Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

White House Push to Discredit Dr. Anthony Fauci; 'Large Number' of U.S. Marines Test Positive in Japan; WHO Team in China Investigating COVID-19 Origins; South Africa Battles Gender-Based Violence; Schools Around the World Reopen Amid COVID-19 Threat; English Football Star Talks About Online Racism. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired July 13, 2020 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. I'm Michael Holmes.

[00:00:40]

Ahead here on CNN NEWSROOM, as coronavirus cases skyrocket in the U.S., the White House tries to discredit its own widely respected infectious disease expert.

Controversy over reopening schools. Everyone wants to do it, but how do you determine when it's safe?

And dueling pandemics. South Africa battles COVID-19 and staggering cases of violence against women.

Welcome everyone. The World Health Organization says a staggering 230,000 cases of coronavirus were reported around the world on Sunday, the most in a single day.

The surge in new infections has, of course, been led by the United States, which has confirmed more than 3.3 million cases overall. And that number expected to keep rising, with states continuing to see new highs every day.

Florida counted more than 15,000 infections on its own, on Sunday. A new one-day record for any state in the country since the pandemic began. Officials say that the number of hospitalizations is also up, and it is pushing doctors and nurses to their limits.

It's not just Florida. At least 33 states have seen a significant rise in new infections, since the Fourth of July weekend. In Michigan, several people who attended a holiday during the holiday break have tested positive. Officials now urging everyone who was there to get tested.

Now, as the outbreak continues to grow, the White House has been trying to undermine its own top infectious disease expert. With more on that push to discredit Dr. Anthony Fauci, let's go to CNN correspondent Kristen Holmes in Washington, D.C.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it would be extraordinary to see this sort of broadsiding of one of the top health officials by the White House in any situation, but it's particularly striking, given that it's happening during a pandemic.

We have seen this tension between Dr. Fauci and President Trump really start to boil up in public, kind of lashing out at one another. At one point, Dr. Fauci openly disagreeing with President Trump. He said that the government's response wasn't really that great to coronavirus.

He also talked about how he wasn't sure where President Trump had gotten certain information.

And then you have President Trump saying that Dr. Fauci was a nice man but had made a lot of mistakes.

Now, in an official statement from a White House official, when asked about this relationship between the two, between the White House and this leading health expert. They said -- White House officials saying, "Several White House officials are concerned about the number of times Dr. Fauci has been wrong on things."

And then they presented a list here that looks almost like opposition research that we would get if they were talking about someone like Joe Biden or a political opponent, listing out early comments that Dr. Fauci made when talking about the pandemic that you didn't need to wear a mask, or that the epidemic is not driven by asymptomatic carriers, things that we heard not just from Dr. Fauci, but from many medical experts early on, when we were still figuring out what was going on with the pandemic.

But again, the broader picture here is that during this pandemic, you're seeing a White House that is actively lashing out at one of the nation's top officials. Someone who is, supposedly, an adviser to President Trump. He was a member of the coronavirus task force here.

So it's very striking to see something like this going on at a time when these cases just continue to surge.

Kristen Holmes, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

M. HOLMES: Now Mr. Trump has long refused, of course, to comply with his own top health officials when it comes to wearing a mask. It is undisputed that doing so slows the spread of the coronavirus.

And yet, it was just Saturday, the very first time the president was publicly seen wearing a mask at Walter Reed Hospital. Since the start of the pandemic, he's pushed against the practice. On Sunday, the U.S. surgeon general, again, stressing the importance of mask wearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[00:05:00] DR. JEROME ADAMS, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: The disease course is about two to three weeks. So just as we've seen cases skyrocket, we can turn this thing around in two to three weeks, if we can get a critical mass of people wearing face coverings, practicing at least six feet of social distancing, doing the things that we know are effective.

And it's important for the American people to understand, when we're talking about the fall, we have the ability to turn this around, very quickly, if people will do the right thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. HOLMES: And with me now, to discuss all of this, Dr. Armand Dorian, who is chief medical officer of USC Verdugo Hills Hospital.

Good to see you again, Doctor. I want to start with Dr. Anthony Fauci, because we have to. The president reportedly not even speaking with his top expert. You've got White House staffers sending reporters what's being called opposition research on their own top infectious disease doctor in the middle of a pandemic. What is the result of that sort of situation?

DR. ARMAND DORIAN, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, USC VERDUGO HILLS HOSPITAL: I mean, we really need to raise this to a higher level. This is starting to sound very juvenile and elementary, picking on each other or trying to pick at different facts.

We're in the midst of a pandemic, which means one of the worst crises the human race will ever have, so it's very important that our leaders actually lead.

And in order to lead, you need to all come together, both Dr. Fauci and President Trump. It's time to put things aside.

And even if people were off, or wrong, or incorrect, who cares? We have to talk about today and tomorrow. And what we do know, which is a fact, is that the numbers are rising, and more people are going to die. So we really need to address this now.

M. HOLMES: Yes, yes. A lot of people have been saying there has been no national leadership all along, and that's creating its own problems. You mentioned the numbers. Let's talk about those.

Just look at the state of Florida, more than 15,000 new cases Sunday, the highest of any state at all during the pandemic, bigger than most countries, we should point out, today. What are your biggest concerns when you look at the -- the overall COVID landscape right now?

DORIAN: The big concern is this is a train that's -- once it starts moving, it's not something easy to turn around. It takes weeks, if we all come together, at best to start slowing down.

So when these numbers start getting out of hand, and we're seeing state, after state, after state go in that wrong direction, as a physician, I'm extremely concerned. I'm concerned for human life.

So I really need people to come together, and just like you put shoes on when you leave the House, put that mask on.

M. HOLMES: Yes, and I mean, the problem is, you do have the nation's top health experts in bodies like the CDC saying one thing. Then you've got the president saying, or in some cases, openly contradicting those experts. I mean, you said juvenile earlier. I mean, it just strikes me that this can cost lives, right?

DORIAN: Not can, it will. And it is. So every decision that we make when it comes to a pandemic, the consequence is death and disability. And just because it's not you or someone you know, doesn't mean it's not happening.

And don't wait until it's you or someone you know. This is a human problem. And we all have the ability to make rational, moral decisions.

Again, this is not something that has anything to do with political party, color, or if you like somebody, you don't like somebody. And it doesn't even matter what happened before this date. Honestly, I don't really care, because it's about right now and where we're headed from this point further.

HOLMES: Yes, yes. And as you said, what we do now is going to -- we're going to see the results of in several weeks.

So, you know, you've got the -- speaking of which, you've got the administration pushing pretty hard for schools to reopen, even threatening to withhold federal funding to states that don't do as they're told.

What are your concerns about schools in session, especially in states with states with, you know, really alarming infection rates? Everyone wants kids back to school. But when you look at places like Texas, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, for that matter, are you -- are you worried about that?

DORIAN: I think, first, you said the right thing. Everybody wants their kids to go back to school. That's -- We shouldn't even be discussing this part.

What we should be discussing is how can somebody say, for example, everybody in the United States needs to take an umbrella out today? Well, the true answer to that is, it depends. It depends how the weather is in your area. Same analogy. It depends where the virus is peaking in your area.

Currently, however, we're going in such a bad direction that the entire nation is going in the wrong direction.

Having said that, once we start -- or hopefully, get a handle of this, we will be able to make -- or address this concerns in our local areas, according to where the virus is under control, or not under control, very similar to how, when you watch the weather report that morning, and you decide what you're going to do.

[00:10:05] M. HOLMES: Yes. Yes, not one-size-fits-all.

You know, in the broader picture, I was reading today about South Korea. It's hard not to look back at a country like South Korea, which had its first COVID case the same day as the U.S. Fifty million population versus 330 million, sure, but South Korea's COVID deaths are, like, 290. The U.S., 135,000.

It is still stunning to make that comparison. I mean, I guess the history books will have to write about how that happened.

DORIAN: Yes, and you know what? Let's not be so proud to look overseas, and see how others are handling it. We did that initially. We watched how others, unfortunately, suffered with this virus first and learned some science from that and were able to prepare for that.

But we also have to be humbled and see, if somebody is doing it better, we've got to learn from them and do it the same way. And South Korea seems like they're doing a great job.

M. HOLMES: Yes, they are. Do you want to see more testing?

DORIAN: There's no question. We always want to see more testing. This is going to be a part of our lives until we get that vaccine. So testing, knowledge, is power. So it's very important we get testing. And to say we have enough testing is somebody who is not in the thick of it.

I work every day in a hospital, where I know that testing is still limited. People want to get tested, but those that need to get tested, sometimes can't, because the reagents, the swabs, the kids, there's always some little hiccup right now. We're not a well-oiled machine.

M. HOLMES: Yes, exactly. I think the experts are saying we're at about 40 percent of what we should be in terms of testing to fully mitigate.

Dr. Armand Doria, in Los Angeles, appreciate it. Always good to see you. Appreciate it.

DORIAN: Thanks, Mike.

M. HOLMES: Well, several U.S. Marines on the Japanese island of Okinawa have tested positive for the virus. We're going to go live to Japan to see what officials are doing to contain the outbreak and what the response has been to it.

Also, South Africans calling for action against the country's second pandemic. How women in the country are fighting to end gender-based violence and get justice for the lives taken by it. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:16:04]

M. HOLMES: Dramatic scenes off the coast of San Diego, where 17 sailors and four civilians were injured after an explosion and fire broke out aboard the USS Bonhomme Richard.

The U.S. Navy warship was docked at the time, the fire currently under investigation. The Navy says none of those injuries, fortunately, are life-threatening. More than 150 sailors were on board when the fire broke out.

In Japan, a "large number," quote unquote, of U.S. Marines stationed in Okinawa have tested positive for the coronavirus, according to officials, but the base has not yet released details on the number of Marines infected, citing operational security.

Here to discuss more is journalist Kaori Enjoji from Tokyo. And there was some pretty sharp criticism for the Marines from some in Japan for how the situation was handled, right?

KAORI ENJOJI, JOURNALIST: Right, Michael. I think this highlights the long-simmering intentions between Okinawa and the U.S. military and the nervousness that residents are feeling as the surge in COVID-19 cases among military personnel, among various bases on the island, were reported over the weekend.

Local government officials have told us that 62 cases were reported to them over the weekend over the span of the last week in various camps and bases across Okinawa.

And this is highlighting, of course, the difficulty that the governor there has balancing the need to host these military bases, which is the bedrock of the U.S.-Japan security alliance, and at the same time, to try and protect his own -- his own citizens from COVID-19.

I mean, 62 cases in Okinawa is significant, because Okinawa has seen no new COVID-19 cases for more than two months. There were zero in May, zero in June and until July 8, they had no new cases.

So many of the personnel are on lockdown, a virtual lockdown, unable to leave their military bases. But I did speak to a union representative official, who represents the Japanese workers at these bases, and he said that, because of the restrictions at some of the bases, some U.S. military personnel are moving to quarantine in a local hotel. And that is making residents very, very nervous because of the limited amount of information that they're getting from the U.S. military.

He also told me, and other residents in Okinawa also told me that around this time of year, is the time before the school year begins in September. A lot of U.S. military families start to move and relocate to Okinawa. And residents are concerned that, because of the huge amount of cases in the United States and outside of Japan, he's worried about the spread of -- possible spread of COVID-19 on this island.

So it took many, many hours for the governor to confirm the number of cases. He had to seek permission from U.S. military personnel. And as I say, I think this highlights the very uneasy truce that has always been in place between the U.S. military and the Okinawa government. And it comes with -- M. HOLMES: Yes, thank you -- for many years. Yes, yes. Kaori, thank you. Kaori Enjoji there in Tokyo.

Meanwhile, a team from the World Health Organization has landed in China to investigate the origins of the coronavirus. Let's bring in Kristie Lu Stout from Hong Kong.

A long-awaited trip to China by the WHO. What -- what are they going to be looking for and what assurance they -- that they will get the cooperation they need?

KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, those are the key questions at this moment. And on Friday, we did hear from the World Health Organization. They said that this two-person advance team was en route to China to set up a long-awaited probe into the origins of the coronavirus and the coronavirus pandemic.

It is Monday here in Asia, and this is what we know so far. Of this two-member team, it consists of two experts, one an expert at animal health, the other an epidemiologist, or the study of diseases.

[00:20:00]

And again, this is an advance team. So the team are there in China to be able to determine the agenda and the scope and scale of a greater investigation into the origin of the coronavirus. So it is still very very early on in this process.

According to the World Health Organization, these two individuals will also try to get answers to two very critical questions. No. 1, we know that the virus is found in bats, but is there an intermediate species? Was there another animal host that also helped cook up the virus?

And secondly, how did this virus make that leap from animals to humans? They're going to try to figure that out. Now, this comes at a time of fraught political tension between the U.S. and China, the WHO stuck in between.

We know that the WHO has been under fire for its relationship with China. We know that the United States under U.S. President Donald Trump is withdrawing from the World Health Organization. In fact, it plans to withdraw, effective July of 2021, after arguing that the WHO, according to the United States under President Trump, is too close to China and that the WHO didn't do enough to question China early on in the health crisis as it was percolating in December and January earlier this year.

So there is a lot of scrutiny and a lot of pressure on, again, this two-person advanced WHO team in China, to see whether or not they're going to get access to data, to samples, to files from Chinese authorities and Chinese scientists, as well as, critically, answers. Just to find out what happened and what was the origin of this pandemic that, as of today, has taken the lives of over 560,000 people -- Michael.

M. HOLMES: Yes. Important visit. Kristie Lu Stout in Hong Kong. Thank you.

Well, South Africa is reinstating a daily curfew and banning alcohol sales again, as virus cases continue to rise there. The curfew will be from 9 in the evening till 4 in the morning. The country reporting more than 12,000 infections every day. That's almost 500 cases an hour.

And South African president said that healthcare facilities are already under tremendous strain.

South Africa is actually fighting two pandemics. In addition to the coronavirus, the country is experiencing a rise -- a worrying rise -- in violence against women.

CNN's David McKenzie has the story of one family torn apart by gender- based violence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To get his place, behind the haystack, in the back.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In this corner, between the corrugated iron and concrete, neighbors found her granddaughter's body, when the smell became stronger than the stench of the garbage.

MAVIS GABADA, VICTIM'S GRANDMOTHER: When the people -- what's going on there? No, it's garbage. I'm going to throw it away.

It's a kind of person who is an animal.

Why did they didn't find this?

MCKENZIE: He, the suspected killer, was her granddaughter's boyfriend.

M. GABADA: This is her I.D.

MCKENZIE: and weeks ago, when the police came to this shack, his shack, they didn't find her purse inside, just feet away from where she was stumped.

(on camera): What does this tell you?

M. GABADA: This tells us that they're not doing their job.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): The police didn't respond to requests for comment. And the prosecuting authority dropped the case against Sibongiseni Gabada's suspected killer, for lack of evidence, only taking it up again, the lead prosecutor told us, because of the public outcry.

He is now in custody, formally charged with murder and awaiting trial. He's yet to plea.

BRENDA GABADA, VICTIM'S SISTER: And the police must make their job very carefully this time, because we are tired. We must walk (ph). We are scared everywhere we go, because we don't know when we're going to meet with someone and it will be dangerous. We don't know. So we are not safe. Justice must be served. We need that to be punished, that guy.

CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT: The coronavirus pandemic --

MCKENZIE: In June, South Africa's president said the country is battling what he calls two pandemics.

RAMPHOSA: Violence is being unleashed on the women and children of our country with a brutality that defines any form of comprehension.

MCKENZIE: On an incomprehensible scale. There were nearly 180,000 violent crimes against women just last year. Nearly 3,000 murders, according to official police statistics.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This community calls for more much-needed radical change with the urgency it deserves.

MCKENZIE: But after decades of protests, and promises of action, change hasn't come. Daughters, mothers and sisters are still lost. And far too often, say gender rights activists, justice is delayed if it comes at all.

[00:25:07]

(on camera): Is the state doing enough?

MANDISA MONAKALI, ACTIVIST, LLITHA LABANTHU: Not at all. I don't think they're serious about it. If they could deal with GBV, with gender- based violence exactly as the way that they're dealing with COVID-19, we would be fine.

MCKENZIE: Her organization took on more than a dozen cases of gender- based violence in just the last week. They've supported victims from age 2 to well into their seventies.

(on camera): And it seems like there is almost a war on women in South Africa.

B. GABADA: You can say that again. You can say that again.

Yes, because we are not safe. We go outside with fear. Maybe it might happen to me. Who is now my sister who looks at me, over my shoulder.

MCKENZIE: I know that this is the still so raw for you.

(voice-over): Still difficult for her to find the words.

M. GABADA: I don't know what to say. I don't even know what to say.

MCKENZIE: But she says it's important to try, so Sibongiseni's killing won't be ignored.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The same way, my daughter was killed like a dog.

MCKENZIE: David McKenzie, CNN, Cape Town.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

M. HOLMES: We can take a quick break. When we come back, President Trump pushing a hardline agenda to reopen schools, but is it safe? We'll look at what other countries can teach the U.S. about getting students back to class safely.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:30:03]

M. HOLMES: And welcome back to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. I'm Michael Holmes. You're watching CNN NEWSROOM.

The U.S. is bracing for another bruising week in the battle against the coronavirus. On Sunday, there were more than 60,000 new cases nationwide, many of them in Florida, which shattered the daily record with more than 15,000 infections reported by local officials.

And new cell phone data shows that, despite all the warnings, an alarming number of people hit the road over July Fourth weekend. Well, it could be weeks before the effects of those getaways even emerge.

The latest figures show disturbing increases in all of the states there in orange and dark red, the majority of the country.

Meanwhile, the United -- the White House is taking swipes at the country's top infectious diseases expert. Dr. Anthony Fauci has dared to publicly disagree with President Trump and say that the U.S. is not doing great with its pandemic response.

Officials released a statement citing the number of times Dr. Fauci has been wrong.

Well, despite cases surging across the U.S., the White House is pushing -- pushing an aggressive agenda to fully open schools in the coming weeks, but there is a fierce debate over how and when to resume classes and if it can be done safely for students and educators.

On Sunday, U.S. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos and Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi both appeared on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION," DeVos pushing the White House line on reopening and Pelosi responding with sharp rebuke.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETSY DEVOS, U.S. EDUCATION SECRETARY: There is nothing in the data that would suggest that kids being back in school is -- is dangerous to them ,and in fact, it's -- it's more a matter of their health and well-being that they be back in school.

The reality is that there are ways for those teachers to be able to continue to do what they do. And every district, every state, has the real opportunity to work with and figure out the best scenario for those teachers. Maybe --

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT/ANCHOR: Should younger teachers who are in the classroom --

DEVOS: -- younger are in the classroom, and older teacher -- That's something for them to work out with their local district. But it -- again, that's the exception, not the rule. The rule needs to be schools need to get open. Kids need to go back to school. They need to be learning. Teachers want to be there.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Well, I think what we heard from the secretary was malfeasance and a dereliction of duty. This is appalling. They're missing -- they're messing -- the president and his administration are messing with the health of our children. It is -- we all want our children to go back to school. Teachers do, parents do and children do. But they must go back safely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. HOLMES: Well, as the U.S. debates the safety of returning students to class, some countries have already reopened their school successfully. Others, maybe not so much.

For more on this, I'm joined now by our Will Ripley in Hong Kong. A huge issue globally. You've been looking into it. What did you find?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN ANCHOR: This is actually one of the most challenging aspects of this pandemic, Michael, is figuring out when to reopen schools. And we know that students need to get back to school for a whole list of reasons.

But to do it safely, every country except for the United States has insisted that the virus be contained at the community level. That's why here in Hong Kong today, for example, after dozens of daily cases of community spread have been reported in recent days, schools are canceled for the rest of the school year.

And this is a place that thought it had everything under control. It just goes to show, even with social distancing measures, it's not foolproof.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY (voice-over): Students gather for assembly in Thailand, their first day back to school since mid-March.

There are new rules to go along with the new normal. Educating in the time of coronavirus.

First, the lineup. A pump of hand sanitizer, a full-face visor, a temperature check, and class is back in session.

One of this group's first lessons: how to keep their distance. Makeshift cubicles made out of old ballot boxes help to keep students separated.

One girl says, she feels good studying behind the box. It makes her feel safer returning to school.

Before it's reopening, Thailand effectively contained the virus. Its infection rate remains low: just over 3,200 confirmed cases, even though it was the first country outside of China to detect a case of COVID-19.

Around the world, other starts and stops. Hong Kong schools are closing again. It, too, restarted classes a month and a half ago. Because of a new spike in cases, officials decided to start summer break early.

[00:35:10]

One student says he just finished his exams and there was just one more week of classes to go, so not too much of a difference.

There have been similar rollbacks in Beijing and parts of Australia, where officials opened up schools after a seemingly successful lockdown, only to shut them again after a flare-up of coronavirus.

In global hotspots like South America, thousands of new cases every day. Schools are closed, with a few exceptions. Most of Uruguay's students have returned to class. It closed its borders early, and it has about 1,000 total cases. Unlike its much larger and denser neighbor, Brazil, which is topping 1.8 million.

The remoteness of Chile's Easter Island may have spared it the fate of the mainland. School recently resumed there.

One student says it's an opportunity that's been given to them because on the continent, it's not been possible to return to class because of the pandemic.

An opportunity countries around the world are struggling to manage, as schools learn, even after reopening, there are no guarantees the virus won't return.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY: Even countries that have reopened since last month, but some of them closed, depending on the number of cases in their particular districts. So they kind of go back and forth, in and out of the classroom, depending on the virus situation.

Other things that have been successful in countries, you saw in the video there, social distancing. Hygiene, hygiene, hygiene. It's a little weird to see students, Michael, at their desks, you know, with those kind of ballot boxes surrounding them, but that is the new reality if they're going to be in class and it's going to be safe, at least until there's some sort of a more effective treatment or vaccine for COVID-19.

M. HOLMES: Yes. That was a striking image. It really was. Great report, Will. Thanks so much. Will Ripley there in Hong Kong.

All right. So what is the key to getting students back in class, doing it safely? A recent article in "Science" magazine looked at some of the strategies that other countries are using effectively.

Well, joining me now is one of the authors of that article, Gretchen Vogel.

Great to see you, Gretchen. It's a fascinating article on what can be achieved if done right. As you point out, 1.5 billion young people were staying at home at one point around the world because of the shutdowns. When you see that number, it really hits you.

What stood out to you on what worked when it came to reopening schools?

GRETCHEN VOGEL, CONTRIBUTING CORRESPONDENT, "SCIENCE" MAGAZINE: As you just heard, one of the key, key things is that the background rate of the virus, the background level of the virus is under control in the community.

And what schools that reopen learned is that outbreaks can happen. You're going to have kids and -- and teachers who do get infected, and one of the things that did seem to really help was keeping groups small, so that if you -- a lot of schools across northern Europe broke classes into half or one-third of their normal size, and then met only part of the time. Part days or a few days a week, or in other patterns. You go for one week, and then stay home for two weeks.

That lowers the risk. It lowers the number of contacts that a potentially infected person then has, and that lowers the number of people that then need to go into quarantine if someone turns up infected.

M. HOLMES: And it's interesting you say that, because, you know, some schools particularly in the U.S., as you know well, have literally thousands of students. I mean, I saw one school chief today on CNN who said normal spacing between students is 18 inches. How do you distance and still cater for school populations on that scale?

VOGEL: Those are really hard questions. There were some creative solutions in Europe in the summertime, or in late spring. Classes were held outside. They held some classes in churches. There was one class, I think even a colleague on CNN reported about a class, a math class being held in a graveyard. And they were doing some statistics with the gravestones.

And so there were efforts to keep kids outside as much as possible, keep windows open as much as possible. Of course, that's dependent on whether. It doesn't work so well in January in the northern hemisphere.

M. HOLMES: Yes, that's true. I mean, when it comes to the health aspect, I mean, kids, it would appear, are less likely to be infected or have bad outcomes, although they are tested less, of course. And there are reports that they can be carriers to older folks. They have the same viral load as adults, a recent study's shown.

[00:40:06]

What did other countries find in terms of virus spread via school kids. Not just among the school kids but taking it home?

VOGEL: Taking it home and also spreading it to their teachers, right?

M. HOLMES: Teachers, yes.

VOGEL: There's a big worry among teachers, for good reason. What -- the data are sparse, and it's really frustrating, because we would love to have better data and better information about how safe it really is.

The data that we've seen so far seems to indicate that smaller, younger children do spread it less. They're not only infected less often, but they spread it less effectively.

There was an interesting comparison of schools in a town in France where this virus was spreading before anybody knew what it was. It was early February. No one even knew that it was there. In the high school, there were a couple of teachers that they found who had been infected, and then when they did antibody tests later, they found around, I think, 35 percent of the students, 40-some percent of the teachers, and 60-some percent of the staff had been infected.

When they looked, then, at elementary schools, however, they found a couple of students that were likely infected and were attending school at the same time, and they found almost none of their contacts had been infected. The teachers, the classmates. Only family members tended to be infected. And they thought that perhaps the children had caught it from the family members, rather than passed it to the family members.

M. HOLMES: Wow. Yes.

VOGEL: This is all very preliminary, but it may be a hopeful sign.

M. HOLMES: Well, yes, I hope -- I hope you're right. I mean, we spoke on the program last night. There were a couple of teachers who caught coronavirus. One of their colleagues had died from it. And the point you make is valid about the teachers. I think there's one and a half million teachers in the U.S. alone who are considered vulnerable.

Just -- just quickly, I mean, what other countries have done well is one thing, but the sad fact, I think, is it's probably true that no country has tried to do it with the virus levels raging as they are in the U.S. -- in the U.S. What have been the general benchmarker of when you do it?

VOGEL: That's -- yes, the numbers are also hard to summarize, but essentially, I think most of the countries that opened were able -- they felt confident they were able to identify infected people, identify their contacts, and keep those people, then, at home and prevent outbreaks from growing larger.

There were no hard and fast rules, but there were testing and contact tracing procedures in place, so that if somebody turned up infected, there were -- there were methods to figure out who they'd been in contact with and contact those people and tell them to please stay home for two weeks and make sure that they had not been infected. And if they were -- if they started to show symptoms, get tested.

That's just not -- yes, if that's not in place, then it's really hard, I think, to open schools.

M. HOLMES: Yes, yes. Absolutely. A fascinating article in "Science" magazine. Gretchen Vogel, appreciate you there in Berlin. Thanks so much.

VOGEL: Thank you.

M. HOLMES: An English Premier League star speaks out about racism in football. Why he says the online variety is actually worse than what he hears during matches. We'll have that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:46:38]

M. HOLMES: Welcome back.

Police in England have arrested a 12-year-old boy in connection with racist messages sent to Premier League football star Wilfred Zaha. The Ivory Coast national, who plays for Crystal Palace, shared several screen shots of racist abuse he said he received overnight on social media, ahead of his team's fixture on Sunday against Aston Villa.

Now this comes as players in the top-flight English league have been showing their support for the Black Lives Matter movement by kneeling before matches.

The abuse was strongly condemned, as you might imagine, by both clubs, while the Premier League called the behavior "completely unacceptable," adding that it stands alongside Zaha "in opposing this and discrimination in any form."

Now, another Premier League star says he finds online racism worse than racist incidents inside the stadiums. Watford defender Christian Kabasele says, while all forms are reprehensible, sending monkey and banana emojis to players on social media means that somebody has taken the time to think about their message before sending it.

Kabasele spoke to WORLD SPORT contributor Darren Lewis back in March about the racism that he has experienced and why he says social media platforms have failed to deal with the incidents he's reported in the past.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIAN KABASELE, WATFORD DEFENDER: When you are in stadium, sometimes you are -- the fact that you are sued (ph) under from another person, we just disconnect your brain and you do something stupid.

But when you -- when you write -- when you write something on Instagram, on Twitter, you have time to think about what you are doing, and it's worse than something up in the stadium. DARREN LEWIS, CNN SPORT: Now, I know that you reported, when you

received the abuse, and you were quite shocked by the response. Just talk us through that.

KABASELE: Yes. So I was abused in -- in Belgium during a game. And after I went to my Instagram and I took a monkey picture, and I put it next to -- next to that picture, a picture of myself. And I was asking, am I looking as the same as -- as the monkey?

And the day after, Instagram deleted my post and just said that I break the rules of Instagram, that I was violent, and I was spreading -- how do they say this? -- yes, spreading violence and -- and bad messages on my Instagram, so I should stop it.

And it was quite -- quite unbelievable, because when I was abused again on Instagram, I reported the message I received, and after they have -- investigation, they find out that there was no violence message towards me, and the account didn't break the rules.

So it's -- it's quite amazing how you can have two -- two kinds of reactions about -- about this. It's unbelievable.

[00:50:10]

Yes, it's difficult to understand and to believe. But it's true. It didn't happen only once. Several times. Because that day I received a lot of messages. And yes, I reported maybe 10, 15 messages, and for three, four of them, they said that there were no violence in the -- in the account that you reported.

LEWIS: Where do we go? What do we do with this? Because I can't see a situation where this is going to stop. People are allowed to do all sorts of things on social media.

KABASELE: Yes, but I think the first step maybe, it's to -- to obligate every person who is subscribing in Instagram, Twitter and all these kinds of things, to use their I.D. It's a simple as that. You put all the details of your I.D. on Instagram like this if you do something bad. We know who is behind this -- this kind of thing. And maybe it will -- it will -- it will make people think twice before making things like this. Maybe that's the -- that's the first step. I don't know.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

M. HOLMES: Now when CNN contacted Instagram for comment, their media team responded, saying that, quote, "Racism is not tolerated on Instagram. When we find content that breaks our guidelines, we will remove it, and we will ban those who repeatedly break the rules," unquote.

Instagram adding that they have new technology that, quote, "allows public figures to prevent unwanted contact and control who messages them on Instagram."

We've also contacted Twitter, and the social media platform has not yet responded to our request for comment.

Quick break now. When we come back, friends and fans praying for a speedy recovery as the coronavirus infects three Bollywood icons in the same family. That story when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:56:07]

M. HOLMES: Bollywood fans spent Sunday in prayers for one of the industry's most famous families. Legendary actor Amitabh Bachchan, is in stable condition with mild symptoms, fortunately, after testing positive for the coronavirus. He's being isolated in hospital as he recovers.

Bachchan was admitted on Saturday night along with his son Abhishek, also reportedly in stable condition with the virus. And Abhishek's wife, the actress Aishwarya Rai Bachchan. I said the -- and the couple's daughter. They've all tested positive, as well, and are self- quarantining at home. We wish them well.

Thanks for spending part of your day with me watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Michael Holmes. I'll be back with more news in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END