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Coronavirus Cases Continue to Rise in 35 States; Michael Cohen Returns to Prison; Supreme Court Rules on Trump Tax Cases. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired July 09, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Chelsea Alionar, thank you so much.

CHELSEA ALIONAR, CORONAVIRUS PATIENT: Thank you.

KEILAR: It's the top of the hour now, I'm Brianna Keilar. And coronavirus is sweeping the nation. New developments are prompting the nation's top infectious disease expert to call for some states to pause on reopening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: California, Texas, Florida, Arizona are now experiencing surges of infections that have gone up to 30,000, 40, 50 and most recently a total of 60,000 new cases per day. We need to get our arms around that, Steve (ph), and we need to do something about it quickly because if we don't, there's a possibility we may be seeing surges in other areas. So we're in a very difficult, challenging period.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: The United States reported at least 58,601 new cases just yesterday, which is not the highest tally that we've seen this week in a day. Thirty-five states are experiencing a rise in infections, when you look at the seven-day averages, and the hotspot states are again facing numbers that should sound major alarms: too many patients, not enough beds, not enough equipment. And we're going to get into all of that in just a moment.

But first, we have some news out of Florida, which is rapidly becoming the epicenter for the U.S. pandemic. The state just released new figures that show the virus is spreading rapidly. It is deadly, and hospitals cannot keep up. CNN's Erica Hill is joining me now.

And, Erica, Florida is really reporting, just now, a disturbing number of deaths from coronavirus.

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. In fact, Florida today, reporting its single-day high for COVID-19 deaths, Brianna, 120 reported this morning. That's on top of nearly 9,000 new cases.

And keep in mind, what we're really looking at here -- hospitalization rates and the positivity rate. As we know, the state of Florida does not release its hospital data, as many other states do. It doesn't release it in the same way, although we are seeing it from some of the counties, Miami-Dade specifically.

But when we look at that positivity rate in the Sunshine State, it's hovering around 19 percent, and that is not what anyone wants to see.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HILL (voice-over): From beaches to bars, the coronavirus is on the move.

ROSS GOLDBERG, PRESIDENT, ARIZONA MEDICAL ASSOCIATION: We all hoped for a flattening and a stabilization. We haven't seen it yet --

HILL (voice-over): Hospitalizations, rising in several states. Deaths, also up. California, Florida, and Texas, posting new daily highs.

FAUCI: We've got to get our arms around this.

HILL (voice-over): So how can the U.S. get the virus under control? Masks, social distancing and a reality check.

FAUCI: Take care of and control what's surging now in the southern states. And the other states, be mindful of what happens when you open up and throw caution to the wind. Because it could happen to you.

HILL (voice-over): Louisiana, an early hotspot, seeing new spikes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have lost all the gains made in June.

HILL (voice-over): In Kentucky, new cases jumped 40 percent in the last week. In Oklahoma, they're up 45 percent, hospitals reaching their limits. And not just in Florida and Arizona.

LOUANN WOODWARD, VICE CHANCELLOR, UNIVERSITY OF MISSISSIPPI MEDICAL CENTER: We are having right now -- right now -- our largest surge of patients.

HILL (voice-over): Even in states holding steady, like Maryland, there is concern.

GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R-MD): We are seeing a spike with people under 35, younger people are tending to completely ignore the rules and not wear masks, not recognize social distancing and crowd together in different places.

HILL (voice-over): In New York State, the early epicenter, less than one percent of tests are now positive for the virus, sliver of hope amid grim numbers in the new hotspots. Positivity rates, skyrocketing in Arizona, Texas and Florida.

ALI KHAN, DEAN, COLLEGE OF PUBLIC HEALTH, UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA MEDICAL CENTER: This is an outbreak that's uncontained, in freefall.

HILL (voice-over): The president, falsely claiming the spike in cases is due to more testing. ANDY SLAVITT, FORMER ACTING ADMINISTRATOR, CENTERS FOR MEDICARE AND

MEDICAID SERVICES: We have likely eight to 10 more times more people getting cases every day than can get tested. So this is both a failure of containment, it's a failure to test, and of course it's a failure to tell the truth.

HILL (voice-over): Mixed messaging continues to define the federal response to the pandemic. The latest example? Schools.

ALBERTO CARVALHO, SUPERINTENDENT, MIAMI-DADE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS: We are ready, willing and able to open once we transition to phase two. We want to make decisions in Miami-Dade that are health-based, that are science-based, not necessarily politically grounded.

HILL (voice-over): After the president railed on CDC guidelines for reopening schools, calling them too tough and expensive, the CDC pushed back.

DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: So our guidelines are our guidelines.

HILL (voice-over): Guidelines desperately needed amid growing uncertainty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: Brianna, in terms of guidelines, the American Academy of Pediatrics has said that it would be great if kids could learn in- person, physically be present at schools this fall if it can be done safely.

[14:05:05]

Well, the president of that organization, just saying in an interview with NPR that when it comes to Florida, the statewide mandate there to reopen, quote, "without consideration of community spread really goes against our recommendations," noting that the level of virus in the community should be taken into account when deciding how to move forward with schools. And of course in Florida, that's not even in the fall, that's just in a matter of weeks -- Brianna -- in August.

KEILAR: All right, Erica Hill, thank you so much for that.

I want to turn now to CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. You know, Sanjay, I think a lot of people are wondering this, how did the U.S. get to this point? What did we miss?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I mean, it's interesting, Brianna. I've covered this from the start, we all have. I think if there was a unifying reason, I think that this pandemic in this country was minimized. It's been minimized from the start, and I think everything else has sort of followed from that in terms of things that were or were not done. We just didn't take this seriously.

I think the obvious thing to point to is sort of testing. There was a sort of flawed test in the beginning, that has been discussed, you know, quite a bit. But I think it's since then, what has really happened.

First, Brianna, let me just show you the numbers -- I know you know these, but just -- if you look at three million people now infected in this country, the first million were infected in 99 days. The next million, in 43 days. And the million after that, in 28 days. It just shows you that not only are the numbers growing, but they're growing at a more rapid pace.

But if you -- if we didn't test enough in the beginning, there was much more widespread virus in the community than I think people would realize, could have realized because we weren't testing. And by the time we started testing, we were in the middle of a significant epidemic in this country.

We thought there were just handfuls of cases here and there, and now we know it was a lot more than that, we just didn't have eyes on it because of the lack of testing.

KEILAR: So I wonder what you think when you see, like, the president's tweet earlier today. He said, for the 1/100th time -- I think he meant for the hundredth time -- "The reason we show many cases, so many cases compared to other countries that haven't done nearly as well as we have, is that our testing is much bigger and better." What do you think?

GUPTA: I mean, that's simply not true, that is simply not true. I don't even, frankly, like talking about it anymore because it keeps raising it as being possibly true, it's not.

KEILAR: Yes, it's not true.

GUPTA: If you test more, as other countries did, the numbers should have come down. You're seeing significant positivity rates, which just basically says, Hey, we're not testing nearly enough to actually know what's going on in these communities. Positivity rates -- again, Brianna, as you well know -- going up in a lot of places.

If you get to basically five to 10 positive tests out of 100, then you start to get an inclination from a statistics standpoint that you're getting enough testing, your surveillance, enough.

Still can't get tested. I can tell you, Brianna, just personal experience, my wife and daughters went to go get tested the other day, took them 4.5, five hours to get tested. I mean --

KEILAR: Really?

GUPTA: -- it's hard to get tested still. Yes, it's still hard to get tested, there's still a lot of places where, you know, you can't get it at all, it's even hard in some places for health care workers to get tested. So, yes, we've increased the amount of testing, but we also have the worst epidemic in the world in our country. The amount of testing that you need to do is reflected by how bad the problem is, and we're still not doing enough testing. KEILAR: And you know, I think one of the most frustrating parts of all

of this is that it's almost like magical thinking is ruling this, right? We saw so many states opening when you were looking at their graphs, you were seeing that the cases were on the rise. And you think, OK, you're going to open? I mean, what do you think is going to happen, right? What --

GUPTA: Right.

KEILAR: -- we've seen what's happened.

GUPTA: No, and you know, the gating criteria -- which I think, you know, everyone has probably forgotten and it got thrown out the window almost as soon as they were released -- the gating criteria were important, Brianna.

I remember when these first were released by the Task Force at the White House, I thought to myself, Well, you know, this looks promising. If states meet this, if you have downward trend for 14 days, forget the absolute numbers, it means that you're going to get it to a low enough number, and a low enough amount of virus in the community that you can start to get your arms around it.

You can start to contact trace, you actually -- it's feasible to find the people who are newly positive, isolate them and find their contacts and quarantine them. That would have been a very, very good sort of development, if states had met that.

When we go back and look, Brianna, now, at every state -- every state -- none of them actually met these criteria precisely, that had all those things in place. I'm not saying it would have been easy to do, but had we done that -- right? -- I'm talking middle of May time frame, you know, more than a month and a half ago time frame -- I guarantee you, we'd be in a very different position right now, very different.

[14:10:01]

There are countries around the world where you've had -- you know, you count the number of people who have died in terms of seven 10, 12, 15 people as opposed to hundreds of thousands, as we're counting them in this country. This could have been the situation.

And I'm not going to look in the rearview mirror too much, but now we have to go back and basically apply a more aggressive treatment. If it was a stage one cancer before, now it is metastasized in other parts of the body. It's still treatable -- I believe -- but it's going to require more aggressive treatment.

KEILAR: And contact tracing, Sanjay? I mean, we've been talking with our Rosa Flores in the hard-hit Miami area, and she has been trying to get questions answered on contact tracing there to no avail, it's incredibly frustrating, just to see her questioning officials. Where are we with that, and is it too late?

GUPTA: Well, you know, I don't like to think anything is too late. But here's the pragmatic challenge, Brianna, is that if you're thinking about, you know, 50, 60,000 newly infected people a day, you think about the fact that all those people then have to be contacted, they have to be told to be isolated, some of them may not have an easy time being isolated, they may need to be put in hotel rooms, they may need to have other ancillary services.

And then after that, you've got to basically ask them, Who do you think your contacts were over the last few days? And then you've got to go trace those contacts. It's laborious, hard work. I mean, it just -- it takes a lot of work for people to make those calls.

A lot of times, if you get a call from the government, you may not answer that phone call, so then people have to go to the house or the apartment or whatever and track people down. And I'm talking 50, 60,000 people a day.

So here's the point, is that, you know, we thought maybe you'd need a couple hundred thousand contact tracers in this country in order to do it effectively? That was under a scenario where you had some sense of the numbers going down and being able to get your arms around it. Now, the numbers just keep going up, making it more challenging.

KEILAR: Yes. Dr. Gupta, thank you so much, as always.

And just a reminder that you are going to be joining Anderson Cooper tonight. You guys are hosting a live coronavirus town hall, and you have a special guest, the director of the CDC, Dr. Robert Redfield. So that's going to be a very important program that starts at 8:00 Eastern.

Breaking news, President Trump's former fixer and personal attorney Michael Cohen has been taken back into custody, just weeks after leaving prison for house arrest. Shimon Prokupecz is following all of this for us.

And I mean, I wonder if it's the reason that we saw, Shimon. We'd seen that he'd actually gone out, doing what a lot of people aren't even doing, which is going out to dine at a restaurant.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Right, so there was that, and let's remind folks that he was released early from prison, from a prison in Upstate New York, because of the coronavirus epidemic. There were health concerns, they made a case to the Bureau of Prisons that he should be released. And so they went ahead and released him back in May, it was around May 21st that he was released.

He was supposed to stay in prison until around November of 2021, so he got out about 18 months early. What we don't exactly know is why the Bureau of Prisons -- the probation department, actually -- decided that he should be detained again.

What his lawyer tells us is that he was ordered to appear at the Federal Courthouse in Lower Manhattan, to meet with the Probation Department, and that they wanted him to sign some kind of agreement not to speak to the media, not to do any kind of social media. And he took issue with that. And perhaps as a result of that, that is why he has been detained

again. And what his lawyer says is that he's been detained, he's been taken to the federal prison -- the federal jail, actually, in Brooklyn, the MDC, and that is where he is.

So we don't have exact clarity on why he was detained. Did he violate the conditions? As you said, he was seen recently dining out on the Upper East Side, sitting outside, eating at a restaurant as though he was just a free man and can do whatever he wants.

There are conditions when you're released early, so we're trying to find out if that is what happened here, that he violated some of these conditions and that is why he was detained.

The other thing, it comes on a day when we have the Supreme Court ruling on these taxes regarding the president with the Manhattan D.A.'s office. Michael Cohen has been cooperating in that investigation, he's been meeting with prosecutors from that office about the taxes. They actually went to the prison to visit Michael Cohen, to spend time with him and talk to him.

So all of this happening today. So we need to learn more on exactly why he -- what conditions he violated and why the Probation Department decided to take him back into custody. And we're working to find out exactly why.

KEILAR: Do you know why he might not want to adhere to guidelines from the Probation Office when it comes to media and social media? I mean, it doesn't really seem like he has the upper hand here.

PROKUPECZ: Right, he doesn't. And they did him the favor, right? He went and he said, I am concerned about the coronavirus, I should be released early. And they agreed to it. So you would think, when you get that kind of early release, you do everything the Probation Department, the Bureau of Prisons orders you to do.

[14:15:06]

What his lawyers said is that they presented him with agreement. And his lawyer says that most people don't get to see -- and he was reading some paragraph from this agreement -- and he basically felt that it was violating his rights. And that perhaps could be why he didn't want to sign it.

So we need more clarification on exactly why. But the point is, he's back right now, in jail, sitting in Brooklyn, back behind bars now.

KEILAR: Yeah, all right, Shimon, thank you so much. We know that you're in the middle of this story, so you'll keep digging. Thank you.

A Republican lawmaker in Ohio tells people to stop getting tested. A mayor from his district will join me, live.

Plus, Germany's Angela Merkel with a pretty blunt warning about President Trump's way of handling the coronavirus. And breaking news from the Supreme Court, the justices unanimously

rejecting the president's argument of immunity over his tax returns. But in practice, he also had a win today.

This is CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:20:28]

KEILAR: We have breaking news. The Supreme Court, just hours ago, rejecting President Trump's claim that he is completely immune from all criminal prosecution while in office. But today's monumental court rulings do keep the president's financial records private, at least for now.

The justices were looking at two separate cases. They voted in favor of a New York prosecutor's efforts to subpoena Trump's tax returns and other financial materials, which was part of a wider investigation into whether the president or his business violated state laws. So that investigation can move forward, but records will be shielded from the public under grand jury secrecy rules.

In a separate ruling, the court determined that Congress could not see the president's financial records right away, and sent that matter down to the lower courts to assess separation of powers concerns. The vote there in both cases? Seven to two. And Chief Justice Roberts wrote both majority opinions.

The president -- no surprise -- is blasting these decisions.

I want to bring in CNN political commentator Michael Smerconish, who is the host of "SMERCONISH" here on CNN. Michael, we've been waiting to see what the Supreme Court would decide here. What did you think about this ruling, which was actually pretty nuanced?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR, "SMERCONISH": I think it's pretty confusing, and I think that you did an excellent job in laying it out. There were two different cases. One was from three congressional committees, the other from the Southern District of New York.

And, Brianna, the one that I think posed the more immediate risk to the president was from the three congressional committees. Because if the ruling had been that they would have access to his tax returns, then I think before Election Day, we the public, we the press would have seen that information.

I don't think that he was ever at risk in the Southern District case, of that information getting into the public domain before the election. As a practical matter -- as you pointed out -- it means the public likely won't see his tax returns before everybody votes.

I'll just add this footnote. I feel as if we've already seen -- or at least have learned -- what's in them because there was some excellent reporting, a year ago by "The New York Times," that said, from the mid-'80s to the mid-'90s, he took more than a billion dollars of losses -- lawful, legal as well -- as far as we know -- and therefore didn't have to pay taxes.

My hunch is, that practice probably continued further in time, and that's what would prove embarrassing to the president, if we actually saw it in a return.

KEILAR: Yes, because it would undercut -- right? -- this idea that he's been a successful businessman, because certainly the tax information that we have seen shows, at least in that time period in question, he was not.

So you were watching -- we always want to know, you know, the president's nominated two justices to the court, how did they vote, right? Well, the two of them -- Justices Gorsuch and Kavanaugh -- voted against him. Do you think that's really significant or do you think that people are kind of like making too much of that?

SMERCONISH: I think it's significant. I mean, what was unusual about these votes -- as you've pointed out -- is that we've grown accustomed to a five-to-four along ideological line type of a vote. This is not one where ideology plays mush of a factor.

But I like -- you know, as an attorney, I like when we see decisions that are not strictly based upon the party of those who appointed the justice, because I think that's what they're there for, independent thinking. And, frankly, every time there's a 5-4 decision, my view is to say, Well, hell, we could have let Congress decide that one.

KEILAR: The president, Michael, has responded to reports that he was tanking on purpose recently. He said that he wants to be re-elected with all his breath. Do you believe him?

SMERCONISH: Brianna, the sort of tumult that seems to occur in this White House on a routine basis, I suspect would keep both of us up at night. He seems to thrive on it, you know? I mean, the more chaos, the more he seems as if he's engaged.

So I've never bought into the idea that he was poised to walk away from it. I think the rougher that it gets, the more that he digs in his heels.

KEILAR: Yes, I think you're right. It's almost like what some people look at and say, Gosh, that's exhausting, energizes him. So thank you --

SMERCONISH: Correct.

KEILAR: -- Michael, so much. We really appreciate you coming on.

And also, just a pitch for your special this weekend, CNN presents "THINGS I WISH I KNEW BEFORE I STARTED TALKING." This is an entertaining and poignant look at Michael's one-of-a-kind career. That is Saturday night at 10:00 Eastern. Thank you so much, Michael Smerconish.

[14:25:15] And the street along New York City's Fifth Avenue in front of Trump Tower is closed to traffic today as the words "Black Lives Matter" are painted on the president's doorstep, essentially. CNN's Polo Sandoval is on the scene for us.

Tell us what's happening.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the location of this, Brianna, is certainly not a coincidence. The City of New York, along with volunteers, coming together on this stretch of Fifth Avenue this morning, right in front of Trump Tower, as you mentioned, an painted those three words that we've seen painted in American cities across the country. That is, "Black Lives Matter."

We should note that the president, the first lady actually officially relocated their residence to Florida last year. However, Trump Tower still remains perhaps one of the most famous Trump buildings in Manhattan, still certainly represents the Trump organization. So that's one of the reasons why they specifically chose this here.

I did speak to New Yorkers all morning, and you do get a sense that there is this wide support for this effort that's spearheaded by Mayor Bill de Blasio. Many people feel that it's about time.

I spoke to one black New Yorker, who pulled her bike over and watched as they were painting this, said that she was feeling proud to see this, recognizes this is an important moment, the fact that it's on Fifth Avenue, sort of the retail hub of Manhattan -- or at least one of them.

But, still, more needs to be done. That being said, Brianna, there were about a handful of people I did see walk by, shaking their head. One gentleman in particular says he did not want to see this ,he does not agree with many of the points that this movement is trying to make.

But again, largely, there is a lot of support especially among New Yorkers -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Polo, thank you so much for showing us that ,live for us from New York.

An Ohio State lawmaker is calling for people to stop getting tested for coronavirus. Republican State Representative Nino Vitale posed his reasoning in the form of a question in a post on Facebook.

Quote, "Are you tired of living in a dictatorship yet?" He was complaining about the mask mandate, which just went into effect. He listed out the seven counties affected by the health order. And wrote at the bottom, "Never get tested."

Vitale has said that he won't wear a mask because it dishonors God. I want to bring in Ben Stahler now, he's the mayor of Bellefontaine, which is in Vitale's district.

Mayor, when you heard your state lawmaker calling for people never to get tested, what did you think?

MAYOR BEN STAHLER (D-OH), BELLEFONTAINE: Well, thanks, Brianna, for asking.

In addition to being mayor of my community, I'm a pharmacist of 35 years. So I listen more to things like how the virus works, the epidemiology. I'm listening to science. I think Representative Vitale is posturing a bit more on politics.

I agree with a few of his comments, but I can't stand behind what he's posted. And in fact, our governor has really repositioned himself. I think he's been very proactive, and Ohio will have to stand on its history.

But now, we're looking at each individual county instead of the state as a one-size-fits-all. And so I like what's happening from our governor's office. And I don't agree with Representative Vitale.

KEILAR: You said you agree with some of his comments, though? Did I hear you right?

STAHLER: Well, he talks about -- you know, there's -- whether people who are perfectly healthy, some people are curious and they feel like they need testing. So I believe that he doesn't want to test anybody. Well, that I can't agree with that.

So I guess I could see sometimes his logic, but people who certainly feel ill or their physical recommends they're tested, they should be. People that work in the health care community, first responders, there's a lot of people that need testing, if they don't feel poorly today, we need to know if those people are out there on the frontlines.

But people who are just curious, I wonder if I have COVID, I don't think the testing is for those folks. So that's where we may agree to disagree.

We also agree that all businesses are essential. There was a day in Ohio where we divided businesses into essential and nonessential, and really, that was divisive, but I don't think we're there anymore.

KEILAR: Do you wear a mask regularly? You're a pharmacist. Like you said, you follow science. What is your personal practice?

STAHLER: I do. So my personal practice begins with social distancing. I think there's great science between standing X number of feet, whether it's six feet away. Outdoors, you can probably be a little closer.