file, not being part of a formation anymore.

But I'm seeing, certainly, some fraying of the relationship. There have been some senior officers who have attempted to try and persuade and influence the president, in terms of what he should and should not do, in terms of using the military or having them available for photo ops or saying things, like his generals or "my generals."

That's not who we are. We support and defend the Constitution of the United States. We do not serve any one man.

And this seems to be a recurring theme with this president. He has done this, even prior to his election, during his campaign, where he was talking about what he would make the generals do.

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HERTLING: And we're seeing that distancing, in terms of some of the policies and strategies that the generals know are not in the best interest of legal activity.

HOLMES: Yes. Yes. Indeed. You know, it was interesting. He thanked the National Guard for their contribution to, quote, "ensuring peace, safety and the constitutional rule of law" on our streets.

This week, he also said the National Guard, you know, went through protesters like a knife through butter.

As a military man, what -- what goes through your mind, when you hear that?

HERTLING: Well, it -- when I heard that phrase, it was one of the many cringeworthy statements that were made by the president this week. When you're talking about "the butter," it is American citizens. And he is saying that the National Guard, in conjunction with police and others, were going through them like a knife.

That's not what we do to fellow Americans. Certainly, the National Guard were put on the street in order to try and quell the unrest that was going on. They did a very good job, in coordination with local and state police.

But truthfully, for him to say something like that, the same comment about making sure he dominated the streets and -- and used them, in this way, is unfortunate.

This goes in line with some of the stories that are now appearing from members of -- anonymous members of the 82nd Airborne Division immediate response force. They were saying how they anticipated being used, which some of them see that as a very huge conflict with what soldiers vow to protect and defend.

HOLMES: Yes. Absolutely. Mark, always good to see you. Thank you, General.

HERTLING: Good to see you, Michael. Thank you.

HOLMES: Good to see you, too.

We're going to take a short break. When we come back on CNN NEWSROOM, we will return to Atlanta, as protests escalate over another deadly police shooting. We'll have much more, after the break.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.

HOLMES: And welcome back to CNN NEWSROOM with me, Michael Holmes. Let's update you now on the breaking news.

Another show of fury and frustration after yet another killing of a black man by police. This is the Atlanta restaurant -- show it to you now -- where Rayshard Brooks was shot and killed Friday night. You can see it, in flames, after a protest there turned violent.

Let's have a look at that same Wendy's a little earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES (voice-over): You can hear in the background there, glass shattering. People breaking the windows. They got in and obviously the fire followed. Police had, earlier, fired tear gas at the crowd. The police chief, meanwhile, is out. Resigning on Saturday. The whole thing began when police responded to calls about a man

reportedly asleep in his car outside that Wendy's. Authorities say the man, 27-year-old Rayshard Brooks, failed a field sobriety test and then, got into a struggle with the officers.

CNN has obtained eyewitness video of that struggle. A warning to our viewers. It is disturbing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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HOLMES (voice-over): Now what you see there is police grappling with Brooks. Georgia officials say, during that scuffle, Brooks grabbed one of the officers' Tasers before breaking free. And, in the video, you can see police running after him.

There he gets up and he has the Taser in hand. Pulls away. And, in the video, you can see him running off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now Georgia officials released surveillance footage of the incident, as well. It gives you a broader view and we'll show it to you. It is, of course, disturbing as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES (voice-over): And you see Brooks running there, to the right of the screen, from police. He does turn, appear to discharge that Taser, in the direction of the officers. Turns around. Runs away, again and is fatally shot. The officer who shot Brooks. He's been fired. The other officer has been placed on administrative duty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: CNN law enforcement analyst Charles Ramsey joins me now. He was also the police commissioner in Philadelphia and police chief in Washington.

So good to have your -- your voice of experience on this. I mean, I guess, one of the things that's important to remember, I suppose, this is a call about a man asleep in a car at a fast food restaurant. And, now, he is dead.

What does the video tell you, when you look at it?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, there's two different videos that we've seen. One shows a struggle between Mr. Brooks and two police officers. One had a Taser in his hand. Mr. Brooks was able to wrestle the Taser away from him and take off running.

The officers gave pursuit. The one officer who lost the Taser is closest to him. At some point in time, Brooks turns, with the Taser in his hand, it looks like he may have fired it. You see a flash. Can't tell if that's a reflection or he actually discharged it.

And shortly thereafter, the officer actually shot him. And so, those are the two videos that I have seen. Now there could be other angles, other videos. But those are the two specific videos that I have seen.

HOLMES: You know, I -- I -- I guess, at the end of the day, despite what came before, the suspect -- he was running away at the time the shots were being fired.

What are the rules before you open fire as a police officer?

Do you not have to be fearing for your life or the lives of others?

RAMSEY: Yes. You have to be in fear of your life or the life of another. And that fear has to be imminent. Now some jurisdictions have changed that to immediate. In other words, right now. There's no -- it might happen in a few seconds or whatever. I mean, you have to be, just immediately, in fear of life.

I don't know the use-of-force policy in Atlanta. But the bigger issue is the fact that he had a Taser. You knew he had a Taser. Tasers are less lethal weapons. They're not deadly weapons.

And if he did discharge it, it would no longer be useful to him because it would have to recycle. The prongs would still be extended and you'd have to get it ready to fire again. So I don't know why he shot.

I mean, these things happen in just a matter of seconds. And we have the benefit of watching video, over and over again. But it does seem that the use of force may, in fact, not have been necessary.

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RAMSEY: And those are the three things you look for in a use-of- deadly-force case.

Was it necessary?

Was it reasonable?

And was it proportional?

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: I'm not a police officer. But -- yes. I'm no police officer but, you know, when I look at the firing of the weapon, it appears to have not been in a very disciplined way. I mean, he is pulling it out. He's off balance and just seems to raise it and shoot, without much deliberation.

I mean, did the officer's action reflect good training, in your view?

RAMSEY: Well, you know, these are in-the-moment types of situations. The thing I kind of questioned, he had his Taser in the hand during the wrestling. He may have been trying to use what they call a drive stun, which is a pain-compliance technique, where you actually discharge right on the body.

And it makes -- you know, the electric shock causes pain which then, in turn, can cause you to be able to bring a suspect into custody.

But again, I mean, Atlanta is a police force, as far as I know, that is well-trained. But the training doesn't always translate into how it's -- how it's carried out, on the street. I don't know all the circumstances. But I would think that this officer has a problem, in terms of justifying use of deadly force.

HOLMES: There's been a lot of talk, of course, in recent weeks about the word "deescalation." I mean, that just did not seem to happen here.

What -- what -- what should have happened, as these things unfolded?

Particularly, sure, he discharges the Taser. But then, he turns away and is running.

What should have happened to make this not end in a death?

RAMSEY: Well, when you say "deescalation," the one video that I would like to see is what happened during the first, the initial encounter, when they first came upon him when he was still in his car.

Now my understanding is the officers had a body camera on. If that's the case, it should have picked that up. That's where deescalation is how you approach it originally.

I mean, what got them into a tussle to begin with?

I mean, that's a question. So if we know that, then maybe things could have been handled a little bit different at the very beginning. I don't know the answer to that right now. But certainly, it led to tragic consequences.

So they're going to look at everything; the Georgia Bureau of Investigation has the case. I know they do good work. I've seen their work before. And they will, certainly, let the cards fall where they may, as it relates to this -- this particular case.

HOLMES: CNN law enforcement analyst Charles Ramsey. Thank you so much. Really appreciate you taking the time.

RAMSEY: Thank you.

HOLMES: The debate continues over whether to pull down Confederate statues in the United States. We take a look at what some cities are doing and how others might follow.

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HOLMES: Welcome back.

The nationwide movement against police brutality and racism, also, reopening a long debate over removing Confederate symbols.

Could we be at that turning point?

CNN's Abby Phillip reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PROTESTERS: Black Lives Matter.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A national reckoning on race could now mean the end for the last remaining symbols of America's dark history of slavery.

In cities across the South, statues venerating military leaders of the Confederacy are crashing down. After the killing of George Floyd protests have swept the nation and prompted fresh soul searching.

MARC MORIAL, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE: I believe it is a sea change. And it's a long overdue movement against hate and racism in this country.

PHILLIP: It's the very issue that drew a group of white protesters including white supremacists and militia members to Charlottesville, Virginia, nearly three years ago. But today a massive shift.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's time to heal, ladies and gentlemen, Richmond is no longer the capital of the Confederacy.

PHILLIP: Virginia's governor seeking to remove an enormous landmark that commemorates the Confederate Army commander, Robert E. Lee.

REV. ROBERT W. LEE, GENERAL ROBERT E. LEE'S DESCENDANT: He was a man of his time who fought to continue the enslavement of black people. And in so doing set our nation on a course towards destruction.

PHILLIP: The Marine Corps banning the public display of the Confederate battle flag and even NASCAR following suit, saying fans will no longer be allowed to fly that flag in the stands.

BUBBA WALLACE, RACE CAR DRIVER: No one should feel uncomfortable when they come to a NASCAR race. So it starts with Confederate flags. Get them out of here, they have no place for them.

PHILLIP: The changes are also sweeping through pop culture. On Thursday, the popular country group Lady Antebellum announcing a change of their name to Lady A, telling their fans we can make no excuse for our lateness to this realization that the name referred to the pre-Civil War period that included slavery.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "GONE WITH THE WIND")

HATTIE MCDANIEL, ACTOR, "MAMMY": You've been brave so long, Miss Scarlett.

(END VIDEO CLIP, "GONE WITH THE WIND")

PHILLIP: HBO Max saying it has temporarily removed the film "Gone with the Wind" and will return to the platform with materials putting that period of history into context.

And now a push from military leaders to strip the names of rebel generals from military bases.

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: I don't have an emotional attachment to the names of those bases.

PHILLIPS: Former Army General David Petraeus writing, "It is time to remove the names of traitors like Benning and Bragg from our country's most important military installations."

But there is also staunch resistance beginning with President Trump who tweeted that the bases represent a history of winning, victory and freedom and he would not even consider renaming them.

Trump warning his party not to fall for a bipartisan amendment introduced in the Senate to remove the Confederate names. But it may be too late as some Republican lawmakers say the time for change has come.

SEN. MIKE ROUNDS (R-SD): We don't want to forget what's happened in the past but at the same time that doesn't mean that we should continue with those bases, with the names of individuals who fought against our country.

PHILLIP: Now the amendment that President Trump decried on Confederate names has already passed with bipartisan support out of a Senate committee. It now potentially faces another vote in the full Senate.

Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell actually ignored reporters' questions on this issue.

But many Republicans will quickly have to decide, will they stand with President Trump on this issue?

Or will they vote to remove the names of Confederate generals from military installations all across the country? -- Abby Phillip, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Here to discuss this further is Sarah Bronin. She is a professor of historic preservation law at the University of Connecticut.

Great to have you on, Professor. It's an important conversation to have. I mean, generally, those who lose the war don't get statues. I mean, in 2020, it seems extraordinary that not just statues, flags, the Confederate flag, military base names and things like that, that honor the Confederacy still exist.

Why -- why do you think that is so?

[00:45:00]

SARAH BRONIN, UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT: Well, first, thank you for having me. And, you know, these are legacy names, names that -- that -- that were given to these bases so many years ago. And this really is time to change them. So I really applaud what the protesters are doing.

HOLMES: What -- what do you think they have lingered for?

I mean, is it a misunderstanding of the symbolism?

What they represent?

Our failure to understand that the Confederacy was about preserving slavery?

Or do you think, perhaps, there's an underlying support, among some, for them?

BRONIN: Well, if you look at the history of how some of these monuments and -- and naming rights came about, it really started in -- just after Reconstruction. There was another crop of these monuments being erected and places being named for Confederate generals in the 1900s to 1920s.

And then, there was really a third period, around the 100th anniversary of the Civil War and around the time when civil rights became very vibrant, the movement in this country.

So it really was, at all of those points in time, a backlash against African Americans asserting their rights. And, in that way, these monuments were very intentional. They've endured because I think people have not been able to get through to some of those in charge of -- of these -- these places, that -- that they're very hateful symbols and they represent racism and they should be eliminated.

HOLMES: Yes. I think you're absolutely right. A lot of people don't realize they weren't thrown up after the war to honor generals. They were thrown up as part of Jim Crow, to do exactly the opposite.

I mean, it's remarkable, I think, how many Confederate symbols remain in the U.S. I mean, the Civil War ended 150 years ago and I was reading, the Southern Poverty Law Center says there is still more than 700 monuments honoring the losing side. And then, there's -- there's grade schools, colleges, cities, counties, named after rebel leaders. And then, those 10 Army bases, notably, too.

There is a lot out there, aren't there?

BRONIN: Absolutely, hundreds of physical manifestations of this claim to white supremacy over -- over everyone else. But also, as you point out, roads that are named after Confederate

generals, schools, parts of university campuses, even there are some mountains that are named after some of these -- these traitors, I think is the word that your previous guest used. So it's -- it's rampant. And, in fact, it's not just in the south.

HOLMES: Do you see this finally -- do you see this as a turning point?

I mean, we're talking a lot about turning points lately.

Could this be one?

Because they've survived other complaints in the past.

BRONIN: Indeed. And the law has evolved to -- to, in some ways, reinforce the -- the supremacy that's contained in these statutes.

In fact, use Alabama as an example. In 2017, was when Alabama passed a law called the Alabama Memorial Preservation Act, that protected these statues from being removed by local governments.

And you are seeing how that's playing out today, just a few years later, with the mayors of Birmingham and Mobile, declaring that their statues are coming down or already having taken them down and then, the state coming in and suing them.

So you are seeing the conflict that continues to emerge between states, local governments and even the federal level, as -- as you mentioned in your report.

HOLMES: Does seem to be a time of shifting opinion. Sarah Bronin, Professor, I really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

BRONIN: Yes, absolutely. Thank you.

HOLMES: Take a quick break here. When we come back, with the calls to defund and disband police departments growing louder and louder, we look at one city that did just that. And what lessons could be learned. We'll be right back.

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[00:50:00]

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HOLMES: Across the U.S., some are calling for police departments to have their budgets cut or completely disbanded at one extreme. The Camden, New Jersey, Police Department was disbanded in 2012 because of rampant corruption and entirely replaced. Police and residents say things have changed.

So can it work in other cities? Here's CNN's Gary Tuchman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Did you disband the Camden Police Department?

SCOTT THOMSON, RETIRED POLICE CHIEF, CAMDEN COUNTY, NEW JERSEY: Yes. And so in at the end of 2012. In early 2013, every member of the Camden City Police Department was fired, including myself. And a new police force called the Camden County Police Force was created and it was staffed.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Scott Thomson is the recently retired police chief. The disbanded city police force met no more police union and the ability to make new work directives. The union is now back, but the work directives and new traditions remain innovative like this.

(CROSSTALK)

TUCHMAN: Serving barbecue or ice cream is a regular feature of the community oriented policing that is done here in Camden.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fair am I, can you high five me?

TUCHMAN: For the nearly 400 cops in the city of roughly 77,000, are expected to walk the streets and personally get to know those they are policing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's our future recruit right there.

TUCHMAN: Crime is still a problem here, but violent crime is way down since a high point in 2012 when the City Police Department was disbanded. Homicides down by about 63 percent as of last year. And the Department says excessive force complaints against police are down 95 percent. All amid this directive.

THOMSON: You will use force as an absolute last resort and you will deescalate. There must be an attempt to deescalate a situation prior to using force.

TUCHMAN: This video from a few years back shows an example of that policy. A man flailing a knife inside a store. He continued doing so outside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the knife.

TUCHMAN: It's a dangerous situation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the knife.

TUCHMAN: But police stayed calm and let it play out on the downtown streets. It looks like a bizarre parade.

THOMSON: They envelop the individual and they walk five city blocks without using deadly force. TUCHMAN: The suspect was safely apprehended.

[00:55:00]

TUCHMAN: There's another very notable principle to abide by if you're a Camden County police officer. And that is you're mandated to notify a supervisor if a fellow cop violates any of these directives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to intervene, that officers do something wrong at that moment, it is your job, because if not yours wrong as an officer, that's good.

TUCHMAN: So one of these two guys, I know you guys wouldn't do this, but heard someone and they were being peaceful. He would report them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would, I would probably take the badge right off his chest at that moment because it says service to yourself. And he's not carrying (INAUDIBLE) through that.

TUCHMAN: And you do the same thing to him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes sir, absolutely sir. I expect nothing less.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): This reimagine police force gets a lot of attention here.

(on-camera): You've heard what's going on in the country right now with cops?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

TUCHMAN: Do you think you're cops here in Camden are different?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, they are very different. They treat us nice, light. And they're very cool with us.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): There is criticism, though, that the Camden County police force doesn't have enough minority officers, isn't transparent enough and may not be responsible for the crime drop.

Kevin Barfield is the President of the local NAACP.

KEVIN BARFIELD, PRESIDENT, CAMDEN COUNTY NAACP: The crime statistics have been going down throughout the state of New Jersey and has been going down within the nation. So I would not credit that with the policing programs that have or supposed to be taking place right now.

TUCHMAN: The former police chief says the department can improve while keeping its principles.

THOMSON: I think that most of the police officers here, get it. Every once in a while, we get one that doesn't. And we move swiftly and with certainty to remove them from the force.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).

TUCHMAN: Gary Tuchman, CNN, Camden, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: I'm Michael Holmes, another hour of CNN NEWSROOM after the break. Stick around, I'll see you on the other side.