Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Dozens Dead, Thousands Wounded in Beirut Explosion; U.S. Death Toll Nears 157,000 with 4.7 Million+ Cases; U.N. Chief: "Generational Catastrophe" Over Education; Schools Wrestle with How and When to Reopen; Australia Deploys Military Personnel to Enforce Stay-at-Homme Orders in State of Victoria; At least 78 Killed in Massive Explosion in Beirut; Trump Insists Pandemic is Under Control in U.S.; Some Americans Ignore Guidance to Avoid Large Gatherings; Beirut Marks Day of Mourning after Tuesday's Deadly Blast. Aired 1-2a ET
Aired August 05, 2020 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[01:00:00]
ROBYN CURNOW, CNN ANCHOR: Well, thanks so much for joining us. You are watching CNN. I'm Robyn Curnow, live from here CNN's World News headquarters in Atlanta.
And, of course, Beirut was once known as the Paris of the Middle East. Today the city's governor says it reminds him more of Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
This huge explosion ripped through the port in Lebanon's capital killing at least 78 people, wounding 4,000 others. But, with many, many still people -- many, many people still missing and hospitals overwhelmed. Those numbers are certain to rise.
Now, the prime minister is pointing to a warehouse full of ammonium nitrate as the likely cause of the blast. He's also declared it a national day of mourning and is promising a thorough investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HASSAN DIAB, LEBANESE PRIME MINISTER (through translator): What happened today will not pass without accountability. Those responsible will pay the price for this catastrophe.
Facts will be announced about this dangerous warehouse, which has been present since 2014 for six years. I will not preempt the investigations. The time now is for dealing with this catastrophe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CURNOW: So, CNN's Ben Wedeman was in CNN's Beirut Bureau on Tuesday evening when this explosion happened. Ben?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It felt like an earthquake and it looked like a mushroom cloud. The explosion in Beirut Tuesday so massive it shook the ground all the way to Cypress, 150 miles away. The level of devastation is still being accessed, with widespread
destruction stretching for miles from the epicenter near Beirut's port.
Firefighters and emergency workers rushed to the scene, one that the city's governor, Marwan Abboud described as resembling Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Local hospitals were immediately inundated with hundreds of victims and the Lebanese Red Cross put out an urgent call for blood donations.
The casualty count staggering. Thousands injured and dozens dead, with the number of dead surely to rise in the hours to come.
Initially the state news agency attributed the cause of the blast to a fire at a fireworks warehouse, but shortly afterwards the head of Lebanese security said the explosion happened at the site of confiscated high explosive materials.
Lebanon's Prime Minister Hassan Diab later said it is unacceptable that a shipment of an estimated 2,750 tons of ammonium nitrate was stored in a warehouse near the port for six years, that as the country launched an investigation into the cause, expecting an initial report in the coming days.
The Lebanese president has ordered military patrols in the wake of the incident, in a country already on its knees due to a failing economy and the spread of COVID-19. The Lebanese Prime Minister has announced that Wednesday will be a day of mourning.
Ben Wedeman, CNN, Beirut.
CURNOW: Well, Tuesday's blast was so, so powerful it actually registered as a 3.3 magnitude earthquake and the damage could to the port could mean food shortages also for the entire nation.
Seventy percent of Lebanon's food is imported through that harbor. And a silo that holds the countries largest wheat stockpile has been destroyed as well.
Witnesses describing what they saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILIPE ARACTINGI, FILM DIRECTOR: I've seen war, I've filmed war. I went to (inaudible) in 2006, I went to the South Lebanon to see this. It took 30 days to do the same destruction, we had it in one explosion. It is a catastrophe. I've never seen something like that.
KARL DAGHER, WITNESS AND PROCUREMENT ENGINEER: Honestly, we were just sifting through the rumors, hearing all the rumors and trying to understand what happened, because there was lots of confusion and lots of rage that this could happen, with everything that's happening in the country, they're not -- the cherry on top, there comes massive negligence or we don't what is -- or an actor of terror, we really don't understand. But, it's just -- and on top of all that you have to worry about
wearing your face mask because you don't want to get coronavirus in the hospital for treating a small wound. So, I think outrage would be the correct word to express what I'm feeling right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CURNOW: Jomana Karadsheh is following these developments from Istanbul, Turkey. He speaks of outrage, but also people devastated. It's morning there and we're getting a better sense of the blast radius and it's -- it's inconceivable isn't it?
JOMANA KARDSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's just unfathomable, Robyn. The -- the scale of the destruction that we are seeing following this incident, you know.
[01:05:00]
It stretches miles and miles across Beirut, you know, almost everyone you talk to, pretty much everyone has been impacted by this blast. You're talking about buildings destroyed, entire streets wiped and we still don't really know the true human toll of this incident.
You know, the government's talking about more than 70 people who have been confirmed killed, more than 4,000 people who have been injured, but there are so many people who are still unaccounted for. It is a very truly heartbreaking situation.
When you see people searching for their loved ones, frantically searching at hospitals that have been overwhelmed, you know, but this situation. Also, taking to social media, posting photo, phone numbers, searching for their loved ones. The charity Save the Children, saying that there are children unaccounted for.
So, you know, when people wake up this morning, this is a city that is still dealing with the trauma of an event like this, Beirut has seen so much over the years. It has seen everything, but it has seen nothing like this, Robyn.
By all accounts, people who lived through the Civil War, they have lived through various wars, terror attacks, assassinations and bombings in Beirut, they have seen nothing like this.
CURNOW: Jomana, thanks so much. Jomana Karadsheh in Istanbul with that report.
So, U.S. Defense officials are contradicting and assertion (ph) by the President Donald Trump that the Beirut explosion was actually a bombing. And unnamed sources says there's no indication of that, but here's what the president said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You called this an attack. Are you confident that this was an attack and not an accident? DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, it would seem like it based on the explosion. I've met with some of our great generals and they just seem to feel that it was.
This was not a -- some kind of a manufacturing explosion type of an event. This was a -- seems to be, according to them, they would know better than I would, but they seem to think it was a attack, it was a bomb of some kind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CURNOW: Well, Lebanese officials have not called the explosion an attack. President Trump did offer U.S. assistance and his deepest sympathies to the Lebanese people.
Well let's go now to Jad Chaaban, he's in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley. He's an Associate Professor of Economics at the American University of Beirut. How are you doing, sir? I understand that many people actually heard this blast where you are. Did you hear it?
JAD CHAABAN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT AMERICAN UNIVERSITY OF BEIRUT: Good morning.
CURNOW: Hi.
CHAABAN: Yes, I was in Beirut and my family in the mountains here in the Bekaa. I heard it very loud, it was like an earthquake in Beirut where I live and I'm like 10 kilometers from the port. And in the Bekaa Valley where my family is, they also heard it, which is 60 kilometers away from Beirut.
And the people as far as Cypress also heard it. You know, Cypress is 130 kilometers also from the port.
CURNOW: We heard there -- one -- a Lebanese gentleman saying that he's outraged and Jomana Karadsheh, our correspondent outlying Lebanon's pretty tumultuous history. But this just seems to defy any explanation. What is the mood of the country right now?
CHAABAN: You know, this is beyond a national disaster, Beirut city is completely destroyed and shattered. There are more than 80 people killed, 4,000 wounded and hundreds who are still missing. For me as a Lebanese citizen this is a criminal attack by this ruling state, but these ruling parties and all their friends in power against us.
They have committed a crime by storing these nitrates for more than a decade there with no accountability. People for lesser crimes, they just leave their posts and people now are angry, we are very, very angry against this political class and -- and they all should leave.
CURNOW: Do you think there will be a political explosion to follow this one?
CHAABAN: I am sure about that. I'm -- I'm -- you know, when October 17 demonstrations and the revolution started, it was on the backdrop of forest fires and corruption and the kind of mini scandals (ph) compared to what happened yesterday. What happened yesterday is a -- is a national disaster and murder from this political class, because they knew what they were storing there.
[01:10:00]
There were reports that everyone on -- to the top of the echelon, they knew that the nitrates and these explosive, 2,700 tons of explosive. The Oklahoma bombing in 1995 was only four tons, we had 2,700 tons stored there, zero accountability. Everyone knew what was there and nobody budged to do anything about it. And people are saying already, all over social media, on the streets, everywhere, they want revenge.
CURNOW: How -- how can that be followed through, because it has been such a tumultuous time? People are, in many ways, struggling with daily life, with COVID, with the economy. You know, is there just an exhaustion here or do you think this has lit some sort of fire that can defy all of that?
CHAABAN: You know, people now woke up to their destroyed homes, to shattered glass, destroyed trucks and cars. They have no dollars because the banks have blocked their dollar accounts to pay for any imports. Prices have more than quadrupled in the past few months, so nobody can afford really to build anything.
There is exacerbation on the street and there is a lot of anger. And I'm sure this anger will materialize into at least a toppling of this, you know, ruling heads from the president to the prime minister, to the head of parliament, there should be an emergency government to take over a transitional period and all of this political class should just leave.
They committed slow crimes by cutting our electricity, by corruption, by destroying our economy and engaging into futile wars all over the region and even in Lebanon. This is like, you know, the cherry on top. That's it. This is too much to bear. Beirut will not come back, with this many years to be -- be reconstructed.
You've seen pictures of the port where we important through that port 80 percent of all our local consumption. This is a national disaster of -- of scale that -- you know -- I've -- I'm 42-years-old, I've lived through wars in Lebanon, through the July War, through the Hariri assassination. I have never seen anything like that.
CURNOW: No, it is unfathomable and it's difficult to -- to explain it, even from the video that we're seeing early this morning. One of our experts described it as the equivalent of a kiloton nuclear bomb going off. That it wasn't a nuclear bomb, but it's the equivalent in terms of the blast. And these are the images we've been seeing this morning.
So, no windows, no electricity, a city almost broken and devastated. Is anyone coming to help? Are -- you know -- do -- does Lebanon feel like the international communities also perhaps abandoning them, because has there been enough offers of support?
CHAABAN: You know, I've -- we've read offers of support from European countries, from the U.S., from Gulf countries, from several countries --
CURNOW: What do you need? What do you want?
CHAABAN: I mean, (inaudible) support, definitely field hospitals, medical supplies, but you know what we really need is -- is access to soft loans and grants, specifically in dollars for people and companies to rebuild.
Now remember, I mean, this blast comes on top of an economic crisis, where we don't have access to any currency to buy our imports before. So, imagine right now the truck owners that had their trucks stored in the port, hundreds of trucks destroyed. How can they buy new trucks? They don't have money for that.
They need soft loans, microcredits, provided immediately for them to -- and grants to -- to buy their equipment again, to restart the economy. We need SMEs loans and support for the small enterprises, you know, the vibrant scene that was still trying to survive around the port area, where you had a very nice neighborhood, all of them destroyed, historical neighborhoods with restaurants and shops.
All of these need rebuilding. We didn't have money in the first place, because the money was stolen by these -- (inaudible) in power. And now we actually need immediate humanitarian, but also economic and financial support.
Regardless of what people think about this government, its political allegiance is, don't through this government, go through the U.N. system and -- and -- and help the Lebanese people. We -- we need help immediately to survive and to, you know, think about our children, about their future.
CURNOW: A call for help, Jad Chaaban, I appreciate you speaking to us. Good luck. A devastating morning to wake up to. But, thank you for speaking to us here CNN.
CHAABAN: Thank you. Of course.
CURNOW: We have much more ahead on this explosion. We'll hear from someone who lives near the port and describes what it was like when that blast happened.
Also, schools across Bolivia will remain empty for the rest of the year as the government there takes drastic action to contain the coronavirus.
[01:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[01:17:05]
CURNOW: Well, as the world grapples with some 18 million confirmed coronavirus cases, a serious warning is coming from the U.N. The Secretary General says we're facing a, quote, generational catastrophe because of school closures and that the pandemic has lead to the largest disruption of education ever, with more than a billion students affected.
This comes amid growing worries of a second wave as well, Germany already in the midst of one, according to the German Doctors Association. And top French scientists warn of a virus surge come autumn.
Meanwhile, here in the U.S. the death toll is now up to 157,000, which far outpaces that of any other country. But, you wouldn't know that by listening to the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well I think, actually, the numbers are lower than others, I'll get back to you on that. But, we proportionately are lower than almost all countries, we're at the bottom of the list and we're relative to cases also.
We're at the bottom of the list, which is a good thing, being at the bottom of the list. But, I can get back to you. We have about four or five different lists on that and we're generally speaking at the very bottom of the list.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CURNOW: He's also insisting the virus is under control as much as you can control it. But, as Sara Sidner now shows us, that is clearly not the case.
SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The coronavirus is still spreading out of control in parts of the United States, despite the president's assertion otherwise.
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: I would just categorically reject we can't do something about it or that the status quo is acceptable.
SIDNER: With more than 4.7 million diagnosed cases and more than 156,000 deaths.
DR. JAY VARKEY, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE EMORY UNIVERSITY: The U.S. is the fourth worse performing country in the world. We have four percent of the world's population, yet we account for 25 percent of the world's deaths. That is unacceptable.
SIDNER: New case rates are steady or down in 42 states, but often the numbers are steady at a very high level, with Florida about to be come the second state to total a half million cases during the pandemic.
GOV. RON DESANTIS (R), FLORIDA: I think by the time we get, you know, a couple weeks into the future I think we're going to continue to see the prevalence decline. And that will be a very, very good thing.
SIDNER: In Mississippi the positivity rate is now higher than any other state, prompting the governor to announce a state mask mandate in public spaces and for teachers and students in schools located in hot spots. GOV. TATE REEVES (R), MISSISSIPPI: We must pump the brakes in hardest
hit areas.
SIDNER: In neighboring Louisiana the governor just extended several restrictions there, including a state mask mandate for another three weeks.
And while cases may be declining in many places, daily death tolls across the country continue to climb.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR OF NIH: This is a very serious situation that our country is facing. I don't -- you know -- you don't need anybody to tell you that. You just need to look at the numbers.
SIDNER: Despite the worrying data for the U.S. as a whole, some citizens are still throwing caution to the wind, another massive house party, this time at a mansion in Los Angeles, a potential coronavirus Petri dish that ended in gun fire. One person killed, three shot.
[01:20:00]
CHRIS RAMIREZ, LIEUTENANT LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT: We as a public have to be conscious of everybody else, everybody's public safety, our own safety.
SIDNER: Schools continue to be the great unknown. Some communities eager to start up, others more concerned with the risks of sending kids and teachers back into classrooms.
DR. DEBBI BURDICK, SUPERINTENDENT CAVE CREEK UNITED SCHOOL DISTRICT: We can make great academic decisions, but I don't think talking about somebody's health, not knowing all their underlying conditions are the types of things that we should be deciding.
SIDNER: The worries about school really are universal among teachers and students and families. People extremely worried that either people are going to bring it in, for example, the students bring it in to a classroom that could cause a super spreader event, or that employees, teachers, staff members are going to bring it in and get the children sick, who then take it home to their families.
We've already heard that in the state of Georgia in the United States there were 260 or so employees of school district who either tested positive for the coronavirus or were around someone who did test positive and that meant they had to stay home. So, there is a great concern at this point about opening schools back up, and in some cases, opening states back up.
Sara Sidner, CNN, Los Angeles.
CURNOW: Sanjaya Senanayake is an Infectious Diseases Specialist and an Associate Professor at the Australia National Universities medical school. Doctor, hi. You're joining us from Canberra. I just want you to give us a sense of what your reaction is to this U.N. warning, that we're facing a generational catastrophe in education. You know, as an infectious disease doctor how can you balance the need
for over a billion kids to get back to school, but safely.
SANJAYA SENANAYAKE, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST: Yes Robyn, it's very tricky. The only good thing about this whole situation is that children, particularly younger children, don't seem to effectively transmit this infection compared to a whole lot of other respiratory infections.
And children overall don't seem to get very sick with this. But yes, that -- that is an issue. The longer that children aren't at school, it will have psychological, educational and social impacts on them. School is so important.
And, of course, trying to return to school in areas which have achieved elimination of COVID-10, there are some parts of Australia where that has been achieved, is much, much easier than doing it in an environment where there's lots of community transmission.
CURNOW: Yes, like in a place like Atlanta, where we are right now. You know, what -- do you feel that teachers and school districts and even parents are perhaps being too conservative. Do the -- do you feel they need to take a risk here and send their kids to school, if school head (ph) mandates masks, for example, and that sort of thing?
SENANAYAKE: Yes, look, that -- that is a very hard question to answer. On the one hand, if you reinstitute schools, the problem in a big city like Atlanta is that means that there's an enormous amount of movement twice a day, going to school, coming back from school, tens of thousands of people traveling across the city and potentially spreading infection.
Now, within the classroom you can mitigate that risk, particularly if you have the older kids wearing masks, desks at least 1.5 meters apart and good ventilation, so all those things can be achieved, but there -- there is a risk in terms of spreading the infection by doing this, and it may involve people becoming positive or students becoming positive, or teachers becoming positive in a school, having that schools shut down immediately.
CURNOW: Yes, certainly huge, huge worries for parents and kids around the world. I just also want to -- within the midst of all of this, you're there in Australia, Australia has dealt with this in different ways as well.
What is -- what is your reaction to the military being called in, in Victoria? Do you believe that this needs to be dealt with in a heavy- handed way in -- in countries around the world? Is that the only solution on -- on -- you know -- for a final kind of definitive end to this?
SENANAYAKE: Well, I think that you need all the assistance that you need and the military being asked to help in Victoria, I think, has been a positive. And just because they're military, of course, doesn't mean it's necessarily a heavy-handed approach, particularly in fairly liberal democracies like ours. So, I think if the Victorian government feels they need that assistance to assist with isolating cases and with contact tracing and various other resources and processes, then I think it's a very reasonable thing to do.
CURNOW: Thanks so much there to Sanjaya Senanayake in Canberra for that.
So, we know at least 5 million cases are now being conformed across Latin America and the Caribbean. More than 83,000 have come from Bolivia.
[01:25:00]
Now, with the outbreak steadily rising officials in that country have decided to keep schools closed for the rest of the year. Patrick Oppmann reports on that. Patrick?
PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Riding from town to town in rural Bolivia, one teacher tried to keep his students from falling behind.
(FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
OPPMANN: His students were at a rare advantage, as most in rural areas were unable to continue classes once schools closed during the pandemic. Now the gap in access will affect students across the country as education ends for the rest of the year.
YERKO NUNEZ, BOLIVIAN MINISTER OF THE PRESIDENCY (through translator): The school year is canceled because the vast majority of rural areas do not have internet, the children do not have internet. The fiber optic system, unfortunately, only reaches the city.
OPPMANN: Usually in school from February to November, some 2 million students in Bolivia now can't attend class in person or online. Officials say they were left with no other choice, reopening schools presented a health risk. As Bolivia's new coronavirus cases continues to climb. But virtual learning would leave tens of thousands behind.
VICTOR HUGO CARDENAS, BOLIVIAN EDUCATION MINISTER (through translator): It's not a good outlook, but we understand that and we're making changes in the immediate future to leave the next government with a base for education transformation.
OPPMANN: UNICEF reports only 40 percent of Bolivian students are able to take classes online, as the pandemic adds pressure to increase internet and computer access around the highland nation.
But as other countries find creative solutions, some residents feel Bolivia is giving up too easily.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The children haven't learned anything and it's terrible for the teachers to work virtually, but the cancellation is worse, because it's a total loss for the students. I don't think it's right. OPPMANN: As the coronavirus pandemic deepens across Latin America, so
too does its impact on learning, as Bolivia's students face a near future without education.
Patrick Oppmann, CNN.
CURNOW: Stay with us for more on our top story, Tuesday's deadly blast in Beirut. We'll have a report from our Senior International Correspondent on the ground in the city here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[01:29:53]
CURNOW: You're watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Robyn Curnow.
Of course, returning to our top story to this massive explosion in Beirut that has killed at least 78 people. We know thousands injured. The health minister is calling it a catastrophe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a bomb? Oh my God. Oh my God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CURNOW: The damage is spread across Lebanon's capital, shattered glasses everywhere, mixed with debris blown into the streets. People are being warned to stay inside because of reports of toxic gases also coming from the blast.
Ben Wedeman was there in the CNN bureau when this blast took place and he reports now from Beirut, of course.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Just minutes after 6:00 p.m., Beirut time, the city was shaken by a huge explosion in the port.
The national news agency said that it was caused by a fire in a warehouse with fireworks. But the mushroom cloud that came from the port of Beirut would indicate something else. And in fact, the head of Lebanese General Security, General Abbas Ibrahim did say it would be naive to conclude that an explosion of that size was caused by fireworks.
Throughout the capital of Lebanon, there is severe damage. Windows have been shattered. Window frames have been knocked out of the walls. We are being told by eyewitnesses that they saw walking injured in the street. That people were being treated by other citizens who were injured by shattered glass.
The light, the electricity doesn't seem to be working throughout this city very well. One of the main hospitals here, Hotel-Dieu says they have received so far at least 400 injuries. Other hospitals also reporting dozens and dozens of injuries, not quite clear at this point the number of fatalities.
But we hear that the Lebanese Red Cross has called for all ambulances in the entire country to come to Beirut to try to take the injured to hospitals. There is a call out for people to bring as much blood as -- to donate blood to the injured.
The Lebanese government has declared that tomorrow, Wednesday, will be a day of national mourning. But at this point, they are still trying to find out exactly how many people were injured and killed in this massive and mysterious blast.
I'm Ben Wedeman reporting from Beirut.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CURNOW: Well, the focus now is, of course, turning to what caused that blast. Anthony May is a retired explosives investigator for the U.S. government. He joins us now from Phoenix, Arizona.
Hi, sir. I really do want to get your expertise on this. We are hearing from the Lebanese government that this was ammonium nitrate, a fertilizer. What do you see in these videos that we have been seeing and playing out?
ANTHONY MAY, SECURITY AND EXPLOSIVES CONSULTANT: Well, it is quite interesting to view those videos from different angles, because you can kind of pick up different things from it. One of the videos actually shows where you've got this big, dense, white cloud in the lower corner. You can actually see a fire burning.
And then in that video there are also small white flashes that are typical of -- I will just call it a pyrotechnic type of an explosion occurring before the large blast occurs. It's clear -- and I have done a lot of accident investigations with the government, both national and international. And it is clear to me that this was a large amount of explosives or energetic material stored in a building that caught fire and that fire propagated to the explosives, causing the accident.
CURNOW: There was the fire and then this secondary explosion. What do you make of this pink-red smoke that we are seeing, particularly in the secondary explosion? What does that tell you?
MAY: Well, that's interesting. Because when I was in Baghdad, Iraq, of course, ammonium nitrate was one of the items that they were using for improvised explosive devices. However, the telltale sign from that was typically a yellow smoke cloud. This bright or dark reddish colored cloud is not consistent with ammonium nitrate, either burning or exploding.
Now, I'm not saying that ammonium nitrate was not involved in this, it may have been. But it appears that there were some other items in there as well. CURNOW: So if that is your expert opinion, when you look at that cloud
and particularly the color of it, what do you think it could be, if it's not ammonium nitrate?
[01:34:59]
MAY: Well, I'm not saying it's not ammonium nitrate. Ammonium nitrate may have been --
CURNOW: Well, what would color it?
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Well, ammonium nitrate would have been a yellow cloud. What I'm suggesting is that there were multiple energetic materials in that warehouse. That is evident by the fact that when you look at the flames from the videos, they are very intense flames. Explosives unconfined will burn like that. It is when they become confined during a fire that you will propagate to an explosion.
Also in that video, you will see those white flashes in different parts of the video. That would be indicating that there are other explosive materials in there that are actually exploding. We have smaller explosions occurring during the fire that leads up to a large explosion to the rather extremely large shock wave that has generated.
CURNOW: A shock wave, a blast radius that is being felt in Cyprus. I mean it's just extraordinary where this was heard and felt.
Let's just talk about the amounts. The government says that over 2000 tons -- 2,700 tons of ammonium nitrate. Now, I know you said there might be something else in there, was in this warehouse. I mean that is an extraordinary amount.
And to put it into perspective, we understand that the Oklahoma City bombing, the bomber there used two tons of ammonium nitrate and that destroyed one building. We are talking here about nearly 3,000 tons.
MAY: Right. The amount of explosives and the shockwave that was created was -- and you have to be careful here in this term, it is typical of what would be equivalent to a kiloton (ph) bomb, nuclear bomb going off as far as the explosive weight is concerned. Of course, there was no nuclear material that we know of involved in this. But the shockwave generated, the blast wave generated, is that equivalent to a small nuclear device.
CURNOW: Goodness me
Our thoughts and prayers with everybody in Beirut at the moment. It is hard to get your head around, isn't it?
Anthony May, thank you for your expertise. We really value it. Thank you very much, sir.
MAY: Thank you. CURNOW: Australia's prime minister is expressing deep regret over the
death of Australian citizens in the Beirut blast. Scott Morrison said in an interview, he is getting briefings on the explosion. He called it absolutely devastating and offered condolences to the many Australians of Lebanese descent.
Take a listen.
SCOTT MORRISON, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: Our embassy in Beirut has been impacted significantly. But I can report all our staff there are ok, had some cuts and some scratches in those sorts of things, but they will be sleeping -- people will be sleeping here to ensure that the facility is not compromised.
So they're doing a great there. And they'll be doing all they can. But our hearts really go out to our Lebanese-Australian community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CURNOW: And the U.S. embassy in Beirut tweeted this quote from the ambassador. "Having witnessed the horrific explosions at the port this evening, our heartfelt sympathies go out to the victims and their families. We mourn each loss from this terrible tragedy alongside the Lebanese people."
And the European Council president Charles Michel said on Twitter, "My thoughts are with the people of Lebanon and with the families of the victims of the tragic Beirut blast. The E.U. stands ready to provide assistance and support. Stay strong."
So joining me from Cambridge, Massachusetts is Rami Khouri. He's a senior fellow at Harvard University. Hi, sir. Thank you very much for joining us.
I know you have been speaking to family and friends back home. What have they been telling you?
RAMI KHOURI, SENIOR FELLOW, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Well, my main work is at the American University of Beirut where I have been for many years. And I have talking to people there most of the day.
And everybody is shocked and shell shocked, they're stunned by the extent of the explosion, the extent of the damage, the suffering that has been added now to an already big accumulation of suffering by the people of Lebanon and every dimension of their life. And they just don't know what to do.
They can't come to terms with this very easily, but they will, of course because they have been through disasters before. And this is really the culmination of a decade and a half or two decades of bad government and inept, corrupt, uncaring government that is so incompetent that it allows this kind of thing to happen.
CURNOW: So you're saying this in many ways equates with the fact that garbage hasn't been picked up. That it's the same sense of failure of government, even though, of course, this is on a much greater scale? KHOURI: It's on a much greater scale. It reflects the same kind of
disdain by which the Lebanese government seems to hold its own people. And this is how it is seen by so many Lebanese.
[01:39:57]
KHOURI: And that's why they have been out on the streets demonstrating since last October to not just change the prime minister or change the minister, but to remove the whole political oligarchic sectarian leadership that runs the country.
They have seen it to be a massive failure in every dimension of life. There is no electricity virtually. There is no jobs. The education system is corroding. The water is getting saltier.
Every dimension of life -- the currency has collapsed. And now this happens. So the people are basically -- most people are basically saying, get the entire political class out of there and let us rebuild our country.
CURNOW: What are the political consequences of this explosion? I mean we still don't know exactly what happened and why. The details will come out, no doubt, in the coming days and months. But in terms of the aftermath, it is not just a cleanup, but what are the political ramifications here?
KHOURI: My expectation is that the political aftershocks will be as great as the explosion itself. In the sense that this explosion was the culmination of decades of poor governance that has shattered almost every aspect of the lives of people in Lebanon. And all they want is to get these people who are running the country out of their lives.
CURNOW: Thank you very much, sir. Rami Khouri there.
KHOURI: Thank you.
CURNOW: Just ahead, many Americans are still ignoring coronavirus safety guidelines, heading to parties or large indoor gatherings. We will look at just how quickly and easily these types of events could cause the virus to spread.
You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CURNOW: Despite all evidence to the contrary in the United States, the President insists the pandemic is under control after criticizing his own task force leaders' assessment that it's entering a new phase and is widespread.
Donald Trump spoke bluntly about the rising death toll as Jim Acosta now reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: For President Trump each appearance in front of the cameras brings another departure from reality on the coronavirus. The latest example? His interview with Axios.
Asked about the soaring number of COVID-19 deaths in the U.S., the President says it is what it is.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think it's under control. I'll tell you what --
JONATHAN SWAN, AXIOS: How? A thousand Americans are dying a day.
TRUMP: They are dying. That's true. And you -- it is what it is. But that doesn't mean we aren't doing everything we can. It's under control as much as you can control it.
ACOSTA: The President tried to insist the data is on his side, but that argument fell flat, too.
SWAN: I'm talking about death as a proportion of population. That's where the U.S. is really bad. Much worse than South Korea --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: No because you have to go by the cases.
ACOSTA: In Mr. Trump's world, the U.S. is leading in its response.
TRUMP: Hold it. Hold it.
ACOSTA: Why does the U.S. have so many deaths? The U.S. has so many deaths compared to so many countries around the world.
[01:44:56]
TRUMP: Hold it. Hold it. We haven't been given enough -- I'm not talking about me. The Vice President, the task force have not been given the kind of credit. The United States has done an amazing job, a great job.
ACOSTA: But that's not true, which is why the President hammered the coordinator of his coronavirus task force Dr. Deborah Birx for acknowledging reality.
DR. DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE COORDINATOR: What we are seeing today is different from March and April. It is extraordinarily widespread.
ACOSTA: After slamming her comments as quote, "pathetic", a remark that left Birx feeling sung, Mr. Trump appeared to dialed back his criticism.
TRUMP: I think we're doing very well. I told Dr. Birx I think we're doing very well. She was in my office a little while ago. She's a person I have a lot of respect for. ACOSTA: The President is also taking some personal jabs at the late
civil rights icon John Lewis, who was laid to rest last week.
TRUMP: He chose not to come to my inauguration. He chose -- I never met John Lewis, actually, I don't believe.
SWAN: Do you find him impressive?
TRUMP: I can't say one way or the other. I find a lot of people impressive. Nobody has done more for black Americans than I have.
SWAN: Right. I understand.
TRUMP: He should have come. I think he made a big mistake.
ACOSTA: The President is reversing himself on the subject of voting by mail, at least in Florida, after blasting the practice in the past. Tweeting, "Whether you call it vote by mail or absentee voting, in Florida, the election system is safe and secure, tried and true. So in Florida, I encourage all to request a ballot and vote by mail.
CNN has learned Florida Republicans appealed to the President to back off. White House officials insist Mr. Trump is being consistent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will he admit now which is the fact that voting across the country by mail is safe and secure, and tried and true?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, the President has always said that absentee voting for a reason is different than mass mail out voting like what Nevada is seeking to do which leads to mass fraud.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's the same thing.
MCENANY: And also I'd refer you to the campaign on this.
ACOSTA: As for negotiations on a new coronavirus relief bill, White House officials said aides the President are eyeing various proposals for Mr. Trump to take executive action should both sides in Congress failed to reach an agreement by the end of the week.
Jim Acosta, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CURNOW: Well, the coronavirus is still running rampant in the U.S. but instead of following safety guidelines some people are choosing to attend large gatherings.
Brian Todd explains now why that could make things worse.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: New Jersey's governor is fed up. He's had to deal with repeated large gatherings in his state, including one of more than 700 people at a recent house party that took police more than five hours to breakup.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D-NJ): The alarms are going off. The only way to silence these alarms and get back to the process of moving forward is for everyone to take them seriously.
TODD: Governor Phil Murphy now rolling back the limit for indoor gatherings to 25 people. The exceptions he says: weddings, funerals, other memorial and religious services, political activities protected under the First Amendment,
MURPHY: We are not past this. Everyone who walks around, refusing to wear a mask or who hosts an indoor house party, or who overstuffs a boat is directly contributing to these increases. This has to stop and it has to stop now.
TODD: As the number of COVID-19 cases and deaths continues climbing across the country, many states are grappling with large public gatherings. Authorities in New York intercepting this party boat and making arrests after an alleged illegal party.
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): I mean it is just really reckless, rude, irresponsible and illegal.
TODD: Just how dangerous are large gatherings at this critical moment?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a group of like 50, 60 people just dancing on the road.
TODD: Dr. Jonathan Reiner of George Washington University points to a hot spot state where mass gatherings have been a problem.
DR. JONATHAN REINER, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Just about every county in Florida right now, if you have an event with 50 people, there's over a 90 percent likelihood that there will be a COVID positive person at that event. And that likelihood rises to almost 100 percent if you have an event with 100 people.
TODD: We asked Dr. Reiner if now is the time for an across the board, nationwide ban on large gatherings, at least temporarily. He said flat out -- yes.
DR. REINER: The reward for that is maybe opening schools in person in October, all right. Maybe having fans at some point in a football stadium this coming season, all right. Having kids go back to college in person.
[01:49:46]
TODD: Reiner says if gatherings are still allowed, people should limit the size, keep their distance, stay outdoors and wear masks and face shields if they can. Medical experts say, if directed to do so, Americans are capable of making those necessary sacrifices, that they made them earlier in the pandemic, and have done so throughout history.
DR. SEEMA YASMIN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: What really pains me is that this could have been a very different summer if we had a better lockdown, a longer lockdown earlier in the spring. If we had opened up much more gradually, then we could see potentially having small house parties.
TODD: Dr. Jonathan Reiner says a huge part of the problem with mass gatherings in the United States is that there is no unified national leadership on the subject. No directive from the White House or the federal government for all Americans to follow.
States, local governments, even individual businesses are left to enforce their own rules on gatherings and those rules go all over the place.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CURNOW: Still to come, a day of mourning in Lebanon after that deadly blast.
We'll have the latest on our top story for you in just a few moments.
Stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CURNOW: Welcome back.
I'm Robyn Curnow.
Recapping our top story. Lebanon is observing a national day of mourning after this powerful explosion ripped through the capital Beirut on Tuesday. Dozens of people were killed, thousands of others hurt. The blast went off near the port sending a huge shockwave through the city. It flipped cars, shattered glass and damaged buildings as far as 10 kilometers away.
As of right now, we don't know for sure what caused the explosion. One official blamed it on quote, "high explosive materials confiscated years ago" but didn't give any more details. The prime minister has announced an investigation, he says those responsible will pay.
Well, earlier, I spoke with Leila Molana-Allen, a correspondent for France 24. She was in Beirut when the blast happened. She still is there as you will see from this the interview and she described what she saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN, MIDDLE EAST CORRESPONDENT, FRANCE 24: So, my flat is about a kilometer away from the port. And just after 6:00 yesterday, we had heard that there was this small firework explosion, something happening down there. So I was starting to look into that.
And we then I heard this incredibly loud noise that sounded like some sort of aircraft or jet breaking the sound barrier. And we do get jets both from the Lebanese armed forces and Israeli jets in Beirut. But it seemed like it was flying incredibly low over the buildings.
So I jumped up to try and see if I could see that, and at that moment there was a blinding white flash, a huge noise and all the doors and windows were ripped off their hinges, glass flying across the flat. I threw myself into a corner and when I stood up the entire apartment was covered in debris and glass. I stumbled outside and found other people from the neighborhood doing exactly the same thing.
People very dazed, bloodied, multiple injuries from glass. I was injured myself; I had my foot cut open. But apart from my injury, I was very lucky. But many more serious injuries than that in the entire area around me. All the residential area was completely destroyed.
CURNOW: It sounds terrifying, and you paint a powerful picture for us. I know that with your foot cut, you try to go injured, you try to go to the hospital. Just tell us what that was like and what hospitals and doctors were trying to deal with.
[01:54:49]
MOLANA-ALLEN: I did, though I held off for quite a long time because hospitals really were desperate around here. Hundreds of hundreds of people turning up at hospital, the local hospital on the corner said by 9:00 they had 500 people and simply couldn't take anymore. Please don't come.
And of course, there were so many people with many more serious injuries than what I had. But those of us who didn't have life- threatening injuries simply got hold of first-aid equipment and tried to keep ourselves going until a later time when hospitals might have space.
Hospitals across Beirut completely crammed and of course, Beirut doesn't have an ambulance service. It just has the Lebanese Red Cross which is completely volunteer run, and they too were saying desperately, please don't call us unless you really do need an ambulance.
They set up triage and first aid stationed in downtown Beirut on two different sites of the port. I eventually in the early hours of the morning about 2:00 a.m. found a hospital outside Beirut that apparently wasn't too busy ones with those very urging cases had been dealt with. And I did get to the hospital and I foot stitched up and there were doctors and nurses there who had been working for eight hours continuously treating hundreds of cases.
They told me they were running very low, (INAUDIBLE) they've run out of something, not having tetanus shots left because so many debris injuries they had treated, so really they are struggling in the hospitals in Beirut last night and today.
CURNOW: You certainly seem to have had a lucky escape and you were very close, one kilometer from this blast. Particularly because we know that windows were blown out 10 kilometers away from the blast zone. It was heard in Cyprus. So it seems like you were pretty close. I know that we've been getting live pictures from Beirut this morning, it's early morning. People are waking up to the sheer devastation and, you know, it's difficult sometimes to get a sense of how big this is. But these pictures somehow showing us and as many people have tried to describe it it's a bit like a nuclear wasteland.
Just tell us what it is like.
MOLANA-ALLEN: It's incredibly eerie this morning. I haven't a bed and so I watched the sunrise and from where I'm sitting right over there, I can see the port, I can see the cranes which are still standing and birds flying over them very peacefully.
And just below that, complete devastation. The entire port just three percent of that seaport is left. Lebanon's only fully functioning port and all the streets coming up because one of the problems is that there's just a highway separating that port in a very deeply residential area and very busy area full of bars and cafes.
The downtown areas that many of us are used to seeing everyday completely ripped apart, buildings with their facades hanging off and parts of the road just completely ripped up, tarmac sitting on the side of the street, just devastation and debris everywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CURNOW: Our thanks there, Leila Molana-Allen of France 24 for sharing her experiences with us.
I'm Robyn Curnow. Thanks so much for watching. I'll be back same time, same place tomorrow.
You're watching CNN. More on that story continues.
[01:57:41]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
